@jonoliveira12 said:
With extra range and speed, overheating feels justifiable.
Is it?
I really don't think so
I play Eldar almost exclusively, and in my opinion, it does.
Not saying you are either wrong or right, but the overheating mechanic, combined with extra range, makes DAs more of a burst skirmisher unit type, that plays more to what they actually are supposed to be in the Lore.
You are not supposed to stay in a prolonged firefight as Eldar, you are supposed to cripple your enemies before they can either take the point, or catch up to you, so I find the overheating mechanic to be quite fitting.
It looks like a good change to Eldar but the DA, Banshees, Dark Reapers and Rangers deserve some observation. The DA would improve if the weapons wouldn't heating up system would be reduced or removed, due to the little usage of the DA is T2 or T3. The Banshees compared to the Nobz and ASM are very squishy, maybe a small percentage of health boost or shield, or increase the damage a bit more, another thing that could be implemented is give them true damage like ASM in the arsenal. The Dark Reapers are the slowest heavy weaponry in fire rate compared to the SM and Orks, a speed boost to the fire rate would help them increase their dps. The rangers are simple a bit more damage and reduce the cost.
For the elites, I would recommend buffing Macha's auto attack either the range or melee, making range true damage or increasing the base damage output while reducing the melee damage, Macha is more suited long range than in melee combat.
Sometimes flamers cannot be tied-up in melee ? Is this a bug or purposeful design ?
It is the most infuriating thing to have one player literally do no micro at all (the flamer standing still) while the other player frantically micros unit to counter the flamers while they all get burnt down as the flamers just dont go into melee. Considering how fast flamers kill an army , how is this considered fair ? Please enlighten me.
Kyre is nerfed but the Whirl Wind still stands.... Sure he can come in a little earlier but he is an elite but the WW can do 10x's the dmg at almost zero risk to the unit. Kyre isn't easily used and punishes clumping of units. I feel (by the reading) the patch misses the spot but time will tell. WG aren't bad, just most people don't know how to play them. Perhaps an anti-stun ability on their charge would be better as this is very common and makes them difficult to get them where they are going. Imo too many units cause stun/knockdown.
Whirwind should get 25%-50% damage reduction. You can beat the Sm back, they pop one whirlwind and half the infantry is gone in 3 secs ? What was all that work for ?
It should have a SUPPORTIVE role not an ANNILHATE role.
@Player_22 said:
Whirwind should get 25%-50% damage reduction. You can beat the Sm back, they pop one whirlwind and half the infantry is gone in 3 secs ? What was all that work for ?
It should have a SUPPORTIVE role not an ANNILHATE role.
Whirlwind and Deathstorms are just petty punishing mechanics, that SM abuses when winning, and drops down as little revenges when losing.
@houndtide said:
Kyre is nerfed but the Whirl Wind still stands.... Sure he can come in a little earlier but he is an elite but the WW can do 10x's the dmg at almost zero risk to the unit. Kyre isn't easily used and punishes clumping of units. I feel (by the reading) the patch misses the spot but time will tell. WG aren't bad, just most people don't know how to play them. Perhaps an anti-stun ability on their charge would be better as this is very common and makes them difficult to get them where they are going. Imo too many units cause stun/knockdown.
Kyre was just the Eldar version of the SM Orbital Bombardment, he takes complete control of the enemy army, and nukes it down while the other guy watches helplessly. SM players shouldn't complain so much, as they pretty much have almost infinite CC always available.
@houndtide said:
Kyre is nerfed but the Whirl Wind still stands.... Sure he can come in a little earlier but he is an elite but the WW can do 10x's the dmg at almost zero risk to the unit. Kyre isn't easily used and punishes clumping of units. I feel (by the reading) the patch misses the spot but time will tell. WG aren't bad, just most people don't know how to play them. Perhaps an anti-stun ability on their charge would be better as this is very common and makes them difficult to get them where they are going. Imo too many units cause stun/knockdown.
Kyre was just the Eldar version of the SM Orbital Bombardment, he takes complete control of the enemy army, and nukes it down while the other guy watches helplessly. SM players shouldn't complain so much, as they pretty much have almost infinite CC always available.
A good SM player knows how to counter Kyre's ability making him absolutely useless (frustrating especially because that's all he is good for, though he has good dmg and good melee he is too vulnerable).
@houndtide said:
Kyre is nerfed but the Whirl Wind still stands.... Sure he can come in a little earlier but he is an elite but the WW can do 10x's the dmg at almost zero risk to the unit. Kyre isn't easily used and punishes clumping of units. I feel (by the reading) the patch misses the spot but time will tell. WG aren't bad, just most people don't know how to play them. Perhaps an anti-stun ability on their charge would be better as this is very common and makes them difficult to get them where they are going. Imo too many units cause stun/knockdown.
Kyre was just the Eldar version of the SM Orbital Bombardment, he takes complete control of the enemy army, and nukes it down while the other guy watches helplessly. SM players shouldn't complain so much, as they pretty much have almost infinite CC always available.
A good SM player knows how to counter Kyre's ability making him absolutely useless (frustrating especially because that's all he is good for, though he has good dmg and good melee he is too vulnerable).
True, but they still complain because he stops A-moves.
About SM banner, the thing that annoys me the most, is if I decap the banner, I must stay in range of it, becaiuse if I move out, IT RECAP BY ITSELF !!!
I hate that..
I'd love SM players to have to recap with a real unit, not an autocap.
@Player_22 said:
Whirwind should get 25%-50% damage reduction. You can beat the Sm back, they pop one whirlwind and half the infantry is gone in 3 secs ? What was all that work for ?
It should have a SUPPORTIVE role not an ANNILHATE role.
Hero role is Destroyer....
He and his abilities are fully intended to annihilate, not support.
@Don_Zauser said:
I also encourage Relic to take into consideration SM banner cooldown on start, and moving drop pod to Tier2 / or add an energy cost (25)
@Kat_RE
I haven't read the whole thread, but there is some concerns about shadow specters becoming the new backdoor unit with basic speed buff + kyre's command doctrine.
Yeah this is certainly what I'm going to be looking to do when the patch hits.
I agree with Skippy here.
Would it be possible to have a pre-emptive hotfix lined up if this does prove to be a problem?
....may not be a problem though- they still die fast to any focus fire from t1 infantry so you can't invest too heavily in them without crippling your t1 fighting power..
...arguably for every spectre an Eldar player buys you can build a tac squad for less or a devastator squad (roughly equal price) to stick on a point.
One Dev should be able to hold against almost any number of spectres.
I like upcoming changes. Still if Relic find why Taldeer sometime get deathfreeze after jump(not 100% sure) sometimes it' will be great.
Make Eldar storm more usefull will be nice too - it's just nothing compared to orbital strike and boulder.
We know this guy is too powerful, so we’re looking to address the counterplay and the way units are clustering so that his combo is a bit harder to land and not quite as devastating without support.
We can explore further changes such as capping the number of units he can pull with Eldritch Winds. Interestingly, we noticed that Kyre does not have a melee charge, but we’d like to re-evaluate Kyre when we were we he lands after these changes.
After units are pulled to him, they are now knocked back, scattering them over a 15m area and preventing them from clumping on top of one another when landing
Reduced speed of Eldritch Winds projectile from 15 to 12
I love and main Eldar but it was about time that this guy got some nerfs. The knockback on drop is a very nice idea and will reduce his absolutely insane killing/wiping potential. I am however doubting the speed-nerf on the Eldritch Winds. He is not the tankiest Elite and he needs some time to properly set them up so nerfing them might be overkill.
Shadow Spectres
These units have a very low build rate, which isn’t ideal for a unit that’s supposed to function as anti-vehicle. We think that the combination of the Eldar speed increase, a Power cost reduction and increased formation size should make them less susceptible to area of effect damage. This, in turn, will make them more viable.
Power reduced from 30 to 15
Increased formation size
I have to very much disagree with your assessment of Spectres. They are getting built in almost every game vs Orks and whenever neccessary vs SM. The power reduction is not warranted at all. The formation size will help their survivability as they really suffer a lot from aoe dmg.
If you half (!!!) their power cost, Spectre-rushes are a very real scenario. Keep in mind their weapon range when rebalancing this unit.
Orks
Nobz
Nobz are a really useful unit and we don’t want to do anything too drastic, but we do feel that their Taunt range makes it too easy to land on too many units.
Taunt radius reduced from 20 to 15
So much yes!!!! The radius was too big.
Shoota Boyz
Shoota Boyz are a lot more viable now and while Stikkbombs are intended to deal more damage than other grenades, we want to reduce it a bit.
Stikkbomb damage decreased from 90 to 60
Tonz ‘o Bombz: Stikkbomb damage decreased from 90 to 60
Yep, there was no justification for them to ever deal that much damage. Brings it more into line with the other units' grenades.
A note on doctrines
We’re aware that there are doctrines for each faction that are dominant and others that are not. We’ll be addressing this with slight nerfs, but mostly buffs. This will take longer because we have to consider and test how much these changes can act as a multiplier for overperforming units. This may occur over several patch cycles, but rest assured that we’re keeping a close eye on them!
Please no!! Buffing the other doctrines to bring them more into line with the already strong doctrines is power creep that this game does not need already. Just tone down what needs nerfing and ever so slightly buff what needs buffs.
On another note: @Kat_RE Could you please make sure that when you make changes to the initial post, that you keep the old information and highlight the new changes, so we can follow the progress of the preliminary changes? Makes it easier for everyone to view the progress of this discussion.
Yeah this is certainly what I'm going to be looking to do when the patch hits.
I agree with Skippy here.
Would it be possible to have a pre-emptive hotfix lined up if this does prove to be a problem?
....may not be a problem though- they still die fast to any focus fire from t1 infantry so you can't invest too heavily in them without crippling your t1 fighting power..
...arguably for every spectre an Eldar player buys you can build a tac squad for less or a devastator squad (roughly equal price) to stick on a point.
One Dev should be able to hold against almost any number of spectres.
Wouldn't pre-emptive hotfix be a leaving loota/dev/reaper squad in the bubble instead of worker?
Yeah, that's what I'd suggest as the recommended counter play. If that plays out as completely fine then that's good- no need for a hotfix. If not then it would be good not to have a month of people complaining and outside of the possible doctrine changes it's the only thing that looks potentially abusable to me atm.
@Technique - I think given shadow spectres are worthless against 90% of t1 units I doubt they're going to be as bad as ASM. Rough cost for cost 3 (cheaper) tacs ought to deter 3 specs from hanging around the generator.
The worry is more things like infrastructure sniping of armouries and barracks especially on maps like Khomets pass where they can slip over the impassable terrain/ cliffs past the turret.... potentially either forcing a lengthy force reposition or excessively defensive deployment.
Ofc if they are given the chance to have some time with the generator it will drop fast but an equal cost t1 force should win the engagement. This wasn't really the case with powersowrd ASM, which could trash t1 infantry equally as well as the generator.
Anyway we'll see no point excessively theory crafting.
Ofc if they are given the chance to have some time with the generator it will drop fast but an equal cost t1 force should win the engagement. This wasn't really the case with powersowrd ASM, which could trash t1 infantry equally as well as the generator.
True damage is against HEAVY armor and vehicles/structures. To the t1 forces power swords deal the same dmg as the chain swords. If sm goes into swords instead of vehicles or antivehicle, the first falcon will beat them and it'll be gg.
Because I am batman(c)
I still hope relics won't do mad things and will not implemet all the cryings of poor only eldar players.
Orcs are much stronger than sm and you said nothing agains them except taunt.
Seems like personal revenge to sm.
Katitof has just disliked the true info about the mechanics of true damage) That is all what you, Relics, must know about these eldar players and their demands.
Menu
Comments
Fww
Is it?
I really don't think so
jonoliveira12
I play Eldar almost exclusively, and in my opinion, it does.
Not saying you are either wrong or right, but the overheating mechanic, combined with extra range, makes DAs more of a burst skirmisher unit type, that plays more to what they actually are supposed to be in the Lore.
You are not supposed to stay in a prolonged firefight as Eldar, you are supposed to cripple your enemies before they can either take the point, or catch up to you, so I find the overheating mechanic to be quite fitting.
PaperBaG
Yea it's also really hard to push objectives like the shield gen mid game when that t2 banner knocks everything around
miumiu_
No one is playing ORK you don't feel it
thezainking
It looks like a good change to Eldar but the DA, Banshees, Dark Reapers and Rangers deserve some observation. The DA would improve if the weapons wouldn't heating up system would be reduced or removed, due to the little usage of the DA is T2 or T3. The Banshees compared to the Nobz and ASM are very squishy, maybe a small percentage of health boost or shield, or increase the damage a bit more, another thing that could be implemented is give them true damage like ASM in the arsenal. The Dark Reapers are the slowest heavy weaponry in fire rate compared to the SM and Orks, a speed boost to the fire rate would help them increase their dps. The rangers are simple a bit more damage and reduce the cost.
For the elites, I would recommend buffing Macha's auto attack either the range or melee, making range true damage or increasing the base damage output while reducing the melee damage, Macha is more suited long range than in melee combat.
Player_22
Sometimes flamers cannot be tied-up in melee ? Is this a bug or purposeful design ?
It is the most infuriating thing to have one player literally do no micro at all (the flamer standing still) while the other player frantically micros unit to counter the flamers while they all get burnt down as the flamers just dont go into melee. Considering how fast flamers kill an army , how is this considered fair ? Please enlighten me.
houndtide
Kyre is nerfed but the Whirl Wind still stands.... Sure he can come in a little earlier but he is an elite but the WW can do 10x's the dmg at almost zero risk to the unit. Kyre isn't easily used and punishes clumping of units. I feel (by the reading) the patch misses the spot but time will tell. WG aren't bad, just most people don't know how to play them. Perhaps an anti-stun ability on their charge would be better as this is very common and makes them difficult to get them where they are going. Imo too many units cause stun/knockdown.
Player_22
Whirwind should get 25%-50% damage reduction. You can beat the Sm back, they pop one whirlwind and half the infantry is gone in 3 secs ? What was all that work for ?
It should have a SUPPORTIVE role not an ANNILHATE role.
jonoliveira12
Whirlwind and Deathstorms are just petty punishing mechanics, that SM abuses when winning, and drops down as little revenges when losing.
jonoliveira12
Kyre was just the Eldar version of the SM Orbital Bombardment, he takes complete control of the enemy army, and nukes it down while the other guy watches helplessly. SM players shouldn't complain so much, as they pretty much have almost infinite CC always available.
houndtide
A good SM player knows how to counter Kyre's ability making him absolutely useless (frustrating especially because that's all he is good for, though he has good dmg and good melee he is too vulnerable).
jonoliveira12
True, but they still complain because he stops A-moves.
Murador
Did they give any information when the patch will go live?
Hopefully a few days before the big tournament!
GuruSkippy
About SM banner, the thing that annoys me the most, is if I decap the banner, I must stay in range of it, becaiuse if I move out, IT RECAP BY ITSELF !!!
I hate that..
I'd love SM players to have to recap with a real unit, not an autocap.
Katitof
Hero role is Destroyer....
He and his abilities are fully intended to annihilate, not support.
Don_Zauser
wow. Constructive comment. Moderators?
GuruSkippy
@Kat_RE
I haven't read the whole thread, but there is some concerns about shadow specters becoming the new backdoor unit with basic speed buff + kyre's command doctrine.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Kat_RE
@GuruSkippy
Yeah this is certainly what I'm going to be looking to do when the patch hits.
I agree with Skippy here.
Would it be possible to have a pre-emptive hotfix lined up if this does prove to be a problem?
....may not be a problem though- they still die fast to any focus fire from t1 infantry so you can't invest too heavily in them without crippling your t1 fighting power..
...arguably for every spectre an Eldar player buys you can build a tac squad for less or a devastator squad (roughly equal price) to stick on a point.
One Dev should be able to hold against almost any number of spectres.
GuruSkippy
Yeah, maybe it will be fine, it's just a concern right now.
Northanui
i dont want to eat my words, but i think this will be the best balance patch yet.
Eldar viable, eldar endgame buffed, ork early game annoying stuff nerfed, SM op endgame nerfed.
Lategame fights will now be a lot more balanced in general, across all 3 races. That's at least what I think.
Lepreconum
I like upcoming changes. Still if Relic find why Taldeer sometime get deathfreeze after jump(not 100% sure) sometimes it' will be great.
Make Eldar storm more usefull will be nice too - it's just nothing compared to orbital strike and boulder.
Adeptus_Noobus
I love and main Eldar but it was about time that this guy got some nerfs. The knockback on drop is a very nice idea and will reduce his absolutely insane killing/wiping potential. I am however doubting the speed-nerf on the Eldritch Winds. He is not the tankiest Elite and he needs some time to properly set them up so nerfing them might be overkill.
I have to very much disagree with your assessment of Spectres. They are getting built in almost every game vs Orks and whenever neccessary vs SM. The power reduction is not warranted at all. The formation size will help their survivability as they really suffer a lot from aoe dmg.
If you half (!!!) their power cost, Spectre-rushes are a very real scenario. Keep in mind their weapon range when rebalancing this unit.
So much yes!!!! The radius was too big.
Yep, there was no justification for them to ever deal that much damage. Brings it more into line with the other units' grenades.
Please no!! Buffing the other doctrines to bring them more into line with the already strong doctrines is power creep that this game does not need already. Just tone down what needs nerfing and ever so slightly buff what needs buffs.
On another note: @Kat_RE Could you please make sure that when you make changes to the initial post, that you keep the old information and highlight the new changes, so we can follow the progress of the preliminary changes? Makes it easier for everyone to view the progress of this discussion.
Katitof
Wouldn't pre-emptive hotfix be a leaving loota/dev/reaper squad in the bubble instead of worker?
Technique
Shadow Spectres will be the new asm - only better.
Sniping those shield gens from the first minutes of the game. :P
Katitof
So you will just walk over his gens.
Specters aren't good for anything else then gen bash in T1.
MaxwellsDaemon
@Katitof
Yeah, that's what I'd suggest as the recommended counter play. If that plays out as completely fine then that's good- no need for a hotfix. If not then it would be good not to have a month of people complaining and outside of the possible doctrine changes it's the only thing that looks potentially abusable to me atm.
@Technique - I think given shadow spectres are worthless against 90% of t1 units I doubt they're going to be as bad as ASM. Rough cost for cost 3 (cheaper) tacs ought to deter 3 specs from hanging around the generator.
The worry is more things like infrastructure sniping of armouries and barracks especially on maps like Khomets pass where they can slip over the impassable terrain/ cliffs past the turret.... potentially either forcing a lengthy force reposition or excessively defensive deployment.
Ofc if they are given the chance to have some time with the generator it will drop fast but an equal cost t1 force should win the engagement. This wasn't really the case with powersowrd ASM, which could trash t1 infantry equally as well as the generator.
Anyway we'll see
no point excessively theory crafting.
Diogen84
True damage is against HEAVY armor and vehicles/structures. To the t1 forces power swords deal the same dmg as the chain swords. If sm goes into swords instead of vehicles or antivehicle, the first falcon will beat them and it'll be gg.
DonDimon
@Diogen84 man, you said you gonna uninstall the game after the patch, why bother forcing and justifying SM cheese this far?
Diogen84
Because I am batman(c)
I still hope relics won't do mad things and will not implemet all the cryings of poor only eldar players.
Orcs are much stronger than sm and you said nothing agains them except taunt.
Seems like personal revenge to sm.
Katitof has just disliked the true info about the mechanics of true damage) That is all what you, Relics, must know about these eldar players and their demands.