Vypers for eldar need buff?

Wardemon

First lets look at landspeeders.
175 req 175 power
74 dps
700hp 800 with upgrade
50 power Option to upgrade heavy melta to allow them to do armor piercing damage as well
as giving them 100 more hp
Now compare their dps to heavy bolters

Heavy bolters
req 450
56 dps

Now eldar equivalents

Vypers
125 req 125 power
20 dps true damage
375 hp 125 shield = 500 total hp

Now compare their dps to eldar equiv of heavy bolters the dark reapers who also do true damage.

Dark Reapers
440 req
32 dps true damage

Ork equivalents
DeffKopta
100 req 100 pow
33 dps
550 hp

Loota
440 req
53 dps

So what I notice is that SM can buy the landspeeders and have a unit that does more damage than their heavy weapons team equivalent.
Yet when Eldar and Ork buy their skimmer they get units that do less damage than their heavy weapon team equivalent.
The only thing that we can point to as justification for this seems to be that Eldar Vyper and Ork Deffkoppta have activated abilities as well.

To me it seems right now either landspeeder is over performing, eldar and ork equiv are underperforming or both.

Now obviously SM Ork and eldar equivalent options don't have to be as strong and have the same stats as SM but if not I would think the Ork and Eldar option should at least offer some utility in their activated abilities to compensate.

Please consider either buffing eldar and Ork version damage or adding more utility to their abilities.

jonoliveira12

Vyper needs an Energy cost reduction, it is fine otherwise.
Sky Portal units are all overpriced, but at least the Falcon can act as a reinforcement pad, and the Fire Prysm can attack ground. The Vyper, however, does not offer enough for it's price, the Requisition is readily available, but the Energy is best spent on Wraithguards. If it costed something like 200 Requisition + 100 Energy, it would see more usage, as an artillery hunter, and harassment unit

CANNED_F3TUS

I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

jonoliveira12

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

Katitof

Eldar skimmers should get proper 50% health increase for all 3 ranks of upgrade instead of current ~18%.
That's all I want.

Wardemon

Doing some math on the damage of these units with landspeeders you spend about 2.36 req and 2.36 power for every 1 dps you get from the unit.

Vypers you spend about 6.25 req and 6.25 power for every 1 dps you get from the unit.

Deffkopters you spend about 3 req and 3 power for every 1 dps you get from the unit.

It seems to me that currently eldar pay 2 times as much for true damage which causes this unit to be half as effective against each unit type it fights.
I think that while true damage needs to have a higher cost having to pay twice as much for it makes it pointless.

Lets pretend a player has to fight a unit with normal armor and a unit with heavy armor.
Currently it would be more effective to build 1 unit to fight the unit with normal armor and 1 unit to fight the unit with heavy armor because were he to try to build two true damage units for those fights and send one to fight the normal armor and one to fight the heavy armor each true damage unit would be half as cost effective on each target making the vypers true damage a drawback instead of a strength.

Vypers with true damage should not be just as effective against each unit type per resource spent as a regular unit but it also can't be half as effective either or true damage becomes a draw back. imo it should be somewhere in the middle. Instead of half as effective it should potentially be a little less than 2/3rds as effective.

MaxwellsDaemon

Personally I'd like to see for all vehicles more weapon customisation options.

I think that would be a far more interesting way to go and far deeper for army composition and strats.

Wardemon

I think Vypers could be reasonably raised to 28 dps and be closer to viable without being overpowering in any way.
Alternatively another option would be to add more utility to vypers ability by adding an attack speed slow as well as movement slow to its ability. (now that AOE ability it puts out would also slow anything within its affects attack speed by 35 to 50%)
This would be a pick one buff situation not apply both buffs at once.

Guziol

I see no place for vypers in the eldar army at this moment. Not with the cost, not with that performance.

jonoliveira12

@Guziol said:
I see no place for vypers in the eldar army at this moment. Not with the cost, not with that performance.

Let us not be coy about it, Eldar is Dark Reaper + Wraithguard spam from T2 onwards, because that is the only things that work.

RedDevilCG

@Katitof said:
Eldar skimmers should get proper 50% health increase for all 3 ranks of upgrade instead of current ~18%.
That's all I want.

Can you breakdown what's currently going on? What's causing the difference?

Guziol

@RedDevilCG said:
Can you breakdown what's currently going on? What's causing the difference?

Eldar shield upgrades in soul shrine only increase their shields but they have higher % to compensate for it. In the end the upgrades give you roughly as much as other factions upgrades. Problems start with eldar vechicles which have considerably more health than shields as opposed to ~40%hp/60% shields their infrantry have. So they benefit very little from the upgrades which makes them very easy to kill lategame compared to ork and sm vechicles with their respective upgrades.

RedDevilCG

Thanks, so what's the math that leads to 18%?

Guziol

https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/11940/eldar-vehicles-and-durability-upgrades Just have a look at that.
On top of that eldar vechicles are skimmers = more damage taken from dedicated AV infrantry
And they also have lower base effective health ( health + shields ) to compensate for the fact that they are bit more mobile and shields are generally better than health.

Stoner

Why did they purposely gimped Eldar skimmer shields is beyond me...

Katitof

@Stoner said:
Why did they purposely gimped Eldar skimmer shields is beyond me...

They probably wanted eldar to have similar downtime with repairs.
I want to believe its oversight that eldar skimmers don't scale instead of deliberate decision to have them scale in inferior way.

Any word on that @Kat_RE ?

Stoner

@Katitof said:

@Stoner said:
Why did they purposely gimped Eldar skimmer shields is beyond me...

They probably wanted eldar to have similar downtime with repairs.
I want to believe its oversight that eldar skimmers don't scale instead of deliberate decision to have them scale in inferior way.

Any word on that @Kat_RE ?

Would be great if someone re-posts Svanhs' message in Bugs section. I'm no Eldar, so if someone with better knowledge would do it...

Atlas

Yeah, Vypers are bad as they are right now. Shifting some hp from hull to shields and going something like 150/100 or 175/100 would do a LOT to help them.

Svanh

Do note that the listed Vyper DPS only applies to the missile launcher, they also have ~10 Normal DPS from their front-facing gun so they aren't quite as bad as they appear.

I think the main issues with Vypers are how easy they are to one-shot and how close they have to get to use their slow bomb.

MrBenis

@Stoner said:
Why did they purposely gimped Eldar skimmer shields is beyond me...

They repair really fast. Really really fast with wwp. So long as you can micro like a god you might get some mileage. This is where my complaints about pathing come from because eldar vehicles need to have an avenue to escape but their circus acts of spinning round and round hurts their dps and makes them frustrating to control

Absalon

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

Fate

vypers die so fast i a light buff in shild would be appropriate as well as a decrease in energy cost imo.

Wardemon

@Absalon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as it is being said with no followup logic.

Theoretically we can always make that argument. People could have said tacs never needed a buff in dps just cost decrease as if you have a unit that is not effective enough for the cost if you bring its price down enough then it could eventually be fine.

I personally would rather see them be more useful than see them be easier to spam because being able to spam a unit like that could give one race an extreme amount of map presence that is super hard to deal with when you have to send anti heavy armor units to every point on the map they appear at and then they instantly run to another vulnerable point when you do(creating another situation like asm before their nerf) but what is the counter logic suggesting a price reduction is more suitable than stat or ability alteration?

P.S we have to remember that price alterations would likely have to be done in conjuction with population cost alteration.

Also there seems to be some running theme or reason that all of these equivalent units have even power and req cost (ie 175 req 175 power landspeeder, 100 req 100 power deffkopter, 125 req 125 power vypers)

jonoliveira12

@Wardemon said:

@Absalon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as it is being said with no followup logic.

Theoretically we can always make that argument. People could have said tacs never needed a buff in dps just cost decrease as if you have a unit that is not effective enough for the cost if you bring its price down enough then it could eventually be fine.

I personally would rather see them be more useful than see them be easier to spam because being able to spam a unit like that could give one race an extreme amount of map presence that is super hard to deal with when you have to send anti heavy armor units to every point on the map they appear at and then they instantly run to another vulnerable point when you do(creating another situation like asm before their nerf) but what is the counter logic suggesting a price reduction is more suitable than stat or ability alteration?

P.S we have to remember that price alterations would likely have to be done in conjuction with population cost alteration.

Also there seems to be some running theme or reason that all of these equivalent units have even power and req cost (ie 175 req 175 power landspeeder, 100 req 100 power deffkopter, 125 req 125 power vypers)

Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast. You get better results from 1 Falcon, rather than 2 Vypers, because 2 Vypers cost as much as 1 Falcon, Energy wise.

I used Vypers a little, and liked them a lot, but they are too expensive.
For a faction that is supposed to be "hit-and-run", their units are way to expensive and slow outside Webway radius. The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage, but it's price is just not justifiable.
Tacts are supposed to be strong and expensive, Vypers are supposed to attack in groups of 2 or 3, so I do not see why they shouldn't be more affordable, specially in a faction that already spends tons of Energy.

Wardemon

@jonoliveira12 said:

@Wardemon said:

@Absalon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as it is being said with no followup logic.

Theoretically we can always make that argument. People could have said tacs never needed a buff in dps just cost decrease as if you have a unit that is not effective enough for the cost if you bring its price down enough then it could eventually be fine.

I personally would rather see them be more useful than see them be easier to spam because being able to spam a unit like that could give one race an extreme amount of map presence that is super hard to deal with when you have to send anti heavy armor units to every point on the map they appear at and then they instantly run to another vulnerable point when you do(creating another situation like asm before their nerf) but what is the counter logic suggesting a price reduction is more suitable than stat or ability alteration?

P.S we have to remember that price alterations would likely have to be done in conjuction with population cost alteration.

Also there seems to be some running theme or reason that all of these equivalent units have even power and req cost (ie 175 req 175 power landspeeder, 100 req 100 power deffkopter, 125 req 125 power vypers)

Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast. You get better results from 1 Falcon, rather than 2 Vypers, because 2 Vypers cost as much as 1 Falcon, Energy wise.

I used Vypers a little, and liked them a lot, but they are too expensive.
For a faction that is supposed to be "hit-and-run", their units are way to expensive and slow outside Webway radius. The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage, but it's price is just not justifiable.
Tacts are supposed to be strong and expensive, Vypers are supposed to attack in groups of 2 or 3, so I do not see why they shouldn't be more affordable, specially in a faction that already spends tons of Energy.

"Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast."
Right that is unless you start bringing their cost down and eliminating the power cost.

"The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage"
As far as them doing good damage here is a test to try.
have 3 vypers fully upgraded try to take out a single fully upgraded SM dreadn
That is 375 worth of power of vypers against what 350 power of SM?
Doing that made me feel they did not have good damage.

jonoliveira12

@Wardemon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@Wardemon said:

@Absalon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as it is being said with no followup logic.

Theoretically we can always make that argument. People could have said tacs never needed a buff in dps just cost decrease as if you have a unit that is not effective enough for the cost if you bring its price down enough then it could eventually be fine.

I personally would rather see them be more useful than see them be easier to spam because being able to spam a unit like that could give one race an extreme amount of map presence that is super hard to deal with when you have to send anti heavy armor units to every point on the map they appear at and then they instantly run to another vulnerable point when you do(creating another situation like asm before their nerf) but what is the counter logic suggesting a price reduction is more suitable than stat or ability alteration?

P.S we have to remember that price alterations would likely have to be done in conjuction with population cost alteration.

Also there seems to be some running theme or reason that all of these equivalent units have even power and req cost (ie 175 req 175 power landspeeder, 100 req 100 power deffkopter, 125 req 125 power vypers)

Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast. You get better results from 1 Falcon, rather than 2 Vypers, because 2 Vypers cost as much as 1 Falcon, Energy wise.

I used Vypers a little, and liked them a lot, but they are too expensive.
For a faction that is supposed to be "hit-and-run", their units are way to expensive and slow outside Webway radius. The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage, but it's price is just not justifiable.
Tacts are supposed to be strong and expensive, Vypers are supposed to attack in groups of 2 or 3, so I do not see why they shouldn't be more affordable, specially in a faction that already spends tons of Energy.

"Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast."
Right that is unless you start bringing their cost down and eliminating the power cost.

"The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage"
As far as them doing good damage here is a test to try.
have 3 vypers fully upgraded try to take out a single fully upgraded SM dreadn
That is 375 worth of power of vypers against what 350 power of SM?
Doing that made me feel they did not have good damage.

That is the same thing as having Bolter Devs trying to take down Nobz, they are just not made for that.
And yes, the reason why Eldar almost never see vehicle play, is that their vehicles are incredibly expensive. It is obvious they were designed as an infantry faction, and pay for it with expensive vehicles, but the lightest and weakest vehicle should not really be so pricey.

I would rather they adjust the prices than improve unit power, as that will just lead to power creeping, and other factions wanting their low level vehicles also given better stats.

Wardemon

@jonoliveira12 said:

@Wardemon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@Wardemon said:

@Absalon said:

@jonoliveira12 said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
I hope the dont give the exact same stats for the skimmers. SM landspeeder is good damage dealer and unit harrasser where i think relic wants to make def koppa a really good anti infantry and building killer while the viper is decent in dealing damage but its going to be used as a disruption unit or scout.

Vypers do not need new stats, they play well as it is. They just need to be more competitively priced.

only this ! Vypers dont need a buff in stat, but a price reduction.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as it is being said with no followup logic.

Theoretically we can always make that argument. People could have said tacs never needed a buff in dps just cost decrease as if you have a unit that is not effective enough for the cost if you bring its price down enough then it could eventually be fine.

I personally would rather see them be more useful than see them be easier to spam because being able to spam a unit like that could give one race an extreme amount of map presence that is super hard to deal with when you have to send anti heavy armor units to every point on the map they appear at and then they instantly run to another vulnerable point when you do(creating another situation like asm before their nerf) but what is the counter logic suggesting a price reduction is more suitable than stat or ability alteration?

P.S we have to remember that price alterations would likely have to be done in conjuction with population cost alteration.

Also there seems to be some running theme or reason that all of these equivalent units have even power and req cost (ie 175 req 175 power landspeeder, 100 req 100 power deffkopter, 125 req 125 power vypers)

Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast. You get better results from 1 Falcon, rather than 2 Vypers, because 2 Vypers cost as much as 1 Falcon, Energy wise.

I used Vypers a little, and liked them a lot, but they are too expensive.
For a faction that is supposed to be "hit-and-run", their units are way to expensive and slow outside Webway radius. The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage, but it's price is just not justifiable.
Tacts are supposed to be strong and expensive, Vypers are supposed to attack in groups of 2 or 3, so I do not see why they shouldn't be more affordable, specially in a faction that already spends tons of Energy.

"Thing is, no Eldar vehicle is at all spammable, they all cost a ton of Energy, and die very fast."
Right that is unless you start bringing their cost down and eliminating the power cost.

"The Vyper is fast, and deals good damage"
As far as them doing good damage here is a test to try.
have 3 vypers fully upgraded try to take out a single fully upgraded SM dreadn
That is 375 worth of power of vypers against what 350 power of SM?
Doing that made me feel they did not have good damage.

That is the same thing as having Bolter Devs trying to take down Nobz, they are just not made for that.
And yes, the reason why Eldar almost never see vehicle play, is that their vehicles are incredibly expensive. It is obvious they were designed as an infantry faction, and pay for it with expensive vehicles, but the lightest and weakest vehicle should not really be so pricey.

I would rather they adjust the prices than improve unit power, as that will just lead to power creeping, and other factions wanting their low level vehicles also given better stats.

"That is the same thing as having Bolter Devs trying to take down Nobz, they are just not made for that."
If you look at vypers description it in game it says anti vehicles. Also it is not the same as having bolter devs trying to take down nobz because bolter devs do %40 damage against nobz and Vypers do %100 damage to heavy armor units.
Still putting all that aside. Someone earlier said they do good damage. I am very curious who they do good damage to?

Guziol

To your own economy.

Stoner

They do decent damage to everything, but die waaaay too fast.

Wardemon

@Stoner said:
They do decent damage to everything, but die waaaay too fast.

If they do decent damage then landspeeders must do absolutely amazing damage at almost 4x the damage with an upgrade that allows them to do damage to heavy armor too.

Svanh

@Wardemon said:

@Stoner said:
They do decent damage to everything, but die waaaay too fast.

If they do decent damage then landspeeders must do absolutely amazing damage at almost 4x the damage with an upgrade that allows them to do damage to heavy armor too.

A Vyper costs 2/3 as much as a stock Landspeeder and does ~43% (~28% as true damage) of their DPS in return for true damage, higher speed, and the slow bomb. Do also note that the Multimelta upgrade reduces their DPS against Normal armour (and therefore against listening posts) and has less DPS than the Assault Cannon it replaces anyway.

Vypers could do with a buff but damage isn't their issue. Changes to Eldar durability upgrades, making Vypers harder to one-shot, and a less risky slow bomb would go further towards making them useful.