@Quitt said:
Annihilation... to be honest I'm not sure about it. I mean, I would be fine with removing just the power core and making the stronghold THE building to destroy - turrets and shield gens can stay or can go, I don't mind either option. But what I'm afraid of is having to destroy EVERY SINGLE building of the enemy. I can already see teleporting bonesingers or invisible gretchin trolololing around the map building the newly introduced turrets or whatever in the invisible covers or something... Also - why only in custom mode?
Firstly gotta agree. If this mode would prove good, it belongs in Quick Match as well.
But secondly gotta disagree. I never understood what problem players have with looking for building, I mean if you trashed their base and they have 1 teleporting building, it's helluva lot faster to find it and kill off rather than Power Core, where you have to smash Turret and in 90% of cases in even games it happens in late t3. Most recent match vs. Ork took me whooping 57 minutes in 1v1, you think it's ok? Do you honestly think looking for base could take more time?
great plan ahead, Relic. and good job, Kat! really appreciate the update you have brought us!
however, i hope i get this right: these new turrets, will they be like buildable base turrets (like Waagh tower) but for all factions? (my most preferred option)
or will you place them somehow else?
or will you not place them at all and they are already pre-placed before match start? (least preferred)
@LeemanRuss said:
any glimpse of hope seeing Necrons or chaos or IG soon KAT_RE
We’re not sure. We’re still processing launch feedback and figuring out how that changes where we go from here. Producing a full army with Elites and abilities would have to be prioritized over months of other work. Obviously we’d love to make it happen but we need to figure out where our time is best spent based on the feedback so far.
again, highly appreciate your input but this saddens me a bit. i think at least a fourth faction is a MUST for a DoW game! i dont really care which one but it would highly increase variety and replay value!
The fourth faction will be hopefully released with a new single player campaign introducing it. So an expansion. I am really happy with the upcoming annihilation mode! Keep it up relic!
I could agree over turrets being available without being a doctrinal choice, but just limited with quantity. How will you prevent a turret spam, especially in later escalation phases when you start getting a ton of resources...? Unless they are both doctrinal and limited in numbers, like 5 (just as Waaaagh towers)?
@LeemanRuss said:
any glimpse of hope seeing Necrons or chaos or IG soon KAT_RE
We’re not sure. We’re still processing launch feedback and figuring out how that changes where we go from here. Producing a full army with Elites and abilities would have to be prioritized over months of other work. Obviously we’d love to make it happen but we need to figure out where our time is best spent based on the feedback so far.
We need Chaos and Necros. And we also need the full modding tools.
@Renner said:
I could agree over turrets being available without being a doctrinal choice, but just limited with quantity. How will you prevent a turret spam, especially in later escalation phases when you start getting a ton of resources...? Unless they are both doctrinal and limited in numbers, like 5 (just as Waaaagh towers)?
They will not be limited, but they will take population instead.
@Valeran said: @Kat_RE New map (Mortis Vale) will be classic non-simmetric and biug without lines? Or it will be anorther MOBA 3-lines tyle map?
Classic maps have always had lanes. For instance, one of the clearest examples of this in dow1 wad one of the most popular maps, blood river, which has 3 obvious lanes. In Dow2 the same can be said of most maps. Argus desert gate anyone? Judgement of carrion? Argent shelf?
While there are exceptions, lanes and chokepoints have always been a mainstay of rts map design
@Ace40k said:
great plan ahead, Relic. and good job, Kat! really appreciate the update you have brought us!
however, i hope i get this right: these new turrets, will they be like buildable base turrets (like Waagh tower) but for all factions? (my most preferred option)
or will you place them somehow else?
or will you not place them at all and they are already pre-placed before match start? (least preferred)
The turrets are essentially buildable base turrets, but in order to build them you need to equip the doctrine. Each faction will have this option, and the doctrines will be given for free in the update.
To build them in-game, you need to select a builder unit and spend resources to start the build. You can place them anywhere you could make a building before, and there's no hard cap on how many you can have, but they will count towards your population. So if you decide to go full turtle-mode, you're trading resources and population that could have otherwise been spent on building a bigger army.
Annihilation comes in two flavors: Annihilation Classic and Annihilation with Defenses. The second mode, Annihilation with Defenses, starts you off with some turrets already built in pre-determined locations, regardless of whether or not you brought the doctrine to build more.
@Ace40k said:
great plan ahead, Relic. and good job, Kat! really appreciate the update you have brought us!
however, i hope i get this right: these new turrets, will they be like buildable base turrets (like Waagh tower) but for all factions? (my most preferred option)
or will you place them somehow else?
or will you not place them at all and they are already pre-placed before match start? (least preferred)
The turrets are essentially buildable base turrets, but in order to build them you need to equip the doctrine. Each faction will have this option, and the doctrines will be given for free in the update.
To build them in-game, you need to select a builder unit and spend resources to start the build. You can place them anywhere you could make a building before, and there's no hard cap on how many you can have, but they will count towards your population. So if you decide to go full turtle-mode, you're trading resources and population that could have otherwise been spent on building a bigger army.
Annihilation comes in two flavors: Annihilation Classic and Annihilation with Defenses. The second mode, Annihilation with Defenses, starts you off with some turrets already built in pre-determined locations, regardless of whether or not you brought the doctrine to build more.
yay, amazing! thanks a lot and keep up the incredible work!!!!
@Ace40k said:
great plan ahead, Relic. and good job, Kat! really appreciate the update you have brought us!
however, i hope i get this right: these new turrets, will they be like buildable base turrets (like Waagh tower) but for all factions? (my most preferred option)
or will you place them somehow else?
or will you not place them at all and they are already pre-placed before match start? (least preferred)
The turrets are essentially buildable base turrets, but in order to build them you need to equip the doctrine. Each faction will have this option, and the doctrines will be given for free in the update.
To build them in-game, you need to select a builder unit and spend resources to start the build. You can place them anywhere you could make a building before, and there's no hard cap on how many you can have, but they will count towards your population. So if you decide to go full turtle-mode, you're trading resources and population that could have otherwise been spent on building a bigger army.
Annihilation comes in two flavors: Annihilation Classic and Annihilation with Defenses. The second mode, Annihilation with Defenses, starts you off with some turrets already built in pre-determined locations, regardless of whether or not you brought the doctrine to build more.
Is nice to hear you guys are going the right direction and forgetting about that core mess thing.... But buildable turrets should be available in game and not doctrine like every other Dawn of War game however that could come later in a patch.. If you continue that direction probably I and other RTS fans would get you game... Many people have criticized your game because it doesn't feel like a dow game so I think this move is in the right direction.. IMO and many other RTS fan Moba things in dow3 should die fast
@g0ll0 said:
Is nice to hear you guys are going the right direction and forgetting about that core mess thing.... But buildable turrets should be available in game and not doctrine like every other Dawn of War game however that could come later in a patch.. If you continue that direction probably I and other RTS fans would get you game... Many people have criticized your game because it doesn't feel like a dow game so I think this move is in the right direction.. IMO and many other RTS fan Moba things in dow3 should die fast
I understand that you hate MOBA, but it isn't a exaggerration?
I too like RTS so much, but in June 2015 i put my first step into MOBA genre by playing Heroes of the Storm, and this is the only MOBA I play to today. So I don't mind with MOBA elements that Dow3 has.
As for turrets, do you want to people spam turrets especially when close to enemy base, just like in Starcraft 2, where there is infamous Cannon rush? I wouldn't like that, even if I don't mind about turtling, but building just turrets closer to enemy base is so lame in my opinion. It makes also sense that turrets are a doctrine, while taking also population.
@g0ll0 said:
Is nice to hear you guys are going the right direction and forgetting about that core mess thing.... But buildable turrets should be available in game and not doctrine like every other Dawn of War game however that could come later in a patch.. If you continue that direction probably I and other RTS fans would get you game... Many people have criticized your game because it doesn't feel like a dow game so I think this move is in the right direction.. IMO and many other RTS fan Moba things in dow3 should die fast
DoW2 did not have buildable Turrets, unless you played Tech Marine, so not every DoW game had them.
@g0ll0 said:
Is nice to hear you guys are going the right direction and forgetting about that core mess thing.... But buildable turrets should be available in game and not doctrine like every other Dawn of War game however that could come later in a patch.. If you continue that direction probably I and other RTS fans would get you game... Many people have criticized your game because it doesn't feel like a dow game so I think this move is in the right direction.. IMO and many other RTS fan Moba things in dow3 should die fast
I understand that you hate MOBA, but it isn't a exaggerration?
I too like RTS so much, but in June 2015 i put my first step into MOBA genre by playing Heroes of the Storm, and this is the only MOBA I play to today. So I don't mind with MOBA elements that Dow3 has.
As for turrets, do you want to people spam turrets especially when close to enemy base, just like in Starcraft 2, where there is infamous Cannon rush? I wouldn't like that, even if I don't mind about turtling, but building just turrets closer to enemy base is so lame in my opinion. It makes also sense that turrets are a doctrine, while taking also population.
In DoW3 you can get combat units from your HQ building, so I dont think Cannon Rushes are going to be feasible.
You may see early middle map turrets, though.
Doctrine picks define your playstyle early. We added doctrines to give players a way to define different strategies based on their strengths and personal playstyles. Much like Elites, we wanted doctrines to have a meaningful impact in a player's strategy where skillful play is involved, rather than simply manifesting as outright benefits that require little input to be powerful. Ideally, games aren't won based on the choices you made before the game, in your loadout. If that's not the case, then doctrines aren't really a choice - and then that becomes a balance issue. Speaking of ...
Balance considerations. The nice thing about turrets being a doctrine is that it helps add another tuning knob if we run into the issue of map-based economy conflicting with static defenses. There was an earlier version of Dawn of War 3 where turrets ruined all of the fun, and when making changes to a tool that all players had from the get-go, there was a real risk of swinging the fun-meter too far in the other direction. This then turned it from "this doctrine isn't fun, let me pick another" into "this game isn't fun," and you didn't have a choice to opt-out. Additionally, turret doctrine usage will be easier to measure in the data. This will, over time, give us a clearer picture of how often they are used (and under what conditions), but also which playstyles are used as successful counters.
Visibility of opponent intentions. If you are entering a game and you see that doctrine selected - you have an early idea what kind of playstyle you're going up against. You may not know how and where the enemy may place their turrets, but you'd probably be mindful of stepping into range of the middle resource point without scouting first. If turrets were available to everyone without needing to select the doctrine, that's another layer of complexity and nuance that new players need to learn about when they start playing. As a doctrine, they'll have exposure to turrets in a more measured way, steadying that learning curve. And for veterans, it's a big neon sign saying "hey I might turtle, or heavily invest in a single resource point," which gives you an idea of how you'll want to build up your army to shut that down.
All that to say: we wanted turrets to be a choice to be made rather than something added to the entire game ecosystem. This gives us more avenues to balance as well as giving players more avenues to adjust to different playstyles. We'll keep an eye on usage and balance, however, and adjust if needed.
Hm, should I replace stronger listening posts doctrine and reinforce them with nearby turrets? Or should I replace reinforcing listening posts and get buildings on the frontlines protected with turrets? Or should I sacrifice fire on the move and get even strogner deffenses....? Decisions, decisions...
@OriGinS said:
I have a question though, what damage type will turrets have? Normal/Heavy/True
Normal!
Slighty too bad that without upgrading damage type to Heavy, but I can live without that.
Of course don't mind about turtling, but its lame when someone spams turrets closer to enemy HQ. Such thing was in SC2 thanks to infamous Cannon Rush tactic.
@Renner said:
Hm, should I replace stronger listening posts doctrine and reinforce them with nearby turrets? Or should I replace reinforcing listening posts and get buildings on the frontlines protected with turrets? Or should I sacrifice fire on the move and get even strogner deffenses....? Decisions, decisions...
LPs will probably be stronger than Turrets, less expensive aswell.
Turrets will most likely be good as an extra layer type thing, to deter mass Tacts with Tireless, or stopping 2 ASMs from sniping your shields in the early game.
@Draconix said:
Also I'm bit sad that right now there are no plans for more factions but I understand - that would require too much work for few months anyways.
They need to balance out stuff first, more factions will come when the game is more stable and appealing to much more players.
I would say this is a smart use of resources, the game mode was probably the most heavily critisized aspect of the game by critics and the general community so I'm glad you guys are willing to do changes outside of balance. Good work.
Out of curiosity, in custom games will their be a way in the future to scale the escalation phases to either increase or decrease the stock rate in the game? I feel the the escalation was probably the second most controversial aspect of the game and the ability to scale or even remove it would accommodate a wider range of gamers. It would help retain gamers who want the large scale battles but also please the DOW II/COH gamers at the same time.
Thank you for this @Kat_RE it feels like we are being listened to and it's appreciated. thsnk you for being transparent. I'm very excited for the new map And the mode.
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Comments
Stoner
Firstly gotta agree. If this mode would prove good, it belongs in Quick Match as well.
But secondly gotta disagree. I never understood what problem players have with looking for building, I mean if you trashed their base and they have 1 teleporting building, it's helluva lot faster to find it and kill off rather than Power Core, where you have to smash Turret and in 90% of cases in even games it happens in late t3. Most recent match vs. Ork took me whooping 57 minutes in 1v1, you think it's ok? Do you honestly think looking for base could take more time?
Ace40k
great plan ahead, Relic. and good job, Kat! really appreciate the update you have brought us!
however, i hope i get this right: these new turrets, will they be like buildable base turrets (like Waagh tower) but for all factions? (my most preferred option)
or will you place them somehow else?
or will you not place them at all and they are already pre-placed before match start? (least preferred)
again, highly appreciate your input but this saddens me a bit. i think at least a fourth faction is a MUST for a DoW game! i dont really care which one but it would highly increase variety and replay value!
thanks again for all your hard work!
Meltreness
The fourth faction will be hopefully released with a new single player campaign introducing it. So an expansion. I am really happy with the upcoming annihilation mode! Keep it up relic!
Valeran
@Kat_RE New map (Mortis Vale) will be classic non-simmetric and biug without lines? Or it will be anorther MOBA 3-lines tyle map?
Renner
I could agree over turrets being available without being a doctrinal choice, but just limited with quantity. How will you prevent a turret spam, especially in later escalation phases when you start getting a ton of resources...? Unless they are both doctrinal and limited in numbers, like 5 (just as Waaaagh towers)?
MCpBarantah
So if I understand correctly, no army DLC until player base raise up and/or balance is fixed ?
Dark_Ansem
We need Chaos and Necros. And we also need the full modding tools.
Draconix
They will not be limited, but they will take population instead.
Jazz_Sandwich
Classic maps have always had lanes. For instance, one of the clearest examples of this in dow1 wad one of the most popular maps, blood river, which has 3 obvious lanes. In Dow2 the same can be said of most maps. Argus desert gate anyone? Judgement of carrion? Argent shelf?
While there are exceptions, lanes and chokepoints have always been a mainstay of rts map design
Kat_RE
The turrets are essentially buildable base turrets, but in order to build them you need to equip the doctrine. Each faction will have this option, and the doctrines will be given for free in the update.
To build them in-game, you need to select a builder unit and spend resources to start the build. You can place them anywhere you could make a building before, and there's no hard cap on how many you can have, but they will count towards your population. So if you decide to go full turtle-mode, you're trading resources and population that could have otherwise been spent on building a bigger army.
Annihilation comes in two flavors: Annihilation Classic and Annihilation with Defenses. The second mode, Annihilation with Defenses, starts you off with some turrets already built in pre-determined locations, regardless of whether or not you brought the doctrine to build more.
Ace40k
yay, amazing!
thanks a lot and keep up the incredible work!!!! 
Pringworm
Why the doctrine slot?
g0ll0
Is nice to hear you guys are going the right direction and forgetting about that core mess thing.... But buildable turrets should be available in game and not doctrine like every other Dawn of War game however that could come later in a patch.. If you continue that direction probably I and other RTS fans would get you game... Many people have criticized your game because it doesn't feel like a dow game so I think this move is in the right direction.. IMO and many other RTS fan Moba things in dow3 should die fast
Draconix
I understand that you hate MOBA, but it isn't a exaggerration?
I too like RTS so much, but in June 2015 i put my first step into MOBA genre by playing Heroes of the Storm, and this is the only MOBA I play to today. So I don't mind with MOBA elements that Dow3 has.
As for turrets, do you want to people spam turrets especially when close to enemy base, just like in Starcraft 2, where there is infamous Cannon rush? I wouldn't like that, even if I don't mind about turtling, but building just turrets closer to enemy base is so lame in my opinion. It makes also sense that turrets are a doctrine, while taking also population.
jonoliveira12
DoW2 did not have buildable Turrets, unless you played Tech Marine, so not every DoW game had them.
jonoliveira12
In DoW3 you can get combat units from your HQ building, so I dont think Cannon Rushes are going to be feasible.
You may see early middle map turrets, though.
Grithok
So are you adding buildable turrets or doctrines that let you build turrets. Because one of these things is bad and one is good.
jonoliveira12
Doctrines that allow for Turrets, and no, that is not bad.
OriGinS
Seeing as the 90% of the Eldar doctrines are gimmicky, and the early game is rough, maybe getting the turret doctrine won't be a bad idea.
I have a question though, what damage type will turrets have? Normal/Heavy/True
Kat_RE
Whew - I hope you don't mind a long post.
Here's a bit of insight as to why:
Doctrine picks define your playstyle early. We added doctrines to give players a way to define different strategies based on their strengths and personal playstyles. Much like Elites, we wanted doctrines to have a meaningful impact in a player's strategy where skillful play is involved, rather than simply manifesting as outright benefits that require little input to be powerful. Ideally, games aren't won based on the choices you made before the game, in your loadout. If that's not the case, then doctrines aren't really a choice - and then that becomes a balance issue. Speaking of ...
Balance considerations. The nice thing about turrets being a doctrine is that it helps add another tuning knob if we run into the issue of map-based economy conflicting with static defenses. There was an earlier version of Dawn of War 3 where turrets ruined all of the fun, and when making changes to a tool that all players had from the get-go, there was a real risk of swinging the fun-meter too far in the other direction. This then turned it from "this doctrine isn't fun, let me pick another" into "this game isn't fun," and you didn't have a choice to opt-out. Additionally, turret doctrine usage will be easier to measure in the data. This will, over time, give us a clearer picture of how often they are used (and under what conditions), but also which playstyles are used as successful counters.
Visibility of opponent intentions. If you are entering a game and you see that doctrine selected - you have an early idea what kind of playstyle you're going up against. You may not know how and where the enemy may place their turrets, but you'd probably be mindful of stepping into range of the middle resource point without scouting first. If turrets were available to everyone without needing to select the doctrine, that's another layer of complexity and nuance that new players need to learn about when they start playing. As a doctrine, they'll have exposure to turrets in a more measured way, steadying that learning curve. And for veterans, it's a big neon sign saying "hey I might turtle, or heavily invest in a single resource point," which gives you an idea of how you'll want to build up your army to shut that down.
All that to say: we wanted turrets to be a choice to be made rather than something added to the entire game ecosystem. This gives us more avenues to balance as well as giving players more avenues to adjust to different playstyles. We'll keep an eye on usage and balance, however, and adjust if needed.
Kat_RE
Normal!
jonoliveira12
So it is as I thought, a T1 over-aggression stopper, for factions and play styles that cannot compete with just units.
Renner
Hm, should I replace stronger listening posts doctrine and reinforce them with nearby turrets? Or should I replace reinforcing listening posts and get buildings on the frontlines protected with turrets? Or should I sacrifice fire on the move and get even strogner deffenses....? Decisions, decisions...
Draconix
Slighty too bad that without upgrading damage type to Heavy, but I can live without that.
Of course don't mind about turtling, but its lame when someone spams turrets closer to enemy HQ. Such thing was in SC2 thanks to infamous Cannon Rush tactic.
jonoliveira12
LPs will probably be stronger than Turrets, less expensive aswell.
Turrets will most likely be good as an extra layer type thing, to deter mass Tacts with Tireless, or stopping 2 ASMs from sniping your shields in the early game.
Draconix
Also I'm bit sad that right now there are no plans for more factions but I understand - that would require too much work for few months anyways.
jonoliveira12
They need to balance out stuff first, more factions will come when the game is more stable and appealing to much more players.
Donnergott
Next steps for you Relic/Sega. The biggest problem we have is that so much players dont buy the game or dont want to play!
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/13653/so-what-can-you-do-relicsega
Killhippies
I would say this is a smart use of resources, the game mode was probably the most heavily critisized aspect of the game by critics and the general community so I'm glad you guys are willing to do changes outside of balance. Good work.
Out of curiosity, in custom games will their be a way in the future to scale the escalation phases to either increase or decrease the stock rate in the game? I feel the the escalation was probably the second most controversial aspect of the game and the ability to scale or even remove it would accommodate a wider range of gamers. It would help retain gamers who want the large scale battles but also please the DOW II/COH gamers at the same time.
BlessedSpartan
Thank you for this @Kat_RE it feels like we are being listened to and it's appreciated. thsnk you for being transparent. I'm very excited for the new map And the mode.