Holistic Feedback from Korean Players

Ratata

Greetings, Fellow DOW3 players. We come in Peace

We are from one of the largest Korean WH Community: 'Warhammer Town'
We've been playing since DOW1. Not only dawn of war franchise, we talk about most of the PC and Console based WH games.

We wanted to share our opinions about DOW3 balances and user convenience with rest of users AND RELIC
Please be aware that these feedback is from more than 50 players in our community, they have different spectrum as different players.

http://cafe.naver.com/whm40k/18905
We went through a intensive feedback process focused on sharing as much opinions as we can.
These are pure impressions that we Korean players took during first few week of DOW3 release.

Not everyone thinks the same we just brought as much opinions we could
Please share us your thoughts.

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Overview
I decided to put this first for our topic since most of problem are quite complex and interconnected.

Skill shots do too much damage
While skills shots do not have that much penalty or risk, they do so much damage. The early game is easily broken by powerful skill shots which are even hard to dodge (mage elite, assault leap, banshee charge). Tier 1 units die fast while it takes some time and resource to build or reinforce them.

if you were able to hit enemy squad hard with your skills in the early stage of battle, you can take control of resource points or even damage the opponent's object (might even destroy it if you have scorpions as Eldar) Which gives critical damage to opponent, and roll greater snowball. This happens around 4~5 minutes of the game.

Yes, you can comeback when you stick to the rear resource points and win other fights, but it is hard to win over and opponent who already has better map control after first few fights.

We think this might be helped by...

• decreasing overall skill shot damage of the elites and doctrines, let them increase over tier or escalation phase.
• increasing the health of lower tier units
• keep the current status but let units recover faster (increased resource gain, or price deduction)

Easy kill and strong reward for Objects
For some units (such as ASM with PS or Scorpions with Hunt activated) it takes less than 30 seconds to deal critical damage or even smack the shield generator, granting easy reward of requisition, power, and elite points.

For ASM are very mobile with its jump pack, can easily run away after doing enough damage to the generator.
For Scorpions, They have crazy DPS with the Hunt active, and their crit damage. They can work alone, kill small defenders while other Eldar units defend their posts.
And... Orcs don't have hard hitter like above which makes them sad

We had a conclusion that the Objects should be much tougher during early stage of the game, if they are to maintain current rewards.
Low Risk High Return is not favorable.

• Add Building Armor type or, Object armor type so those crit based backdoor is less lethal and decisive.

Tier 1 Infantry looks powerless and useless on late game
on DOW1 or DOW2 even on late games Tier 1 infantry had its place to stand through additional upgrades on Tier3, or squad leaders.
I know this game is not DOW1 or DOW2 but considering Tier 2 units and 3 units does not really costs that much than Tier 1 units, they are way powerful and player has not much reason to use Tier 1 units on late game. (unless you plan to spam them unitl the end of the game) Would be nice if we could improve this?

Weird mine mechanism
There are some mines and objects in this game (cluster mine, commando mine, Squigs), It works weird.
Even if your units detect them, they don't shoot insight and they just walk over it and get killed if don't actually order them to shoot it.

When you cast spell or skills on them, they just dies away (ASM jumps destroy mines, but ASMs don't get damage from it)
Don't we have to fix this? or is this intended to be so?

• make mines and objects auto attacked by units when detected
• don't let mines and squigs die by randon skill shots (skill shot immune I say?)

Ratata

Adding more

MISC

• Infantry upgrades costs power,which is an rare resource compared to req. but it seems to show low efficiency considering the thing you have to give up (tier, tanks)
• Global skills(Rokk, Oribital, Storm) are too powerful and it drags the late game play if spammed, cost increase, or extra cost per use is recommended?
• Workers too Handy (recon, capture, detection, melee ranged units) nerf please?
• Doctrines seem imbalanced, some are underpowered and some are overpowered (needs long term observation)
• Active doctrines seem way too powerful compared to passives, and too much micro control is required to use them well (game too complicated)
• Certain crowd control spams are hard to counter (non stop truck jump, or stun grenade spam) the effects should wear off fast or have no effect when spammed too much on same units

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UI and Ingame functions

• Ping hotkey is too uncomfortable. Mid mouse button or Ctrl+direction would work well with this (like other MOBA games)
• Can't select units on the edge of the screen, occasionally.
• The camera doesn't moves to center when double tapping group key(F1, F2,F3 for elites) (1~9 with normal units)
• Mouse and Hotkey often doesn't works (often happens when you have alt+ tapped out of the game once or twice)
• Free Camera Control. Well like Duh? (I saw the custom script, but I want it officially supported)
• Observer Mode
• Replay mode
• Add hotkey for synchronized skill cast (when pressed with ctrl, all units use skill to the pointed direction at same time)
• UI with bad visibility? make resource and its upkeep more visible. Hard to ping. no BGM for multiplayer while you have such good ones in campaign?
• Better unit selection (selected units are NOT visible enough to know what I picked)
• Hotkey Customization (lemme fix my hotkey)
• Let us meet people from different continents. Current ping based matching prohibits us meeting people from different places. Shrinking player pool makes it hard for us to play games.

Ratata

SPACE MARINES

Servitor
While Orc and Eldar can easily gain bush infiltration due to teleport and sneak ability, which provides them with ever lasting vision until it dies. Skull probe seems to provide limited recon which makes it hard for SM user to gain early to late game intel compared to its peers. (ofc. SM do have scouts but they cost about 200 req which makes it hard to spam all over the field like workers)

• make skull probes provide vision in small area like Eldar rangers with shorter duration and area?

TAC Marines
I know that Dev team is having a close look with this guys so I won't comment that much about them.

• punishing reinforce cost when equipped with war gear
• over priced flamer and plasma gun price compared to its efficiency and usage
• frag grande does too little job for taking a whole doctrine slot(or ASM leap is too OP?)

Las Cannon Team
While its counter part Orc Tank Bustas and Eldar Specters have decent anti-armor capabilities, Las Cannon Team has rather bad efficiency due to its damage increase by time passive. Specters has the same passive but they can move while shooting, which lets it keep its focus on same unit while evading enemy melee units trying to close in.

Most of the people suggested to change their attack type into one strong charged blast, just like Las Cannon mounted Predator (ofc. it should be weaker than 3rd tier unit)

Assault Marines
HOT POTATO ALERT. I'm pretty sure everyone is noticed with recent ASM spams. But we think this is because TAC marines not viable option in early stage of the game. Everyone is just massing these guys as they are ++heresy redacted++ efficient. Its assault leap is lethal to any tier 1 Orc squads, and it just slashes any Eldar unit who lost its shield. Also, it's backdoor with power sword is very lethal to objects(shield, turret) There are few things that we suggest to apply. (Not all of this must be applied but could consider some of them as a viable option)

• add something like "Building Armor" so the objects are not so squishy until the mid to late game siege units are out.
• make them buy power sword for each squad
• make the leap into presence doctrine for somewhat lower tier elite (don't you think its weird that ranged based Elite provides this doctrine?)
• add channeling to the leap just like the jump so the opponent could at least do something about it, instead of just getting chopped

MISC

• Dreadnought TOO STRONK: This is not an mainstream opinion but some say, in late game multiple Dreadnought dropped in the middle of army is hard to counter.
• Isn't Solaria's melee too weak compared to other Late game 9+ Elites? Is this intended so?
• Predator Annihilator may need AI fix? it shoots target on sight but considering it's low fire rate won't this guy prioritize enemy armor?

Ratata

ORKS

Boys, Shoota Boys
They die off really quick compared to SM and Eldar units. I know they have relatively high DPS, but it is almost impossible to do enough damage to enemy before you lose most of your gits. This makes Cripples Ork activity on early stage of the game.

Ork Armor
Some mechshop units seems expensive for its full price (DeffKopta, DeffDread) but they are good or OP when spammed with scraps.

• Could fix scrap build price and buff those units?

Weird boy too STRONK
Everyone knows that our 3 point mage is doing way powerful things compared to its cost.
But relic knows this issue so won't talk much about it.

MISC

• Nobz taunt forcing Ranged units don't seem right. Should make ranged units shoot at them instead running melee into them.
• Easy Truck -> Nob -> Taunt -> Fist in the face Combo
• Some Ork armor are too expensive for full price (Deffkopta, DeffDread) but Okay when spammed late game. (hard to survive tier 2~3 until escalation provides bigger metals)
• Too much damage from Stormboyz trukk Doctrine?

Ratata

ELDAR

The Webway and Battle Focus
Yes this is the key function of Eldar but often looks very unfair. While fighting Eldar, they don't lose a single model until the shield runs out, and webways lets them run away when in disadvantage. It is understandable concept but it is way too powerful on early stage of the game.

DA's keep out range and damage SM and Orks models without suffering much damage. Which grants the map control to Eldar.
You can't run away from the Banshees but they do run away from you.

We understand this is very important characteristic for Eldar, but this is way too much for now.
Followings are our suggesting options.

• Decreased Shield regen rate
• Maintain shield regen rate, but should be near the webway (about reinforce)
• lower the shield ratio compared to health (make it HP > shield)
• make shield count for each model not for the whole team

Bone Singer
Too much utility. This worker can teleport into mid capture point and finish capturing it when the other race's worker reach the point. Looks very unfair on early stage of the game. Also the teleport safely into the bushes for good vision.

• Start teleport CD when the units is out.
• cannot teleport into not visible location

Scorpion Team
Seems like this units are doing too much damage on Objects. As we talked it over Making crit damage not working on buildings would suffice.
And we wonder if the damage buff from hunt is intended, there is no actual text about that, but the DPS actually increases.

Wraith Guard
As a walker, the fact that they can suffer model loss and slow speed is a turn down for WGs, they are still very powerful anit-tank units.
Some people think that they are little over powered by following reason.

• Hard do counter when spammed
• Rift Blast makes it counter everything

Ranger
Spam hard to counter. This is not much a problem in 1v1 but when in 2v2 and 3v3, you can ask your teamate to go defensive until you spam rangers.
which are very powerful due to its stealth and far LOS.

• Hard do counter when spammed
• should have longer delay returning stealth after combat (like scouts) OR should take longer time when installing/removing their weapons

Warp Spider
Not worth the cost, While Cost 3~4 Eldar units shows superb nuking and utility, Warp spider is just an squad with high DPS. Short range makes spiders vulnerable from enemy attacks and Kyre with same cost shows much more powerful abilities. Wraith Lord with just ahead there requiring 2 more elite points.

Fire Prism
We don't get it. shooting while moving looks like a good option but not sure if this is worth 375 powers. Why not get 2 more WGs for that?

I am sorry for the spam but it took few days for us to gather up this much.

kesuga7

Wow thats what i call feedback (Even if i disagree on some points)
Most threads its just a rant for a single issue but this is pretty detailed

Wardemon

While I can find a lot I don't agree with here I respect the detailed and constructive format. More feedback like this from the community and less feedback with very little thought put into it please.
I really like the idea about possibly scaling skill shots with escalation phases to even out hero power curve a bit. Have to be careful with it tho so as to not make higher elite point cost heroes diminish in effectiveness compared to low elite point heroes who come early and get scaled up late game to be strong all around.

vindicarex

Yes, agree with most of the identification of problem areas. I like the various suggestions they listed (but by no means exhaustive).

I just want to note that Ork Trukk sotrmboy doctrine (Kamakazee) is wayyyy to powerful - noramlly a stormboy at least loses a model to utilize this powerful ability. But the trukk casts it for free every 30 seconds, for each trukk.
Some suggestions:

• increase CD to 60 seconds
• Much less damage (maybe 50% reduction).
• Other prohibitive prerequisites (e.g. only Trukks with a stromboy squad can use the ability, and the stormboyz must be in the trukk for at least 5 seconds before activation).

Personally, I'd make builders not able to capture points (given the immense utility they provide, and very low cost, as stated in the thread). This would lessen their early game impact of capping the entire map while encouraging the production of units to fight! This mechanic is also more like DoW1 and DoW2, where only fighting units could capture points.

redScare

Greetings from Europe! And great feedback guys!!

Myself I agree with like 90% of your comments. And the other 10% are minor things like the Dread.

Seem to me Relic did not have a clear vision as to what to do regarding detectors, so they ended up stuffing the role into builders. I understand that making scout/rangers detect as well would be way too much as they have huge vision and stealth, but I've never quite liked that builders are the designated detectors.

faecalstorm

@Ratata said:

• Let us meet people from different continents. Current ping based matching prohibits us meeting people from different places. Shrinking player pool makes it hard for us to play games.

This it is a lot harder to get a game since the patch and I didn't even notice any lag issue's before the patch (NZ)

Slippers

Agree on a lot of this.

True damage either shouldn't be easily acquirable in the early game, or the rewards for objective kills should be reduced to prevent massive advantage gain. Pretty much what everyone is already saying about the Striking Scorpions being too powerful in this regard, as their crit does double and true damage to boot, something attached to an already stellar unit.

A lot of doctrines are definitely too powerful to an obvious degree, ASM leap, the plethora of straight upgrades to DA's, etc. Would be nice to see these toned down or changed to something more interesting gameplay wise rather than passive buffs to already reliable units.

Can attest to a lot of the balance points for Eldar.
- Rangers in team games are still a menace, maybe a slight increase in power cost would deter spam strats, as
it would delay T.2/tech more. Say 5 additional power?
- Fire prisms, considering they are the most expensive power unit in the game, and a T.3 unit to boot, are woefully disappointing. I think just extra damage on the initial blast would be good enough to fix this, either that or a reduction in power cost by 25 power or so.
- I personally would rather see bonesingers stay untouched initially, as they are such a fun unit to use, but can understand the grievances. Maybe an increased cooldown on the warp?
- And the webway gate issue I believe would be mostly fixed by nerfing the Wraithlord Command Doctrine, as this is the main source of contention really; the degree to which this doctrine attached to an already good elite massively improves the Eldar early game. Perhaps keep the T.1 relocate the doctrine currently grants, but remove the health regeneration and reduce/remove the cooldown reduction (does that even make sense?) to punish sloppy micro with the gates and increase likelihood that an opponent can take it out before it jumps away to safety.

redScare

Bonesingers should have the teleport start on cooldown (or half-cooldown at least) when built (and the starting one too). Aggressive usage of bonesingers to deny your enemy from capping his starting points is a freaking bad joke. Using them (or stealthed gretchings, though those you can see if you have your own detector) to tie ranged teams in melee is another bad joke too, especially as SM cannot do that and the game is obviously NOT balanced around that mechanic.

motiv

I've said it from the start, we need to level up units to make basic tier 1 that survive late game a decent squad. Maybe squad leaders at T3 also.

redScare

@motiv said:
I've said it from the start, we need to level up units to make basic tier 1 that survive late game a decent squad. Maybe squad leaders at T3 also.

Nope. That would just create a bigger snowball effect against the player that loses an early squad or two and comebacks are hard enough already. The game is designed around losing whole squads, and that's penalty enough already (both in resources and time to rebuild) without giving a buff to the enemy squads that survived via veterancy. Now, squad leaders in T2/T3... that would be something

wongtp

i agree with letting these guys play with europe/na. the crying will be even worse. having to play against them multiple games takes a toll on me.

jokes aside, this is spot on. you pointed out everything that is just wrong with the game and the reason why game's stale on release. more often than not, having ur whole army wiped is not good for the player's psyche, especially when weirdboyz does it over and over and over again.

motiv

@redScare said:

@motiv said:
I've said it from the start, we need to level up units to make basic tier 1 that survive late game a decent squad. Maybe squad leaders at T3 also.

Nope. That would just create a bigger snowball effect against the player that loses an early squad or two and comebacks are hard enough already. The game is designed around losing whole squads, and that's penalty enough already (both in resources and time to rebuild) without giving a buff to the enemy squads that survived via veterancy. Now, squad leaders in T2/T3... that would be something

We need a bigger snowball effect. The game doesn't allow for comebacks unless there is a badly done attack on a turret.

Good play, keeping units alive should be promoted.

Turtling should be frowned upon.

It would also speed up the games.

Krupp

@vindicarex said:

Personally, I'd make builders not able to capture points (given the immense utility they provide, and very low cost, as stated in the thread). This would lessen their early game impact of capping the entire map while encouraging the production of units to fight! This mechanic is also more like DoW1 and DoW2, where only fighting units could capture points.

Feels like a huge blow to SM, as Tacs have the longest build time and highest cost of the HQ units. You can hardly afford to build stuff (gens, LPs, tech) while also having enough units to cap points. Two squads cost 800, for the same/similar price Ork and Eldar will outcap you.

Agreed about Bonesinger TP, should start on CD at least.

I really like the idea of shields regenerating only if right next to a Webway/HQ. The other races' units have to stay off the map much longer to reinforce, whereas Eldar not only move faster, but can regain their shields on the go, only compounding the issue. With FoF and mobile Webways they still have a mobility advantage, as they should have, but nowhere near as crippling as it currently is.

redScare

@motiv said:

We need a bigger snowball effect. The game doesn't allow for comebacks unless there is a badly done attack on a turret.

Good play, keeping units alive should be promoted.

Turtling should be frowned upon.

It would also speed up the games.

So your fix for comebacks being hard to pull off is to make them even harder. Yeah, right. Do you realize that means that players will just disconnect after losing the first engagement? What's the point in keep playing if there's no way to comeback from the initial setback? Good thing Relic seems aware of this, cos your suggestion makes no sense.

nerva2940

excellent feedback. the biggest problem in the game right now are ASM's to be honest. they shouldnt be able to wipe a bunch of t1 unit instantly with their leap (which is a ++heresy redacted++ doctrine not even an upgrade), and they shouldnt erase buildings with their power swords so early in the game. power swords should be a t2 upgrade.

HohesHaus

Yeah yeah nerf Eldar and buff everything else, we got it

Not mentioning that Spectres are useless, not mentioning that vyper are useless, ranger Spamm is only good in T1 above it gets useless (and we have to research them), yes FoF is strong but we have to pay 150/30 for a gate. Not realizing that Eldar are scoping very badly in later tiers, because only shield not HP get the upgrade, wraithguards isn't that great because you need webgates to use them

Plz stick to SC2

Paincakes

@Bigamo said:
missed the kila kan IMBA in ork part.

Edit: (True damage spam with HUGE DPS)

When massed they are unstoppable which is really bad design. But I don't know what else Ork is supposed to build late game in 3v3 or 2v2 because the rest of their vehicles are really bad.

RedDevilCG

Great post RATATA. It's good to see that many of the points brought up on these boards are shared internationally as well.

jambai

Good feedback. But

"...like other MOBA games"
shrug.

Stoner

Agree on 99%. Most things posted is exactly how I feel (and majority too, I'm sure of it). All in all, great insight, thanks. Hope Relic will have time to take a look here, there are some very critical things highlighted which I wouldn't like to be ignored in upcoming balance patches.

KotCR

@Krupp said:

@vindicarex said:

Personally, I'd make builders not able to capture points (given the immense utility they provide, and very low cost, as stated in the thread). This would lessen their early game impact of capping the entire map while encouraging the production of units to fight! This mechanic is also more like DoW1 and DoW2, where only fighting units could capture points.

Feels like a huge blow to SM, as Tacs have the longest build time and highest cost of the HQ units. You can hardly afford to build stuff (gens, LPs, tech) while also having enough units to cap points. Two squads cost 800, for the same/similar price Ork and Eldar will outcap you.

There is ways around this.

Take the DoW2 approach - make Tactical Marines cap points faster than other units.
Roll this into an increased out-of-combat movement speed for Tacticals without needing a doctrine to do it, and it should be enough to make-up for this weakness (instead, make the doctrine give them that movement speed bonus in combat too!).

The other option would be to make Tacticals able to Drop Pod anywhere on the map, even places without vision, although this might have further-reaching repercussions in the later stages of the game (as then you could use Tactical Squads to chain-drop other units behind enemy lines).

Larkis

i think bonesingers could be easly nerved that they just can teleport on positions where the player or an ally has vision. So you still can use the advanatages of teleport them around or inside the enemy, but you cant go so agressive with them.

Ekko_Tek

Great feedback, hopefully Relic is reading. Only points I disagree on are nerfing workers (I like that they have a lot of utility and relevance besides just building - only thing needing a change is bonesinger should start with tele on cooldown) and dreads in drop pods (this is the whole point of the SM faction ability - element of surprise - and it does have a downside in that it takes longer to build anything for a drop pod).

Ratata

Thank you for all those opinions, and my god.... my text is full of typos and grammar errors....