@MY_NAME69 said:
Turrets are a thing of the passed. Nobody is going to use a turret competetively. It cant move. It can be avoided and will most likely cause you to lose the game if you spam them like every (Newb) techmarine in DoW 2 did. Fun times though.
Then don't spam them, use them tactically, and only when it makes sense, like good players did in the previous Dawn of War games. Just because people took Techmarine in DoW2 (or Plague Champion or Mekboy for that matter), doesn't mean they intended to spam Turrets all game. It just opened up Turrets as an option, nothing more, nothing less. And turrets were viable in the right situations; The immunity to melee for holding a critical location was always a huge plus, and was always there biggest strength in a DoW game, as typically melee has been the counter to heavily armed ranged infantry, but it's a weakness Turrets have never shared with that category of infantry.
Besides, you can't ever say "nobody will use a Turret competitively" because it'd entirely depend on how they were balanced. For one, Orks are already using turrets competitively in DoW3. The early forward Waaagh Banner is a legit and effective start, especially on maps with key choke points.
Your statement is false by it's very nature though anyway. Do you mean to tell me that if a Turret had 10x the firepower of a regular unit, and 10x the health, for the same cost as a regular unit, that still nobody would be able to use them effectively? You either can't be serious, or you are being stupid by making such a blanket statement. Don't get me wrong, that'd be a horribly balanced Turret, and crazy overpowered, but it'd definitely be competitive despite the immobility.
@Kharneth said:
I don't play as Orks, but it seems like they should be played a lot more defensively in this game, seeing as they'll always have an advantage if they fight near LPs and waaagh banners.
It's strange considering what you'd think the nature of the race would be, but despite usually having solid offensive options early game, Orks have likewise still usually had a strong defensive presence in the DoW games, certainly for the early game. In DoW1, as all their buildings were armed by default, it actually make them the most rush-immune and harrass-resistant race in DoW1, even more so than the Imperial Guard. It was quite common in DoW1 for Orks to build their tech and research structures up around a forward Listening Post to fortify the location even more, as certain buildings had building_high armour which was very resilient, and as all the Ork buildings were armed, the extra firepower was always nice to have should the opponent attempt to take the strategic point away from you anyway.
@KotCR Old Orks were the ++heresy redacted++. I think I just thought of a way to help balance orks. All of their buildings should get turrets again, lol. Then see what else is needed.
@MY_NAME69 said:
1.speaking of ++heresy redacted++ tech marines and plague champs not high level tech marines. Yeah the 2 turret + 2 sniper combo was ok but was still fairly easy to beat when tackled early.
the reason why ork turrets are competetive is because they are not one demensional. In DoW 3 waagh turrets are effective because it synergizes with their units its not just a Turret.
Is there some reason that if more Turrets were added in some deployable or buildable form to this game they could never synergize with anything? Especially seems you already admitted the Ork Waaagh Towers do. Care to explain how that's something that's impossible to program into the game again in any form or concept?
Calls me stupid but brings up a OP turret argument that would definantly kill of DoW because people would be building turrets infront of enemy base... YEAH OK! Very clever you seriously convinced me. And no turrets would still scale very badly.
Once again, how would you know? It'd all depend on the stat numbers the Turrets, and their scaling were given. I could see the vehicle upgrade being extended to Turrets, for example.
And yes, it seems like you are thinking within a pre-defined box and expectation of what a Turret would be like. That's pretty narrow-minded. Honestly, how would you know, till you actually saw how they were implimented?
Stop it people. I can't remember single RTS where turtling was a winning strategy and didn't have strong counterplay. Even if we allow that enemy is so stupid that spends all his resources to build turrets in front of his base, we would have entire map and so much money that enemy would be steamrolled in short order.
Nobody is saying turtling is a winning strategy, @Stoner . The inclusion of a hero unit that can build turrets, doesn't necessarily mean that suddenly your only gameplay option is to turtle. I really have no idea where that line of thinking keeps coming from. Heck, there is one already in the game in the form of the Big Mek with his Scrap Turrets.
Deathstorm Droppod Turrets are also already a thing, as are Listening Posts, and the aforementioned Waaagh Banners. None of these elements have meant that the only way to play a race while using them is turtling, seriously.
I'm definitely seeing a Techmarine/Techpriest as a hero unit being a wonderful idea. I love the idea of making him a cheap 2/3 point elite to counter the choice of the very aggressive ones we already have and also because a defensive builder-hero would likely see most of its usefulness played out in the early game.
Techmarine for 2-3pts. Call him Support. Not a tank or a nuker; he doesn't deal much damage or take much damage, but would probably have similar stats to a single tactical squad. He has a heavy bolter which doesn't need to be set up or torn down. His heavy bolter can be replaced with a plasma cannon or multimelta. Neither come with an ability, one just shoots like the landspeeder melta and the other shoots like the ven. dread plasma cannon w/o the ability.
He has the ability to construct an anti-infantry turret on a target location; the turret should take up a sizable amount of room even if the turret itself isn't large and cannot be build in places where buildings cannot be built. The turret, if destroyed, should turn into scrap for dem boyz. He is limited to 3 total turrets and whenever any are destroyed they are put on CD (30 sec) before they can be rebuilt. They also take about the same time to build as a listening post. They cannot be repaired by regular builders, only by the techmarine himself.
He also has the ability to fortify ground, allowing him to repair the damage taken to heavy cover and also to repair broken heavy cover. I think it would be difficult to allow him to create cover himself and I don't think it would balance well, so I think he ought to be able to rebuild and restore the already available heavy cover.
So his abilities are construct turret and repair which extends to things the regular builder cannot repair. He does alright damage and survives for a little bit in combat, he's an elite after all, but wouldn't be more powerful than the Kill Team squad without his turrets backing him up.
I'd say these turrets could be built anywhere, and due to his design, would be better off being built near each other than spread apart.
@Larkis it depends on the chapter, some marines are defensive.
I think @Stoner and @Nassir_Amit are missing the point completely. We don't want the ability to build turrets in this game because we want turtling to be a winning strategy or because we expect it to be a winning strategy. We don't the ability to build turrets because we think that they would/could be competitive.
Personally, I want the ability to build turrets in order to reinforce objectives that I really want to hold on to. Putting a turret next to a listening post effectively doubles the LPs damage and health. It would be useful to have a little more control over fortifying objectives. A lot of people have forward bases in this game and it would be nice to have a way to fortify those bases with more than a mere listening post, which is the same fortification you can place on any objective. Some objectives you only capture for sight and to prevent the enemy from having it, others are extremely sought after or are assaulted often.
Claiming that building turrets would be a waste of resources and would not be a powerful strategy is not a counter to the argument that we should have them because effective and competitive units are not the exclusive type of unit in this game. Just because you don't think something would be powerful doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Why are we missing the point??
If you fortify your position, your effectivly turteling. A bit more ways to turtle are always good.
You're, or rather he is, missing the point if the thought is that this shouldn't be included because it wouldn't be effective. That thought process just doesn't fit.
Fortifying a position is not the same thing as turtling. Playing defensively isn't turtling either. Turtling is putting all of your eggs in the defensive basket; it's when all you focus on is defense.
The ability to build turrets enforces the ability to turtle, but it is not the only thing that turrets can do. Building a turret next to a centralized listening post where you've chosen to set up your forward base is not turtling. Having a forward base itself doesn't fall in line well with turtling, frankly.
I didn't say it shouldn't be included, on contrary, I'm pretty sure Techmarine will make it into the game in form of Elite sooner or later, and he will have an ability to build turrets, that's I'n sure of. My point is that it won't make much difference in overall mechanics, because it WILL HAVE strong counterplay, that's for sure.
@Kharneth said: @Stoner oh, well I misunderstood and agree than. I thought you were saying that it shouldn't be an option.
Yeah, I thought he was saying that too. In that case I also misunderstood.
Nothing wrong with something having strong counter-play. Wouldn't want something in the game that you couldn't counter, afterall. Could still be fun and effective however.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Standard builders should get some standard fortifications and deployable cover, while techmarine gets the fancy ++heresy redacted++.
Seeing as builders cannot build deployable cover unless they're a Bonesinger with a doctrine I'd be okay with anything. Having more options for building things like cover and turrets would be really nice, whether it costs req/power and a regular builder or requires elite points with an appropriately slotted elite.
Giving Servitors another copy of Eldar Forcefield would be pretty weird, and since cover system literally doesn't exist in game, sandbags or the like simply won't work. No idea what Relic might do about this.
@Stoner said:
Giving Servitors another copy of Eldar Forcefield would be pretty weird, and since cover system literally doesn't exist in game, sandbags or the like simply won't work. No idea what Relic might do about this.
Yeah I don't think that Servitors should be able to build cover seeing as Eldar have to spend a doctrine on it.
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KotCR
Then don't spam them, use them tactically, and only when it makes sense, like good players did in the previous Dawn of War games. Just because people took Techmarine in DoW2 (or Plague Champion or Mekboy for that matter), doesn't mean they intended to spam Turrets all game. It just opened up Turrets as an option, nothing more, nothing less. And turrets were viable in the right situations; The immunity to melee for holding a critical location was always a huge plus, and was always there biggest strength in a DoW game, as typically melee has been the counter to heavily armed ranged infantry, but it's a weakness Turrets have never shared with that category of infantry.
Besides, you can't ever say "nobody will use a Turret competitively" because it'd entirely depend on how they were balanced. For one, Orks are already using turrets competitively in DoW3. The early forward Waaagh Banner is a legit and effective start, especially on maps with key choke points.
Your statement is false by it's very nature though anyway. Do you mean to tell me that if a Turret had 10x the firepower of a regular unit, and 10x the health, for the same cost as a regular unit, that still nobody would be able to use them effectively? You either can't be serious, or you are being stupid by making such a blanket statement. Don't get me wrong, that'd be a horribly balanced Turret, and crazy overpowered, but it'd definitely be competitive despite the immobility.
It's strange considering what you'd think the nature of the race would be, but despite usually having solid offensive options early game, Orks have likewise still usually had a strong defensive presence in the DoW games, certainly for the early game. In DoW1, as all their buildings were armed by default, it actually make them the most rush-immune and harrass-resistant race in DoW1, even more so than the Imperial Guard. It was quite common in DoW1 for Orks to build their tech and research structures up around a forward Listening Post to fortify the location even more, as certain buildings had building_high armour which was very resilient, and as all the Ork buildings were armed, the extra firepower was always nice to have should the opponent attempt to take the strategic point away from you anyway.
Kharneth
@KotCR Old Orks were the ++heresy redacted++. I think I just thought of a way to help balance orks. All of their buildings should get turrets again, lol. Then see what else is needed.
KotCR
Is there some reason that if more Turrets were added in some deployable or buildable form to this game they could never synergize with anything? Especially seems you already admitted the Ork Waaagh Towers do. Care to explain how that's something that's impossible to program into the game again in any form or concept?
Once again, how would you know? It'd all depend on the stat numbers the Turrets, and their scaling were given. I could see the vehicle upgrade being extended to Turrets, for example.
And yes, it seems like you are thinking within a pre-defined box and expectation of what a Turret would be like. That's pretty narrow-minded. Honestly, how would you know, till you actually saw how they were implimented?
Stoner
Stop it people. I can't remember single RTS where turtling was a winning strategy and didn't have strong counterplay. Even if we allow that enemy is so stupid that spends all his resources to build turrets in front of his base, we would have entire map and so much money that enemy would be steamrolled in short order.
KotCR
Nobody is saying turtling is a winning strategy, @Stoner . The inclusion of a hero unit that can build turrets, doesn't necessarily mean that suddenly your only gameplay option is to turtle. I really have no idea where that line of thinking keeps coming from. Heck, there is one already in the game in the form of the Big Mek with his Scrap Turrets.
Deathstorm Droppod Turrets are also already a thing, as are Listening Posts, and the aforementioned Waaagh Banners. None of these elements have meant that the only way to play a race while using them is turtling, seriously.
Larkis
I think this way of fortyfing a place could be part of the Imperial Army, when they reach the battlefield.
Marines are more the offensive type of gameplay so fortifying dont seems to fitt well in it.
But for the IA it really could work.
Kharneth
I'm definitely seeing a Techmarine/Techpriest as a hero unit being a wonderful idea. I love the idea of making him a cheap 2/3 point elite to counter the choice of the very aggressive ones we already have and also because a defensive builder-hero would likely see most of its usefulness played out in the early game.
Techmarine for 2-3pts. Call him Support. Not a tank or a nuker; he doesn't deal much damage or take much damage, but would probably have similar stats to a single tactical squad. He has a heavy bolter which doesn't need to be set up or torn down. His heavy bolter can be replaced with a plasma cannon or multimelta. Neither come with an ability, one just shoots like the landspeeder melta and the other shoots like the ven. dread plasma cannon w/o the ability.
He has the ability to construct an anti-infantry turret on a target location; the turret should take up a sizable amount of room even if the turret itself isn't large and cannot be build in places where buildings cannot be built. The turret, if destroyed, should turn into scrap for dem boyz. He is limited to 3 total turrets and whenever any are destroyed they are put on CD (30 sec) before they can be rebuilt. They also take about the same time to build as a listening post. They cannot be repaired by regular builders, only by the techmarine himself.
He also has the ability to fortify ground, allowing him to repair the damage taken to heavy cover and also to repair broken heavy cover. I think it would be difficult to allow him to create cover himself and I don't think it would balance well, so I think he ought to be able to rebuild and restore the already available heavy cover.
So his abilities are construct turret and repair which extends to things the regular builder cannot repair. He does alright damage and survives for a little bit in combat, he's an elite after all, but wouldn't be more powerful than the Kill Team squad without his turrets backing him up.
I'd say these turrets could be built anywhere, and due to his design, would be better off being built near each other than spread apart.
@Larkis it depends on the chapter, some marines are defensive.
Kharneth
I think @Stoner and @Nassir_Amit are missing the point completely. We don't want the ability to build turrets in this game because we want turtling to be a winning strategy or because we expect it to be a winning strategy. We don't the ability to build turrets because we think that they would/could be competitive.
Personally, I want the ability to build turrets in order to reinforce objectives that I really want to hold on to. Putting a turret next to a listening post effectively doubles the LPs damage and health. It would be useful to have a little more control over fortifying objectives. A lot of people have forward bases in this game and it would be nice to have a way to fortify those bases with more than a mere listening post, which is the same fortification you can place on any objective. Some objectives you only capture for sight and to prevent the enemy from having it, others are extremely sought after or are assaulted often.
Claiming that building turrets would be a waste of resources and would not be a powerful strategy is not a counter to the argument that we should have them because effective and competitive units are not the exclusive type of unit in this game. Just because you don't think something would be powerful doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
Kharneth
You're, or rather he is, missing the point if the thought is that this shouldn't be included because it wouldn't be effective. That thought process just doesn't fit.
Fortifying a position is not the same thing as turtling. Playing defensively isn't turtling either. Turtling is putting all of your eggs in the defensive basket; it's when all you focus on is defense.
The ability to build turrets enforces the ability to turtle, but it is not the only thing that turrets can do. Building a turret next to a centralized listening post where you've chosen to set up your forward base is not turtling. Having a forward base itself doesn't fall in line well with turtling, frankly.
Stoner
I didn't say it shouldn't be included, on contrary, I'm pretty sure Techmarine will make it into the game in form of Elite sooner or later, and he will have an ability to build turrets, that's I'n sure of. My point is that it won't make much difference in overall mechanics, because it WILL HAVE strong counterplay, that's for sure.
Kharneth
@Stoner oh, well I misunderstood and agree than. I thought you were saying that it shouldn't be an option.
KotCR
Yeah, I thought he was saying that too. In that case I also misunderstood.
Nothing wrong with something having strong counter-play. Wouldn't want something in the game that you couldn't counter, afterall. Could still be fun and effective however.
Kharneth
Seeing as builders cannot build deployable cover unless they're a Bonesinger with a doctrine I'd be okay with anything. Having more options for building things like cover and turrets would be really nice, whether it costs req/power and a regular builder or requires elite points with an appropriately slotted elite.
Stoner
Giving Servitors another copy of Eldar Forcefield would be pretty weird, and since cover system literally doesn't exist in game, sandbags or the like simply won't work. No idea what Relic might do about this.
Kharneth
Yeah I don't think that Servitors should be able to build cover seeing as Eldar have to spend a doctrine on it.