How to beat Striking Scorpions + Banshee rush?

Brentino24

I've come up against this twice now, and honestly I think their ability to be invisible and fast, whilst slowing you down and wiping entire squads out with one move is completely broken and frankly, dumb.

With that said... Has anyone found a way to counter this as SM?

Kharneth

Seeing as the best counter to a melee unit is generally a melee unit of your own and the fact that ASM seem to be the SM meta I'd wager that using some ASM would be the way to go.

Additionally, flamers decimate eldar, so I'd say using ASM supported with a flamer or two would be viable. If they're using a 2pt elite you're going to need to either use an elite of your own or you're going to need to overwhelm them with numbers.

Purely theoretical, I'd counter that combo with 2 ASM units and the Kill Team with the flamer. You will want to assault them, though, so you'll need to bait them out of stealth or wait until they attack your generator.

redScare

Killteam is useless once meleed. And if they go full shees doctrines and have stealth... flamers are useless too. Some people recommend sniper plus Overwatch doctrine and then baiting Scorpions when the snipers have full charges. But sounds like theory-crafting to me, specially if the enemy is not stupid and sees the doctrine in your roster selection

Currently their cheese is better than ours, IMHO.

tritol

I use listening post doctrines and if you are lucky enough and survive that charge from banshees with at least 1 unit you can just run around and reinforce and wait for some other unit to kill them, well ofc it works only near listening post

Kharneth

Oh! I have an idea.

Step 1) Make friends with one of those xenos scum.

Step 2) Stop playing 1v1.

Scorpions are the hard counter to Scorpions, amirite?

Galahad2017

@Brentino24 said:
I've come up against this twice now, and honestly I think their ability to be invisible and fast, whilst slowing you down and wiping entire squads out with one move is completely broken and frankly, dumb.

With that said... Has anyone found a way to counter this as SM?

ASMs are pretty much the only way to counter that - get landspeeder and dreadnoughts as your vehicles if they maintain melee infantry into tier2. drop pods and banner i heard are the key. HBD in key heavy cover will help you as well. try to assault multiple capture points and use your ASM doctrines, i heard they give SM players the edge.

Good luck.

Skemooo

there is a way but you need atleast 2-3 scouts.. and overwatch doctrine.. usually when scorpions hit the field they rekt everything and run straight to the shield gen to critical strike it in 10 secs.. so your goal is to get the mine upgrade for scouts and put atleast 2 snipers on overwatch in the path ahead of shield gen right ontop of mines..
mines do about 800 damage.. overwatch 10 stack does about 700-900 damage scorpions have a 1200 shield. one shield is broken they are squishy..

the down side though is scouts get only 3 mines and they dont recharge and after each plant it has a cooldown of 30 secs before you can plant another.. so you have to plan this carefully.. if you can pull this off with one scout while you battle front lines with ASM and tacs it works..

but then agian its a lot of work just counter a A move.. which is broken

HohesHaus

Jump around with your ASM to let the Banshees waste their dash and counter heavy with mass landspeeder. I playing main Eldar with solo banshee. Gabriel is also an answer, does a lot of difficulty to the shees. Striking scorpions isn't that hard to counter. Build your ASM, build Tac flamer keep him in the background and as soon as the Scorpions are in meele, burn the heretic.

redScare

@HohesHaus said:
Jump around with your ASM to let the Banshees waste their dash and counter heavy with mass landspeeder. I playing main Eldar with solo banshee. Gabriel is also an answer, does a lot of difficulty to the shees. Striking scorpions isn't that hard to counter. Build your ASM, build Tac flamer keep him in the background and as soon as the Scorpions are in meele, burn the heretic.

In 1vs1 you get wrecked way before you can have an answer for Scorpions. ASM+flamer means early armory and power gens, which means you won't have much more than 3 squads when they come knocking with a ton of DAs (or fewer and some shees in the mix). They are too good for 2 points. Even Orks with stormboyz have a HARD time. SM is even worse, as killteam is irrelevant vs Scorpions.

Vodacce

Stun grenade from scouts + ASM work very well.

HohesHaus

@redScare said:

@HohesHaus said:
Jump around with your ASM to let the Banshees waste their dash and counter heavy with mass landspeeder. I playing main Eldar with solo banshee. Gabriel is also an answer, does a lot of difficulty to the shees. Striking scorpions isn't that hard to counter. Build your ASM, build Tac flamer keep him in the background and as soon as the Scorpions are in meele, burn the heretic.

In 1vs1 you get wrecked way before you can have an answer for Scorpions. ASM+flamer means early armory and power gens, which means you won't have much more than 3 squads when they come knocking with a ton of DAs (or fewer and some shees in the mix). They are too good for 2 points. Even Orks with stormboyz have a HARD time. SM is even worse, as killteam is irrelevant vs Scorpions.

Scorpions hit the field around minute 3 or 4 I suppose. You could build a Weaponary first and get TAC/ASM. Stall a bit and get scouts. IF he is going on Banshee mass. He is totaly vurneable until minute 4. After that you have problems.

Flamer is a "I kill Eldar in masses" Weapon. There is no other weapon in the game, that kills Eldar in early game in that masses. If he just blobbs ONCE, and you hit with the flamer, his whole army is gone. You can pick out squads also with Scout Grenade. You can lure his scorpions into a trap. Give them the ASM as a juicy target. Don't move, throw the grenade, flame them. Then jump with the ASM, but not into the middle, more behind the scorpions so that they don't spread so far as they fly around

FakeSweden

As an Eldar player l agree with @Vodacce
Stun Grenades + ASM jumps + Flamers, are the best bet, and the one that l despise, if a good SM player makes the combo. lt will keep Banshees and Scorpions perma stunned, and Eldars don't like Fire! Holy ++heresy redacted++! lf l ever see flamethrowers on the field, those fuckers are getting focused!

Galahad2017

@FakeSweden said:
As an Eldar player l agree with @Vodacce
Stun Grenades + ASM jumps + Flamers, are the best bet, and the one that l despise, if a good SM player makes the combo. lt will keep Banshees and Scorpions perma stunned, and Eldars don't like Fire! Holy ++heresy redacted++! lf l ever see flamethrowers on the field, those fuckers are getting focused!

As a future Harlequinn Eldar player i have to agree this has been the hardest early game counter to early banshees. even if you take their shield generator if you don't madly waste your squads defending it - wait until you have a sizable force - it's insta melt banshees with those flamers. and once Angelos is in play forget about it it's all uphill from there.

TheSaltKing

@FakeSweden said:
As an Eldar player l agree with @Vodacce
Stun Grenades + ASM jumps + Flamers, are the best bet, and the one that l despise, if a good SM player makes the combo. lt will keep Banshees and Scorpions perma stunned, and Eldars don't like Fire! Holy ++heresy redacted++! lf l ever see flamethrowers on the field, those fuckers are getting focused!

I like to add dropping the Battle Standard which adds another stun plus shield. Too often (myself included) new players don't use the battle standard and lose winnable fights. The shield it grants will always force a retreat if a player is smart and can turn the tides of even some of the more dire looking situations. I now always rock the battle-standard doctrine because I realized how critical it is especially in 3v3s where you can find yourself out numbered often and would need time to hold the enemy long enough for help to arrive.

Sero

Angelos is the key to beating the banshee+scorpion mob imo. You just chain knockdowns from 2-3 ASM squads, keep them on the ground while you hit them, then Angelos with this leap+bounce back any grenades with his W. You just gotta hope the Eldar player is stupid enough to hang out and get knocked down over and over without retreating.

redScare

@HohesHaus said:

@redScare said:

@HohesHaus said:
Jump around with your ASM to let the Banshees waste their dash and counter heavy with mass landspeeder. I playing main Eldar with solo banshee. Gabriel is also an answer, does a lot of difficulty to the shees. Striking scorpions isn't that hard to counter. Build your ASM, build Tac flamer keep him in the background and as soon as the Scorpions are in meele, burn the heretic.

In 1vs1 you get wrecked way before you can have an answer for Scorpions. ASM+flamer means early armory and power gens, which means you won't have much more than 3 squads when they come knocking with a ton of DAs (or fewer and some shees in the mix). They are too good for 2 points. Even Orks with stormboyz have a HARD time. SM is even worse, as killteam is irrelevant vs Scorpions.

Scorpions hit the field around minute 3 or 4 I suppose. You could build a Weaponary first and get TAC/ASM. Stall a bit and get scouts. IF he is going on Banshee mass. He is totaly vurneable until minute 4. After that you have problems.

Flamer is a "I kill Eldar in masses" Weapon. There is no other weapon in the game, that kills Eldar in early game in that masses. If he just blobbs ONCE, and you hit with the flamer, his whole army is gone. You can pick out squads also with Scout Grenade. You can lure his scorpions into a trap. Give them the ASM as a juicy target. Don't move, throw the grenade, flame them. Then jump with the ASM, but not into the middle, more behind the scorpions so that they don't spread so far as they fly around

I'll try to give it a try but... barracks + scouts + asm + tacts + armory + flamer? Are we still talking about the 4-6 minute mark? Can that really be pulled off? Could you elaborate a bit on the BO to get that ready at 4:30 or so? Cos the issue is that at the 4min mark the Scorpions are going to try to kill your initial army and/or go for a shield generator.

HohesHaus

• 2 Worker
• Armory
• 2x Tac
• Scout

I recomment: Slowing flamer and faster running tacs, and ASM dash for later

If he goes 2x Dire Avengers first, you are in the advantage. Maybe you can flame his DAs ?

As soon as he has 3x Banshees and scorpions, it starts to get difficult. Now you have to be in a constant watch. Take at least 2 Workers with your army. One inside your blobb or a bit ahead, and with one you scout in before hand where you wanna go. Check EVERY cloud you're passing. It's no problem if your worker runs into the invisibel Banshees and gets shred, that's what he is there for.

What you DON't want to see is running around the corner or standing around, and suddenly a wild banshee dashes into your marines. Then your canned meat.

3x Banshees with dash and Scorpions is the most dangerous thing Eldar can field, but after that their other Tiers are just mediocre.

Jonah Orion can punish them hard with Lighnig. Gabriel is good as well. The deathwatch team is very difficult, but can be usefull because of his Grenade. But count with that the deathwatch team will get focused.

Use your scouts for a bail off. As soon as he is in melee, drop the grenade on the banshees and run for your life.

You can build 2x HB later, then he will surely focus on them. But don't let them blobb. Place one behind the other so that the back one supports the front one.

It's very difficult to be honest to beat that BO for an SM

redScare

@HohesHaus Sounds hard as hell, but I'll give it a try. They're going to nerf ASM and buff Tacts in the balance patch, so I can just as well start getting used to fielding them already

TibblesEviLCat

how do u know?

redScare

@TibblesEviLCat said:
how do u know?

The "buff tacts" part was stated in the community update on May 4th. The ASM nerf is just a guess, they would do well to reduce the available amount of mobile true damage in T1, like ASM and Scorpions (dark reapers are not big offenders as they´re setup teams and their DPS is actually fine and not off-the-charts).

HohesHaus

I guess we will face a Tac Spamm in next patch and ASM will be utterly useless

Proenca

@Brentino24 said:
I've come up against this twice now, and honestly I think their ability to be invisible and fast, whilst slowing you down and wiping entire squads out with one move is completely broken and frankly, dumb.

With that said... Has anyone found a way to counter this as SM?

Ofc it comes up to skill even tough eldar being currently the strongest race in the game, your only chance and the best one really is take an elite to serve as a meatshield deathwatch are good for that, orion dies way to fast and he is just 1 model but hes good aswell.
Take scouts and rush ASM yourself since thats the best way to counter Striking scorpions it wont make it much easier for you but its the best i can come up with.
Since Striking scorpions i must say they are really really strong.

Olteonz

Stun grenades, legit best ability in the game.

Kharneth

People say Kill Team isn't useful against Eldar/Scorpions, but I find if you play ASM heavy, like I do, Kill Team is very useful as supporting fire and the flamer is useful against Scorpions who will usually be tied in with ASMs.

HohesHaus

Your best way to defend yourself against Scorpions is the cheapest unit you have. Scouts and Workers

Galahad2017

@Sero said:
Angelos is the key to beating the banshee+scorpion mob imo. You just chain knockdowns from 2-3 ASM squads, keep them on the ground while you hit them, then Angelos with this leap+bounce back any grenades with his W. You just gotta hope the Eldar player is stupid enough to hang out and get knocked down over and over without retreating.

as someone who runs banshees/scorpions often - Angelos is a big challenge. he comes into play before your 5pt elites that will toast him, and you can't really melee him. - and with a flamethrower TSM he wins every single time. add ASMs and it's over.

i think the only thing you can do as eldar is avoid Angelos until you get your 2nd elite eldar unit. possibly tech up and get your wraithguards into play with rift doctrine since he has normal armour.

Against SM it's probably wise to go with Macha or Rohann as a 2nd elite or even your first as they can take it to Angelos.

HohesHaus

@Galahad2017 said:

@Sero said:
Angelos is the key to beating the banshee+scorpion mob imo. You just chain knockdowns from 2-3 ASM squads, keep them on the ground while you hit them, then Angelos with this leap+bounce back any grenades with his W. You just gotta hope the Eldar player is stupid enough to hang out and get knocked down over and over without retreating.

as someone who runs banshees/scorpions often - Angelos is a big challenge. he comes into play before your 5pt elites that will toast him, and you can't really melee him. - and with a flamethrower TSM he wins every single time. add ASMs and it's over.

i think the only thing you can do as eldar is avoid Angelos until you get your 2nd elite eldar unit. possibly tech up and get your wraithguards into play with rift doctrine since he has normal armour.

Against SM it's probably wise to go with Macha or Rohann as a 2nd elite or even your first as they can take it to Angelos.

In my opinion Rohan is the weakest Hero of all times. I find him extremly useless. Macha is best for dealing with Angelos. Just stasis him. 15 Seconds are enough to beat a SM army with Banshees and Scorpions

Galahad2017

@HohesHaus said:

@Galahad2017 said:

@Sero said:
Angelos is the key to beating the banshee+scorpion mob imo. You just chain knockdowns from 2-3 ASM squads, keep them on the ground while you hit them, then Angelos with this leap+bounce back any grenades with his W. You just gotta hope the Eldar player is stupid enough to hang out and get knocked down over and over without retreating.

as someone who runs banshees/scorpions often - Angelos is a big challenge. he comes into play before your 5pt elites that will toast him, and you can't really melee him. - and with a flamethrower TSM he wins every single time. add ASMs and it's over.

i think the only thing you can do as eldar is avoid Angelos until you get your 2nd elite eldar unit. possibly tech up and get your wraithguards into play with rift doctrine since he has normal armour.

Against SM it's probably wise to go with Macha or Rohann as a 2nd elite or even your first as they can take it to Angelos.

In my opinion Rohan is the weakest Hero of all times. I find him extremly useless. Macha is best for dealing with Angelos. Just stasis him. 15 Seconds are enough to beat a SM army with Banshees and Scorpions

Rohann is good. One of his doctrines grants free sensor beacon which is useful for spotting stealth units, add 2 ranger units to him and he will utterly destroy any sort DR/loota/HBD offensive that comes at you - as long as you don't go too ranger heavy. if you are skillful you can stagger rangers with his other doctrine that allows rangers to teleport to stealth cover and kite as well. He stuns vehicles and can interrupt elite 9pt walkers abilities with it. I think you'll find the most useless heroes are actually very decent once you learn their strengths - i felt this way about Warp Spiders until I realized I wasn't playing them in a way that the game permits, just the way I thought they should be.

Macha is good - but if you are banshee heavy Angelos again can counter you until you get tier2 units or perhaps a few DA/DR squads supporting your banshees.

ScottFire4

Jonah Orion + Scout squad, (maybe an ASM squad for good measure too) will kill Banshees + SS all day. When the Banshees/SS charge Jonah (or you run Jonah at them) use Jonah's 'blind' ability/or scout stun grenade. Immediately cast Stonewall, and use Jonah's lightning while they're trapped inside for instant good damage.. Stonewall should still be up, at which point you jump the ASM squad in for their knockdown stun, and then after that either use the Scouts stun grenade or Jonah's blind (whichever you didn't use before). They will be well and truly wiped/badly damaged by this point.. if they aren't, then escape after using the last stun option having hopefully done at least good damage.

If you're only using Jonah + scouts, use Jonah's blind first, then just get Jonah's lightning off in the stonewall and use your scouts stun grenade to quickly escape. You've just wiped a bunch of his models hopefully, and cost him some serious resources. Hopefully will also cause your opponent to be more cautious using his Banshees and SS, giving you an opportunity to counter attack elsewhere.

EDIT: Always pays to bring along a worker to counter their stealth too.

redScare

@ScottFire4 said:
Jonah Orion + Scout squad, (maybe an ASM squad for good measure too) will kill Banshees + SS all day. When the Banshees/SS charge Jonah (or you run Jonah at them) use Jonah's 'blind' ability/or scout stun grenade. Immediately cast Stonewall, and use Jonah's lightning while they're trapped inside for instant good damage.. Stonewall should still be up, at which point you jump the ASM squad in for their knockdown stun, and then after that either use the Scouts stun grenade or Jonah's blind (whichever you didn't use before). They will be well and truly wiped/badly damaged by this point.. if they aren't, then escape after using the last stun option having hopefully done at least good damage.

If you're only using Jonah + scouts, use Jonah's blind first, then just get Jonah's lightning off in the stonewall and use your scouts stun grenade to quickly escape. You've just wiped a bunch of his models hopefully, and cost him some serious resources. Hopefully will also cause your opponent to be more cautious using his Banshees and SS, giving you an opportunity to counter attack elsewhere.

EDIT: Always pays to bring along a worker to counter their stealth too.

I´ve been doing some variation of this. It kinda works. Some times. But all that micro to counter a-move from eldar... not good