Scout's Blind grenades

JackBurton

what DONT regular scout blind grenades do that Jonna's blind and silence grenades do. How does that change the balance?

Diogen84

Really, interesting question, what is the difference?

TheSaltKing

I'm guessing they don't silence which doesn't abilities that are being channeled? So I'm guessing you can still use abilities while being hit by blind gernades? Don't know. I play 3v3s and very rarely do people build scouts.

MajBumWhistler

Jonah adds Silence and Blind. Normally they just stun.

Silence - Can't use abilitys.
Blind - Can't attack.
Stun - Can't move.

Put them altogether and you have a unit that can't do anything but take damage.

Kharneth

@MajBumWhistler said:
Jonah adds Silence and Blind. Normally they just stun.

Silence - Can't use abilitys.
Blind - Can't attack.
Stun - Can't move.

Put them altogether and you have a unit that can't do anything but take damage.

You sure? I swear when I use those grenades without the doctrine (I refuse to use a ++heresy redacted++ psyker!) they stun the enemy and the enemy does not attack, they just stand there. I mean, using it against Dire Avengers and I stop seeing the plasma streaks.

MajBumWhistler

@Kharneth said:

@MajBumWhistler said:
Jonah adds Silence and Blind. Normally they just stun.

Silence - Can't use abilitys.
Blind - Can't attack.
Stun - Can't move.

Put them altogether and you have a unit that can't do anything but take damage.

You sure? I swear when I use those grenades without the doctrine (I refuse to use a ++heresy redacted++ psyker!) they stun the enemy and the enemy does not attack, they just stand there. I mean, using it against Dire Avengers and I stop seeing the plasma streaks.

That's how I would think it should work in theory. I've seen similar things but I don't know if what I'm seeing is a delay/lag from the initial stun wear off. It might just be in the way that Jonah's buff is explained loosely. Blind replaces stun maybe. I only explained the definitions I wasn't actually saying thats how it is just what sense I can make of the wording

Kharneth

Okay. Well.

I'm fairly certain (90% or so) that the blind grenades without the doctrine will prevent the enemy unit from moving or attacking for a couple seconds. It's possible that they continue to attack, but I don't think so, they seem to freeze and appear dizzy for a moment and then continue on as normal.

I believe they are called Blind Grenades, correct? They already blind. What the doctrine is doing is two things, and it is worded poorly. It does not add blind and silence. It adds silence. So it says "blind grenades will now blind and silence the enemy." What it means is that it will not silence them in addition to blinding them. I don't know how this is helpful because I've never seen a blinded unit use any abilities, but I'd imagine that if you blinded ASM they could still jump away with their ability.

Now, in addition to adding Silence to the grenades the doctrine also claims that the duration increases with tier levels. I assume that the grenades do not currently scale with your tiers, so when you take this ability the grenade's effect will start getting better as you tier up, which is an additional incentive to take the doctrine.

I'm under the impression that these are the only 2 advantages - Increased duration and Silence.

Stoner

Yes, but does it actually work? I like Jonah and keeping him around for that doctrine too. Without this doctrine, I honestly didn't see any difference at all, and I keep it for duration, but there is also no difference that I can tell. It's either bugged, or effect is so small to the point of negligible.
Anyone had any success with that doctrine or tests showing its usefulness?

LightningKill

I find scouts are best used in multiples. Jonah's a hero unit, scouts are normal units and you can field more of them. Sometimes I like to field 2 scouts in t1 just to blind units with a number of good grenades. Jonah can't split-fire essentially which is why the multiple scout squads are useful at least in my opinion. Other than that you could use them as tarpits I guess? Although I found servitors to be much more useful for that haha

JackBurton

@LightningKill said:
Other than that you could use them as tarpits I guess? Although I found servitors to be much more useful for that haha

To tie up ranged?

KotCR

Yeah, I wondered this. I mean stunning the enemy units, basically seems to stop them attacking or casting abilities anyway, from what I can tell.
I think the key part is the part that says "Adds Blind and Silence at increased duration with Tiers".

So at Tier 1, the Blind and Silence probably last just as long as the Stun does anyway, making them rather pointless.
But at Tier 2 and beyond, the Blind and Silence probably last longer than the Stun, meaning by taking the doctrine your Grenades will still effect your opponent in some way even after the Stun wears off.

I believe that is the intention anyway. Unless Relic plan to introduce some stun-break mechanic in the future.

Proenca

@JackBurton said:
what DONT regular scout blind grenades do that Jonna's blind and silence grenades do. How does that change the balance?

Well really simple, i mean it does say in the Doctrine.
Scouts normally only Stun but with Jonah they blind and silence.

Kharneth

@Proenca said:

@JackBurton said:
what DONT regular scout blind grenades do that Jonna's blind and silence grenades do. How does that change the balance?

Well really simple, i mean it does say in the Doctrine.
Scouts normally only Stun but with Jonah they blind and silence.

Thanks captain obvious :P We know what the words state, we're not sure how they actually function in practical terms.

As has been stated earlier, what is the advantage of silencing and blinding a stunned enemy? What can a stunned enemy do that a stunned, silenced, and blind enemy not do? Or is it just the increased duration that makes this doctrine worth taking?

Proenca

@Kharneth said:

@Proenca said:

@JackBurton said:
what DONT regular scout blind grenades do that Jonna's blind and silence grenades do. How does that change the balance?

Well really simple, i mean it does say in the Doctrine.
Scouts normally only Stun but with Jonah they blind and silence.

Thanks captain obvious :P We know what the words state, we're not sure how they actually function in practical terms.

As has been stated earlier, what is the advantage of silencing and blinding a stunned enemy? What can a stunned enemy do that a stunned, silenced, and blind enemy not do? Or is it just the increased duration that makes this doctrine worth taking?

Every comunity no matter how salty it is needs a captain and im that captain

JackBurton

did i say they disable listening posts and turrets too?

Kharneth

@Proenca said:

@Kharneth said:

@Proenca said:

@JackBurton said:
what DONT regular scout blind grenades do that Jonna's blind and silence grenades do. How does that change the balance?

Well really simple, i mean it does say in the Doctrine.
Scouts normally only Stun but with Jonah they blind and silence.

Thanks captain obvious :P We know what the words state, we're not sure how they actually function in practical terms.

As has been stated earlier, what is the advantage of silencing and blinding a stunned enemy? What can a stunned enemy do that a stunned, silenced, and blind enemy not do? Or is it just the increased duration that makes this doctrine worth taking?

Every comunity no matter how salty it is needs a captain and im that captain

lmao

KotCR

@JackBurton said:
did i say they disable listening posts and turrets too?

So...The Blind/Silence works on structures? That's interesting. I know the Stun doesn't.
I guess that could be useful early game when trying to push against an LP to minimise losses, which would give it a T1 purpose in addition to it giving you the benefits of a longer effect at T2/T3.

Kharneth

Yesterday I watched Orks move away from me while stunned from the grenade. So what does stunning do? And blind surely stops them from moving, right?

KotCR

AFAIK Blind just reduces a unit's sight range to zero (well, 1, whatever value constitutes them touching something) and prevents them from attacking.
According to the in-game Codex:

• Units affected with blind cannot attack and have their vision range reduced to the area immediately around them.
• Allied units not affected by blind may still provide vision for blinded units.
• Blind is always paired with the Silence status effect to prevent units from casting abilities (which are often the same as or feel similar to attacks).

According to the in-game Codex, Stun should stop them from doing anything and everything anyway though:

• A disable that freezes a unit in place until they can recover.
• Stun prevents units from attacking, issuing commands and casting abilities until they stand up.
• Stun interrupts abilities in the cast or channel state, stopping their effects and triggering the cooldown.
• Only structures are immune to stun.

So if a unit is moving away from you while stunned, something is up.
Unless the Blind/Silence actually replaces the Stun, but why on earth would you want to do that?

Stoner

So in plain words Blind is useless because there's good chance to have units which provide sight for blinded ones. I've seen it in action dropped on my lone ASM squad. They really had very small vision, basically around model, but I believe if they would be inside enemy squad, it might not prevent them from fighting. Silence feels like more useful, but still very situational, because not every unit relies on abilities.

Main problem of doctrine IMO that it becomes obsolete with higher tiers. On t2 there are usually bigger armies fielded so blind wouldn't be so critical, and very high damage output, so abilities become slightly shift in priorities, plus scout become so fragile, that they just wipe from any AoE. Those are only statuses that are affected by doctrine.

I don't see how this doctrine can be made more useful because if they extend stun, it will make those nades broken. Keeping enemy in long chainstuns and well... do the match.