@RedDevilCG said:
I never thought the idea behind Webway gates was to have them on leash to follow around your units from time 0:00. If that was the case, then just get rid of them and give permanent FoF to Eldar. The idea was that you would have to venture outside of the Webway bubble to attack, and then on the retreat you would boost away once you re-entered the Webway gate bubble. Hopefully, your shield management was good, so you never lost a model. Meanwhile a complete wipe, forced retreat, or a couple enemy models were lost on the other side from winning the attrition war. Rinse repeat. Of course aggressive Webway placement could be an option, but it would also be a risk that could be punished.
Then in Tier 2, larger army pushes with a teleporting Webway gate could start to happen.
I think Eldar just got addicted to almost always having FoF active with Tier 1 teleporting Webway gates, and now the withdrawal symptoms are kicking in.
There is no way i would consider eldar units balanced if they didnt have access to fleet of foot constantly. I did say they should work for it. Aggressive webway networking is fine because your opponent can punish it and it directly rewards success. Constantly finding ways to build webway gates forward is where the learning curve is at right now.
Teleporting tier 1 webway is universally reviled. But there is not a single moment youd catch me dead with any units floating outta webway. Its the only way to safely attack your opponents. Without break away speed when those SM, or even worse orks, lock lines and fight back you best believe you're dead if you cant back up faster then them.
But 1 Webway covers around... 15% of map? So, for 300 req and 60 (!!) energy, you have 30% of map, where you can move or fight. You cannot afford more or you will be outteched.
If you are slow, you cant kite ore run. If you cant kite, you cant fight against mele. If you cant run and cant fight, you die and you lose. It's just that Edar outside of webway will be overrun by Boyz hordes or burned easily by Flamer.
You cant even hit & run, because enemy genes are usually too farm from your webway and with your movement speed being LOWEST (LOWEST AS ELDAR WTF!!!) enemy will be faster than you can run back.
@Victor_Magnus said:
That said, obviously there are still more tweaks to be made, as many have pointed out. Though one might consider also that races like Eldar- which are not a straight forward tank and spank faction, require more micro intensive strategies to win out over their competition. The fact that this balance patch has forced players to stop expecting their cheaper units to necessarily win out over other more expensive units is a step in the right direction. As many have pointed out, this game favors balance base on hard counters, and is the basis of having a diverse army. If you're worried about Tac's and flamers, invest hard into power and rush tier two and counter attack with a truck or falcon. If you wan't to go toe to toe with those flamers early on, engage in melee and drop grenades, stuns, or taunts, to neutralize their ability. The other factions have them without doctrines and on most their early-mid game elites for a reason.
You do realize that SM will get all the map controll before you reach T2? Falcon is behind a huge energy wall, while SM only needs to invest a small part of it, to counter your whole T1 units? One miss-click and your whole army is gone because of flamer. And the funny thing is, your flamer doesn't get interrupted when tied up into CC which is totaly dumb. No you NEED DA's to counter flamers with grenade, buuuut they need to get into flamer range to fire. It feels like that they only last 3-4 seconds inside the flamer and they're dead. Considering that the grenade has a flight-time of 3 seconds until it hits the ground, you have to sacrifice a DA squad to disrupt the flamer.
I'm talking opening 2minutes- the first engagement. Webway is often being built depending on how aggressive I or they have opted to be.
I agree the solution is to be patient - necessarily conservative with your webway placing and pick a fight with battle focus.
I'm just not sure that this interaction combined with Eldars actually very static early game is a good place for the balance to be at. It just stems around the extremes of being inside and outside of the webway gate being too great.
Outside you are ran down very easily and can be punished heavily for just being 'slightly' out of position because you have the worst maneuverability with of any race and in t1 your only crowd control is dire avenger grenades and to a lesser extent banshee screams(decent granted and for free but compared to the stacks from the competition it begins to look meagre in fact even in t2 you don't gain any additional crowd control outside of elite choices and vipers).
Inside of webway gates this is less of an issue because you have a decent chance of dodging opponents skillshots and can trade evenly.
...that all probably goes without saying but the result is that Eldar are too limited to playing inside their webway radius in my opinion. This means that hit and run or diversion tactics that should be the bread and butter of Eldar game play are high risk and too easily punished when compared to other races.
Asm easily rush in get some damage on undefended generators and jump out with a relatively high chance of escape. Same is true with truck micro.
Eldar need webways to do this which means they need to spend resources outside of their army and maintain map control unless they want their webways destroyed (a very costly loss). Combined, this makes those kind of hit and run tactics harder to execute and higher risk for Eldar...which I'd have thought is the opposite of what is intended.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really mind, you can play with it and make it work and Eldar aren't woefully under powered...its just this dynamic doesn't seem quite right to me.
@RedDevilCG yeah I completely agree - I would like to see aome actual values too because it's hard to gauge by eye (I just know I've seen Scorpions outside of Battle focus moving at a snail's pace...lithe and agile Eldar my arse).
I think a lot of people are still reacting to what they thought got nerfed for eldar vs what the actual changes are. The confusion with the initial patch notes was a big part of it.
DA got a range decrease and the shield doctrine was toned down a little bit. Also now webway gates can't warp in tier 1. Some people admitted they were commenting here about this being too much before even playing the game since the patch.
I would like to know is DA range now the same as shoota and tacs?
Note that the max model hit count change from unlimited to 5 models for many AOE abilities is also a buff to Eldar DA; not just Orks. They have 6 models in a squad so that limits the maximum amount of damage they will take from a full nuke. All those abilities are still doing full damage to SM units as they are 5 models or less.
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
@Hellhound said:
So heres a thought why not just remove the power cost on webways.
Because we want to make losing webway punishable.
I would just increase webways range for FoF and lower range for shields regeneration - so that would make Hit&Run strategy most profitable, because you would have to run near Webway to regen shields after short fight.
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
@Hellhound said:
So heres a thought why not just remove the power cost on webways.
Because we want to make losing webway punishable.
I would just increase webways range for FoF and lower range for shields regeneration - so that would make Hit&Run strategy most profitable, because you would have to run near Webway to regen shields after short fight.
Losing 150 req may not be a big deal but build time and risk went into setting up that webway. Further more its destruction immediately puts any fight you get into now immediately at your disadvantage. Thats hugely punishing for losing a mere 150 point structure.
@RedDevilCG said:
Note that the max model hit count change from unlimited to 5 models for many AOE abilities is also a buff to Eldar DA; not just Orks. They have 6 models in a squad so that limits the maximum amount of damage they will take from a full nuke. All those abilities are still doing full damage to SM units as they are 5 models or less.
If I understand the system right, it hasn't changed anything for SM
No, with crazy req income Eldar will spam Webways all over the map, and they still have 600 hp, while SM doesn't have to kill buildings so fast on T1 anymore. Do not underestimate +50% permanent speed boost.
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
@Hellhound said:
So heres a thought why not just remove the power cost on webways.
Because we want to make losing webway punishable.
I would just increase webways range for FoF and lower range for shields regeneration - so that would make Hit&Run strategy most profitable, because you would have to run near Webway to regen shields after short fight.
Losing 150 req may not be a big deal but build time and risk went into setting up that webway. Further more its destruction immediately puts any fight you get into now immediately at your disadvantage. Thats hugely punishing for losing a mere 150 point structure.
You forgot the 30 energy that is needed to build a WWG
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
@Hellhound said:
So heres a thought why not just remove the power cost on webways.
Because we want to make losing webway punishable.
I would just increase webways range for FoF and lower range for shields regeneration - so that would make Hit&Run strategy most profitable, because you would have to run near Webway to regen shields after short fight.
Losing 150 req may not be a big deal but build time and risk went into setting up that webway. Further more its destruction immediately puts any fight you get into now immediately at your disadvantage. Thats hugely punishing for losing a mere 150 point structure.
You forgot the 30 energy that is needed to build a WWG
You missed the earlier post. The suggestion was removing the energy cost. Furthermore webways still have build times to limit spam, and overlapping hidden webways isnt spam its strategy. Eldar units must be inside that radius to be competitive that is not in question. Giving then tools to do that is not a buff its faction mechanics.
Though teleporting tier 1 way to do it was ++heresy redacted++ horse ++heresy redacted++
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
Tactical Marines, Boyz, and Dire Avengers all have 6 speed.
@Victor_Magnus said:
That said, obviously there are still more tweaks to be made, as many have pointed out. Though one might consider also that races like Eldar- which are not a straight forward tank and spank faction, require more micro intensive strategies to win out over their competition. The fact that this balance patch has forced players to stop expecting their cheaper units to necessarily win out over other more expensive units is a step in the right direction. As many have pointed out, this game favors balance base on hard counters, and is the basis of having a diverse army. If you're worried about Tac's and flamers, invest hard into power and rush tier two and counter attack with a truck or falcon. If you wan't to go toe to toe with those flamers early on, engage in melee and drop grenades, stuns, or taunts, to neutralize their ability. The other factions have them without doctrines and on most their early-mid game elites for a reason.
But with regards to predators, please consider the fact that one- they are a TIER 3 ANTI-PERSONNEL unit. A falcon is a Tier 2, and butchers infantry squads with it's small aoe but high rate of fire. The predator destructor is behind a 425 power research wall on top of it's 275 power cost. By this point in the game, if you are relying on blobs of anti armor infantry, and don't space them properly or scout for their increased range, you sort of deserve to have your squads obliterated. By this point in the game, you have nearly reached Elite point 9 units (at least if 3v3), and have access to long range true damage fire prisms, multiple wraithguard, or artillery trucks. Never mind the armored unit counters like Killer Kans and Wraithguard with scouts. Before a squad of wraithguard would almost be guaranteed to one up the Predator, and they weren't a Tier 3 unit.
the thing with flamers is that, the front loan damage due to aoe is huge, too big, effects are instant and often too damaging.
theres nothing wrong with everything else except the aoe affecting all models and dishing out instant huge sustained damage.. they cast it really fast, channeling is immune to meleeing it down. heres the problem. because of the instant damage and slow, there leaves very little reaction time to your suggestions. by the time you can get a boyz to hit them with stun, the squad that is being flamed is usually as good as dead. same with nades landing by the time the nade lands, more often than not ,the dire/boyz/shootas are already close to dead, pulling them out would matter not because basic attacks are going to kill them off.
while i understand t2 being a natural counter, with nobz and wartrukks, boyz and shootas need a chance to get out of the ability regardless, especially when caught at max range.
then on to predators. they are not only anti infantry, they are also effective against armor. while i agree that they are not the most specialized anti armor unit, with enough of them, they can put a dent into incoming enemy armor. the thing with anti infantry is that it was anti infantry before, why is it more effective now? ther's nothing i mentioned about blobs, preds, 2-3 shot spaced out infantry squads. Because the aoe is larger now combined with how tighly infantry models are spaced out in a squad, pred shots can easily catch 4-5 models and more, resulting in 2-3 shots. this is also seen in heavy infantry builds, nobz take massive massive damage from 2-3 pred shots and are forced to run away after losing 3-4 models, that is 120power down the drain, that loss is huge. do you not see that the per shot is a legitimate concern?
i agree preds should counter infantry, but not at this rate. preds should not have enough dps to blast away an infantry squad in 2-3 shots, pull back for repairs from any possible return fire from lascannons, tankbustas, killacans and wg, which would probably only let off a volley that is fairly ineffective in countering armor since repairs are free and preds have more health now.
@RedDevilCG said:
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
Tactical Marines, Boyz, and Dire Avengers all have 6 speed.
But boyz have thier shout + slow + stun and TSM has fire in move with doctrine and stronger mele. So still no kiting.
The only good thing about this patch for me - now it feels so much more delightful to pwn SM against all odds. Thanks for skill increase Relic - since the patch came out, I lost 0 games lol. It reminds me again of COH2, when they nerfed Soviets to oblivion, and every match was a f*cking heroic battle for survival against relentless German armor with only conscripts on your side. Ah, the memories...
This post should be pinned. @RedDevilCG got it, the way that Eldar was supposed to be played...Ppl have to stop complaining Eldar is completely balanced the game is running so fast now the early game is not as important as it was .SM can really use a couple of nerfs but thats about it. The game is actually neat now if we got a spectator mode...
@RedDevilCG said:
I never thought the idea behind Webway gates was to have them on leash to follow around your units from time 0:00. If that was the case, then just get rid of them and give permanent FoF to Eldar. The idea was that you would have to venture outside of the Webway bubble to attack, and then on the retreat you would boost away once you re-entered the Webway gate bubble. Hopefully, your shield management was good, so you never lost a model. Meanwhile a complete wipe, forced retreat, or a couple enemy models were lost on the other side from winning the attrition war. Rinse repeat. Of course aggressive Webway placement could be an option, but it would also be a risk that could be punished.
Then in Tier 2, larger army pushes with a teleporting Webway gate could start to happen.
I think Eldar just got addicted to almost always having FoF active with Tier 1 teleporting Webway gates, and now the withdrawal symptoms are kicking in.
That is because as Eldar we NEED FoF active at all times. Without it our units are literal trash. The changes to webways have made Eldar into a defensive, passive faction by necessity. Which is the complete opposite of what the Eldar should be as a faction.
@Deathmaw said:
That is because as Eldar we NEED FoF active at all times. Without it our units are literal trash. The changes to webways have made Eldar into a defensive, passive faction by necessity. Which is the complete opposite of what the Eldar should be as a faction.
That might be true. Players like Cataclaw and Bikerush are still killing it with Eldar. Their games aren't over by their opponents surrendering at the 6-12 minute mark anymore with 85%+ winrates, but maybe that's more healthy for the game? I'm saying they adapted. Cataclaw in particular is using almost every unit in the Eldar arsenal now except banshees. The games are much more entertaining, and their win % is still over 70% last I checked.
Tune into their streams and it might increase your win rate.
Keep in mind that those are top players and they struggle to have good openings against people who play worse.
All the games of Cataclaw are pretty much defensive, all he do is bait people into dark reapers and yet it doesn't work very well, he always get fucked hard when other player attack from other side of the map.
Bike doesn't even play Eldar since patch
Sure you still can win but you need to sweat way more than other player and you aren't allowed to make any error.
Also Vidicarex's streams are way better to learn something as he don't abuse OP stuff in all his games.
Keep in mind that those are top players and they struggle to have good openings against people who play worse.
All the games of Cataclaw are pretty much defensive, all he do is bait people into dark reapers and yet it doesn't work very well, he always get fucked hard when other player attack from other side of the map.
Bike doesn't even play Eldar since patch
Sure you still can win but you need to sweat way more than other player and you aren't allowed to make any error.
Also Vidicarex's streams are way better to learn something as he don't abuse OP stuff in all his games.
Bikerush stopped using Eldar a lot before the patch dropped. He couldn't get games because his win rate was like 97% and he had a 100 game win-streak going because the Eldar we so broken. He chose SM for a challenge because he said they were the worst faction prior-patch. He still uses Eldar after the patch. He was giving Cataclaw tips on Eldar doctrines.
Cataclaw is getting matched against equal level opponents and winning, it's dishonest to say he wins because he plays against bad players. The reason it takes so long for him to get a game is because matchmaker is matching him up with good players. He's played against Supersasian and beat him. Supersasian is #2 SM player. If both people are struggling and he still wins, then I'd say Eldar aren't broken. Or are Eldar only balanced if you don't need to struggle with them?
@Deathmaw said:
That is because as Eldar we NEED FoF active at all times. Without it our units are literal trash. The changes to webways have made Eldar into a defensive, passive faction by necessity. Which is the complete opposite of what the Eldar should be as a faction.
That might be true. Players like Cataclaw and Bikerush are still killing it with Eldar. Their games aren't over by their opponents surrendering at the 6-12 minute mark anymore with 85%+ winrates, but maybe that's more healthy for the game? I'm saying they adapted. Cataclaw in particular is using almost every unit in the Eldar arsenal now except banshees. The games are much more entertaining, and their win % is still over 70% last I checked.
Tune into their streams and it might increase your win rate.
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.
Menu
Comments
Hellhound
There is no way i would consider eldar units balanced if they didnt have access to fleet of foot constantly. I did say they should work for it. Aggressive webway networking is fine because your opponent can punish it and it directly rewards success. Constantly finding ways to build webway gates forward is where the learning curve is at right now.
Teleporting tier 1 webway is universally reviled. But there is not a single moment youd catch me dead with any units floating outta webway. Its the only way to safely attack your opponents. Without break away speed when those SM, or even worse orks, lock lines and fight back you best believe you're dead if you cant back up faster then them.
Molek123
But 1 Webway covers around... 15% of map? So, for 300 req and 60 (!!) energy, you have 30% of map, where you can move or fight. You cannot afford more or you will be outteched.
If you are slow, you cant kite ore run. If you cant kite, you cant fight against mele. If you cant run and cant fight, you die and you lose. It's just that Edar outside of webway will be overrun by Boyz hordes or burned easily by Flamer.
You cant even hit & run, because enemy genes are usually too farm from your webway and with your movement speed being LOWEST (LOWEST AS ELDAR WTF!!!) enemy will be faster than you can run back.
HohesHaus
You do realize that SM will get all the map controll before you reach T2? Falcon is behind a huge energy wall, while SM only needs to invest a small part of it, to counter your whole T1 units? One miss-click and your whole army is gone because of flamer. And the funny thing is, your flamer doesn't get interrupted when tied up into CC which is totaly dumb. No you NEED DA's to counter flamers with grenade, buuuut they need to get into flamer range to fire. It feels like that they only last 3-4 seconds inside the flamer and they're dead. Considering that the grenade has a flight-time of 3 seconds until it hits the ground, you have to sacrifice a DA squad to disrupt the flamer.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Castiel @KanKrusha -
These are all sage words.
I'm talking opening 2minutes- the first engagement. Webway is often being built depending on how aggressive I or they have opted to be.
I agree the solution is to be patient - necessarily conservative with your webway placing and pick a fight with battle focus.
I'm just not sure that this interaction combined with Eldars actually very static early game is a good place for the balance to be at. It just stems around the extremes of being inside and outside of the webway gate being too great.
Outside you are ran down very easily and can be punished heavily for just being 'slightly' out of position because you have the worst maneuverability with of any race and in t1 your only crowd control is dire avenger grenades and to a lesser extent banshee screams(decent granted and for free but compared to the stacks from the competition it begins to look meagre in fact even in t2 you don't gain any additional crowd control outside of elite choices and vipers).
Inside of webway gates this is less of an issue because you have a decent chance of dodging opponents skillshots and can trade evenly.
...that all probably goes without saying but the result is that Eldar are too limited to playing inside their webway radius in my opinion. This means that hit and run or diversion tactics that should be the bread and butter of Eldar game play are high risk and too easily punished when compared to other races.
Asm easily rush in get some damage on undefended generators and jump out with a relatively high chance of escape. Same is true with truck micro.
Eldar need webways to do this which means they need to spend resources outside of their army and maintain map control unless they want their webways destroyed (a very costly loss). Combined, this makes those kind of hit and run tactics harder to execute and higher risk for Eldar...which I'd have thought is the opposite of what is intended.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really mind, you can play with it and make it work and Eldar aren't woefully under powered...its just this dynamic doesn't seem quite right to me.
....maybe I'm missing something though?
MaxwellsDaemon
@HohesHaus let us not forget that lascabnon devatsators now veritably shred falcons
RedDevilCG
Where is the data that shows unit speeds? I didn't know that Eldar units are the slowest units in the game, and I'm a little skeptical.
MaxwellsDaemon
@RedDevilCG yeah I completely agree - I would like to see aome actual values too because it's hard to gauge by eye (I just know I've seen Scorpions outside of Battle focus moving at a snail's pace...lithe and agile Eldar my arse).
Numbers would be great.
Wardemon
I think a lot of people are still reacting to what they thought got nerfed for eldar vs what the actual changes are. The confusion with the initial patch notes was a big part of it.
DA got a range decrease and the shield doctrine was toned down a little bit. Also now webway gates can't warp in tier 1. Some people admitted they were commenting here about this being too much before even playing the game since the patch.
I would like to know is DA range now the same as shoota and tacs?
RedDevilCG
Note that the max model hit count change from unlimited to 5 models for many AOE abilities is also a buff to Eldar DA; not just Orks. They have 6 models in a squad so that limits the maximum amount of damage they will take from a full nuke. All those abilities are still doing full damage to SM units as they are 5 models or less.
Hellhound
So heres a thought why not just remove the power cost on webways.
Molek123
i mean compared to TSM or Boyz. Just but in test. Get a friend with tsm squad, but them mele against DA without FoF, and let DA run whole map.
Because we want to make losing webway punishable.
I would just increase webways range for FoF and lower range for shields regeneration - so that would make Hit&Run strategy most profitable, because you would have to run near Webway to regen shields after short fight.
Hellhound
Losing 150 req may not be a big deal but build time and risk went into setting up that webway. Further more its destruction immediately puts any fight you get into now immediately at your disadvantage. Thats hugely punishing for losing a mere 150 point structure.
HohesHaus
If I understand the system right, it hasn't changed anything for SM
Stoner
No, with crazy req income Eldar will spam Webways all over the map, and they still have 600 hp, while SM doesn't have to kill buildings so fast on T1 anymore. Do not underestimate +50% permanent speed boost.
HohesHaus
You forgot the 30 energy that is needed to build a WWG
Hellhound
You missed the earlier post. The suggestion was removing the energy cost. Furthermore webways still have build times to limit spam, and overlapping hidden webways isnt spam its strategy. Eldar units must be inside that radius to be competitive that is not in question. Giving then tools to do that is not a buff its faction mechanics.
Though teleporting tier 1 way to do it was ++heresy redacted++ horse ++heresy redacted++
Svanh
Tactical Marines, Boyz, and Dire Avengers all have 6 speed.
wongtp
the thing with flamers is that, the front loan damage due to aoe is huge, too big, effects are instant and often too damaging.
theres nothing wrong with everything else except the aoe affecting all models and dishing out instant huge sustained damage.. they cast it really fast, channeling is immune to meleeing it down. heres the problem. because of the instant damage and slow, there leaves very little reaction time to your suggestions. by the time you can get a boyz to hit them with stun, the squad that is being flamed is usually as good as dead. same with nades landing by the time the nade lands, more often than not ,the dire/boyz/shootas are already close to dead, pulling them out would matter not because basic attacks are going to kill them off.
while i understand t2 being a natural counter, with nobz and wartrukks, boyz and shootas need a chance to get out of the ability regardless, especially when caught at max range.
then on to predators. they are not only anti infantry, they are also effective against armor. while i agree that they are not the most specialized anti armor unit, with enough of them, they can put a dent into incoming enemy armor. the thing with anti infantry is that it was anti infantry before, why is it more effective now? ther's nothing i mentioned about blobs, preds, 2-3 shot spaced out infantry squads. Because the aoe is larger now combined with how tighly infantry models are spaced out in a squad, pred shots can easily catch 4-5 models and more, resulting in 2-3 shots. this is also seen in heavy infantry builds, nobz take massive massive damage from 2-3 pred shots and are forced to run away after losing 3-4 models, that is 120power down the drain, that loss is huge. do you not see that the per shot is a legitimate concern?
i agree preds should counter infantry, but not at this rate. preds should not have enough dps to blast away an infantry squad in 2-3 shots, pull back for repairs from any possible return fire from lascannons, tankbustas, killacans and wg, which would probably only let off a volley that is fairly ineffective in countering armor since repairs are free and preds have more health now.
Molek123
But boyz have thier shout + slow + stun and TSM has fire in move with doctrine and stronger mele. So still no kiting.
DonDimon
The only good thing about this patch for me - now it feels so much more delightful to pwn SM against all odds. Thanks for skill increase Relic - since the patch came out, I lost 0 games lol. It reminds me again of COH2, when they nerfed Soviets to oblivion, and every match was a f*cking heroic battle for survival against relentless German armor with only conscripts on your side. Ah, the memories...
DmonBlu
This post should be pinned. @RedDevilCG got it, the way that Eldar was supposed to be played...Ppl have to stop complaining Eldar is completely balanced the game is running so fast now the early game is not as important as it was .SM can really use a couple of nerfs but thats about it. The game is actually neat now if we got a spectator mode...
Castiel
Agree with a lot of that @DmonBlu though it's too early to tell what needs tweaks, the game feels really good now.
And I couldn't agree more on an observer/spectator mode, I really would love to see some of these tourneys casted!
RedDevilCG
Yes unfortunately, they will likely have to be casted after the fact through the uploaded replays.
Deathmaw
That is because as Eldar we NEED FoF active at all times. Without it our units are literal trash. The changes to webways have made Eldar into a defensive, passive faction by necessity. Which is the complete opposite of what the Eldar should be as a faction.
Castiel
You are saying that like Web Way Gates don't exist anymore. They do and you can build more than one!
Katitof
Not in BP1 or you'll get out teched and obliterated by fast vehicle/nobz.
RedDevilCG
@Katitof
That might be true. Players like Cataclaw and Bikerush are still killing it with Eldar. Their games aren't over by their opponents surrendering at the 6-12 minute mark anymore with 85%+ winrates, but maybe that's more healthy for the game? I'm saying they adapted. Cataclaw in particular is using almost every unit in the Eldar arsenal now except banshees. The games are much more entertaining, and their win % is still over 70% last I checked.
Tune into their streams and it might increase your win rate.
Fww
Keep in mind that those are top players and they struggle to have good openings against people who play worse.
All the games of Cataclaw are pretty much defensive, all he do is bait people into dark reapers and yet it doesn't work very well, he always get fucked hard when other player attack from other side of the map.
Bike doesn't even play Eldar since patch
Sure you still can win but you need to sweat way more than other player and you aren't allowed to make any error.
Also Vidicarex's streams are way better to learn something as he don't abuse OP stuff in all his games.
RedDevilCG
Bikerush stopped using Eldar a lot before the patch dropped. He couldn't get games because his win rate was like 97% and he had a 100 game win-streak going because the Eldar we so broken. He chose SM for a challenge because he said they were the worst faction prior-patch. He still uses Eldar after the patch. He was giving Cataclaw tips on Eldar doctrines.
Cataclaw is getting matched against equal level opponents and winning, it's dishonest to say he wins because he plays against bad players. The reason it takes so long for him to get a game is because matchmaker is matching him up with good players. He's played against Supersasian and beat him. Supersasian is #2 SM player. If both people are struggling and he still wins, then I'd say Eldar aren't broken. Or are Eldar only balanced if you don't need to struggle with them?
Katitof
Actually, both Cata and Bike are getting rekt hard by equal skill opponent(and given their positions on ladder, there is no such thing as player who greatly outplayes them in terms of skill).
They do fine, because they are better then 95% of the community, not because Eldar are still strong, literally every single unit short of reapers(who aren't that amazing in the first place) and shadow specters were nerfed hard either directly, or indirectly by putting a webway leash on them.
After 10 minutes its ok, but eldar early game is all about harassing generators while avoiding any combat at all costs.