Counter the wraith guard

guegue

Seriously guys, in late, all eldars players spam this unit, how can I counter it ? They absolutly rekt any vehicule, any late game elite, and the only infantry that can be somewhat useful is the lascannons, but they are garbage.
Every ++heresy redacted++ time I hit the late game against an eldar player, it's the same... If I try to blob lascannons, I take a bombardment instantly, but if I try the same in their base, their warpgate give them bonus mouvement speed...
Any idea ?

TibblesEviLCat

just got to base race/ work around them, cant actually fight them directly bae x

HohesHaus

Since you're talking about Lasercanons I think you are playing SM: Try ASM with Powerswords and Tacs with Plasma and/or Whirlwind.

Vodacce

Eldars spam wraithguards because this T2 unit is actually our end game unit... No other choice so... Yeah...

Melta from landspeeder work well if there is not to much wraithguards.
Whirlwinds is okay, wraithguards are slow and it's unlikely they will dodge.
ASM with power sword will work, well, ASM with power sword is pretty much the answer for everything. haha.

If you can spot and destroy the webway gate who should be around, at this point of the game, it can be done very fast, wraithguards will become almost immobile.
Wraithguards will have a hard time dodging, drop pods, orbital strike and anything like that.

Galahad2017

@guegue said:
Seriously guys, in late, all eldars players spam this unit, how can I counter it ? They absolutly rekt any vehicule, any late game elite, and the only infantry that can be somewhat useful is the lascannons, but they are garbage.
Every ++heresy redacted++ time I hit the late game against an eldar player, it's the same... If I try to blob lascannons, I take a bombardment instantly, but if I try the same in their base, their warpgate give them bonus mouvement speed...
Any idea ?

it gets worse. eldar infinity portals let you recall damaged wraithguard squads instantly to heal up and reinforce.

that is why they have infinite number of wraithguards.

rift doctrine allows them to switch their weapons from AP to normal damage for about 15-20 seconds.

basically if you see eldar coming at you in the end game with a lot of wraithguard with mutiple infinity portals the only way you'll win is if the eldar screws up somehow.

Vodacce

@Galahad2017 Yeah... Or one well placed orbital strike. x)

Seriously, the recall is not really good in 3v3, what you gonna do ? Build 10 infinity portals ? 3500 req and 1000 energy, hum what could I do with that....
But 1vs1 where you will have way less wraithguards it's actually good.

Galahad2017

@Vodacce said:
@Galahad2017 Yeah... Or one well placed orbital strike. x)

Seriously, the recall is not really good in 3v3, what you gonna do ? Build 10 infinity portals ? 3500 req and 1000 energy, hum what could I do with that....
But 1vs1 where you will have way less wraithguards it's actually good.

last 3v3 game i built 2 with the soul charge upgrade. so i could recall 4x wraithguard/wraithblade. webway connection to port them up to the battle front.
that was pretty much it for the other team. just kept taking capture points and pushing relentlessly with teleporting webway to bring in the troops. also a lot of shadow spectres. i didn't even have rift doctrine, SS and WG/WB did all the work.

steinernein

In 3v3 as SM, use Jonah's presence and troll people with Barrier and use your Banner to barrier again to segment off their forces. Then use ASM and re-engage with your Landspeeders.

Predator Destructors might work with the increase RoF/Range/Damage doctrine too since those Wraithguards tend to cluster.

Galahad2017

@steinernein said:
In 3v3 as SM, use Jonah's presence and troll people with Barrier and use your Banner to barrier again to segment off their forces. Then use ASM and re-engage with your Landspeeders.

Predator Destructors might work with the increase RoF/Range/Damage doctrine too since those Wraithguards tend to cluster.

that's kind of a scary workable counter. does Jonah's barrier block eldritch storm? that's also what allows wraithguard/blades to be so effective

steinernein

Pretty sure the counter to eldritch storm is just to Orbital in retaliation or alternatively out DPS whatever you need to and bug out.

Kharneth

Drop an Orbital Bombardment on the blob of Wraithguard. They can't go anywhere, they're too slow. No way does the Eldar player have enough infinity portals or fast enough reflexes to save them all. And if he does, storm their base because it's going to take a half hour for all of them to regroup and continue their assault.

I know it's easier said than done.

Galahad2017

@Kharneth said:
Drop an Orbital Bombardment on the blob of Wraithguard. They can't go anywhere, they're too slow. No way does the Eldar player have enough infinity portals or fast enough reflexes to save them all. And if he does, storm their base because it's going to take a half hour for all of them to regroup and continue their assault.

I know it's easier said than done.

Having lost countless WG/WB this way - I can tell you if we're in escalation phase 3 or 4 that with two infinity portals with 2 soul charges each with the increased recharge rate - you will save 4 squads for certain. SS are fast enough to outrun OB AND if you are still producing NEW WG/WB you will just simply overrun a SM heavy team in 3v3. Also if you have an elite like Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions, Wraithlord or Taldeer/Wraithknight you can just save your army by jumping to the beacon. An expensive price to pay - but it's your army that does the damage not the elites in the endgame.

I believe if you have two infinity portals you can build 2 squads at a time (correct me if i'm wrong). Either way, I've always been able to outproduce a SM heavy army in 3v3 by escalation phase 3 or 4.

The notion of Jonah saving the army with his invulnerable barrier means that you've closed into the ranks and he's right in the middle of the fray. That is where SS and Wraith Blades are especially useful - if you get meleed. I think it's possible, but since I haven't seen it executed before I'll still stand by my view that unless the eldar player screws up he will simply just teleport in, blow up a capture point, teleport out, send the WG/WB in staggered pattern and cover holes with SS on the main base.

Especially in 3v3 - if you haven't overrun the eldar with superior 3v1 skills, this is their comeback mechanic.

guegue

I was unable to use the orbital bombardment because the eldar player just waited for me in his base, where he could destroy all my units from the fog of war...
Even their range is an heresy !
I'm not really good, but it seems like a bad idea to attack the enemy base in late game, maybe that's why he was waiting for me to attack ?

Kharneth

@Galahad2017 I mean, you're sort of assuming I'm using an Orbital Bombardment and have no units of my own. My assault marines tear through wraithknights/taldeer quite easily.

Wraithguard are powerful, sure, but they're not unbeatable nor are they over powered.

Galahad2017

@Kharneth said:
@Galahad2017 I mean, you're sort of assuming I'm using an Orbital Bombardment and have no units of my own. My assault marines tear through wraithknights/taldeer quite easily.

Wraithguard are powerful, sure, but they're not unbeatable nor are they over powered.

and i have nothing to counter ASMs all game? interesting view point.

Kharneth

@Galahad2017 said:

@Kharneth said:
@Galahad2017 I mean, you're sort of assuming I'm using an Orbital Bombardment and have no units of my own. My assault marines tear through wraithknights/taldeer quite easily.

Wraithguard are powerful, sure, but they're not unbeatable nor are they over powered.

and i have nothing to counter ASMs all game? interesting view point.

I'm confused. Yes, you do have things to counter ASMs all game. I'm not interested in getting into a theoretical battle with you. Maybe you've destroyed all my ASMs and are assaulting my unguarded base. All I have is my OB and you jump in with Taldeer to control it. So be it, I was going to lose already and it wasn't because of the Wraithguard being OP or anything.

I'm just saying. You have a blob of wraithguard, probably some dark reapers, wraithblades, and SS, too, plus your wraithknight and any other elites. I've got plenty of ASMs, predators, dreadnoughts, my paladin, and some elites of my own. Now, I would drop my OB on the wraithlord blod because they're very vulnerable to it. If you soul recall away to save them you might risk the rest of your forces.

All I'm saying is that it's a viable counter, but if you're back is against the wall and you have no troops supporting the OB it's not hard for the Eldar player to prevent it.

Edit: I said I wasn't interested... and then I did just that lol.

guegue

I'm not saying they're OP, but their great range and armor make them difficult to deal with if they're defending, whirlwind won't take them out easily, any vehicule will be destroyed before getting in range, so the only viable options are drop pods with ASM and orbital bombardment ? Not if they have a warpgate in their base.
Maybe it will be easier after a buff to lascanons ? If they get a buff one day, I don't know if they really need it.

Kharneth

@guegue said:
I'm not saying they're OP, but their great range and armor make them difficult to deal with if they're defending, whirlwind won't take them out easily, any vehicule will be destroyed before getting in range, so the only viable options are drop pods with ASM and orbital bombardment ? Not if they have a warpgate in their base.
Maybe it will be easier after a buff to lascanons ? If they get a buff one day, I don't know if they really need it.

Where are they going to webway to if you're attacking their base? If the webway out just destroy their base... You can't use vehicles to counter wraithguard. You need infantry with anti-tank weapons so you need lascannon devastators or assault marines, pretty much everything else is either toast or ineffective.

They are hard to defeat, especially when defending because their biggest drawback is slowness which is irrelevant when defending. I think the only counters are ASM, LasDevs, and OB.

Galahad2017

@Kharneth said:

@guegue said:
I'm not saying they're OP, but their great range and armor make them difficult to deal with if they're defending, whirlwind won't take them out easily, any vehicule will be destroyed before getting in range, so the only viable options are drop pods with ASM and orbital bombardment ? Not if they have a warpgate in their base.
Maybe it will be easier after a buff to lascanons ? If they get a buff one day, I don't know if they really need it.

Where are they going to webway to if you're attacking their base? If the webway out just destroy their base... You can't use vehicles to counter wraithguard. You need infantry with anti-tank weapons so you need lascannon devastators or assault marines, pretty much everything else is either toast or ineffective.

They are hard to defeat, especially when defending because their biggest drawback is slowness which is irrelevant when defending. I think the only counters are ASM, LasDevs, and OB.

two points.

1) If they have webway connected they can just teleport back to base.

2) Mass Recall isn't used often but eldar can recall all their units to HQ building.

guegue

In my case, the webway was just used for mouvement speed passive, which made my orbital bombardment useless...

Kharneth

@Galahad2017 said:

@Kharneth said:

@guegue said:
I'm not saying they're OP, but their great range and armor make them difficult to deal with if they're defending, whirlwind won't take them out easily, any vehicule will be destroyed before getting in range, so the only viable options are drop pods with ASM and orbital bombardment ? Not if they have a warpgate in their base.
Maybe it will be easier after a buff to lascanons ? If they get a buff one day, I don't know if they really need it.

Where are they going to webway to if you're attacking their base? If the webway out just destroy their base... You can't use vehicles to counter wraithguard. You need infantry with anti-tank weapons so you need lascannon devastators or assault marines, pretty much everything else is either toast or ineffective.

They are hard to defeat, especially when defending because their biggest drawback is slowness which is irrelevant when defending. I think the only counters are ASM, LasDevs, and OB.

two points.

1) If they have webway connected they can just teleport back to base.

2) Mass Recall isn't used often but eldar can recall all their units to HQ building.

1) Yes. But he is talking about the Wraithguard defending their base. So if they teleport back to their base they aren't going to go very far. If they teleport somewhere else than you can destroy the power core and be done with it.

2) Really? I never heard of that. Is it on the HQ building?

Kharneth

@guegue said:
In my case, the webway was just used for mouvement speed passive, which made my orbital bombardment useless...

Against Wraithguard? No. Even with speed boost they aren't going to walk out of the OB if you've placed it on top of them.

guegue

Yeah I should have tried that, but it can be hard because your enemy can see the OB coming, I guess next time i'll drop ASM and OB instantly on his face !

Vodacce

@Kharneth @Galahad2017 Yes mass recall is a tool you have from the HQ but it will work only if your units take no hit while the thing is channeling and will recall all your units to HQ. Wich mean complete lost of map control as your bonesingers/rangers... etc... get recall too. It's hardely usefull at anytime with those conditions. (The tutorial of the game teach you the mechanic by the way =p)

It look like some reminiscence of the the retreat mechanic from DOW2/COH to me. The idea is cool but in practice it's almost useless.

Kharneth

@guegue said:
Yeah I should have tried that, but it can be hard because your enemy can see the OB coming, I guess next time i'll drop ASM and OB instantly on his face !

Yeah I know. I think OB is pretty terrible compared to the others, though the Ork one without support is pretty useless. Something I've learned is that the OB has a huge range. So if you have some troops sitting there you can drop the device on them and then set the OB to land on the Wraithguard unit. I think its range is roughly equivalent to the range of your units guns, so if you're in a fire fight you can drop the device on your guys and drop the OB on the enemies.

guegue

My biggest problem with OB is that the laser has a huge range, but not the initial impact, it's strange and force you to run after the ennemy with it if you started it too far away.

HohesHaus

OB is HUGE. It can destroy entire armies. Surplus you can take out super heroes, because they can't move away. In my opinion the best global nuke

Shunter

@guegue said:
Seriously guys, in late, all eldars players spam this unit, how can I counter it ? They absolutly rekt any vehicule, any late game elite, and the only infantry that can be somewhat useful is the lascannons, but they are garbage.
Every ++heresy redacted++ time I hit the late game against an eldar player, it's the same... If I try to blob lascannons, I take a bombardment instantly, but if I try the same in their base, their warpgate give them bonus mouvement speed...
Any idea ?

Drop an Orbital Bombardment on them, that works a treat