Early SM game feels very weak

ApNw

I've been playing a few games since the patch and the balance is still pretty bad.

Early on, it's been tested a few times with friends, 3 squads of TM lose to 3 basic squads of (mind you cheaper) orks or eldars.
Now I know what you're going to say, you need to upgrade them with flamethrowers. While it's true that if the enemy A moves it's pretty good but with decent player they will simply move around or better throw an unavoidable nade that can stop the channeling. You then find yourself having spent tons of energy on a lowly squad and will be left behind on tech/macro and you're fighting an uphill battle.
So I thought, let's give a second chance to those ASM. Two squads of them lost against 3 DA squads by quite a bit(which is about what both players have when contesting those crucial early points) while using leaps (including the VD one that hurts as much as 1/5th of their shield now).

Against any skilled player, contesting those early points seems nearly impossible, you really have to bet on your opponent not microing their units which just doesn't happen and even then they are much faster than both ASM and TM squads and can exit to safety without being punished.

After that first engagement, they will have towers everywhere, suppressing units placed around, it will be an even worse fight to take. And due to how the maps are designed and how bad the ASM are now it's relatively hard to backdoor in a cost efficient way.

The only "reliable" build seem to be to tech really fast to mass predators destructor, which baring any broken elites (autarch for exemple) tend to beat everything the other races have which again feels completely off in terms of balance.

And that's just a small part of the game, some elites are not even worth playing like Diomedes (outshined by GA), assault terminators etc....

Now that's not to say SM are particularly bad in general, they have a few good elites and some very good units (like the predators), just that this game resolves around fighting for early points and that SM seem especially terrible at just that.

Fuhax0r0

Run in with 2 stealthed scousquads throwing blindnades with flamer foĺlowing shortly after

2 flamers will rurn them to a roastbeef while they cant do ++heresy redacted++

Problem solved

Edit: it even ignores heavycover like shield...

Gregoire

You can have 3x tacs out much quicker than they can have 3x squads out - indeed that first engagement where you both walk one squad to the mid and clash, you have two due to deep strike. It's about decisiveness - seize that brief advantage to cover construction of a LP, then use that gun as your tiebreaker. From there you can harass an exposed point - they physically cannot have LPs on all their points, so you use that brief window to gain momentum.

Then you get a forward barracks, and supplement your gunline with scouts (bonus: nades) and perhaps ASM for versatility.

Doing that I'm absolutely murdering early game, though I have mainly come up against SM mirrors.

Guziol

Early game SM feels broken atm. Drop pod is so powerfull it mitigates any heavy weapon teams early game. standard shield is beastly and ironmaw is borderline broken in my opinion. Mostly because they come in a droppod as well. Flamers ++heresy redacted++ on anything thats not SM and asm deal with anything your tacs have problems with.

PaperBaG

If you use your drop pod and standard correctly you shouldnt be having a problem v anything early game

DonDimon

If you lose your 2 ASMs to 3 DAs - well mate, the problem is in your skill, not in the game.

0riginal_z0M

The grass is always greener, start with ork and play against an SM.. We will wait for tomorrow, your new thread will be * SM is OP early game*

kickinleg

SM has, by far, the best early, mid and lategame atm. ^^

TM's were overbuffed heavily, to a degree where I can't wrap my head around why.

desmortes

TM's were not overbuffed there damage and HP is compareable to the other races the only thing that is making them viable (and in most cases OP compared to other line infantry) is the tireless doctorine which allows them to scale extremely well into the late game due to there mobility. I understand there is alot of fustration atm pretaining to the TM's but between the flammer doctorine and tireless you are picking 2 doctorines that dont extremely help your late game as SM. id agree tireless needs a rework but i dont think changing what it does is a productive way of doing balances. instead make it to were tireless only applies while inside of Friendly area's i.e. similar to the way fof works for eldar so that it limits the early game rush and requires mid to late game buildings in far forward positions to remain a competitive edge while still allowing for you to benifit from it early game to a degree that isnt broken

MaxwellsDaemon

@desmortes

Dunno man- all seems pretty good late game.

Being able to immobilise vehicles on a flammable t1 infantry (with slow death doctrine) ....would be very happy to be able to equip my Dire avengers with one of those.

MaxwellsDaemon

I like big butts and I cannot lie

MaxwellsDaemon

....my phone was stolen by my girlfriend.

Praxis

Haha okay so SM have drop pods that can delpoy units anywhere on the map, grant units a shield and have knock down and have a banner they can call down that gives a shield and knockdown.

Eldar can teleport their buidlings...

Yeah wow SM sure have it rough early game

AngelofDeth

This is a joke right? The problem is yourself, not the race. Play the eldar, and you see the huge difference.

BRabbit

@ApNw said:
I've been playing a few games since the patch and the balance is still pretty bad.

Early on, it's been tested a few times with friends, 3 squads of TM lose to 3 basic squads of (mind you cheaper) orks or eldars.
Now I know what you're going to say, you need to upgrade them with flamethrowers. While it's true that if the enemy A moves it's pretty good but with decent player they will simply move around or better throw an unavoidable nade that can stop the channeling. You then find yourself having spent tons of energy on a lowly squad and will be left behind on tech/macro and you're fighting an uphill battle.
So I thought, let's give a second chance to those ASM. Two squads of them lost against 3 DA squads by quite a bit(which is about what both players have when contesting those crucial early points) while using leaps (including the VD one that hurts as much as 1/5th of their shield now).

Against any skilled player, contesting those early points seems nearly impossible, you really have to bet on your opponent not microing their units which just doesn't happen and even then they are much faster than both ASM and TM squads and can exit to safety without being punished.

After that first engagement, they will have towers everywhere, suppressing units placed around, it will be an even worse fight to take. And due to how the maps are designed and how bad the ASM are now it's relatively hard to backdoor in a cost efficient way.

The only "reliable" build seem to be to tech really fast to mass predators destructor, which baring any broken elites (autarch for exemple) tend to beat everything the other races have which again feels completely off in terms of balance.

And that's just a small part of the game, some elites are not even worth playing like Diomedes (outshined by GA), assault terminators etc....

Now that's not to say SM are particularly bad in general, they have a few good elites and some very good units (like the predators), just that this game resolves around fighting for early points and that SM seem especially terrible at just that.

Dude you are either extremly bad or trolling or out right lying trying to keep your SM race as op as it is now.

Guziol

You do realize this post was made way before tacs got buffed?

MaxwellsDaemon

@Guziol
Pretty sure it wasn't- the opening statement is 'I've played a few games since the patch.'

So this was post patch pre tireless nerfed tacs.

BUTI

@ApNw said:
I've been playing a few games since the patch and the balance is still pretty bad.

Early on, it's been tested a few times with friends, 3 squads of TM lose to 3 basic squads of (mind you cheaper) orks or eldars.
Now I know what you're going to say, you need to upgrade them with flamethrowers. While it's true that if the enemy A moves it's pretty good but with decent player they will simply move around or better throw an unavoidable nade that can stop the channeling. You then find yourself having spent tons of energy on a lowly squad and will be left behind on tech/macro and you're fighting an uphill battle.
So I thought, let's give a second chance to those ASM. Two squads of them lost against 3 DA squads by quite a bit(which is about what both players have when contesting those crucial early points) while using leaps (including the VD one that hurts as much as 1/5th of their shield now).

Against any skilled player, contesting those early points seems nearly impossible, you really have to bet on your opponent not microing their units which just doesn't happen and even then they are much faster than both ASM and TM squads and can exit to safety without being punished.

After that first engagement, they will have towers everywhere, suppressing units placed around, it will be an even worse fight to take. And due to how the maps are designed and how bad the ASM are now it's relatively hard to backdoor in a cost efficient way.

The only "reliable" build seem to be to tech really fast to mass predators destructor, which baring any broken elites (autarch for exemple) tend to beat everything the other races have which again feels completely off in terms of balance.

And that's just a small part of the game, some elites are not even worth playing like Diomedes (outshined by GA), assault terminators etc....

Now that's not to say SM are particularly bad in general, they have a few good elites and some very good units (like the predators), just that this game resolves around fighting for early points and that SM seem especially terrible at just that.

Yea, that's right, Astartes in Dawn of War III has been cannon foddered so hard. There is way too much of them and they lacks of Astartes strength.
Basically more superlosers than superhumans.

@BRabbit said:
Dude you are either extremly bad or trolling or out right lying trying to keep your SM race as op as it is now.

He didn't say about whole race being weak, he said about Astartes in terms of single unit being weak, I don't see point to say stuff like that about him. Please don't call other users trolls and liars just because you can't see their point.

Dandalus

@BUTI said:

@ApNw said:
I've been playing a few games since the patch and the balance is still pretty bad.

Early on, it's been tested a few times with friends, 3 squads of TM lose to 3 basic squads of (mind you cheaper) orks or eldars.
Now I know what you're going to say, you need to upgrade them with flamethrowers. While it's true that if the enemy A moves it's pretty good but with decent player they will simply move around or better throw an unavoidable nade that can stop the channeling. You then find yourself having spent tons of energy on a lowly squad and will be left behind on tech/macro and you're fighting an uphill battle.
So I thought, let's give a second chance to those ASM. Two squads of them lost against 3 DA squads by quite a bit(which is about what both players have when contesting those crucial early points) while using leaps (including the VD one that hurts as much as 1/5th of their shield now).

Against any skilled player, contesting those early points seems nearly impossible, you really have to bet on your opponent not microing their units which just doesn't happen and even then they are much faster than both ASM and TM squads and can exit to safety without being punished.

After that first engagement, they will have towers everywhere, suppressing units placed around, it will be an even worse fight to take. And due to how the maps are designed and how bad the ASM are now it's relatively hard to backdoor in a cost efficient way.

The only "reliable" build seem to be to tech really fast to mass predators destructor, which baring any broken elites (autarch for exemple) tend to beat everything the other races have which again feels completely off in terms of balance.

And that's just a small part of the game, some elites are not even worth playing like Diomedes (outshined by GA), assault terminators etc....

Now that's not to say SM are particularly bad in general, they have a few good elites and some very good units (like the predators), just that this game resolves around fighting for early points and that SM seem especially terrible at just that.

Yea, that's right, Astartes in Dawn of War III has been cannon foddered so hard. There is way too much of them and they lacks of Astartes strength.
Basically more superlosers than superhumans.

@BRabbit said:
Dude you are either extremly bad or trolling or out right lying trying to keep your SM race as op as it is now.

He didn't say about whole race being weak, he said about Astartes in terms of single unit being weak, I don't see point to say stuff like that about him. Please don't call other users trolls and liars just because you can't see their point.

BUTI has no life.

DrBeatsPhD

I've found, personally, that tac squads are still not very cost effective, and I would rather not spend power on flamers. I've had the most success with scout spam early game, tbh, and an early transition to vehicles. I'm trying to integrate ASMs and the occasional sniper squad now.

Lude

I'm not an SM player, but ofc I play against them regularly. For SM to be 'strong' early game you HAVE to have flamers, otherwise you will be at parity with the other races, except gimping yourself by not using your strongest weapon. If you don't use flamers, you do it because you are waiting for a stronger lategame, and want to rely on your elites until that stage, that is your strategic choice to make. A lot of players I know do some good stuff with assault marines and tacs, but this requires using doctrines to make your units stronger and microing as hard as possible, and taking advantage of drop pods and banner.

Realised this is now a shitposting thread, my contribution anyway.