Please Unlock all Elites

Queso

So i know I'll get some flak from people here, but could we please have all the Elites unlocked for free? I really don't like how the game restricts me from being able to use any of the Elites, it's dumb enough i have to grind for hours and hours and hours to unlock each of the Elites to use in MP, but to apply the same restriction for SP vs AI is really annoying.

If i understand correctly, the Elites being locked behind skulls was done to encourage players to spend more time to strive for something, which creates the illusion of choice/depth, which would improve longevity of the game.

And what makes it even worse is I cant even test these units out before i buy them. I have to find the correct level in the campaign where that unit is available, use it on that level against an army/map composition not of my choosing. And just from that i must work out which heroes i want to spend my precious skulls (= grinding my life away). And no watching a video is not good enough. I can understand if i must grind for doctrines, but grinding for Elites?

I really dont like how Relic seems to have become so detached from what made their games so good, i can understand grinding to some extent, but theoretically 20 games just for one elite, which is a gamble since i might not like using it. I dont like to compare DOW3 to previous titles, but it doesnt take a genius to figure out that forcing us to grind for Elites was just a cheap method of trying to get players to feel like their is more depth to the game..

Please unlock the Elites. ALL of them. Even if its in SP so we can test them. But ultimately unlock all of the Elites.

Why must i waste my time to grind for skulls to unlock units i paid for in the first place?

Katitof

Play campaign on hard once.

There, all elites unlocked.

The ONLY mandatory elites are 2 EP ones, which conveniently you start with.

Quitt

To be honest, skulls are really not a problem for me. In fact, I have much more than I need and I only play 1v1 (didn't even touch the campaign) and I didn't play a lot so far (32 or so games, didn't even win half of them). And yet I have all the elites and doctrines I want for Eldar, with enough skulls spare to buy the remaining elites I didn't want to get anyway.

HOWEVER
hiding doctrines behind elite progression is what annoys me. As a person who bought DoW3 for multiplayer only (hence I will never get free xp from the campaign), leveling an elite that costs more than 3 pts is a DRAG. In fact it's so bad I had to fire up the elite grind map just to get taldeer to level 3 so I can get the banshee doctrine I really wanted. I feel bad for doing it but there was no other choice - among all the games I played, I managed to field taldeer maybe 4 times. And it was usually at the very end of the game where she didn't do much so she didn't get any xp. You wanna hide cosmetics behind such a broken progression system? That's fine with me. But don't hide the doctrines.

Queso

@Katitof said:
Play campaign on hard once.

There, all elites unlocked.

The ONLY mandatory elites are 2 EP ones, which conveniently you start with.

Thanks bro, but i think you missed your math there.. You cant unlock ALL elites from the campaign.. all elites from one faction, yes, but not ALL elites.

@Quitt said:
HOWEVER
In fact it's so bad I had to fire up the elite grind map just to get taldeer to level 3 so I can get the >banshee doctrine I really wanted. I feel bad for doing it but there was no other choice - among all >the games I played, I managed to field taldeer maybe 4 times. And it was usually at the very end of >the game where she didn't do much so she didn't get any xp. You wanna hide cosmetics behind >such a broken progression system? That's fine with me. But don't hide the doctrines.

skulls, doctrines, elites.. it all comes down to grinding.. you dont want to grind for doctrines, hidden behind hero levels, i dont want to grind for skulls. we might have different reasons, but either way grinding is ++heresy redacted++, and the reason i dont play F2P games.. i paid for a game, i would at least like to use the items i paid for without having to grind..

i shouldnt have to jump through ANY hoop to unlock a hero,(even if its the campaign to get enough skulls) (which even that doesnt provide) if anything the hoop should be negligible such as play one level to unlock the next elite. hiding stuff behind any wall is just a lazy way of trying to simulate "content"

Quitt

@Queso said:
skulls, doctrines, elites.. it all comes down to grinding.. you dont want to grind for doctrines, hidden behind hero levels, i dont want to grind for skulls. we might have different reasons, but either way grinding is ++heresy redacted++, and the reason i dont play F2P games.. i paid for a game, i would at least like to use the items i paid for without having to grind..

i shouldnt have to jump through ANY hoop to unlock a hero,(even if its the campaign to get enough skulls) (which even that doesnt provide) if anything the hoop should be negligible such as play one level to unlock the next elite. hiding stuff behind any wall is just a lazy way of trying to simulate "content"

I still think that having to purchase stuff with skulls is OK, because you can reliably get them whenever you play. In fact, losing a game nets you only 5 skulls less than winning a game. So as long as you play, whether winning or losing, you get the skulls. But with elite xp it's different. They get XP only for killing stuff. So you have to field it and manage to decimate some units with it. So if I have a taldeer that costs 9 pts and I am not even able to field it in the first place, I cannot even get a fraction of xp. So in your terms, I cannot even grind, regardless if I like grinding or not

Queso

@Quitt said:

@Queso said:
skulls, doctrines, elites.. it all comes down to grinding.. you dont want to grind for doctrines, hidden behind hero levels, i dont want to grind for skulls. we might have different reasons, but either way grinding is ++heresy redacted++, and the reason i dont play F2P games.. i paid for a game, i would at least like to use the items i paid for without having to grind..

i shouldnt have to jump through ANY hoop to unlock a hero,(even if its the campaign to get enough skulls) (which even that doesnt provide) if anything the hoop should be negligible such as play one level to unlock the next elite. hiding stuff behind any wall is just a lazy way of trying to simulate "content"

I still think that having to purchase stuff with skulls is OK, because you can reliably get them whenever you play. In fact, losing a game nets you only 5 skulls less than winning a game. So as long as you play, whether winning or losing, you get the skulls. But with elite xp it's different. They get XP only for killing stuff. So you have to field it and manage to decimate some units with it. So if I have a taldeer that costs 9 pts and I am not even able to field it in the first place, I cannot even get a fraction of xp. So in your terms, I cannot even grind, regardless if I like grinding or not

yeah that is true.. your grinding is even worse.. thinking about how long it will take to unlock the doctrines on all the high EP elites..

Chriskovo

Sounds like they didn't learn their lesson from Command and Conquer 4. Hiding more powerful units behind grind discourages new people from playing the game since all they do is get stomped. Doing this killed the entire Command and Conquer Franchise. Of course them screwing with what Command and Conquer was, a base building game didn't help either. Its sort of what Relic did with this game by making it a moba/RTS. Maybe they are trying to kill their own franchise for some reason? Either that or the management is really that incompetent and cant learn from the past.

Katitof

@Chriskovo said:
Sounds like they didn't learn their lesson from Command and Conquer 4. Hiding more powerful units behind grind discourages new people from playing the game since all they do is get stomped. Doing this killed the entire Command and Conquer Franchise. Of course them screwing with what Command and Conquer was, a base building game didn't help either. Its sort of what Relic did with this game by making it a moba/RTS. Maybe they are trying to kill their own franchise for some reason? Either that or the management is really that incompetent and cant learn from the past.

You're assuming the other heroes are more powerful.
They aren't.
They simply cater to different playstyles.

Queso

@Katitof said:
You're assuming the other heroes are more powerful.
They aren't.
They simply cater to different playstyles.

the idea is still there.. he is correct in that hiding units(anything) behind grinding discourages certain players... and what you said also proves the point, even if the elites only suit different play styles, why must we grind one type of play style to unlock another?

"ahhh you want a variety of ways to play.. well then grind son.."

ive already pointed out that u were wrong about how many skulls were awarded for the campaign.. should we keep a list going? or is our reasoning enough for you?

@Chriskovo said:
Sounds like they didn't learn their lesson from Command and Conquer 4. Hiding more powerful units behind grind discourages new people from playing the game since all they do is get stomped. Doing this killed the entire Command and Conquer Franchise. Of course them screwing with what Command and Conquer was, a base building game didn't help either. Its sort of what Relic did with this game by making it a moba/RTS. Maybe they are trying to kill their own franchise for some reason? Either that or the management is really that incompetent and cant learn from the past.

since you mentioned it, it does seem very similar.. CnC4 was total flop, and they also tried to go the MOBA way.. i know DOW3 isnt as bad or as far off the track as CNC4 was but i think they're still trying the same thing, get more "casual players" likely lose some of the original fan base... sacrifices will be made for the greater good.. ^^

Quitt

@Chriskovo @Queso

Elites being locked behind skulls is really no problem at all. I'll again point towards myself as an example. I did not finish a single campaign mission. Overall, I played around 35 online games (I've been playing since launch). I lost more than half of them (and in the beginning there was no concede option so whenever I conceded I didn't get any skulls). So as you can see, I haven't been playing much (16 hours on steam, 1 month of playing). Yet I easily got enough skulls to unlock 6 elites, 5 doctrines, and I have over 700 skulls in reserve (an Elite costs 200, a doctrine 50).
You will say "oh but some people have even less time and it may take longer for them to get those skulls". So tell me, if they don't have time, why do they need all elites since they won't have time to test 70% of them? Or do you really think that a new and occasional player will have enough insight to start creating strategies that will rely on a locked elite? I believe when you start the game, you're given enough skulls to unlock an Elite and some doctrines. So if you really really like an elite from a get-go, you can unlock it straight away.
In fact, I'm kinda worried there's not much stuff to buy for these skulls, hopefully they'll come up with smth new in the future

Dandalus

just download a special map elite experience from workshop, done.

Dandalus

@Quitt haha i have 4k+ skulls waiting for CSM to unlock all!!!!!!!!!

Queso

@Dandalus said:
just download a special map elite experience from workshop, done.

thank you, but i am against the principle.. grinding is for F2P not paid for games...

Queso

@Quitt said:
@Chriskovo @Queso

Elites being locked behind skulls is really no problem at all. I'll again point towards myself as an example. I did not finish a single campaign mission. Overall, I played around 35 online games (I've been playing since launch). I lost more than half of them (and in the beginning there was no concede option so whenever I conceded I didn't get any skulls). So as you can see, I haven't been playing much (16 hours on steam, 1 month of playing). Yet I easily got enough skulls to unlock 6 elites, 5 doctrines, and I have over 700 skulls in reserve (an Elite costs 200, a doctrine 50).
You will say "oh but some people have even less time and it may take longer for them to get those skulls". So tell me, if they don't have time, why do they need all elites since they won't have time to test 70% of them? Or do you really think that a new and occasional player will have enough insight to start creating strategies that will rely on a locked elite? I believe when you start the game, you're given enough skulls to unlock an Elite and some doctrines. So if you really really like an elite from a get-go, you can unlock it straight away.

firstly just to defunct your taldeer issue.. i just earned 260 000 xp in one match on my imperial knight and it was not that xp map. so as i said before, we each have our own grind issues - skulls doesnt bother you, just like leveling a hero doesnt bother me as much...

so because someone has less time to play, they dont deserve to have the same diversity as someone that has more time? they both paid the SAME FOR THE GAME...

how do we know which elites we will like? for example i might THINK i like warp spiders, only to find out they are a piece of pants.. or i might THINK i like the wraith knight, only to find out most of my matches are resolved before i even get to use it. but alas maybe i have spent my precious skulls on those, so according to your method, thats 1/3 of my bought elites were a waste, since there isnt really a method of testing them out before buying them..

like most games which involve grinding.. the initial purchases are quick and easy, u get a lot for minimal game time.. you are earning 20 skulls a match, that is MINIMUM 10 matches for 1 elite.. once you have exhausted your initial skulls you will then have to grind for the rest.. (we start with a lot which would have enabled you to buy those elites and still have excess)

guys this isnt a huge issue, it is just a silly issue which shouldnt exist.. like achievements not unlocking due to lazy coding.. its more the principle of the issue

TOGgledShot

@Queso said:

@Dandalus said:
just download a special map elite experience from workshop, done.

thank you, but i am against the principle.. grinding is for F2P not paid for games...

You are getting an RTS game with an Elite hero system. What about games like Elder Scrolls Online? I have to grind in that game and it's not F2P.

"All MMO games for free you guys!! You heard the man!!"

Queso

i find the game lacking in actual content, although it is fun to play i find that a lot of the matches play out the same. yes maybe i need new opponents. but i either get wrecked by the same units (ASM/gorguts/weirdboy for so long) or i wreck players doing the same thing (ork boy wave, not even micro'd) on the same 3?? maps

and i find that if i play with different elites (since the game is generally hinged around them) i find it more enjoyable to add to diversity... but if i need to grind to make diversity, then that is completely counter intuitive... i think players nowadays in general have been lulled into thinking grinding is fine... grinding is not fine.. just because companies have fooled you to think it is, thats your own problem...

i would like more content, i cant have more content, so can i please have my elites or can i atleast test which ones are gimps.. i really would not be surprised if a couple 1000 of those players left since they had to grind for over 50 hrs to receive all their elites.. nevermind doctrines..

Katitof

@TOGgledShot said:
DoW1 and 2: - No heroes
Blah blah blah

You might want to re-new your DoW1 and DoW2 knowledge about heroes, which were clearly present in both of these games.

TOGgledShot

@Katitof said:

@TOGgledShot said:
DoW1 and 2: - No heroes
Blah blah blah

You might want to re-new your DoW1 and DoW2 knowledge about heroes, which were clearly present in both of these games.

Yeah, Sry, My idea of a Hero system in DoW 1 and 2 in comparison to DoW3 are different in terms of game mechanics, so I separate them.

Gorb

Cleaned up the thread. Personal attacks are not tolerated.

Also, please, do not respond to rulebreaking posts. Let the moderator team handle them

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Moderator Post

Queso

haha thanks @Gorb.. I knew it was only a matter of time

anyway heres some proof on 6800 players who agree that grinding is not the greatest idea in DOW3... https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=920219731&searchtext=

the mod allows players to rank up their heroes at an alarming rate. and 6800 people use it... meaning obviously a large number of players dont like grinding...

Bitterman

Yes locking commanders behind a carrot and stick was a ++heresy redacted++ move by Relic. Cosmetic options only should have been locked.

Darkuu

@Queso said:

@Dandalus said:
just download a special map elite experience from workshop, done.

thank you, but i am against the principle.. grinding is for F2P not paid for games...

I wont agree. Without some kind of progression system players will loose interest in game sooner. Thats why in battlefield type games there are unlockable weapons, and even in starcrart 2 you have lecels tgat unlock new stuff. And do you expect to play every single game with diferent race and every time with different doctrines? Im playing moslty space marines but recently started eldar. I have doctrines that i like and elites that i use and doesnt fee the need for unlocking EVERYTHING. And if i will want to pkay orcs i have 600 skull to get unlocks for them. The good point is thise things are cheap so after a few games you can unlock something new. In coh for example you need few THOUSAND for unlock and you get very little of those unlock points

Queso

@Darkuu said:

@Queso said:

@Dandalus said:
just download a special map elite experience from workshop, done.

thank you, but i am against the principle.. grinding is for F2P not paid for games...

I wont agree. Without some kind of progression system players will loose interest in game sooner. Thats why in battlefield type games there are unlockable weapons, and even in starcrart 2 you have lecels tgat unlock new stuff. And do you expect to play every single game with diferent race and every time with different doctrines? Im playing moslty space marines but recently started eldar. I have doctrines that i like and elites that i use and doesnt fee the need for unlocking EVERYTHING. And if i will want to pkay orcs i have 600 skull to get unlocks for them. The good point is thise things are cheap so after a few games you can unlock something new. In coh for example you need few THOUSAND for unlock and you get very little of those unlock points

you mentioned an FPS... and SC2 doesnt unlock any units only skins/portraits... in COH you are getting generals for free (if you want to grind for them), otherwise you can buy those generals outright, they also dont form the core of your combat, you can very easily win in COH without even using a general. and finally doctrines in COH are completely irrelevant, 2% faster reload on one type of unit and not stackable.. seriously you think that effects game play?

the review rated as "most helpful" on steam for DOW3: the 2nd point mentioned is the stupidity of having to grind for army variety (ie Elites and doctrines)
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970298866/recommended/285190/

so yall can say im being a spoiled child about it, but im surely not alone in thinking grinding for units in an RTS is not the wisest decision...