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Lets Talk About Warp Spiders!
4 years ago
nerva2940
in their current state, I would use them if they cost 3 elite points. they would be quite strong in late T1 and early T2. their one ability that is supposed to make them viable in late game are the mines. we can make an argument they are strong, as they melt giant elites due to their percentage-based, scaling damage. but when put into practice, their detonation range is way too small and appears unreliable. lastly, in late game, Warp Spiders just dont do enough damage to, well, anything. so in summary:
PROS
- mobility
- their 4-point teleport that slows
- decent damage against starting units and other elites
CONS
- way too expensive for what they do
- mines are unreliable due to their extremely long arming time, and small activation radius
- don't scale well into late game
- the teleportation mechanic is extremely unwieldly in this micro-heavy game. I would remove this completely.
Some proposed changes...
- if everything is kept as is, Warp Spiders should cost 3 elite points. If I'm waiting till 5, then I might as well wait till 7 or even 9. there isn't a strategic advantage to getting these guys at any single point in the game, like when you drop Macha, Scorps and WL. These guys have the power to change the outcome of a battle, but Warp Spiders can't swing outcomes in your favor, no matter when you drop them
- for 5 elite points, I want +30% damage, -50% mine activation time, and +50% mine activation radius (maybe at the cost of longer CD). If we're going with mines and not bombs like in DoW2, then they need to area-deny, almost completely. in their current state, it's way too easy to go around them, and even when theyre triggered (unless on a giant elite) they dont really make a difference.
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Comments
nerva2940
if I'm missing something really significant about this hero, please let me know. I'm aware of the doctrines that improve the Fire Prism, but lets be real - even when fully decked out with doctrines, the WP sucks and is almost never used due to its insane power cost. I just don't equip Warp Spiders for their interaction with the Fire Prism. it's too micro-intensive, WP just doesn't do enough damage in its current state, and it melts in under 2-3 seconds with one wrong move.
Kharneth
It's a Fire Prism and it gets bonus damage after it teleports and can also teleport out of combat, instead.
I like Warp Spiders. They'd be OP at 3 elite points. They're underused and a boost to their mines would be nice, though, I think they should have their haywire grenades back so they can teleport in to throw armor-piercing grenades at vehicles or structures and then teleport out.
nerva2940
oh yeah, Fire Prism, I knew that lol. I'm aware of the doctrine bonus, i just dont think it's very practical. unless youre way ahead or something, at which point anything works.
+1 to Haywire grenades...really miss that. I'm finding the mines super underwhelming.
Kharneth
@nerva2940 yeah the fire prism teleporter didn't really come in handy for me. They only get 1 shot off during the damage boost anyway. If Fire Prisms were better it might make the Warp Spider's doctrines more useful.
The mines seem good but they just aren't reliable.
Silveran
Warp spiders are pretty awkward with their current use. They excel at destroying basic infantry, while providing some utility, overall they feel about equal to most 4 point elites. The problem comes when you start looking at the Eldar elite situation.
3 pt Elite: Macha + Ronny both excel at killing normal armor targets while being squishy
4 pt Elite: Jain Zar excels at killing low health or normal armor targets...while being squishy
5 pt Elite: Warp spiders...............excel at killing infantry while being squishy, comes out late. Has some utility, but overall only excels at killing infantry.
5 pt Elite: Kyre excels at killing infantry with his wind, also moderately tanky compared to previous eldar elites, but still not tanky overall. Can hurt heavy armor thanks to true damage attack and the plasma grenade combo. Has good late game scaling thanks to wind pull
Just looking at this picture the pattern seems clear. Really I don't even see how warp spiders fit and whoever decided they should take a traditional tanky, anti-armor unit and make it the exact opposite messed up.
Really their entire stats/role makes no sense in this game. Warp spiders are supposed to be tanky, they are literally the hardiest of aspects with the heaviest of armor. They are slow, hence they can teleport. Their weaponry is also quite strong, excelling verse heavy armor. Somehow in DoW3 they are literally the opposite of their stats in every aspect, hurting the Eldar arsenal.
Larkis
I think that is the Problem wit the warpspiders. They dont have a place and role to fill.
KotCR
I think they are okay, if you take them on their own merits, but I agree, they are a little on the expensive side for what they do when they are finally affordable.
I second lowering their Elite Point cost to 3, but, they would be too strong that early, so to counterbalance - they'd also need their health reduced, making them more comparable to other low-cost ranged elites (right now they have more total health than Striking Scorpions, for example, and those guys are melee). Especially considering their incredible mobility, they would have to be more on the fragile side of things, like Jonah.
The Teleport ability might need to be toned down too, to compensate for them being able to come out much earlier. Perhaps having it scale with Tier. 2 ports T1, 3 ports T2, 4 ports T3.
Shampoo
When people get more comfortable with the game they will either saying 5 points perfect or they are to cheap, they are awesome for supporting your army and an amazing unit as a finisher if someone tries to pull back important units and they allow you fake an attack but still get them to where you really need to push with their jumps, also their doctrine is great for end game.
Ekko_Tek
Kyre is insanely strong compared to WS - not even remotely comparable in strength. Either WS need a buff or reduce them to 4 pts.
Connatic
Pretty sure thier guns were always anti-light infantry. High strength but low armor piercing. It was Fire Dragons that had the armor piercing.
I think people need to make better use out of the teleport wormholes to get the full value out of them.
nerva2940
well that's what I thought as well, but after using them quite a bit (lvl 8 currently from MP alone), I have to say I just haven't found a use for these portals. They are very situational at best. I think the mechanic should definitely stay, as players will get the hang of it over time. But the baseline unit simply doesnt cut it for its current cost.
Silveran
What you are saying may of been the case in the previous DoW (I honestly don't remember my older DoW experiences), but from lore its quite off the mark.
Warp spiders were originally really good AV. GW changed them some, removing their higher AV capabilities, but making them DEVASTATING vs heavily armored slow targets. Hilariously the current tabletop iteration of warp spiders is ABSOLUTELY terrible against light infantry.
nerva2940
Spiders from DoW2 were godly, being extremely strong against all infantry and potent against vehicles with their Haywire grenades. WS in DoW3 simply aren't effective against vehicles due to how unreliable mines are. give their heavy cost, I feel their DPS could use a 15-20% boost against infantry.
Connatic
I was talking old Table Top rules. Warp Spinners being good against soft targets, with Haywire grenades being AV. I have no idea how different the current rule set is. Which is why we shouldn't get too bent out of shape about the lore, when GW messes with it more than Relic anyways.
I agree though, they do feel like a tough Elite to get value out of as a 5-drop. They really are more of a support Elite. With thier mines and wormhole. They don't have any high damage instant wombo combos or the tankiness to be a vanguard unit. IF i were to buff them, I'd give them some more health.
Svanh
That might be a bit nasty given that they get double damage after teleporting and already massacre infantry. The issue with Warp Spiders is that they do the same thing as most other Eldar elites (kill infantry) but are ineffective against vehicles and arrive at roughly the same time. Their mines are good but they don't have any other utility (Webways are better for teleportation, doctrines are for underpowered units).
If it didn't end up too broken, I'd advocate reducing their DPS and giving them true damage. Their teleportation range could be buffed instead but that could create its own problems.