Make drop pods start on cooldown

Praxis

Bonesinger teleport was given a cool down because apparently it gave Eldar too much of an early game advantage ,despite Eldar needing to set up expensive and vulnerable web way gates but hey.

Marines on the other hand can currently deploy shielded units (that are already durable) one top of you with knockdown and and can deploy an aoe shield with knockdown when contesting initial resource points.

MaxwellsDaemon

Aye - I completely agree.
The only thing I can think to compete is to build a DA squad first or second have a bone singer immediately build an aspect portal and then you can start building your second squad of choice and you can teleport your aspect portal near to the first DA squad.

It's still not great because DA's aren't cost efficient or even equal vs tacs so it means all the SM's rec can go on tacs whereas you have to work with the build time of an aspect portal and the extra 200 (so the first banshee or DR squad costs 640 or 635/10 effectively).

This does mean you can get 2 units on the field at roughly the same price and time (about 950 rec).

Ofc this doesn't factor in the cost of webway gates and the fact that tac marines usually win the first committed engagement with banner and drop pods...so you also have to make sure you don't get forced off and lose your aspect portal and webway.

It's not good as Eldar and you have to play the first engagement as a feint and run away simply ceding the area to space marines in the hope you can make gains elsewhere or retake the ground when the fight is less stacked against you.

Ofc this means you are often fighting into a listening post (very often an improved one as well) which means the fight is still stacked.

But hey - that's the balance for you at
the moment. I just can't win the first engagement against good SM players if it happens super early....maybe others can?

Skemooo

not on full cooldown just 120 secs only at the start ..they have a 280 sec cooldown default that would be a little bad..

Stoner

Building in droppod takes time. Without Pod and Banner SM would be completely toothless against anybody, and Orks, as well as decent Eldar player can deal with SM pretty easily without these nerfs. What's the point of stripping SM of their only way of survival?

I can only agree on Banner starting on cooldown (not full), but only if it wouldn't be possible to capture it while SM army stands on top of it, because right now it's a joke.

Praxis

@Skemooo said:
not on full cooldown just 120 secs only at the start ..they have a 280 sec cooldown default that would be a little bad..

True taking build time into account probably not a full cool down. Or maybe even just make drop pod units lose the shields.

AngelofDeth

@Praxis said:

@Skemooo said:
not on full cooldown just 120 secs only at the start ..they have a 280 sec cooldown default that would be a little bad..

True taking build time into account probably not a full cool down. Or maybe even just make drop pod units lose the shields.

Yeah, remove the shield. Shields for ASM in early game is too much. They're already tanky.

MaxwellsDaemon

I'd rather take the cooldown and have the shield.

I honestly think the issue is how fast they can get there units in the field. Perhaps with Tireless nerf this will be less of an issue.

Stoner

Those suggestions sound, but they are very dangerous. See, I can agree that Banner in very early skirmish can turn the tide and if opponent isn't idiot, you'll either have to suffer big loses or just retreat and give up some piece of map control, so it's usually no win situation. Technically I've seen when opponent was able to capture and hold Banner (which you cannot really prevent) and pushed SM back but that's generally bad positioning of your forces or Banner.

What I don't see as very fair mechanic is that Ork as progress can easily keep 100% of Waaagh uptime, while Banner has pretty long CD, and you might not have it available when you need it most. And Eldar just have perma buff and as they progress, they gain full map coverage, so that's pretty much 100% uptime as well. It compensates by nice effects on Banner as you tech, but it's hard to measure what is more efficient. I'd probably choose perma banner with weaker effects over what we have now. Seen and experienced plenty of games when banner was wasted and smart enemy counterattack resulted in stomping SM.

AngelofDeth

@Stoner said:
Those suggestions sound, but they are very dangerous. See, I can agree that Banner in very early skirmish can turn the tide and if opponent isn't idiot, you'll either have to suffer big loses or just retreat and give up some piece of map control, so it's usually no win situation. Technically I've seen when opponent was able to capture and hold Banner (which you cannot really prevent) and pushed SM back but that's generally bad positioning of your forces or Banner.

What I don't see as very fair mechanic is that Ork as progress can easily keep 100% of Waaagh uptime, while Banner has pretty long CD, and you might not have it available when you need it most. And Eldar just have perma buff and as they progress, they gain full map coverage, so that's pretty much 100% uptime as well. It compensates by nice effects on Banner as you tech, but it's hard to measure what is more efficient. I'd probably choose perma banner with weaker effects over what we have now. Seen and experienced plenty of games when banner was wasted and smart enemy counterattack resulted in stomping SM.

still, in late game, SM could just press the drop pod button and drop as many dreads as you want + banner and orbital bombardment and win the game. Of course, the positioning must be good but you can dropped right under the squad which gives you huge advantage and probably will win the fight.

Larkis

@AngelofDeth said:

@Stoner said:
Those suggestions sound, but they are very dangerous. See, I can agree that Banner in very early skirmish can turn the tide and if opponent isn't idiot, you'll either have to suffer big loses or just retreat and give up some piece of map control, so it's usually no win situation. Technically I've seen when opponent was able to capture and hold Banner (which you cannot really prevent) and pushed SM back but that's generally bad positioning of your forces or Banner.

What I don't see as very fair mechanic is that Ork as progress can easily keep 100% of Waaagh uptime, while Banner has pretty long CD, and you might not have it available when you need it most. And Eldar just have perma buff and as they progress, they gain full map coverage, so that's pretty much 100% uptime as well. It compensates by nice effects on Banner as you tech, but it's hard to measure what is more efficient. I'd probably choose perma banner with weaker effects over what we have now. Seen and experienced plenty of games when banner was wasted and smart enemy counterattack resulted in stomping SM.

still, in late game, SM could just press the drop pod button and drop as many dreads as you want + banner and orbital bombardment and win the game. Of course, the positioning must be good but you can dropped right under the squad which gives you huge advantage and probably will win the fight.

And Orkz have a neverending waaagh when you use your 5 towers correct and have truckz which reinforce every unit directly on the field. Also the trukk change every unit into a ASM Style and got an artillery shot for free.

And Eldar can teleport there Buildings and units everywhere on the map (would be really funny in annihilation without base protection. ) csn freeze complete Armys and just dragg everyone in there kyre killzone.

Sorry that SM has there own small advantages.

AngelofDeth

@Larkis said:

And Orkz have a neverending waaagh when you use your 5 towers correct and have truckz which reinforce every unit directly on the field. Also the trukk change every unit into a ASM Style and got an artillery shot for free.

And Eldar can teleport there Buildings and units everywhere on the map (would be really funny in annihilation without base protection. ) csn freeze complete Armys and just dragg everyone in there kyre killzone.

Sorry that SM has there own small advantages.

SM can do better or same as the Eldar, just place your scout at the shield gen and drop everything you want to backdoor. Atleast orks didn't have click a ''click the button'' mechanic to win then pop out of nowhere. Many pros said that they rather play SM because they're by far the easiest race to use and not need to micro hard like the Eldar. You won't find eldar tier 3 like SM tier 3 which can drop everything and they don't have super aoe preds, dreads, whirlwind, etc. Prism is useless in 1v1 and I won't thinking of purchasing that paper. Wraithblade died by preds and dreads before they could reach their target. Wraithguard get dropped pod-ed and kited easily. If you're saying SM is the weakest then sorry, you have to learn more.

Larkis

@AngelofDeth said:

SM can do better or same as the Eldar, just place your scout at the shield gen and drop everything you want to backdoor.

And that is easy counterable if you get map vision and take care on enemy scouts. If you dont conter it you deserve defeat. Also Marines could use this for only 3 units with a huge cooldown with build time and ressource costs. Eldar can do the same just with a small cooldown and there whole army. Hold your army near your webwaygate, teleport an other building near the shield gen, connect both building and teleport EVERYTHING in range of the the shieldgen. Wait cooldown and to the same on an other place.

Atleast orks didn't have click a ''click the button'' mechanic to win then pop out of nowhere.

Trucks could catapult every unit everywhare + Artillery strike.

Weird Boy can teleport the complete org army into the enemy. The enemy has a few seconds to detect the weird boy and to interrupt him. If he fail, happy mosching.

Many pros said that they rather play SM because they're by far the easiest race to use and not need to micro hard like the Eldar. You won't find eldar tier 3 like SM tier 3 which can drop everything and they don't have super aoe preds, dreads, whirlwind, etc. Prism is useless in 1v1 and I won't thinking of purchasing that paper. Wraithblade died by preds and dreads before they could reach their target. Wraithguard get dropped pod-ed and kited easily. If you're saying SM is the weakest then sorry, you have to learn more.

Sure SM is the easiest race to use. But they also limitet in there Options.

Eldar have Wraiths with there jail-free ability which safe all of them make it really really hard to kill them. They could allways reinforce at the front and you will never able to harass there production buildings cause they just warp away.

And i never said that SM are the weakest. I think mostly the game is good balanced.

The "only" problem in my eyes is currently that pre-patch the only way Marines could go is ASM mass + Predator lategame. (imo) Now they hase a much bether early game so they could try different things and people need to learn to adapt. SOme things are broken or unbalanced, but in other terms it could only be that the successfull counter strategy was not found.

ALso preads and dreads have very high cost. If your enemy is able to build a lot of them, then you lost the game long before.

MaxwellsDaemon

@Larkis

Feels like a tad bit of bias your post if you ask me (not that anyone did:p).

The issue is SM are strongest, more or less in all tiers and really aren't limited by options.

Almost every unit in the SM roster has a purpose being on the battlefield late game or early game- they scale so much better than Eldar and moderately so compared to Orks.

As an Eldar your choice of units late game basically revolve around wraith guard, fire prisms or dark reapers +a ranger for vision.

If you're feeling lucky you can chance it on Wraith blades but they rarely pay off.

Shadow spectres don't actually do a better job of pushing objectives than dark reapers as they have a shorter range and tend to just get focused down easier. (the only purpose they serve imo is kiting a melee walker of heavy armour melee infantry).

Larkis

@MaxwellsDaemon said:
@Larkis

Feels like a tad bit of bias your post if you ask me (not that anyone did:p).

Nope i hope, im neutral in that things. I personally have mostly no favorite race. I like to play every 3.

I think marines are the easiest and on same side borest race to play.

Eldar forgive the most errors, cause you cant really safe a lot when getting in a bad position. And it hase the best elites (in my eyes, the elites most fun to play with) but lacks on the unit part. Orkz are the funniest faction but really hard to play.

The issue is SM are strongest, more or less in all tiers and really aren't limited by options.

Almost every unit in the SM roster has a purpose being on the battlefield late game or early game- they scale so much better than Eldar and moderately so compared to Orks.

As an Eldar your choice of units late game basically revolve around wraith guard, fire prisms or dark reapers +a ranger for vision.

If you're feeling lucky you can chance it on Wraith blades but they rarely pay off.

Shadow spectres don't actually do a better job of pushing objectives than dark reapers as they have a shorter range and tend to just get focused down easier. (the only purpose they serve imo is kiting a melee walker of heavy armour melee infantry).

I see the same like you. But the problem is not the marines, it is that eldar are poorly designt. They have a lot useless units (shadow spectres at front. Also all scimmers cost so much you really could not efford buying a sky portal in a normal match (imo).

They should make the scimmers much cheaper, in the same price region like the wraiths to make them usefull. Also the shadow spectres should work like the las-cannons devastators, that they keep there damage when chaning targets.

I dont see the problem on marines, i see the problem on eldar.

tritol

Make CD/build penalty/drop pod unit cost scale with escalation phases (lot of stuff could scale with that). With that you could even unlock all 3 early and make them viable whole game.

Make some changes to drop pod doctrines so you have to sacrifice something to be able to use proper "Steel Rain".

Make them buy-able instead of waiting for cd which makes choice 2 squads or drop pod+squad.

Only problem I see is that you can deliver drop pod unit actually faster than you can send normal unit, build+walk=/=build+drop. I think that giving them long cd (means longer than like 20s) could actually hurt instead of help.

These are just ideas or thoughts. I really have no opinion on this, hell I didnt even had problem with porting boners.

Praxis

I think the most annoying thing about drop pods is in 2v2 or 3v3 where multiple SM players can instantly reinforce key resource points.

AngelofDeth

What if drop pod and standard starts on cooldown at the beginning? Will SM still go for 2 tact or 1 tact and 1 ASM at the beginning? This, we could see the diversity and SM had to carefully make their decision in the early because now they don't have to worry about anything since they got drop pod and standard early game. I'm not sure this is a good idea, orks' waaghh need to start on cooldown too at the beginning then since SM will have no chance in the early. This might look boring but it's the only way for the other races to sustain early game, then we can have lots of fun in the mid and late game.

Stoner

@AngelofDeth said:
What if drop pod and standard starts on cooldown at the beginning? Will SM still go for 2 tact or 1 tact and 1 ASM at the beginning? This, we could see the diversity and SM had to carefully make their decision in the early because now they don't have to worry about anything since they got drop pod and standard early game. I'm not sure this is a good idea, orks' waaghh need to start on cooldown too at the beginning then since SM will have no chance in the early. This might look boring but it's the only way for the other races to sustain early game, then we can have lots of fun in the mid and late game.

Build you pointed out works only in mirrors or vs. noobs. Any semi-decent player will destroy tac spam, especially post patch.

AngelofDeth

@Stoner said:

@AngelofDeth said:
What if drop pod and standard starts on cooldown at the beginning? Will SM still go for 2 tact or 1 tact and 1 ASM at the beginning? This, we could see the diversity and SM had to carefully make their decision in the early because now they don't have to worry about anything since they got drop pod and standard early game. I'm not sure this is a good idea, orks' waaghh need to start on cooldown too at the beginning then since SM will have no chance in the early. This might look boring but it's the only way for the other races to sustain early game, then we can have lots of fun in the mid and late game.

Build you pointed out works only in mirrors or vs. noobs. Any semi-decent player will destroy tac spam, especially post patch.

Yes but not in the early game where you can dropped pod and banner-ed them to death especially eldar.

BRabbit

And Orkz have a neverending waaagh when you use your 5 towers correct and have truckz which reinforce every unit directly on the field. Also the trukk change every unit into a ASM Style and got an artillery shot for free.

And Eldar can teleport there Buildings and units everywhere on the map (would be really funny in annihilation without base protection. ) csn freeze complete Armys and just dragg everyone in there kyre killzone.

Sorry that SM has there own small advantages.

And SM can drop in your base and take out core when ever they feel like it.
Its takes much more micro to do the cool stuff with eldar or orks, then it is to press 1 button with SM.

LOOOOOOOL
either you were bad ++heresy redacted++ smoking some weed or you were trolling.

Stoner

@Nassir_Amit said:
why not make it accessable through an orbital relais beacon like DoW 1?

Because pods were brutally underused in DOW I and even in DOW II. Relic at least got droppod system nailed with DOW III, and I'm grateful for that. Considering other racial mechanics, pods are fine atm and don't need any adjustments.

Stoner

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Stoner said:

@Nassir_Amit said:
why not make it accessable through an orbital relais beacon like DoW 1?

Because pods were brutally underused in DOW I and even in DOW II. Relic at least got droppod system nailed with DOW III, and I'm grateful for that. Considering other racial mechanics, pods are fine atm and don't need any adjustments.

Hm, what about an ability of loading produced troops into pods through an relais?

See, we'll get into helluva lots of details if we really have to break it down. Ork has much better capabilities at building and defending forward bases, Eldar map presence is the best in the game with TP buildings and units + speed, and SM has slow troops and fragile buildings, so to be competitive, they need forward deployment and in general picture it works. If one thing will be tweaked (like pods or banner), it will cause chain reaction, so every other racial feature must be tweaked accordingly.

There are more pressing issues with gameplay and balance, while those systems work, let's not touch them for now I suppose.