@Svanh said:
Just to add on, only Lootas do full damage across their AOE. Reapers do 0.66 damage and HBDs do 0.33 in radius 5 and 0 over the rest of their area.
Thank you! Was confused on how their AoE mechanics worked and I was wrong about them.
That's still a respectable dps for reapers, but its a bit lacklaster because of the model bleed coupled with the lack of slow. I think boosting their damage to about 9 or 9.25(36-37 DPS) along with the decreased setup time would make them more of a mobile glass cannon they should be. Eldar lack "tanking" units and really can't prolong that dps without moving, unlike the other races. Would make a bit more sense for them.
@Killhippies What model bleed? Dark Rangers have 500 of 800hp as shields. They do full damage until they take 575 damage. Only then do they lose a model.
@RedDevilCG said: @Killhippies What model bleed? Dark Rangers have 500 of 800hp as shields. They do full damage until they take 575 damage. Only then do they lose a model.
They are not more squishy than other setup teams.
Not the reapers themselves, I meant the models of the squads they are attacking dying off. They deal less dps vs squads that have less models because of the aoe effect being the source of the bulk of the damage.
reapers suck vs almost any sm early game unit.
they suck vs devastators and snipers cuz they just have more range. (snipers also more vision too)
they suck vs asm
they suck vs tacts that have any weapon upgrades.
they are okey vs tacs without upgrades tho.
If they would not have to wait until they can shoot or move again, they would acutally be useful units and perfectly fit to the eldar hit and run playstyle.
also keep in mind that there missiles need some time until they hit the target, witch means that the damage is delayed.
only good thing is that they deal true dmg. But as for there role to kill vehicles: lasgun devastators have more range.
on top of all that: sm can get visio for devastators more easy with 200 rec invisible scouts scouts. if u want to have the same vision u need to unlock rangers. (and build them oc) u could use DA for scouting but they have low vison range.
(u can still use worker for scouting like all other races tho)
@RedDevilCG said: @Killhippies What model bleed? Dark Rangers have 500 of 800hp as shields. They do full damage until they take 575 damage. Only then do they lose a model.
They are not more squishy than other setup teams.
I'd argue that suppression and simply murdering enemies does much more for squads survival then shields vs hp.
@Absalon said:
Well i have no problems with Eldar, i win 8 out of 10 matches soooo...
Could you please share your strategies with us?
I'm on the fence about whether or not the eldar changes were too much or if its just that eldar were used to playing on EZ mode. I'm hoping to learn how to play them better myself so perhaps I could write a guide on elder strategy.
I will do a gameplay footage later this week. Will show some 2v2 or 3v3 in a multiplayer match.
Their range is fine, they should just deal with infantry better, because that is what you need them for, and they are very underwhelming at it.
Their range is not fine. With more range they'd have more time to apply dps which would resolve several problems with them by default. More range needed. Simple as that.
I'd support a small range increase maybe ten units probably 5. It would compensate for their lack of crowd control and reflect TT better (not that tabletop should be our guide for balance.
It could very easily stick them into the realm of OP best set up team all of a sudden though so I understand Diogens apprehension...just not his need to garb it in race bias.
However I actually much prefer the idea of them having a faster set up and tear down time.
This would allow them to synergise much better with FoF from battle focus and would help them epitomize hit and run tactics over turtling (which an increased range would do).
Yesterday i tried rangers with Ronnie and prisms, they works quite well.
No buffs to shields. With doctrine to restore them in battle it'd be imba.
No buff to range - they perform exactly as devastators does but can damage also vehicles and buildings.
@Diogen84 - can't get rangers to work in the early game unless the opponent is playing badly....the power wall had relegated them to a t2/T3 after thought for me.
@Diogen84 said:
Yesterday i tried rangers with Ronnie and prisms, they works quite well.
No buffs to shields. With doctrine to restore them in battle it'd be imba.
No buff to range - they perform exactly as devastators does but can damage also vehicles and buildings.
Unless it was 1v1 and you're top 100(not really hard given active population), it doesn't hold much weight for argument.
@MaxwellsDaemon said:
I'd support a small range increase maybe ten units probably 5. It would compensate for their lack of crowd control and reflect TT better (not that tabletop should be our guide for balance.
Heavy bolter devastators 36" range... dark reaper 48" range..
I will have to take a look at costs etc when I get a chance but I suspect that it will look like HB devs probably not balanced right vs Dreapers.
and we had yeah my point exactly Dark reapers out range devatsators by 33%. I suggest a smaller difference than this however.
The problem is Devastators add yet more crowd control to SM's already excellent armoury of CC tools. Dark reapers offer nothing apart from damage and so have zero utility.
The one main benefit of reapers is they are excellent structure smashers.
Honestly if Eldar just had some form of extra crowd control then they'd be absolutely fine. I think it would solve all their issues- they could venture outside of webway with out getting curbstomped- they could offer counter plays to trukks dumping Orks on their head etc etc.
But where would the extra CC come from and how can you stop it from shooting Eldar into being OP again?
all they need is more mobility aka reducing the the waittime until they can shot / move. Or remove it completely. That would fit more to eldar. it also makes them more fun to play.
Yes, I really miss my shuriken platform suppression team from DOW2.
On reapers, I think all they need is a reduced tear down time. It's a safe change to make in terms of not making them OP. It could be tied to webway gate radius and would add to the hit and run design. Or at least the run.
I think reapers should keep their setup time, but lose the tear down time completely. This would allow them to set up in advance for an ambush, and then to run when needed. Aka hit and run like they should be.
@Deathmaw said:
I think reapers should keep their setup time, but lose the tear down time completely. This would allow them to set up in advance for an ambush, and then to run when needed. Aka hit and run like they should be.
This would make a lot of sense. I would also add a bit more movement speed to them, just a little though.
(Download a replay from GameReplays and save it to the following folder:
C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\Dawn of War III\playback (where 'USERNAME' is the name corresponding to the user login on your computer).
Launch Dawn of War 3 and go to Learn-> Replays, and select the replay file you just saved.)
(Download a replay from GameReplays and save it to the following folder:
C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\Dawn of War III\playback (where 'USERNAME' is the name corresponding to the user login on your computer).
Launch Dawn of War 3 and go to Learn-> Replays, and select the replay file you just saved.)
Have you seen this replay yourself? Please do with FoW off and on SM side. You will cry tears of blood... I though I was bad player but this... this is something else. Just watch it...
I'm going to make a whole guide for Eldar based on this replay. It's going to be very long but here's the TLDR: Play against someone who doesn't deploy an elite until minute 17 when their core is low on health.
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Comments
Killhippies
Thank you! Was confused on how their AoE mechanics worked and I was wrong about them.
That's still a respectable dps for reapers, but its a bit lacklaster because of the model bleed coupled with the lack of slow. I think boosting their damage to about 9 or 9.25(36-37 DPS) along with the decreased setup time would make them more of a mobile glass cannon they should be. Eldar lack "tanking" units and really can't prolong that dps without moving, unlike the other races. Would make a bit more sense for them.
RedDevilCG
@Killhippies What model bleed? Dark Rangers have 500 of 800hp as shields. They do full damage until they take 575 damage. Only then do they lose a model.
They are not more squishy than other setup teams.
Killhippies
Not the reapers themselves, I meant the models of the squads they are attacking dying off. They deal less dps vs squads that have less models because of the aoe effect being the source of the bulk of the damage.
Fate
reapers suck vs almost any sm early game unit.
they suck vs devastators and snipers cuz they just have more range. (snipers also more vision too)
they suck vs asm
they suck vs tacts that have any weapon upgrades.
they are okey vs tacs without upgrades tho.
If they would not have to wait until they can shoot or move again, they would acutally be useful units and perfectly fit to the eldar hit and run playstyle.
also keep in mind that there missiles need some time until they hit the target, witch means that the damage is delayed.
only good thing is that they deal true dmg. But as for there role to kill vehicles: lasgun devastators have more range.
on top of all that: sm can get visio for devastators more easy with 200 rec invisible scouts scouts. if u want to have the same vision u need to unlock rangers. (and build them oc) u could use DA for scouting but they have low vison range.
(u can still use worker for scouting like all other races tho)
Katitof
I'd argue that suppression and simply murdering enemies does much more for squads survival then shields vs hp.
jonoliveira12
Yes, and considering shields take damage from all sources equally, they are not all what they are cranked up to be anyway.
RedDevilCG
Devastators and Reapers have the same range, 45.
Absalon
I will do a gameplay footage later this week. Will show some 2v2 or 3v3 in a multiplayer match.
MrBenis
Reapers should have 60 range.
jonoliveira12
Their range is fine, they should just deal with infantry better, because that is what you need them for, and they are very underwhelming at it.
Russgriz
recent big patch just killed the game.. foreals though.. less than 1k players in just 1 month..
MrBenis
Their range is not fine. With more range they'd have more time to apply dps which would resolve several problems with them by default. More range needed. Simple as that.
Diogen84
Eldars want their winstick back.
MaxwellsDaemon
I'd support a small range increase maybe ten units probably 5. It would compensate for their lack of crowd control and reflect TT better (not that tabletop should be our guide for balance.
MaxwellsDaemon
It could very easily stick them into the realm of OP best set up team all of a sudden though so I understand Diogens apprehension...just not his need to garb it in race bias.
However I actually much prefer the idea of them having a faster set up and tear down time.
This would allow them to synergise much better with FoF from battle focus and would help them epitomize hit and run tactics over turtling (which an increased range would do).
Diogen84
Yesterday i tried rangers with Ronnie and prisms, they works quite well.
No buffs to shields. With doctrine to restore them in battle it'd be imba.
No buff to range - they perform exactly as devastators does but can damage also vehicles and buildings.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Diogen84 - can't get rangers to work in the early game unless the opponent is playing badly....the power wall had relegated them to a t2/T3 after thought for me.
Katitof
Unless it was 1v1 and you're top 100(not really hard given active population), it doesn't hold much weight for argument.
Diogen84
I'm 109 in ladder.
MrBenis
Heavy bolter devastators 36" range... dark reaper 48" range..
I will have to take a look at costs etc when I get a chance but I suspect that it will look like HB devs probably not balanced right vs Dreapers.
MaxwellsDaemon
and we had yeah my point exactly Dark reapers out range devatsators by 33%. I suggest a smaller difference than this however.
The problem is Devastators add yet more crowd control to SM's already excellent armoury of CC tools. Dark reapers offer nothing apart from damage and so have zero utility.
The one main benefit of reapers is they are excellent structure smashers.
Honestly if Eldar just had some form of extra crowd control then they'd be absolutely fine. I think it would solve all their issues- they could venture outside of webway with out getting curbstomped- they could offer counter plays to trukks dumping Orks on their head etc etc.
But where would the extra CC come from and how can you stop it from shooting Eldar into being OP again?
Fate
all they need is more mobility aka reducing the the waittime until they can shot / move. Or remove it completely. That would fit more to eldar. it also makes them more fun to play.
MrBenis
Change stasis to a slow field with no immunity for affectes units. That will make more units worth taking
MaxwellsDaemon
Think the crowd control shoiuld be tied to a unit not an elite imo. Otherwise it makes for inflexibility with elite choices
KanKrusha
Yes, I really miss my shuriken platform suppression team from DOW2.
On reapers, I think all they need is a reduced tear down time. It's a safe change to make in terms of not making them OP. It could be tied to webway gate radius and would add to the hit and run design. Or at least the run.
Deathmaw
I think reapers should keep their setup time, but lose the tear down time completely. This would allow them to set up in advance for an ambush, and then to run when needed. Aka hit and run like they should be.
jonoliveira12
This would make a lot of sense. I would also add a bit more movement speed to them, just a little though.
Absalon
So Ladies and Gentlemen here is a video of me doing some 1v1 against a Mighty Space Marine player. Lot´s of ASM spam.
Sorry didn't have time for 2v2 or 3v3 but later i will show some.
https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=321563
(Download a replay from GameReplays and save it to the following folder:
C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\Dawn of War III\playback (where 'USERNAME' is the name corresponding to the user login on your computer).
Launch Dawn of War 3 and go to Learn-> Replays, and select the replay file you just saved.)
Stoner
Have you seen this replay yourself? Please do with FoW off and on SM side. You will cry tears of blood... I though I was bad player but this... this is something else. Just watch it...
Klem
I'm going to make a whole guide for Eldar based on this replay. It's going to be very long but here's the TLDR: Play against someone who doesn't deploy an elite until minute 17 when their core is low on health.