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Warp Spiders costs too much for its performance?
1 year ago
Ratata
First of all, I main Space Marines but often play Orc and Eldar as well, so I understand most of the basics for each race.
I know that 100 Normal DPS ain't that low, but compared to powerful nuking provided to Jaar(boomerang, dash) and Macha (spear toss, explosion), Warp Spiders have to take a lot more risk to attack enemies since it has to maintain close range enemy constantly.
The closer they get to the enemy, the higher chance of them getting snared by nasty CC skills from opponent, and you can't always dodge it by using teleport, since you have to micro other squishy Eldar units.
Shouldn't they make Warp Spiders with Stronger and make it into lv6 Elite or Make it little weaker and tweak it into lv 4 Elite?
1
Comments
Vodacce
Lately I'm actually testing them. I like them but yeah it's hard to find a good spot for those guys even in 3vs3 matches. They are not bad but they compete with other solid choices. I feel they come at the wrong time.
But hey have some interesting gimmicks and shenanigans:
If someone found a good use with them, I would like to know. Teach us ! =p
Galahad2017
i hate that warp spiders have normal armour instead of heavy.
they melt under everything. and they cost 5 points. their mines are hard to use, i haven't figured out how to get them to actually explode when i teleport around with them during middle of battle.
i'm generally frustrated with these guys.
Elkantar1981
warp spiders are our elite for harass, scout, and nuking buildings, other elites, and yes other elites offer better variety. unchecked warp spiders are amazing.
thats why USE THEM!!
NEVER!! use them!!
HohesHaus
The teleport is quite short, but they double their DPS with that. 3 mines every 35 seconds are quite good. If they would buff your Line Infantry with his teleport it would be a blast, but they don't. Only use for your troops I can see, teleport right into HB, and put your shees into the portal to get them into melee instantly. But then .... the range is just too short
Galahad2017
use them with banshees. the banshees will tie up any close combat and just teleport nearby to obilerate squads. They are very good mid-game elites now that i see how they are useful.
i'm running scorpions, warp spider, and wraithknight for my warp spider configuration.
doctrines: banshee scream (silence and blind), avenger (shield), wraithguard (rift)
elites: (anything u want - but key is wraithknight - no soul charges used for wraithguard recall)
Yncognito
warp spiders are a late game elite whose purpose is to protect your force from enemy ultimates and create fallback points.
Galahad2017
that's NOT correct.
warp spiders are mid game units and you don't win by having fallback points. their purpose is like any other mid game unit - to decisively win the game which your 2/3pt elite can't do.
i have yet to see them do anything in the late game.
ModestToo
No one seems to think this but...
I LOVE the spiders.
With their % damage a 3 mine detonation can take off 75%Hp of a 9pt elite. It's not easy to pull off but if you do, it can swing a whole game. This is just as effective vs any elite/clumped-up expensive unit albeit not as game changing (although not necessarily). Their attacks do only do normal damage, but with up to 200 dps being able to warp behind an enemy Nuker or CC elite can be devastating especially if you bait out some of their abilities. This can be used to open up windows of opportunity for your ambushes, to change the facing of an enemy army, or -best of all- swing elite dominance into your favour.
As for the Doctrines: the presence is nice for keeping your Fire Prisms mobile (read: safe) and synergizes well with the Focus Beam doctrine allowing you to warp Prisms for pin point lazer facing, or lazer face and disappearing. Between titan killing mines and mobile Fire Prisms the Spiders can have a big impact late game. I personally run the Command Presence: Temporal Mine. When tagged up with Temporal Stun doctrine Vypers become some of the best defense/ambush setters in the game. Used effectively this combo can allow you to set up a zone of area denial every 30s(?). If your foe hits it they get 2 choices, retreat or suck it up. Most people won't expect this the first time making it crucial because catching an army stunned can easily win a game. And if they choose to fall back, you can harass with said vypers or charge your banshees/wraith lords in or just go get a dominant position to take their resources. It allows to control the flow of motion on the battle fields.
The big downside of the Spiders? Kyre/Jain Zar/Wraithlord, all of whom are great offensive choices making it hard to find the value of the Spiders because no one wants to be on the defensive in an RTS. However, having an Assassin that's also a Pocket Defensive strategy is what makes me really love the Spiders. I run my build with 3 paths: Banshees/Vypers/Wraith Guard. Each has a specific purpose, banshees to claim an early advantage and guard to capitalize on said advantage. Especially effective with Macha setting up CC and AoE for the banshees, with the command doctrine for the guard. And the Vypers are my pocket defense/stall. If I lose out with the banshees from poor micro or anything else, I can fall back, set up ambushes, lure my advantaged opponent into making bad decisions to pull myself back into a game. Or kill Trukks. Either/or.
TL;DR
Mines kill titans. Guns kill specialist elites. Presence for late game Prism shenanigans. Command for Pocket Defense plays and ambush Vypers. Granted: Spiders are a niche unit, but then again they always have been.
P.S: I am by no means a highly skilled RTS, my micro is fairly lack luster. But I like strategy as a whole. Also, I'm only playing Eldar until Dark Eldar come out.
Yncognito
@Galahad2017 you have never dodged orbital bombardments with your army, with warp spiders? lol
Katitof
Well, spiders have as much DPS as deathwatch kill team but without all the utility.
I guess you need to use them to finish off squads, minor CC and mine spam.
They are one of the most mobile units in game, but they aren't one of the murderous elites.
I also do not like their EP cost for what you get in return.
crippler38
Personally I like combining them with wraithblades to get them into melee easily, being able to teleport your whole army a short distance is fun and you can combine them with macha by phasing the enemy and planting a bunch of mines under them, and then waiting.
That or just mining around as you move your forces, turtle, or to just teleport mines in an enemy path in front of them then teleporting away just so they know they can't walk through there after 10 seconds without something getting chunked.
MrBenis
I finally managed to get some mileage from spiders and spider mines.
https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=321656
jonoliveira12
Warpspiders are fine, it is just that they compete on the same price as Our Lord and Saviour, Kyre, may he never be nerfed.
AngelofDeth
BUT the enemy can enter your warp which is absolute nonsence.
Guziol
If enemies wouldn't be able to enter their warp portals i would be fine with them. I actually like them and i think as 4 pointers would be too strong. Kyre on the other hand is way to powerfull and that's not warp spiders fault.
Their dps against soft targets is actually really really good. They gain 100% damage increase for some time after each blink. Not sure if it stacks though.
jonoliveira12
I hope they do not nerf Kyre, as he is the only thing sustaining Eldar atthis point.
Otherwise, we really will need better Crowd Control on our line units.
Guziol
That's not a good way to look at it. Eldar need some buffs here and there but that's not an excuse to leave him broken.
jonoliveira12
He is not broken, I had actually never used him before the patch, since he actually takes time to learn properly. Kyre just rewards playing well with him, and Angelos can chain stun him out of a fight for a long time, if used properly.
Also, on a one on one, Diomedes beats him, and any good hitting unit will grind him out in no time.
Eldar actually needs it's CC cancer Heroes, since there is no CC in their line units.
crippler38
Kyre, can pull and drag essentially any unit (or units) he wishes at any time that happen to be between him and his true damage death circles. Meaning that by simply existing Kyre forces you to scatter your units away from these circles and if he happens to either get lucky, you be too slow, or he's fast/good at it (I can't remember if the circles still slow, if they do then you're just right hereseyed), you die.
Kyre can bring any force he wants out of position, and then allow his units to either obliterate them or do it himself by dropping eggs on them.
If we were using 1v1 as a metric for how good an elite unit was, then Assault Terminators would be considered just grand.
Also, Gabe is pretty great not as great as Kyre, but pretty great.
MaxwellsDaemon
Kyre is definitely too strong for his elite point cost - he shouldn't be able to pull in vehicles (plus it looks silly)
If they keep that I think raise the elite cost of him.
AngelofDeth
Yeah and make wraithlord 6 or 5 elite point since he's useless than kyre...
MaxwellsDaemon
Wraithlord is literally useless.
I think by design he's just bad. He's basically a dreadnaught without the drop pods initiation....this means he just gets focus fired down on the approach.
Volidemaru
Just 5 elite point too late. 100 normal damage vs heavy armor? Really? Eldar army ussualy dead on 15 min.
Lepreconum
1)Low hp? Spiders can kill 2 HB Devs in direct firefight 2 vs 1 and they will only loose their shield.
2)4 jumps and mines give them incredible trapper kit and great mobility.
3)Mines % damage is horrific and can wipe out half of enemy formation, ignoring their HP value.
4)Mine plant can be used for fast scouting without taking real damage.
5)Spiders are great at killing tier 1-2 melee elites with normal armor like angelos/macha/etc.
6)Cause of warp teleport it's nearly imposibe lost them(exept if you have dead brain and hands growing from your ++heresy redacted++) and they restore HP really quickly.
7) Mines have really low CD forcing enemy to be double carefull and scout all territory before he going attack you, giving you time to get's ready and form ranks. Otherwise enemy can just loose almost all his army in their assault.
Spires are most "Eldar" unit in entire army. So if you can't put it into proper use - you shoud never play eldar from start.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Lepreconum
I agree with all apart from your last statement.
Spiders kick ++heresy redacted++. HOWEVER let's not have an elitist view of Eldar.
Aspire to be awesome with warp spiders and the insane micro tricks you can pull with them (+100% ranged damage on units using their portal), mine spiking armies with Macha,
quickly taking out key units on the back lines, dodging gabes hammer as he lands....etc etc.
Honestly these guys are probably my favourite Eldar elite for the amount of value they have.
Smellysledge
Warpspiders have always been my #1 Eldar unit , ever since I first started to play DoW back in Dark Crusade, I remember I'd always scout the battlefield for them when facing Eldar as they were always a priority! They were great in DoW2 aswell! My only gripe with them now is that they lack haywire grenades , but I suppose the mines make up for that. It's very fun to utilize the mines to their maximum potential. With good placement they can truly assfuck some units. They are also great for sniping down big elites due to their % damage? I think the mines are vastly underrated, they can practically oneshot a predator, whatever survives 3 mines can easily be hunted down with teleport + damage boost, even dreadnoughts take considerable damage from that. Got a question though - Would Macha's temporal wave (stasis) work together with mines? As in you stasis an enemy, such as gabe/solaria/something stronk, teleport mines on them, wait about 2seconds, remove stasis and the mines goes off? The mines have 3 seconds arm time, don't they? Something I haven't tried, but would like to.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Smellysledge
Yeah they work really well.
Stasis some stuff... choose mine placement at your leisure (or frantically if there is still a tonne of stuff outside then stasis field) count to almost free and cancel the stasis...IF you can manage it run your warp spiders back to a ranged unit of your choice so you can also warp them in with the damage buff.
It's actually why I think warp spiders are such a great pick. Often the worry you have in going for a mid range point elite is if you don't manage to accomplish enough with it and your opponent manages to save up for a 7-9 pointer....with warp spiders mines you have a very decent counter to super late game units and you can achieve substantial t1 and t2 engagement advantages.
Katitof
Well, you jinxed it.
Now, depending on how it'll be with Kyre now, he will either fall into "trash tier" and sit next to Ronhan or will be only dragged down to WS level.
Expect the best, prepare for the worst.
jonoliveira12
To be honest, I will trade Kyre for a competent T1, and an Eldritch Storm that does the same as an Orbital Bombardment.
Tobi
Spiders mines are op vs knights but on the other side their stats are quite meh as for so expensive elite.I would be happy if relic would nerf minea dmg again high value target and buff their dmg/hp/lower cost a bit.