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Striking Scorpions
3 years ago
MetalSlime
Any ideas on dealing with these pre-Weirdboy? They come out so fast, and just demolish pretty much any squad. I have tried Stormboyz, but they ripped apart between the Scorps and Dire Avengers, even if they take a few enemies out via suicide, it just isn't enough.
I am not convinced the Scorpions are OP, but they are tough to deal with early on, and I would love some suggestions.
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MetalSlime
Just an addendum, I am playing 1v1s.
Sambino
Yes they wreck infantry. I jump to vehicles' asap when facing scorpions.
As for early game.... just try to avoid them i guess.
TheGodOfCakes
Aye, a good idea is to avoid them until you have vehicles and/or a 3+ points elite out (Gorgutz/Zapnogging). Stikk bombs seem to deal with them quite well though. And are you sure you're using your Stormboyz effectively if they can't take them? A tactic I like to use to counter them, is Stormboyz and Shoota boyz with stikk bombs, with some normal boyz of course. Have a normal unit of boyz tie up the scorpions, which will usually force the Eldar player to use their jump. Then you jump on them with your Stormboyz. After the impact, use the kamikaze boy to keep the scorpions down. When they get up again; stikk bombs. That is usually enough so that they aren't a threat anymore. The rest of your slugga boyz go and tie up the ranged Eldar. For this you need about 1600 Req on units (3 Sluggas and 2 Shootas(you can of course just add more)) and the Stormboyz. So it's easy to get out early and can win you some good fights.
A thing I've realized about the Orks, is that they have a lot of early game crown control. Sluggas and Shootas with scrap, Stormboyz, Gorgutz, Zapnogging. Even trukks with their katapult seats. So use that strength to your advantage!
MetalSlime
What's the best way to avoid them but not lose all cap points? The combo of them and Bonesingers running around is the real trick. The Scorpions jump and wreck LPs and generators, then Bonesingers and webways teleport in to clean up.
Killyox
and have gretchins so they don't catch you from stealth with your pants down.
MetalSlime
We needz more Gretchin!
kickinleg
You deal with them in the same way you deal with eldar early game: you play very defensive and turtle until your trukks are out. ^^
Depending on the build, you can get trukks out at about the time the scorpions hit the field and push with 1 trukk, 3 boyz and rocketboyz, this usually works decently well for me. Still, I think it might be even better to w8 for weirdboy, which means you'll need to play defensive even longer, which means they can really start profiting from having the whole map capped because of their insanely strong early game.
good thing to do is having some gretchins out on the map. Really, just build 1-2 additional squads and position them around the map and see how much it helps (against the scorpions and eldar in general).
Killyox
Btw, if you manage to take off their shield, then kommando takes them out in 2 shots
TheDukeofDirty
Kommando shots do 200 damage to every unit they touch, the shields have nothing to do with it
Noha
You saying kommando ignores shield?
Killyox
I think you misread what I wrote.
I say, that if you take Scorpions' shield, they die in 2 shots from kommando.
Eldar units have higher shield value than health value. Once it's down they get blased to smithereens.
kickinleg
until commando is out (6 mins), eldar has complete map-control and thanks to the true dmg crit striking scoprions already taken out a shield gen, giving them enough req to easily keep map-control. ^^
The only way I win against eldar early is playing super duper defensive (deffing 1 node, if I'm very lucky, I can somehow get a 2nd node before 4 mins) and somehow get a lucky genbash with the rocketboyz. I think you need the elite on 4 mins, but you still can't use rocketboyz in a straight-up fight, since they will just get eaten. Basically, I win if the eldar is bad. -.-°
Eldar v ork is just completely and utterly broken. Any eldar that plays on a even slightly similar level to the ork shouldn't loose this MU ever (if he abuses the broken stuff like the webway doctrine).
Now, I'm not saying ork doesn't have a chance in the late-game, but until then, you're already completely F'd.
Killyox
I had commando out by 3m 30s :P
Will double check replay to see exactly when he was dropped.
kickinleg
well, then you killed shield gens or had an elite point gen, both should never happen this early against a decent eldar.
Jazz_Sandwich
This is just untrue. Proper trukk usage, while sometimes difficult to pull off, is incredibly powerful. Lootas with scrap have ridiculous dps and their slow never stops being useful.
Here's an example of an ork player greatly outplaying an eldar player, webway doctrine nonsense notwithstanding
kickinleg
Yepp, thats because the other player is completely outclassed by koof. Koof played this perfectly and I mean absolutely perfectly and the eldar played way too passive against koofs early heavily defensive style (like I've said, ork stayed on 1-2 nodes and 1 gen until after 4 mins and this is the time where eldar should basically win the game), he just massed req-gens and applied no pressure at all, which is basically the worst thing you can do against quick trukks. Against trukks, you need to either kill a shield gen as soon as possible (he could've easily poked the shield gen before trukks where out), or you need to cap the map and start putting LP's there. There's no reason at all for the eldar to mass 3 req-gens before minute 4 - that's just greedy and he got punished. Also, he got completely outmicroed in the fight by koof, I mean, koof destroyed him with his excellent trukk-micro.
Also, the map is definitely the one where orks isn't as heavily disadvantaged against eldar, since it's not as easy to backstab the shield-gens and totally outrun the ork. On the other two maps, both eldar and SM just wreck ork with their mobility. And if you think trukks give the ork mobility, you haven't played vehicles in a relic game. ^^
HohesHaus
Awesome Trukk play there. I think they need a 10 second CD before they can throw a second pair of boyz.
kickinleg
This is what koof recently posted himself about another replay he uploaded against an eldar. The name he gave the replay was "The Closest You Can Get to Beating Eldar ATM"
"Just too OP... 30 minute game, hard counter his unit comp, still cant push out of my base... highlights are fullhealth stormboyz losing a fight to a turret (gg striking scorpion) and mass recall and eldritch storm being also OP alongside everything else about the race"
so... there ya go. ^^
YbuBaKa
@Kickinleg, you are right. Trukk BO is very vulnerable to early push from Eldar with Scorpions. No chance to defend both shield generators is most cases.
And SM are even worse, because their line units (ASM) are such pain as the Eldar's elite units (Scorpions). So I think MU with Eldar is little bit easier for Ork, than with SM. ESPECIALLY when your opponent abuses OP land speeders and OP ASM doctrine.
kickinleg
SM is way better MU for ork, because you can at least take a more forward node and maybe build an LP before double ASM hit at roughly the 2-minute mark. Against Eldar, bonsingers block your 1-2 closest nodes and you have NO chance of holding a more forward node, since DA-spam hits so early. LP's are also useless, they can just rotate the DA's and let them reg their shields at an insane rate and kill your LP without taking ANY permanent dmg whatsoever. Also, striking scorpions with true strike take down your shield gens earlier than ASM's with power swords are out. Also, your boyz can at least get in range of the ASM's, since they are melee as well. Against DA-spam, you can basically walk forward to absorb a bit of dmg and then move back, just so your production buildings can stay alive until you have a Loota Squad. With the LS, you can defend 1 point and your buildings, but then the Eldar rotates around starting to DMG shield gens and any node you might have wanted to sneak gets decapped.
SM can abuse ASM's mobility and later on power-swords, thats true, but Eldar can abuse bonesingers, webway-mobility, insane shield-regen, striking scorpions, relocating buildings you can never kill off etc. It's a nightmare. Also, I wouldn't care that much about balance that early in the game and just suck it up and have fun, but you're forced into such a defensive and passive playstyle as ork that I really don't enjoy playing, independent of whether I win or loose (I really don't care about that, especially without a ladder and this early in the game, I just wanna familiarize myself with the game and test out BO's and stuff), but any non-super defensive build just won't ever work against eldar. Also, many SM's don't run a 2-point elite, which at least gives me a bit moer breathing room as ork in the very early stages of the game which allows me to be a bit more creative and doesn't force me to get out rocketboyz 100% of the time, cuz I'll just flatout loose if I don't get them.