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Balance Feedback: June 21, 2017
Kat_RE
Hey everyone!
We heard you loud and clear. In response to your feedback, we’re releasing a balance patch to address top balance concerns next week. In this post, we’re going to lay out our proposed changes to get your initial feedback for this and future balance updates.
Please note: these balance notes are subject to change.
General
Our increase to the base Requisition rate made early game Listening Posts a no-brainer, which we feel are too effective at holding their ground relative to their cost. As a result, we’d like to increase their cost so that the choice of where to bunker down needs to be a more strategic one.
- Listening post cost increased from 200 to 300
Skimmer Unit Pathing
If you’ve ever controlled a group of skimmers, you know that occasionally they will perform fantastical wild turns when the distance doesn’t warrant it. Here at Relic, we’re holding a moment of silence for all the skimmers that were needlessly lost while trying to perform acrobatic feats in the midst of battle. We have a change we’re testing that should replace these instances with shorter reverse-pivot turns. This will be of benefit to all skimmer units, though it will have a greater effect on Eldar players due to the number of skimmer units they have available. We also want to increase the rate at which they scale vertical objects, as that can also lead to them feeling unresponsive.
- Skimmers will now prefer to do shorter reverse-pivot moves instead of curve turns over short distances (these were particularly noticeable with move commands issued slightly behind and to the side of the skimmer)
- Increasing vertical traverse speed
Eldar
Once win rates settled after launch, it became clear that the Eldar were imbalanced. They had a much higher win rate than both Space Marines and Orks, though they were especially strong versus Space Marines. Dire Avengers were overwhelmingly picked over other early game options and the Wraithlord’s Improved Webways doctrine was nearing a unanimous pick rate in the upper skill brackets.
However, the combination of our May 31st Eldar changes and the improvements to not only Tactical Marines - but also to resource generation - have exposed the general weakness of the Eldar early game. Since the trading capability of Dire Avengers was weakened, we’ve consequently seen that win rate flip the other direction.
Perhaps more importantly, webway teleportation changed in a big way. Eldar players were almost unanimously using the Improved Webways doctrine, which allowed them to circumvent the intended counterplay for the faction - Eldar are intended to build multiple webways to maintain their mobility advantage across larger areas. The webways themselves need to be vulnerable once the opponent figures out where they are. That being said, we understand that players liked how it felt to be so mobile all of the time, so we’ll continue to keep an eye on two things 1) win rates and overall balance concerns, but also 2) do they feel appropriately Eldar?
Despite wanting to knock their early game mobility down a peg, it had a big impact on how it feels to play Eldar. As a result, we want to recapture some more of the hit-and-run flavour but still make webway gates feel worth their value.
General
- Eldar infantry unit speed increased by 1 across the board
- Bonesinger increased from 6 to 7
- Dire Avengers increased from 6 to 7
- Dark Reapers increased from 5 to 6
- Howling Banshees increased from 6 to 7
- Shadow Spectres increased from 5.5 to 6.5
- Rangers increased from 6 to 7
Webway Gate
- Speed bonus for non-elite infantry decreased from 3 to 2
- Speed bonus for Vehicles, Wraith and Elite units remains unaffected
- Requisition cost decreased from 150 to 125
- Power cost decreased from 30 to 25
Autarch Kyre
We know this guy is too powerful, so we’re looking to address the counterplay and the way units are clustering so that his combo is a bit harder to land and not quite as devastating without support.
We can explore further changes such as capping the number of units he can pull with Eldritch Winds. Interestingly, we noticed that Kyre does not have a melee charge, but we’d like to re-evaluate Kyre when we were we he lands after these changes.
- After units are pulled to him, they are now knocked back, scattering them over a 15m area and preventing them from clumping on top of one another when landing
- Reduced speed of Eldritch Winds projectile from 15 to 12
Dire Avengers
Previously Dire Avengers were effective enough to deal with most situations such that there wasn’t much need to use other units until Tier 2. After we reduced their range and reduced the shield doctrine, we noticed their usage swung too far in the other direction. Giving back some of their range will allow them to exploit their speed even outside of webway range.
- Dire Avengers range increased from 30 to 35
Shadow Spectres
These units have a very low build rate, which isn’t ideal for a unit that’s supposed to function as anti-vehicle. We think that the combination of the Eldar speed increase, a Power cost reduction and increased formation size should make them less susceptible to area of effect damage. This, in turn, will make them more viable.
- Power reduced from 30 to 15
- Increased formation size
Wraithblades
Like Shadow Spectres, these units are not built very often. We are considering altering their ability, but that will take more development and testing time to implement. In the meantime, we did observe that they often have trouble getting into melee in a timely manner and we plan on addressing that by slightly increasing their melee weapon range and giving them a passive charge.
- Increased Shields from 1725 to 1890
- Increased Health from 1150 to 1260
- Added passive melee charge on Wraithblades which has 10 range, a 10 second cooldown, lasts 5 seconds and grants 4 movement speed
This puts it in line with other melee walkers (Deff Dread, Dreadnought, Mad Dread, Wraithlord) when it comes to timing how quickly they can close the gap
- Increased weapon range from 1 to 2
Space Marines
Overall, the Space Marines versus Ork matchup is very close to dead even, though it varies a bit per skill bracket. Although they’re in a better spot and while we are buffing Eldar, we do still feel there are a few issues that need addressing.
We’ve already addressed Tireless in this week’s patch, but we felt that we needed to dig a little deeper, as the Space Marine’s effectiveness doesn’t stem from a single doctrine choice.
Assault Marines
Recent changes to Assault Marines put them in a much better place and that perhaps other units (such as Howling Banshees) needed some help. One thing we did notice was that their passive charge range was extremely long and slightly faster than comparable melee units. This improved their ability to get on top of and stay on top of units even more pronounced than it should have been. Given that Assault Marines already have a tremendous gap-closing advantage thanks to Jump, their passive charge should be brought in-line with other units.
- Reduced passive melee charge range from 30 to 10
- Reduced passive melee charge speed bonus from 4 to 3
Diomedes
Diomedes isn’t being fielded as often as we’d like, and we think that reducing his Elite Point cost should greatly improve his viability. The other benefit is that by introducing another 3 point Elite, Space Marines will have more to choose from at that stage of the game.
- Elite Point cost reduced from 4 to 3
- Health reduced from 3600 to 3100
- Respawn time reduced from 240 to 200
Predator Destructor & Annihilator
Alright, we admit that our last patch pushed the Predator Destructor too far. Our concern was that the role of this unit was muddy compared to its Annihilator counterpart, but as a result we’ve created a unit that is too effective versus all things, including the units that were meant to counter it. The plan is to bring down its damage, which consequently makes the Destructor versus Annihilator choice much more situational. Relative to other factions, they are a tad cheap to field. Based on the way we calculate population cost (based on unit price), this actually increases their population cost by 2.
Predator Destructor
- Damage decreased from 200 to 150
- Power cost increased from 275 to 300
- Population cost increased from 17 to 19
Predator Annihilator
- Power cost increased from 275 to 300
- Population cost increased from 17 to 19
Orks
Nobz
Nobz are a really useful unit and we don’t want to do anything too drastic, but we do feel that their Taunt range makes it too easy to land on too many units.
- Taunt radius reduced from 20 to 15
Shoota Boyz
Shoota Boyz are a lot more viable now and while Stikkbombs are intended to deal more damage than other grenades, we want to reduce it a bit.
- Stikkbomb damage decreased from 90 to 60
- Tonz ‘o Bombz: Stikkbomb damage decreased from 90 to 60
Gretchin
Oops, we neglected to change the Gretchins’ population cost when we looked at all the other units.
- Gretchin population cost reduced from 4 to 1
Stormboyz
- Their upgraded Suicide Bomma from scrap will do less damage versus structures
A note on doctrines
We’re aware that there are doctrines for each faction that are dominant and others that are not. We’ll be addressing this with slight nerfs, but mostly buffs. This will take longer because we have to consider and test how much these changes can act as a multiplier for overperforming units. This may occur over several patch cycles, but rest assured that we’re keeping a close eye on them!
Please feel free to share your thoughts!
Comments
Firestone
why do you nerf assult marine? assult marine's cost-effectiveness is not good... this balance patch makes that elder is most strongest faction...so maybe you will balance patch that elder nerf again...
frumpylumps
More knee jerk balance changes in response to over represented complaints, several perpetuated by popular casters. Unfortunately, there aren't enough top players playing this game to get comprehensive data.
This is an overreaction to complaints of Eldar weakness and they are going to be completely overpowered again if these changes go through. Can't believe you are buffing shadow specters just because people are too dumb to use them.
jonoliveira12
Finally, my Dire Avengers will be able to skirmish again!
Thanks.
Also:
Why nerf Diomedes health? He is a great tank, and that is why I use him myself, otherwise Gabe is just better.
Wardemon
I really appreciate you guys hard work on this game and taking very clear steps to improve on every front.
The thing that pops out at me the most while looking at these proposed changes is the change to Diomedes. While I do agree with trying to bring his point cost down since he can't really compete with the chance to get angelos for 4 pts most times. I feel a lot of concern with having to lower his health while not adding anything to make him more usable. I understand that lowering his point cost and keeping his health the same might be too much (When I play with Diomedes he feels so vulnerable but when I play AGAINST him he feels suuper tanky) but at the same time he has one job to do and it feels hard to get him to use his one ability effectively so now I predict he will be a little more likely to be taken earlier for a lower point cost but will be even less effective at doing his one niche job than he was before. It really feels like he may need another ability to fall back on to make him more well rounded but I haven't come up with what yet.
jonoliveira12
Yes, and his health lowered by 500 points no less. Jonah is a better pick this way. The thing Dio had going on for him, were his tankiness and his shield boost while criting.
DaDokisinX
Excellent changes I see here. I agree with almost all of it.
If I could add something, I still feel like Banshees should receive a slight DPS buff. At the moment they aren't as lethal as they should be versus units like boyz or ASM that mob your fragile back lines.
jonoliveira12
As an Eldar player, Banshees are fine as they are, they just needed a bit more speed, so they do not get shot up so bad while approaching the units they are supposed to counter.
vindicarex
Great changes overall - can't say I disagree with anything - I particularly like the LP change and the taunt/stikkbomb nerfs.
Personally, I think Banshees need a slight DPS boost and Dark Reapers a reduction in tear-down time (and ranger not costing 25 power), but overall the patch is moving in the right direction. But now that untis are faster out of webway radius and that webways are cheaper could be enough to give Eldar the edge back in early game.
Guziol
Great stuff. But please tell me you are aware that diomedes has no true damage bonus on zeal as he is supposed to if you are looking at him. Also banshee's and their quick strike feel like they are not in a good spot. Eaither make it cheaper or better. Give it knock-up effect like it had in pre-release spotlight videos maybe?
jonoliveira12
A 500 point change is huge, though. That might actually make one of the few Elites that scaled well into lategame, a lesser pick than before.
I could get behind a 200-300 hp point nerf, but this sounds like it will be too much.
Spooky
The Eldar changes all seem reasonable. I really like the base movement speed increase for Eldar infantry. As an Eldar player and avid viewer of high level matches and streamers I feel like that is the most appropriate way to combat the loss of T1 webway teleportation. Avengers getting some range back is another thing I was advocating for to bring them back up to par. Good stuff all around. Poor Kyre though, he wants to charge into melee like everyone else. Shadow Spectre and Wraithblade love as well hot ++heresy redacted++ we are on a roll!
The proposed change to Diomedes seems cool and interesting for sure. I have a feeling SM players aren't going to be too pleased with more ASM nerfs though. The reduction in both charge range and speed seems to be too much as listed currently. Let them keep some of their charge range at least to help combat the revitalized Eldar without feeling the need to going back to Assault Leap all the time. Don't get me wrong they are a great unit at the moment still, but it's a fine line I think.
Sorry Orks. The AoE Gods have taken notice of your heresy and righteous vengeance hath been wrought. Seriously though, the Ork changes look on point as well. Maybe Stikkbombs could retain a bit more of their damage.
jonoliveira12
The Annihilator was not nerfed, the Destructor was.
ShadowseercB
Thank you for addressing Eldar weakness early game.
Spooky
This reminds me. Whats the deal with Killa Kans? Are they being looked at? And some players will hate me for this, but I have to mention it. Beauty... I love Orks really I do, but when I see cheese I gotta call it out. If we're going to talk about Kyre we gotta talk about Beauty as well.
charlando
Well, time to get my kicks in with my shielded predator destructor spam before the new patch hits.
Better shield than a fire prism. And its not even an eldar unit!
jonoliveira12
I think they might be too much, but it is true that ASM still overperform in T1 engagements.
Gosu
great patch. but where is kommando booby trap patch...?
TheSi1entKing
Kyre needed a nerf i don't think decreasing the speed of his winds was warranted however the first nerf of not having units clump up together should have done the trick.
Dark reapers need a little bit more loving by decreasing set up times.
Banchees need a increase in DPs Sligthly
SM drop pod needs to be moved to tier 2. I don't understand why thats so hard to grasp and understand how IMBA that is in tier 1. In dow 1 the orbital relay was a tier 3 structure.
SM flammer needs a slight nerf by decreasing damage done & allowing it to be tied up in melee.
Kommando trap needs to be nerfed a little, that is basically the ork kyre.
jonoliveira12
I have to admit, his nerfs are good. He can still setup army wipes, I imagine, just not by himself. His grenades might have become useless though.
TheSi1entKing
yeah his bombs are useless its so hard to control him if trying to hit units scattered.
Jelly
Looks good. 3-point Diomedes could really shake things up.
Seems we might see a 3 faction Project Bellum tournament after all.
Orkgretchin
really excited for the skimmer fix/update. glad destructor and annihilator r getting nerfed cause they r rlly strong compared to other tier 3 units. looking forward to the patch
Stoner
Dire Avengers needed only small damage buff, not range. With higher passive speed, cheap unit will be kiting and outshooting every other in that category again...
Stop nerfing ASM ffs... If you keep doing this, drop their req price to 450 at least, most expensive T1 unit who can't even close gap now, great...
Thanks for burying Chaplain even deeper into the ground. Deathwatch will now outperform two 3pt Elites. Funny.
Kyre will be mostly the same with those changes, obviously.
Nobs taunt change will be so insignificant, I'm not sure it will make any impact at all. Problem with them isn't that they taunt units far away, problem is trukk launch+taunt+nuke...
What about Da Kommando? What about Squiggs?
Eh... I see how even more ppl leaving DOW 3 when patch hits. My bets are with new patch we'll get this: Eldar>Ork>SM. This is almost comical, on launch there was Eldar>SM>Ork, next patch: Ork>SM>Eldar, now this. Guess I'll take a brake in July to see where it goes next. I mean I appreciate Relics attempt to balance stuff, but most of changes weren't even suggested and uncalled for. Same thing what happened with Pred post-patch.
DmonBlu
U guys overdid it AGAIN lul. Dont reduce Diomedes HP like that he is supposed to be a tank. Instead make him slower and hit weaker that will do. Most changes to SM are unreasonable the problem is tacs not ASM they do not need another nerf. The cancer tanks are overpriced now nobody is gonna build them while Big Trakks just roll over everything. Eldar seems fine and dandy though their vehicles can use some love especially the fire prism (seriously they are too overpriced). Oh about the flamer... yeah I know there are a lot of issues with this and I think u guys should add a 0,5 secs charge time for it so bad players can dodge them easier because most ppl aint koreans they cant predict or react very fast especially the warhammer community. Ork can use some late game nerf to big trakk though most games dont go this late (I know they are supposed to be good late game but ....this good? This is IMBA lul). Anyways great patch:))
CANNED_F3TUS
Good stuff but i dont think diomedes will make that hell of alot difference for one less elite point. He can still get kited endlessly and his fury generation isnt that high. Maybe buff his ranged damage a lil bit.
AngelofDeth
Thank you, we've been waiting for this. I really can't wait to play eldar in rank again. ASM is really strong in the early, even banshee couldn't tie up against them so it's a great move and pred's nerf was necessary since they overperformed well. Maybe this time, we will see more prism, spectre and wraithblade around. 30 power for spectre is too much because you have to get 4/5 of them to do the work, thus you won't be having vehicle or walker sooner (perhaps not at all). Vyper and maybe deffkopta need some hug too. Stikkbomb is really hurt, so a nerf on it was necessary. Nobz taunt nerf is a great idea since they're like ''death trap''.