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Heavy bolter turrets
3 years ago
Godfryd
Hey!
Yesterday I bought DOW III and played first few games.
Although I find it very interesting and fun to play, I wonder will there ever be heavy bolter turrets to build? Like the ones from DOW I?
I really miss the view of hundred of dead orc bodies near my turrets...
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Stoner
I like mobile H-bolter turrets more xD
If you like defensive gameplay, that's no problem really. Every race have heavy weapon teams which is far better than any turret, especially with doctrines. And there are also heavy cover bubbles...
Kharneth
Heavy Bolter Devastators are not better than a heavy bolter turret. They are different. A heavy bolter turret does not get stuck in combat with an Orc Boyz unit. A heavy bolter turret has structure armor (heavy?) instead of normal armor. A heavy bolter turret can never move and is susceptible to being outranged.
They are different. But a single heavy bolter turret that sits next to a listening post to protect it is far superior to a HBD squad that never moves and protects a listening post precisely due to the reasons I explained above. Also, if I remember correctly, the turrets are generally cheaper than units.
Stoner
I think author meant compstomp turret turtling strategy, as most casual players used and had fun with in DOW I. Vs AI x2 HBD work much better than turret because it is too stupid to disrupt both and will be melt down while fighting first dev in row plus you can kite. In pvp multiplayer turret strategy never works and anyone who would waste resources on this would be brutally punished. If they would be cheaper in DOW III, it definitely would have strong counterplay so still non-viable.
Kharneth
I don't see the point in theorizing how to beat AI since you can beat the Hard AI easily without having to try.
I would like the ability to build our own turrets as well. I'd also like the generator, turret, and power core removed from the game because they're just so dumb. I know none of that is going to happen, they might add turrets but I doubt it. Turrets might be a waste of resources and easily punished, I believe it. Devastators are more worth the investment, but only because they can move. I'd much rather have a turret if I was never going to move the devs.
KotCR
Try hard A.I. Eldar with a good set of elites and doctrines on K'homet's Pass. It's not so easy. With his omnscience he really likes to exploit the range and power of the Eldar Skimmers, even the flying anti-tank infantry guys are annoying on that map while under the turtlage of the cheating A.I. A human player would need a spotter for these units, but the A.I. really abuses his ability to see everything, and all that terrain where ground units cannot go. That being said, Heavy Bolter Turrets probably wouldn't make much of a difference.
I wouldn't count them out multiplayer yet though. They were in the campaign; And if they added a Techmarine Hero (might be a nice alternative 2 or 3 cost elite for SM, actually), I think there's a pretty good chance he'd be able to build them, or he'd come with a doctrine that allows Servitors to build them. Just be patient, I'm sure they'll add some more elites down the line.
Kharneth
I suppose I'd be totally happy with an elite that could build turrets, I think 3 would be enough for me, but not being able to place any feels weird. I didn't really play online in DoW1, so I don't really have any experience of using turrets against players. The idea of an alternative 2-3 point elite would be nice, too. I don't really like scorpions or the kill team, or storm boyz(?).
I'll try Hard Eldar AI with.... the doctrines/elites that I think are the best? I'll admit I've never played against Hard Eldar, just lots of marines and orks.
KotCR
Try it on that map in particular, especially if he has Striking Scorpions and the Autarch, due to exploiting his omniscience, he's pretty brutal on that map as Eldar. It's actually a good way to showcase the crazy strengths of some Eldar units though. Eldar are a bit less tricky on other maps, but due to the terrain on that map...
As for DoW1 Turret Rush, shame there's not so many replays online these days. But Turret Rush with Imperial Guard was definitely a thing, taking full advantage of the IG's Builders Commander armour, and swarms of mini-heroes or Guardsmen to keep enemy squads tied-up. Necrons and SoB liked to do it sometimes too, due to having stronger turrets (and the SoB Servitor had a building demolishing ability too which paired well with a Turret Rush strats).
Occasionally an SM or CSM player would put up a Turret during a rush or fight to support his other units in an early engagement, due to them struggling a bit in Tier 1 vs other races with their limited available units in T1, but they tended not to build rush strategies around it. It would basically be the equivalent of setting up a Heavy Bolter Devastator to support your front-line.
Kharneth
@KotCR I tried Hard AI Eldar with Early Defensive and OMG they are brutal. They beat me like 4 or 5 times and then I finally beat them once. They are so hard! Thanks a bunch! It was great.
If anyone is wondering how to counter ASM.... well.... Falcons.
Falcons are definitely a hard counter to ASM, it's crazy. 5 Times the AI did this to me, and after the first time I was 100% trying to counter them. They spammed Dire Avengers with a couple banshee squads and the scorpions and then Macha. Very quickly they came at me with Vypers and Falcons and I could not do anything. They'd sit in weird places or just move up and down impassable terrain and my power swords were useless. Maybe I'd get a dreadnought or a land speeder, but they just slowed them down. I got crushed over and over and could not stop them!
Finally I found the way to win was to rush vehicles myself. I made 2 ASM squads, didn't reinforce anything, just let them fight until death. Finally I got a dreadnought ready in the drop pod and soon after a 2nd was on the way. Then I saw his Falcons and I knew I was ready for him on the 6th battle. I won it purely because I matched his vehicle rush, but ++heresy redacted++.
Falcons may not work against SM in general. They may not work against LasDevs, but Space Marines have like nothing except the devs who're anti-armor until T3 except the melee units. So if you can't get into melee or you can't reliably stay in melee than you're screwed! The falcons were intense. It was a lot of fun, but the AI is such a cheater with its ability to constantly be moving with every unit. Talk about transcending the human micromanagement system. I don't think Eldar have a skill ceiling, or at least one that is physically impossible to attain.
EndgameOnyx
Initially I agreed with the OP when I first played this game... but now I'm not so sure. I have a vivid image of 6 heavy bolter turrets set up in a wall-of-death in front of a shield generator... cringes
Kharneth
Whirlwind them from out of range. 1 Dreadnought can destroy them all. LasDevs maybe if they outrange them. I know Eldar could do it easily. Orks would probably cringe, but you don't look like an Ork. 1 Nob unit would work.
6 turrets would be quite an investment, no?
Also, my personal thinking is that every army should get 5 turrets that their builders can build. Orks just build 5 extra WAAGH!!! Banners that do not affect tiering. First 5 tier up, the extra are just turrets. You can't spam them, they'll be fairly priced, and it gives a way to add some defense somewhere. Orks can already put 5 WAAGH!!! Banners in front of a generator... has anyone complained about it, though?
EndgameOnyx
Even so, it's something to consider. Maybe put a no-build zone around the objective. Something like that.
Kharneth
On the contrary, I think you should only be able to build turrets in the same locations that elites can enter from. So only near objectives and your base. I think protecting the generator with turrets is a really good strategy and not something that should be avoided through design, but encouraged. As long as the turrets cannot be turned into missile launcher or lascannons they'll be very easy to either outrange or destroy with vehicles.
EndgameOnyx
Seems like we're looking at this issue from 2 different ends of the same field.
Kharneth
It seems like you think surrounding the generator with turrets would be cheesy and unfair... but I think that depends largely on the cost to build turrets. The team that doesn't surround his generator with turrets could likely easily gain map control and then storm the generator in mid-game with vehicles and such. I don't imagine it being as powerful as I imagine you're imagining it.
EndgameOnyx
I meant more along the lines of either encouraging centralized defense or discouraging it.
Kharneth
I think, ideally, what should be encouraged is using turrets to defend listening posts. IMO, protecting the generator is a fine strategy, but a better one would/should be to use 1-2 turrets as a defense for your objectives to enhance the listening posts. I think 2-3 objectives defended by 1-2 turrets would be what I'd want, in addition to my infantry and vehicles. It would make me feel safer storming the enemy base with my entire force. I don't like leaving a couple squads to defend with, they always get butchered, but I think some turrets would be a much more worthwhile investment as a defender.
I mean, think about the Orks as an example because they already have 5 turrets. This feature already exists and I don't think it's game breaking. Orks are better defenders than anyone else, because they can make a wall of 5 turrets with a listening post and just be impregnable if they choose to sit there. It's not necessarily the best strategy, but it exists and I'd like to be able to do it too!
EndgameOnyx
HOLY CAPS BATMAN!
But I do like the idea of deployable cover as well... or maybe let us repair the heckin' heavy cover.
Kharneth
All of this sounds like they're perfect for a Techmarine 2-3pt elite that has been suggested already.
I think a Techmarine elite for a very cheap cost would be awesome (and an equivalent for each army). It can build 1-3 turrets for free, but the ability has a cooldown. It can build 1-3 pieces of deployable cover that work like the heavy cover bubble except for it's much smaller, same mechanic as the turrets. The turrets and the cover cannot overlap. It can repair the things it builds but regular builders cannot repair these things.
Then give it a 3rd power that is either supportive or offensive so it can either assist in battles or can support its creations or allies. 1 offensive ability with some sort of heavy weapon (multimelta, perhaps) would be super cool.
Kharneth
Eldar already have a doctrine that allows their builder to make cover, so having this be a default feature would require some modifications. Maybe more doctrines similar to the Eldar one would be good.
KotCR
Yeah, pretty much. For Tier 1, firepower was relatively high, but the biggest advantage was that Turrets couldn't be tied up in melee, nor could they be morale broken, which is another reason it was so popular with Imperial Guard (who once they finally became balanced, had some weakness to both these things in T1). Unlike squads which would cost requisition to reinforce and keep at full strength, Turrets could also be repaired for free. Imperial Guard had an expensive tech so this was important. Imperial Guard builder was incredibly resilient (he had Commander-class armour, immune to T0 unit fire for the most part) and also had crazy high repair speed (he was a Mechanicus Priest), so he naturally complimented it well. As a result, you might not notice that the Imperial Guard Turrets were actually weaker than those of the other races.
Necrons employed it to have an offensive presence early on, since their base troops were slow and lacked mobility (but their builder Scarabs were relatively fast moving), and it would also give you a structure to recall forces to to get them to the front line faster. SoB employed the strategy for much the same reason the Imperial Guard would, though their particular set of units didn't compliment it quite as well (SoB T1 was sorta like a hybrid between SM T1 and IG T1 with what they had available). It could be effective with them but was riskier that it would be with Guard, with a smaller payoff, and as a result it was still done but much more rarely.
Yeah, anyone who criticises the A.I. in this game really needs to give this a go at some point. They might change their mind. If not about the A.I. then at least about the current balance state of Eldar :P. It took me till my third or fourth try too. In the end I did it by hiding Lascannon Devastators in stealth fields all around the map (you can see the A.I. knows they are there but he pretends he doesn't) to counter all the skimmer harassment and economy ++heresy redacted++ the A.I. engages in, then doing a similar thing to you with cheesing Dreadnoughts with some ASM onto his Gen and Turret and Core as soon as I could, because I had a feeling I wouldn't be able to keep up with the Eldar A.I. on that map in a prolonged engagement, especially if my previous attempts where anything to go by.
Kharneth
@KotCR The thing that was clear was that the AI was responding to my units. In order to get vehicles out fast enough I had to build only power generators, build only 2 ASM squads, not reinforce them, and not build the arsenal until T2. Then I'd build a dreadnought in the drop pod and get power swords after. As soon as I did this a Falcon started harassing my listening post. I didn't have to cheese him or anything, I just had to beat him to the vehicles. I beat his force in the field and then blew up his stuff afterwards, I didn't just sneak past him. Idk if I could do it again haha, but I play against Hard Orks and Hard Space Marines all the time and I've resorted to facing against 2 hard AI at once for a challenge. Eldar AI is really good. Idk how many of their loadouts are good, though, because I played against Eldar AI when I just started playing and I'm pretty sure I didn't have trouble against hard Eldar then, but I used random loadouts.
Svanh
It does seem loadout-dependent to a degree but the Eldar AI just seems far better than the AI on the other two factions. The Ork AI, on the other hand, seems to have extreme trouble.
Part of it might just be that Eldar have an economy advantage thanks to the dichotomy of their fights. As Eldar you tend to lose nothing or lose squads whole while the other two factions bleed constantly while in combat (Orks seem to have the most trouble here).
Kharneth
Orks having the most problem with bleeding is exactly how it should be. I mean that it makes perfect sense. They need to be balanced, for sure, I believe the list of factions from powerful to weak is Eldar > SM > Orks. Ork Boyz are the cheapest unit of the 3 with the most models in the unit and they probably don't have the most health (if you count eldar shields as extra hp). Because of that, they will lose models extremely quickly. Meaning their dps will lower sooner and quicker. I also think they're the most challenging to play, but it's weird that the AI isn't good at them. I mean, Orks seem to have quite a lot of potential, Eldar AI is super good because it can abuse it's speed with infinitely superior micromanagement, but it doesn't seem to use any of this with Orks to chain 'Ardboy stuns or to chain trukks launching boyz into combat or use Nobz to taunt enemies. I don't get it. Hard AI Orks just summons boyz and shoota boyz and they die so easily.
I don't play as Orks, but it seems like they should be played a lot more defensively in this game, seeing as they'll always have an advantage if they fight near LPs and waaagh banners.
TibblesEviLCat
im sure it will be fine , the game has upkeep costs of units this could be applied to turrets.