@DmonBlu said:
U guys overdid it AGAIN lul. Dont reduce Diomedes HP like that he is supposed to be a tank. Instead make him slower and hit weaker that will do. Most changes to SM are unreasonable the problem is tacs not ASM they do not need another nerf. The cancer tanks are overpriced now nobody is gonna build them while Big Trakks just roll over everything. Eldar seems fine and dandy though their vehicles can use some love especially the fire prism (seriously they are too overpriced). Oh about the flamer... yeah I know there are a lot of issues with this and I think u guys should add a 0,5 secs charge time for it so bad players can dodge them easier because most ppl aint koreans they cant predict or react very fast especially the warhammer community. Ork can use some late game nerf to big trakk though most games dont go this late (I know they are supposed to be good late game but ....this good? This is IMBA lul). Anyways great patch:))
Actually, the Eldar vehicle that needs the most attention right now, is the Vyper.
I agree with Diomedes health nerf being too much. I know they want to make him a 3 pointer, but he 500 hp less is way too much.
When we finally get around to looking at doctrines I want everyone to think about something.
Doctrine X or doctrine Y does this enhance gameplay or is compensating for weakness.
Just a look at eldar doctrines and most of them are compensating for weaknesses. Wraithguard dealing normal damage (instead of just dealing true damage), wraithblades get more damage/speed per member dead.. and they die real easy, mostly to lascannons. Because they're a bad unit. Teleport skills, increased speed on shield break, stealth on shield break, increased speed when stealthed, extra shields, holofields, falcon shield bubble... I will hurt my fingers if i keep going.
Almost none of our doctrines are useful or fun they're just there to plug holes in the sinking ship that is the eldar..
@MrBenis said:
When we finally get around to looking at doctrines I want everyone to think about something.
Doctrine X or doctrine Y does this enhance gameplay or is compensating for weakness.
Just a look at eldar doctrines and most of them are compensating for weaknesses. Wraithguard dealing normal damage (instead of just dealing true damage), wraithblades get more damage/speed per member dead.. and they die real easy, mostly to lascannons. Because they're a bad unit. Teleport skills, increased speed on shield break, stealth on shield break, increased speed when stealthed, extra shields, holofields, falcon shield bubble... I will hurt my fingers if i keep going.
Almost none of our doctrines are useful or fun they're just there to plug holes in the sinking ship that is the eldar..
Now, if only DAs get their shield doctrine to +15%, from their +10% currently...
@Guziol said:
Great stuff. But please tell me you are aware that diomedes has no true damage bonus on zeal as he is supposed to if you are looking at him.
Was this found in the game files? I honestly don't know if I would be able to tell if it's working or not in game.
On another note, someone call @Cataclaw@Cataclawy (two names?) and tell him to get back on the Eldar saddle.
If anything, ASM weren't nerfed enough - they are an extremely efficient unit with very high utility, fulfilling a lot of roles.
And Killteam are not better than Jonah (or Diomedes) - please stop spreading false info. It's possible that some Elites do better in some situations than others, ya?
Region Lock should be looked at to help out the Asianic countries too @Kat_RE . I feel so bad for those guys since the playerbase is probably a lot smaller there.
Getting so frustrated with scrubs shitting on my parade when I play eldar. After 100 hours I think I've had enough. I am sick to death of having no way to attack a heavy cover with devastators in it because the AOE ANNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDD slow effect that they have hurts banshees on the way in.
I'm just sick of how shitty and ill thought out eldar are, it's like their design mantra was changed almost overnight near the end of internal beta testing which is why we get this race which nominally was meant to be speedy and hit and run which cannot attack fortified positions until tier 2, it cannot hurt enemy vehicles without wraithguard or vyper spam, it cannot hurt heavy infantry because our only anti tank units are hot garbage that you don't build unless you're desperate, our late game units are the worst in the game and our cheaper heroes like scorpions and ronahn are just bad. Scorpions got overnerfed and ronahn just straight up is not a good hero. I can't figure out a use for this hero, what does he do? Could you not give him a mark ability so that targets take extra damage or something? He's just completely useless with a ROF so low I think maybe fireprism shoots more often??
I'm just so tired and burnt out from being cheesed by non-stop drop pod/banner/deathstorm/ASM jump/blind grenade spam I can't take it any more. I can't accept that all of our viability is locked behind time sinks and upgrades meanwhile other races get handed it for free either via scrap or built in at the door.
I honestly could not recommend this game to anyone I know and this is after playing 100 hours. I played some supreme commander last night and actually had fun with an RTS and it was so amazing because after playing dow3 I had forgot what that felt like.
Jesus christ where are the modding tools so we can edit our own unit stats and deal with this ++heresy redacted++.
@MrBenis Thanks for that wall of rage. Maybe you should have taken a second to breathe before posting so you could contribute something useful to the thread?
No one is forcing you to play Eldar right now and their upcoming buffs look promising. Clearly Relic understands their changes went too far.
@Wardemon said:
I really appreciate you guys hard work on this game and taking very clear steps to improve on every front.
The thing that pops out at me the most while looking at these proposed changes is the change to Diomedes. While I do agree with trying to bring his point cost down since he can't really compete with the chance to get angelos for 4 pts most times. I feel a lot of concern with having to lower his health while not adding anything to make him more usable. I understand that lowering his point cost and keeping his health the same might be too much (When I play with Diomedes he feels so vulnerable but when I play AGAINST him he feels suuper tanky) but at the same time he has one job to do and it feels hard to get him to use his one ability effectively so now I predict he will be a little more likely to be taken earlier for a lower point cost but will be even less effective at doing his one niche job than he was before. It really feels like he may need another ability to fall back on to make him more well rounded but I haven't come up with what yet.
I've had my friends speculate that the most effective use of Diomedes is as either a shock troop, along with a small group of Assault marines, to take early objectives. This is completely outside of his ability though as shock troops need to be fast, above all else. (The #1 reason that Tactical Marines had their Tireless doctrine nerfed in the first place is because they became an incontestable shock troop). Diomedes' greatest weakness is that he is utterly useless against Ranged Units. He can't reasonably be drop podded into the middle of most fights, and he is so slow that any ranged units can kite him indefinitely. This sort of relegates Diomedes to a very counter intuitive backline role, where he can only defend your ranged units from melee charges.
A good secondary ability would be for a temporary movespeed increase. Maybe even go so far as to make it a short channel that can effect those immediately around him as well. Consider it a very minor WAAAGH effect. This would give diomedes another useful supporting tool which would allow Assault Marines to rapidly close the gap on enemies. This is somewhat more valid now since Assault Marines have an incredibly expensive REQ cost in the early game and that they're being considered for a Movespeed / Charge Speed nerf. Diomedes could become a choice for players to offset these downsides and bring an effective strategy for early game aggression players.
If there's one thing I'd request, is better transparency and "knowledge tools" through the UI and tooltips. There are many abilities in the game where you don't know how much damage it does. You wouldn't know that Armor Piercing damage only does 40% damage against normal armor unless you went out of your way to look it up. May want to consider simplifying this or doing what Starcraft 2 did, where they tied damage to descriptors on units (ie a unit may have 20 base damage, but 40 against armored).
There are also virtually no duration numbers. Not to mention that the DPS indicator without the damage per shot alongside it, is misleading. A unit may do high damage on fewer targets with a low rate of fire (thus killing models more often), or a unit may do sustained damage over time (same amount of damage spread over more models) and both would have the same DPS.
While we're on the subject, I would also support a visual indicator or countdown until the next escalation phase, since that system is poorly explained to new players. Having a meter or timer would point more attention to it, and with a good tooltip would help bring people up to speed.
TL;DR - Give us more raw numbers for durations, timers, damage, etc. This will help everyone understand the relative power of various effects more easily, and not feel in the dark about how the game functions.
Another idea for better tools to help players: maybe have a hotkey or togglable mode for showing ranges for attacks/abilities/effects? For some effects (like the damage buff aura of Macha's spear) its hard to tell how large of an area it is effecting.
@RedDevilCG said: @McKendry2 when you activate Diomedes Q, he does get a movespeed increase.
Yes, but at the noticeable loss of your only ability, which SHOULD be used to properly enable Diomede's healing passive. Diomedes should not have EVERYTHING loaded into a single active ability. Break up the Movespeed and the remainder of his Ability into 2 separate abilities so that you don't have to lose out on Combat efficiency just so that you can get in range.
Whoa @MrBenis calm down - I play Eldar too and they arent THAT bad... I've managed to get creative with them to good success. Yes, they are a bit weaker in the early game but that is being addressed with this and maybe future patches.
@vindicarex said:
Whoa @MrBenis calm down - I play Eldar too and they arent THAT bad... I've managed to get creative with them to good success. Yes, they are a bit weaker in the early game but that is being addressed with this and maybe future patches.
Now, if the only give Fire Dragons and Swooping Hawks...
this is really good to tell us about upcoming changes and take our initial feedback
these are my thoughts on these changes:
1-increasing Listening post cost is good
2-dont increase Shadow Spectres move speed(or +0.5 is enough).they already have move speed doctorine and u r going to decrease power cost.they will become so annoying imo
3-Assault Marines are still strong so nerfing them is ok
4-500 hp reduction for Diomedes is too much i think
@vindicarex said:
Whoa @MrBenis calm down - I play Eldar too and they arent THAT bad... I've managed to get creative with them to good success. Yes, they are a bit weaker in the early game but that is being addressed with this and maybe future patches.
Weak in the Early game, and weak in the late game aswell. Killa Kans out-trade anything the Eldar can muster at a safe distance with true damage big rokkit (Doctrinal) and are extremelly cheap. You get close to them? They evaporate whatever is first sent towards them. And hell, even their auto-attacks are true damage. They will get their auto-attacks off and then run back before the Wraithguards can finish their fire animation, and if they do pop off at the last second, the projectile is so slow that the Killa Kans will out-run it easily and the price after Escalation Phase 3 for a Killa Kan is just even more detrimental. Predator Destructors just ++heresy redacted++ on everything, especially with a wall of Machine Gun + Machine Gun AT teams and just a single Whirlwind can counter Wraithguards and Wraithblades (Knocking them around, hurray) and even more effective because most 1v1 maps are extremely tight so the Whirlwind AoE cannot be dodged, late game is extremely obnoxious for Eldar in both match ups.
(Talking from the perspective of this patch of course)
@vindicarex said:
Whoa @MrBenis calm down - I play Eldar too and they arent THAT bad... I've managed to get creative with them to good success. Yes, they are a bit weaker in the early game but that is being addressed with this and maybe future patches.
I'm DONE bro, I'm done. The more I think about it the more I hate this game. How do you botch balance so bad that someone can just spam literally the cheapest unit in the game (that's not a builder) and get to rank 1 in multiple game modes. How does someone figure that free drop pods and orbital deliveries for vehicles and free shields and knockbacks everywhere was gonna be ok.
Mate the game is not fine. 94.9% of the player base has quit. They have rejected it. I see the complaints constantly they decry DOW3 as trash because its shallow and full of cheap gimmick mechanics that don't stand up to scrutiny.
Why is there even heavy cover in this game? I just don't understand how this thing made it past QA/QC it's like noone said hey this combination of units (2 devastators and a builder) sitting in heavy cover might be a little overpowered. Especially when coupled with doctrines that give said devastators extra range, while they AOE CC your units. Have you seen the dominant positions of heavy cover on some maps? If I'm bottom lane on solarians gate and the other guy caps out the heavy cover by the grace of the gods a second before I get there I essentially have to abandon the bottom lane because 1. I can't take the position on my own, 2. Invariably the mid will go bottom and push on to my shield generator. So if I stay bottom then I either get steamrolled or blocked from ever leaving. Especially obnoxious when fighting an ork player at bottom because once a loota is inside that shield it's game over.
They gave us more range on dire avengers because they think THAT was the focal node of them being OP in the launch client, not the combination of teleporting webways t1 and scorpions and the extra hps they used to have all combined. I don't want more range on DA... I want FOTM so I actually get some use out of this cooldown mechanic you have stupidly crippled us with. Because having to stop to shoot means I'm guaranteed to get jumped on, if my units can't shoot while running away then what's the problem, I'd like to be able to move and dodge nades/ASM jumps while applying some damage instead of eating ++heresy redacted++ for the whole fight waiting for an opening to throw my own nades and shoot something. It's not even like DA are cheap, not when compared with more useful units like boyz or especially scouts (whose damage is bad but stunlocked enemies cannot run or shoot back so whether your damage is bad or not is totally irrelevant).
I just want modding tools so I can modify unit stats in to something I think is more acceptable. Do people not say that elite mod for dow2 was the only way to play?
@McKendry2 said:
I've had my friends speculate that the most effective use of Diomedes is as either a shock troop, along with a small group of Assault marines, to take early objectives. This is completely outside of his ability though as shock troops need to be fast, above all else. (The #1 reason that Tactical Marines had their Tireless doctrine nerfed in the first place is because they became an incontestable shock troop). Diomedes' greatest weakness is that he is utterly useless against Ranged Units. He can't reasonably be drop podded into the middle of most fights, and he is so slow that any ranged units can kite him indefinitely. This sort of relegates Diomedes to a very counter intuitive backline role, where he can only defend your ranged units from melee charges.
A good secondary ability would be for a temporary movespeed increase. Maybe even go so far as to make it a short channel that can effect those immediately around him as well. Consider it a very minor WAAAGH effect. This would give diomedes another useful supporting tool which would allow Assault Marines to rapidly close the gap on enemies. This is somewhat more valid now since Assault Marines have an incredibly expensive REQ cost in the early game and that they're being considered for a Movespeed / Charge Speed nerf. Diomedes could become a choice for players to offset these downsides and bring an effective strategy for early game aggression players.
Use your banner to give him a speed increase.. just sayin..
you hadt revert predator destructor changes ... the thing that is broken is not the damage value its the splash range which you increased last patch... i believe they will still be broken with the splash range.. they were fine before and no on cplained untill you changed it
This looks great, I really like the responsiveness from the devs here. Two notes though:
-Shadow Spectres are currently good but underplayed. I suspect the power changes will be an overbuff that will make them quite dominant in certain scenarios, and as they are somewhat frustrating to play against I think this element of the change should not go through. Alternatively, their speed could remain the same - they are not precisely infantry and benefit much more than other squads from a movement increase.
-The Kommando's bomb needs to be looked at. It currently does huge damage even outside the visual range of the ability, leading at times to squad and even army wipes that are both perhaps too powerful and illegible. I suspect the radius should be tuned to match the visual range of the explosion, and things may need more alteration even beyond that.
@Codex_Astartes said:
These changes look good but you should think REALLY long about decreasing shadow spectre power cost to 15
Should they add a power cost to tankbustas and devastators instead? That seems fair to me. How do you rationalise what a unit costs anyway?
The devs say that spectres are under utilised because of reasons, the eldar subforum identifies that they're too slow/squishy/weak to warrent 435rq and 30pw per squad, particularly when the vehicles they're designed to counter are able to kill them easily.
@Kingsley
yeah I agree - they have the potential to be incredibly good but as it stands (and as @MrBenis stated) they are still the only infantry based AV locked behind a power price tag. Now though this seems fair and I can easily see myself picking a squad up in T1....we'll see if they overperform- I can only really see them being a problem in t1.
I'll just say that predator destructor nerf is too much imo.
Ok with cost and pop nerf, but damage nerf from 200 to 150 is too much imo. 175 would be nice imo
PS: and I'm not a SM player
PS2 : and yes, a slight kommando bomb nerf should be added
and I'm an ork player using kommando
Really good changes, even if some of them are kind of reactionary to the most whine. I guess they don't have enough players to go off of actually objective data, which is sad.
But that said, the changes are VERY good. Predator finally toned down sufficiently it seems, the power increases to annihilator are EXCELLENT since that unit was also too cheap for 275 considering it's basically a far better tank than the big trakk in direct engagements.
Overall super good tuning on SM lategame, finally they are falling into place. I can't agree with the ASM nerf though. The problem with ASM was never really the charge. it's the fact that they have dumbfuck amounts of hp endgame, and it gives the SM player a spammable wall of unkillable fodder, that also disrupts, does amazing damage with true swords to everything, and also is very mobile. Their stats are still too good, at least lategame they are imo.
Patch is kinda missing kommando bomb nerf tho.... but maybe relic disagrees with this. I also have this slight fear that eldar early game is getting overbuffed and they will swing right back into faceroll mode early game, but maybe not. At least Kyre was also very properly nerfed. Good stuff
oh yeah and Diomedes change is very smart. Imo he is already a good 4pointer, now at 3points and just a little less health he will be straight up godlike.
How do you figure that eldar are gonna OP on the early game when they get avg 16% speed increase and 14% more range on only dire avengers. I just don't get it. The problem is eldar having to sit still. Ok so you get 5 distance units advantage over SM and shootas now which could let you kite some tiny amount. What's the movement rate anyway? Is it 5 per second? 6 per second? If all you get is 1s grace between being shot at you'd need a ping gifted from heaven itself to not have that advantage erased. I live in aus and a lot of the time I'm playing with 400ms of ping or worse. Whatever the rate of movement is, if an enemy unit can cover it in under a second I'd consider that a very backhanded buff. It might be useful for running away though, for what that's worth, while tacticals with FOTM shoot you in the back lol.
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Demicore
Great stuff!
jonoliveira12
Actually, the Eldar vehicle that needs the most attention right now, is the Vyper.
I agree with Diomedes health nerf being too much. I know they want to make him a 3 pointer, but he 500 hp less is way too much.
MrBenis
When we finally get around to looking at doctrines I want everyone to think about something.
Doctrine X or doctrine Y does this enhance gameplay or is compensating for weakness.
Just a look at eldar doctrines and most of them are compensating for weaknesses. Wraithguard dealing normal damage (instead of just dealing true damage), wraithblades get more damage/speed per member dead.. and they die real easy, mostly to lascannons. Because they're a bad unit. Teleport skills, increased speed on shield break, stealth on shield break, increased speed when stealthed, extra shields, holofields, falcon shield bubble... I will hurt my fingers if i keep going.
Almost none of our doctrines are useful or fun they're just there to plug holes in the sinking ship that is the eldar..
RedDevilCG
@Kat_RE thanks for the communication! Patch looks interesting. May I ask if this will be the patch released in July, or will it be at an earlier date?
jonoliveira12
Now, if only DAs get their shield doctrine to +15%, from their +10% currently...
RedDevilCG
Was this found in the game files? I honestly don't know if I would be able to tell if it's working or not in game.
On another note, someone call @Cataclaw @Cataclawy (two names?) and tell him to get back on the Eldar saddle.
vindicarex
If anything, ASM weren't nerfed enough - they are an extremely efficient unit with very high utility, fulfilling a lot of roles.
And Killteam are not better than Jonah (or Diomedes) - please stop spreading false info. It's possible that some Elites do better in some situations than others, ya?
Region Lock should be looked at to help out the Asianic countries too @Kat_RE . I feel so bad for those guys since the playerbase is probably a lot smaller there.
MrBenis
Getting so frustrated with scrubs shitting on my parade when I play eldar. After 100 hours I think I've had enough. I am sick to death of having no way to attack a heavy cover with devastators in it because the AOE ANNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDD slow effect that they have hurts banshees on the way in.
I'm just sick of how shitty and ill thought out eldar are, it's like their design mantra was changed almost overnight near the end of internal beta testing which is why we get this race which nominally was meant to be speedy and hit and run which cannot attack fortified positions until tier 2, it cannot hurt enemy vehicles without wraithguard or vyper spam, it cannot hurt heavy infantry because our only anti tank units are hot garbage that you don't build unless you're desperate, our late game units are the worst in the game and our cheaper heroes like scorpions and ronahn are just bad. Scorpions got overnerfed and ronahn just straight up is not a good hero. I can't figure out a use for this hero, what does he do? Could you not give him a mark ability so that targets take extra damage or something? He's just completely useless with a ROF so low I think maybe fireprism shoots more often??
I'm just so tired and burnt out from being cheesed by non-stop drop pod/banner/deathstorm/ASM jump/blind grenade spam I can't take it any more. I can't accept that all of our viability is locked behind time sinks and upgrades meanwhile other races get handed it for free either via scrap or built in at the door.
I honestly could not recommend this game to anyone I know and this is after playing 100 hours. I played some supreme commander last night and actually had fun with an RTS and it was so amazing because after playing dow3 I had forgot what that felt like.
Jesus christ where are the modding tools so we can edit our own unit stats and deal with this ++heresy redacted++.
Jelly
@MrBenis Thanks for that wall of rage. Maybe you should have taken a second to breathe before posting so you could contribute something useful to the thread?
No one is forcing you to play Eldar right now and their upcoming buffs look promising. Clearly Relic understands their changes went too far.
McKendry2
I've had my friends speculate that the most effective use of Diomedes is as either a shock troop, along with a small group of Assault marines, to take early objectives. This is completely outside of his ability though as shock troops need to be fast, above all else. (The #1 reason that Tactical Marines had their Tireless doctrine nerfed in the first place is because they became an incontestable shock troop). Diomedes' greatest weakness is that he is utterly useless against Ranged Units. He can't reasonably be drop podded into the middle of most fights, and he is so slow that any ranged units can kite him indefinitely. This sort of relegates Diomedes to a very counter intuitive backline role, where he can only defend your ranged units from melee charges.
A good secondary ability would be for a temporary movespeed increase. Maybe even go so far as to make it a short channel that can effect those immediately around him as well. Consider it a very minor WAAAGH effect. This would give diomedes another useful supporting tool which would allow Assault Marines to rapidly close the gap on enemies. This is somewhat more valid now since Assault Marines have an incredibly expensive REQ cost in the early game and that they're being considered for a Movespeed / Charge Speed nerf. Diomedes could become a choice for players to offset these downsides and bring an effective strategy for early game aggression players.
transplanar
If there's one thing I'd request, is better transparency and "knowledge tools" through the UI and tooltips. There are many abilities in the game where you don't know how much damage it does. You wouldn't know that Armor Piercing damage only does 40% damage against normal armor unless you went out of your way to look it up. May want to consider simplifying this or doing what Starcraft 2 did, where they tied damage to descriptors on units (ie a unit may have 20 base damage, but 40 against armored).
There are also virtually no duration numbers. Not to mention that the DPS indicator without the damage per shot alongside it, is misleading. A unit may do high damage on fewer targets with a low rate of fire (thus killing models more often), or a unit may do sustained damage over time (same amount of damage spread over more models) and both would have the same DPS.
While we're on the subject, I would also support a visual indicator or countdown until the next escalation phase, since that system is poorly explained to new players. Having a meter or timer would point more attention to it, and with a good tooltip would help bring people up to speed.
TL;DR - Give us more raw numbers for durations, timers, damage, etc. This will help everyone understand the relative power of various effects more easily, and not feel in the dark about how the game functions.
RedDevilCG
@McKendry2 when you activate Diomedes Q, he does get a movespeed increase.
transplanar
Another idea for better tools to help players: maybe have a hotkey or togglable mode for showing ranges for attacks/abilities/effects? For some effects (like the damage buff aura of Macha's spear) its hard to tell how large of an area it is effecting.
McKendry2
Yes, but at the noticeable loss of your only ability, which SHOULD be used to properly enable Diomede's healing passive. Diomedes should not have EVERYTHING loaded into a single active ability. Break up the Movespeed and the remainder of his Ability into 2 separate abilities so that you don't have to lose out on Combat efficiency just so that you can get in range.
vindicarex
Whoa @MrBenis calm down - I play Eldar too and they arent THAT bad... I've managed to get creative with them to good success. Yes, they are a bit weaker in the early game but that is being addressed with this and maybe future patches.
jonoliveira12
Now, if the only give Fire Dragons and Swooping Hawks...
aghabozorg
this is really good to tell us about upcoming changes and take our initial feedback
these are my thoughts on these changes:
1-increasing Listening post cost is good
2-dont increase Shadow Spectres move speed(or +0.5 is enough).they already have move speed doctorine and u r going to decrease power cost.they will become so annoying imo
3-Assault Marines are still strong so nerfing them is ok
4-500 hp reduction for Diomedes is too much i think
@vindicarex suggestions rules here
Cataclawy
Weak in the Early game, and weak in the late game aswell. Killa Kans out-trade anything the Eldar can muster at a safe distance with true damage big rokkit (Doctrinal) and are extremelly cheap. You get close to them? They evaporate whatever is first sent towards them. And hell, even their auto-attacks are true damage. They will get their auto-attacks off and then run back before the Wraithguards can finish their fire animation, and if they do pop off at the last second, the projectile is so slow that the Killa Kans will out-run it easily and the price after Escalation Phase 3 for a Killa Kan is just even more detrimental. Predator Destructors just ++heresy redacted++ on everything, especially with a wall of Machine Gun + Machine Gun AT teams and just a single Whirlwind can counter Wraithguards and Wraithblades (Knocking them around, hurray) and even more effective because most 1v1 maps are extremely tight so the Whirlwind AoE cannot be dodged, late game is extremely obnoxious for Eldar in both match ups.
(Talking from the perspective of this patch of course)
MrBenis
I'm DONE bro, I'm done. The more I think about it the more I hate this game. How do you botch balance so bad that someone can just spam literally the cheapest unit in the game (that's not a builder) and get to rank 1 in multiple game modes. How does someone figure that free drop pods and orbital deliveries for vehicles and free shields and knockbacks everywhere was gonna be ok.
Mate the game is not fine. 94.9% of the player base has quit. They have rejected it. I see the complaints constantly they decry DOW3 as trash because its shallow and full of cheap gimmick mechanics that don't stand up to scrutiny.
Why is there even heavy cover in this game? I just don't understand how this thing made it past QA/QC it's like noone said hey this combination of units (2 devastators and a builder) sitting in heavy cover might be a little overpowered. Especially when coupled with doctrines that give said devastators extra range, while they AOE CC your units. Have you seen the dominant positions of heavy cover on some maps? If I'm bottom lane on solarians gate and the other guy caps out the heavy cover by the grace of the gods a second before I get there I essentially have to abandon the bottom lane because 1. I can't take the position on my own, 2. Invariably the mid will go bottom and push on to my shield generator. So if I stay bottom then I either get steamrolled or blocked from ever leaving. Especially obnoxious when fighting an ork player at bottom because once a loota is inside that shield it's game over.
They gave us more range on dire avengers because they think THAT was the focal node of them being OP in the launch client, not the combination of teleporting webways t1 and scorpions and the extra hps they used to have all combined. I don't want more range on DA... I want FOTM so I actually get some use out of this cooldown mechanic you have stupidly crippled us with. Because having to stop to shoot means I'm guaranteed to get jumped on, if my units can't shoot while running away then what's the problem, I'd like to be able to move and dodge nades/ASM jumps while applying some damage instead of eating ++heresy redacted++ for the whole fight waiting for an opening to throw my own nades and shoot something. It's not even like DA are cheap, not when compared with more useful units like boyz or especially scouts (whose damage is bad but stunlocked enemies cannot run or shoot back so whether your damage is bad or not is totally irrelevant).
I just want modding tools so I can modify unit stats in to something I think is more acceptable. Do people not say that elite mod for dow2 was the only way to play?
aghabozorg
and guys pay attention to ((Please note: these balance notes are subject to change)) and tell your opinion about these changes
MrBenis
Use your banner to give him a speed increase.. just sayin..
Codex_Astartes
These changes look good but you should think REALLY long about decreasing shadow spectre power cost to 15
MaxwellsDaemon
@Kat_RE
I'm about to go to work so I'll be brief.
A great set of notes and fantastic we've been given them ahead of time.
I agree with the scale of them - several gentle buffs to Eldar.
Wise not to change base stats too much if you are changing something overarching such as move speed.
Kyre nerf is fantastic. It will mean he Has to rely on his army to achieve what he could do by himself before.
Will be interested most about the spectre and wraithblade changes. They were subtle but may tip them into viability.
Skemooo
you hadt revert predator destructor changes ... the thing that is broken is not the damage value its the splash range which you increased last patch... i believe they will still be broken with the splash range.. they were fine before and no on cplained untill you changed it
Kingsley
This looks great, I really like the responsiveness from the devs here. Two notes though:
-Shadow Spectres are currently good but underplayed. I suspect the power changes will be an overbuff that will make them quite dominant in certain scenarios, and as they are somewhat frustrating to play against I think this element of the change should not go through. Alternatively, their speed could remain the same - they are not precisely infantry and benefit much more than other squads from a movement increase.
-The Kommando's bomb needs to be looked at. It currently does huge damage even outside the visual range of the ability, leading at times to squad and even army wipes that are both perhaps too powerful and illegible. I suspect the radius should be tuned to match the visual range of the explosion, and things may need more alteration even beyond that.
Looking forward to the patch!
MrBenis
Should they add a power cost to tankbustas and devastators instead? That seems fair to me. How do you rationalise what a unit costs anyway?
The devs say that spectres are under utilised because of reasons, the eldar subforum identifies that they're too slow/squishy/weak to warrent 435rq and 30pw per squad, particularly when the vehicles they're designed to counter are able to kill them easily.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Kingsley
yeah I agree - they have the potential to be incredibly good but as it stands (and as @MrBenis stated) they are still the only infantry based AV locked behind a power price tag. Now though this seems fair and I can easily see myself picking a squad up in T1....we'll see if they overperform- I can only really see them being a problem in t1.
GuruSkippy
Seems great overall !
I'll just say that predator destructor nerf is too much imo.
Ok with cost and pop nerf, but damage nerf from 200 to 150 is too much imo. 175 would be nice imo
PS: and I'm not a SM player
PS2 : and yes, a slight kommando bomb nerf should be added
and I'm an ork player using kommando
Northanui
Really good changes, even if some of them are kind of reactionary to the most whine. I guess they don't have enough players to go off of actually objective data, which is sad.
But that said, the changes are VERY good. Predator finally toned down sufficiently it seems, the power increases to annihilator are EXCELLENT since that unit was also too cheap for 275 considering it's basically a far better tank than the big trakk in direct engagements.
Overall super good tuning on SM lategame, finally they are falling into place. I can't agree with the ASM nerf though. The problem with ASM was never really the charge. it's the fact that they have dumbfuck amounts of hp endgame, and it gives the SM player a spammable wall of unkillable fodder, that also disrupts, does amazing damage with true swords to everything, and also is very mobile. Their stats are still too good, at least lategame they are imo.
Patch is kinda missing kommando bomb nerf tho.... but maybe relic disagrees with this. I also have this slight fear that eldar early game is getting overbuffed and they will swing right back into faceroll mode early game, but maybe not. At least Kyre was also very properly nerfed. Good stuff
oh yeah and Diomedes change is very smart. Imo he is already a good 4pointer, now at 3points and just a little less health he will be straight up godlike.
MrBenis
How do you figure that eldar are gonna OP on the early game when they get avg 16% speed increase and 14% more range on only dire avengers. I just don't get it. The problem is eldar having to sit still. Ok so you get 5 distance units advantage over SM and shootas now which could let you kite some tiny amount. What's the movement rate anyway? Is it 5 per second? 6 per second? If all you get is 1s grace between being shot at you'd need a ping gifted from heaven itself to not have that advantage erased. I live in aus and a lot of the time I'm playing with 400ms of ping or worse. Whatever the rate of movement is, if an enemy unit can cover it in under a second I'd consider that a very backhanded buff. It might be useful for running away though, for what that's worth, while tacticals with FOTM shoot you in the back lol.