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Eldar utterly irrelevant vs ASM spam
Fortune
This has been the plague for the past week for me.
BO for SM:
Servitor
Chapel Barracks
ASM
ASM (Deep Strike)
Req
Req
ASM
Req
Power
Power
Arsenal
Power Sword
ASM (deep strike)
ASM (deep strike)
T2 (because he blew up your shield gens)
T3 (see above)
Vehicle Damage 1
Vehicle Damage 2
Vehicle Damage 3
Dreadnought (deep strike)
Add LPs on points with double doctrine (tougher&more damage + Reinforce and Healing)
MAYBE "Loner" so a single Land Speeder can bash your eco, but that is largely just icing on the cake.
Some people use the "Scouts do damage out of stealth" but again this is largely an annoyance without any real value.
Elites:
Either Gabriel (deep strike healing for teh lulz and FREE REINFORCE.) + Venerable Dreadnought (because none of these people have him at level 8 because they win before they get any EXP for him) + Chaplain for healing and shields
Or Kill Team, Chaplain and Ven Dread.
I've tried:
Triple Dire with shield / grenade doctrines, Striking Scorpions for early presence to hopefully fight back the ASM spam and gank his shield gen, but this only works against bad players.
2x Banshee with very fast soul shrine to have Leap in first engagement, this produced zero results because the ASM can jump away when the fight looks bad, and they can pop a banner further away from combat meaning you have to now get it.
The end result is always the same. A tough early game where if I invest in infantry he invests in eco and wins the mid-game due to inflicting losses with 2x ASM Leaps, followed by an inevitable 10 minute loss because he's blowing up my shield gens and I have nothing to counter it.
Thoughts?
Comments
Fortune
Bump.
The only thing I can think of is Ronahn at this point, with extremely harassy, cheesy play, into a fast T2 for Wraithguard spam.
But again, this would rely on my opponent to not harass / blow up one of my natural resource points with 2 ASM swords, which utterly rip those things apart in the early game.
Bersercker
Fast t2(as in i built two power generators early and didn't spend power on infantry or upgrades) with falcons worked for me in a few games agaisnt such a BO but i'm almost certain SM players were bad. I've basically stalled with dire avenger spam with stealth doctrine until macha and constantly tried to harass the enemy points with lone squads. Would have probably not worked if the enemy players spent less time chaising my squads around the map and just killed my economy & generators asap. Fast landspeeder with multi melta also makes short work of falcons.
Falcons are surprisingly strong against asm blobs though.
Fortune
That they are, but you're looking at 190+140+250 power for your first Falcon..
ASM award massive eco advantage and almost no drain if used with Banner properly, so you have to depend on stages to tick so your income is boosted, and as you said Land Speeders absolutely troll Falcons, especially with the Loner doctrine.
A Loner Land Speeder can kill 2-3 Tankbusta squads and a listening post in a single engagement and still leave alive, or leave early if the fight turns against it while inflicting stupid amounts of casualties.
Fortune
@Bersercker Also, ASM with Swords stun vehicles when they jump, 2-3 ASM can keep the Falcon permastunned until it is dead. I do think Falcons would be a natural counter, but they come out too late.
Bersercker
Yeah, that too. I'm pretty sure scout blind grenades can also stun a falcon from stealth for a followup asm stunlock. They cant jump if its on impassable terrain though, like on that map with bridges.
Asm could use treatment with a nerfbat ofc.
Fortune
A bat?
Try a sledge hammer.
LongShot
There is no way to defeat asm in early game( at least before you get scorpions)
All what you actually can - dodge every "fair" fight and play very defensively. You dont need 3 avengers in this matchup, 2 enough - better to get banshee squad or even 2. When you will get scorpions, you can counter attack. Very simple tactic - banshees attack, slow and silence ASM, and your avengers use grenades instantly into them. Scorpions stronger than deathwatch, and they are pretty good in melee even against asm. If you killed deathwatch - you can get both shield generators without any problems.
But it is still insane matchup, and you Must play much better than your opponent just for survive on t1, or you will lose. You have no ways to defeat good SM in t1 game - you should waiting for his mistakes on t2. And if he will not doing this, you will lose.
redScare
As SM player, that's basically what I do in ALL matchups (without so many vehicles upgrades, I'm not that good to have all that surplus). Also, if I see Macha/Weirdboy in the line-up before match starts, I take the 1st health upgrade before the power swords to avoid squad wipes.
The VenDread doctrine needs rebalance. Same with swords. And tacts need some love. Then we will have more interesting BOs, but right now it's basically the most viable BO SM have. Vanilla ASM are actually fine, Eldar were crushing them with 3xDA before ppl started using the Assault Leap doctrine.
However, the moment you have 2xBanshees + Scorpions you actually have the upper hand. Cos SM either fields killteam (which scorpions nullify) or wait for another elite and Eldar has a bigger window of opportunity. That's the moment when you should hit SM eco HARD, as Scorpions deal some true damage and kill LPs and gens with ease.
Also, not that Eldar lacks cheese
A well timed Banshee charge (upgraded charge) is devastating.
HohesHaus
And you lost ?! Can't believe that you loose with that strat. I've played several times with with strategy against ASM Spamm, Sniper Scout spamm and Tac Spamm. I've beaten them every time
Here's what you do
It's important that you don't use your banshees. Retreat to your Listening post if necessary to save your Banshees. It's totally ok if you can just kill the Deathwatchteam with one attack. Better get back for a second attack with all Banshees, than to waste your Banshees
Galahad2017
what happens when you pick that point and you have 3 bonesingers and he has 2-3 squads there instead. sounds like an all-in strategy to me, which while it could work doesn't seem like a balanced strategy.
it's a one way build with no options for actual battle conditions. but theoretically (and I also noted you seem to have some doctrines not mentioned in the build) it's strong.
HohesHaus
Then you have bad luck. Your first bonesinger sees if an enemy Worker is there or slugga or what ever. If so, run away and port the other bone singers to another point.
The first attack will come round about 1:45. In this time you should have your listening post and your first banshee right up.
Doctrins are "Stronger Listening post" + all Banshee Doctrins. I prefer "Invernurable while dash" and "Blinding attack"
You don't need to adopt to any battle conditions. If you have your point build up, what shall he do? Chopping onto the Power Point with his 3 slugass or his 2 ASM, or 3 Tacs? Until the Power is 50% you have your banshees. The only thing he can get you with is, capping the other points. But you can still hold out and suprise him with the Banshee attack.
It's a bit of gambling in it for sure. If you miss the dash, or if your banshees are getting stuck, or you loose a banshee without killing units, you're screwed. But after a few times you get the hang of the strat.
Edit: You don't wait for all 3 bonesinger until they're ready. You take your 1st port over, take your second port over, take your 3rd port over. The first is building the baracks while he is still standing in the capping circle, the 2nd builds the listening post which is allready capped until then and the 3rd is building the Webway
Today or tomorrow I will upload a replay to show you how it works. I have a 3v3 allready, but I think that isn't in any interest for you.
Galahad2017
if you upload a replay i'll take a look at it - just don't put it on a site that requires me to sign up or log in to download it.
i prefer to go with a DA squad, bonesinger, DA squad, and possibly a third DA squad before bringing in T1.5 Units. it will be interesting to see another perspective.
HohesHaus
3x DA's is ground solid. I used it quite often, harder to play, but ground solid
FakeSweden
l Agree with @HohesHaus
lf you have a good micro management, and move your DA away from the oversized frogs and a fighting inside a webway influence, you can take them down no problem or at least deal enough dmg to make them flee.
Kharneth
@HohesHaus To be clear, you don't summon any dire avengers? You don't have a single offensive unit on the field until the Banshees, which come out probably a little bit after the LP is made, correct?
I've started replacing my initial Dire Avengers with builders and found that making more builders at the beginning makes it easier to capture bases, etc. But I usually build the DA so I have something to defend/assault with. Aren't banshees a little mediocre without some fire support? You're talking like 3 or 4 banshee squads with the scorpions and no ranged support right?
HohesHaus
That is correct. This tactic is a bit "All or nothing". If you loose a squad, do ++heresy redacted++ with the Dash or something else goes wrong you're done. But as far as I have seen it, Banshees are the only units, which have squad wipe potential.
Yesterday I failed with this tactic in a 2v2, because I accidentialy hit Q twice. It seems that this is a "smart key". If you hit it twice the banshees dash towards the nearest unit. That lead to, that my banshees attack 3 different Dire Avenger, resulting in too less damage and my Banshees got wrecked.
It is utterly important to hit at least 1 squad with all 3 Banshees to wipe it out of the game. Then you have a chance, otherwise you get killed.
I said I will upload a replay. But I will wait for monday, since monday will be patch day. Who knows if this tactic is doable anymore, and you can't watch replays with a different version number.
Kharneth
@HohesHaus Before I go home and try this out, answer me one thing. Is this a general strategy or a specific counter to ASM? If I go home and try this out against my first enemy will it be a bad idea?
Also, Monday is not a balance patch. They won't be changing any units on Monday, they'll be messing with more generic things such as connectivity and bugs.
HohesHaus
It counters everything so far I've seen. ASM with Dash can be a problem because they can inflict heavy damage. But you can wait until he attacks you, or you cloak yourself.
I would recommend to try it out first vs. AI to get the hang of it. You can leave out the Wewaygate and build a Soul Shrine as your 3rd building, to get the quick strike more earlier. I want to stress out that you can only go on the hunt when you have 3 Banshees. Everything before that is just defensive play!
Kharneth
Good to know that I need to wait around until I have 3 banshee squads. I also love the fact that I need to focus all the banshees on a single unit because that's WAY easier to accomplish then trying to tie up 3 shooty units. I'll focus on the nasty shooters first.
I'm not going to try it out on AI. AI doesn't help me prepare in the least. I could give them a 10min head start and I'll still beat them in my sleep. I need practice against players.
HohesHaus
Here is your replay. I know I lost, I have made the wrong decision not to go for his ressources. But you can see how powerfull this BO is if played correct.
https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=320138
Elkantar1981
this opener helped me to defeat early asm spam:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DawnOfWarIII/comments/69dnce/math_on_openings_and_phase_1_squad_loss/
HohesHaus
Glad that I could help