Well, As I predicted spectres became too powerful. There is no sense to play annihilation. The backdooring is too fast and too powerful. People started play mass spectres. Most of players just go spectres + wraithblades. DA? hey are cool now, but nobody uses them despite the buffs and I will explain why. That is not because they are still "weak".
Yesterday I was playing both eldar and sm in order to compare changes.
DA have buffs yes, but nobody plays them, because of much more efficient reapers, who just rip enemy into pieces. 6+ splited reapers kill everything - both vehicles and infantry. Devs can not do that. Can somebody check the setup time of reapers? They seem to setup much faster, however, that was not mentioned in the patch notes. DW BTW could be easily and fast killed by reapers.
Reapers BTW in seconds destroy the shield from sm banner and actually any shield in the game.
So the banner is ok.
SM now plays only devs + tacs, because asm were nerfed too much. And that is all, no other options. No variety. Really, the last few matches people did no build them at all. 1 match I encountered mass asm, but they were evaporated by Macha and reapers... ASM do not cost 500req. They must be efficient according to that price, but now they are complete trash. The leap is also trash. Just a third jump. maybe it requires not a full nerf but changes as like as knob got? Think about that.
Banshees are fine. Do not buff or nerf them. Really. ASM are not ok. If somebody say "a, wait, what about flamers?" I would say - try to run them TRHOUGH the flamer squad and strike from behind - you will receive 0 flamer dmg after that. Without grenade. Micro? Yes micro, but that faction is your own preference, try sm - they have less micro. Every faction have "special" units. Deal with it(c)someone from this forum(not repeated literally). But asm... I think they must be reworked. That does not depend on like or dislike of the post. And you, Relics, know that.
Vipers definitely need buff of hp(not shields!). the dmg is ok, but they are not living enough.
Surprisingly Diomedes is ok and has well-fitted cost.
LP also cost too much. 250 will be golden mean I assume. With 300 req, there is no sence to use doctrine for them.
And again - the tsm grenades have been ignored for 2 balance patches.
Really - 15normal dmg against 60dmg of ork's. Wth doctrine. Make it 30-40 with doctine at least.. I understand that this will require rework of DA grenade, but this must be done.
And as I said I am quit till the next patch . This one brought just new meta and no variety on the battlefield. Sm had option - go to the melee or go into range with different kind of forces but now it is only tsm and devs.
Eldars got different ways to play, but they play mostly reapers and mass spectres. wraithguards?pf. they cost too much , and are much slow than spectres. They didn't require DOUBLE buff(price and speed), and I told about that, but it wasn't counted. Well, we've got anothed disbalance stuff.
Actually, the patch brought only new meta - but no variety, at least for sm.
I also do not understand why you made the topic for discussing of that patch before release and didn't react on any propositions. The last post of community manager was done 6 days ago(!). Is that just for filled checkbox? I feel deceived for example. That is not how things are doing.
I somewhat agree with this, but I also think the nerf isn't that bad. I still need to play and see, but if damage is now on per squad rather than per entitiy...I would imagine that means some damage was previously lost. Say a 300hp entity was killed by the bomb with the rest of the squad just outside the threshold of the blast. That would mean 300 AP damage was just lost and void. Now I imagine that damage (which is now TRUE damage instead of AP) will cascade over to other entities in the squad. If this indeed works this way, then nerf isn't that bad.
However, I feel a bigger problem is Orks lack of voice on these forums and indeed in the original patch feedback thread. I am biased as and Ork main (not high level either), sure. But I saw squigs and Kommando bomb mentioned alot...does everyone understand how these work? Correct me if I'm wrong, but these skills are completely, 100%, capable of being negated. Not just slightly "mitigated", not "escaped", completely NEGATED. Kommando bomb needs scrap or his mine to create bomb. Scrap and mines are destructable. Bring a detector, see the Kommando, see the mine, destroy it, no bomb.
Yay, first post! Orks need more advocates!
Yeah right this is the same case as banelling mines in SC 2. If u r good and pay a close attention to ur army instead of A-move ur army and look away, the bombs r literally useless as it takes 2 seconds? to explode and u can just move ur army away. However this is not the case for DOW 3 as 80% of the player base aint really good and they dont pay attention to their troops and somehow managed to clump their whole army together into 1 blob instead of spreading them out. That combines with the lack of awareness and skill to react is just devastating. Its like the Nidalee's spear issue in League they r soo easy to dodge and slow as fk but most ppl dont have the reaction/awareness to dodge the spear therefore Rito nerfed it to oblivion... DOW 3 suffers the same issue, unfortunately, as the game is balanced by the bad majority, not the highest level few elitists
Just a friendly reminder, baiting other users falls under trolling. Also, when Reporting posts, please do not respond to them at the same time. It only makes the issue worse.
@Northanui Just because you can't give your workers due diligence doesn't mean the game needs to be reshaped for everyone. There isn't another elite in the game that gets completely countered with a mere 50 requisition.
And it's not as if you had to scout the whole map for him, only choke points and scrap heaps. For all his stealth mechanics Knob's bombs are still very predictable.
@DmonBlu said:
they dont pay attention to their troops and somehow managed to clump their whole army together into 1 blob instead of spreading them out. That combines with the lack of awareness
Precisely this. I am as guilty as anyone of blobbing units and getting punished, but that is mostly on me when I KNOW there are abilities out there that can wipe my army. Not to say that is how it should be, but in Kommando's case you know he is around...you know what he can do and there are ways to 100% counter his scrap bomb.
@Northanui said:
nope. he was straight up one of the most op heroes in the game. The amount of games I lost in ork vs ork, where I demolished his army with better play, I have a full hp nob squad, 3point zapnoggin, 2-3 shootas and 1 boy out. Then, he sneaks his commando in, and DESPITE me having gretchin near my army, they were not "close enough" (the standard detection range is very small), and literally wipes my entire army with 1 bomb because it covers like an entire metric-map of area (much bigger than the skill animation).
See above ^. You just demolished his army and you have Zapnoggin out so you can make a pretty definitive guess that Kommando may be around and about. If the Kommando didn't appear while you were demolishing his army you should have been massively concerned about him sneaking around setting up a bomb.
I just feel Orks get the short-end of the stick in some of these discussions and comparisons. Again, my bias is showing, but take my previous comments about counters to Kommando bomb. Compare that ability to other potentially squad wiping and/or army wiping abilities. Macha's Q+W, Jain Zar's Q boomerrang and W dash, Jonah's Wall+Q ("I'm not trapped in here with you...you're trapped in here with ME!" - Combo). Now I think the patch change will bring the Kommando bomb more in-line with these other abilities and that is good (haven't tried it yet, so maybe still too much or too little), but when considering the counters and Kommando's reliance on scrap and/or setup of mines tactically; I think he deserves at least a bit more damage relative to other similar abilities that really have no means of defending against other than simply avoiding them. Maybe not as much as before this patch...but still.
@Diogen84 said:
Well, As I predicted spectres became too powerful. There is no sense to play annihilation. The backdooring is too fast and too powerful. People started play mass spectres. Most of players just go spectres + wraithblades. DA? hey are cool now, but nobody uses them despite the buffs and I will explain why. That is not because they are still "weak".
Yesterday I was playing both eldar and sm in order to compare changes.
DA have buffs yes, but nobody plays them, because of much more efficient reapers, who just rip enemy into pieces. 6+ splited reapers kill everything - both vehicles and infantry. Devs can not do that. Can somebody check the setup time of reapers? They seem to setup much faster, however, that was not mentioned in the patch notes. DW BTW could be easily and fast killed by reapers.
Reapers BTW in seconds destroy the shield from sm banner and actually any shield in the game.
So the banner is ok.
SM now plays only devs + tacs, because asm were nerfed too much. And that is all, no other options. No variety. Really, the last few matches people did no build them at all. 1 match I encountered mass asm, but they were evaporated by Macha and reapers... ASM do not cost 500req. They must be efficient according to that price, but now they are complete trash. The leap is also trash. Just a third jump. maybe it requires not a full nerf but changes as like as knob got? Think about that.
Banshees are fine. Do not buff or nerf them. Really. ASM are not ok. If somebody say "a, wait, what about flamers?" I would say - try to run them TRHOUGH the flamer squad and strike from behind - you will receive 0 flamer dmg after that. Without grenade. Micro? Yes micro, but that faction is your own preference, try sm - they have less micro. Every faction have "special" units. Deal with it(c)someone from this forum(not repeated literally). But asm... I think they must be reworked. That does not depend on like or dislike of the post. And you, Relics, know that.
Vipers definitely need buff of hp(not shields!). the dmg is ok, but they are not living enough.
Surprisingly Diomedes is ok and has well-fitted cost.
LP also cost too much. 250 will be golden mean I assume. With 300 req, there is no sence to use doctrine for them.
And again - the tsm grenades have been ignored for 2 balance patches.
Really - 15normal dmg against 60dmg of ork's. Wth doctrine. Make it 30-40 with doctine at least.. I understand that this will require rework of DA grenade, but this must be done.
And as I said I am quit till the next patch . This one brought just new meta and no variety on the battlefield. Sm had option - go to the melee or go into range with different kind of forces but now it is only tsm and devs.
Eldars got different ways to play, but they play mostly reapers and mass spectres. wraithguards?pf. they cost too much , and are much slow than spectres. They didn't require DOUBLE buff(price and speed), and I told about that, but it wasn't counted. Well, we've got anothed disbalance stuff.
Actually, the patch brought only new meta - but no variety, at least for sm.
I also do not understand why you made the topic for discussing of that patch before release and didn't react on any propositions. The last post of community manager was done 6 days ago(!). Is that just for filled checkbox? I feel deceived for example. That is not how things are doing.
I'm not sure if shadowspectres are that good- cata and vindi didn't seem to use them early at all. But maybe if they wreck shieldgens too easy just reduce dmg on objectives a bit, but too early to say.
ASM are just not a nobrainer unit anymore- but they got there place, refering to ur example with the 6 dark reapers tieing up these dark reapers with asm would work very well. Yes i know that's micro intensive. They still excel at harassing points and objectives.
ASM with powerswords rekt cataclaws wraithblades pretty hard despite the power price. I think ASM are a situtional unit not a go to unit anymore- like banshees. (i saw almost every SM going with some asm)
Banner is rly good but eldar can play around it with the new speed- i think the game looks quite balanced now.
I did't notice a difference in setup time of dark reapers
U can't compare tac grenades with shootaboyz- shootas need to scrap up to have a grenade and need a building to be produced and can't be upgraded with flamers and got less hp.
Vyper and deffcopters are still units that wont get used often bc they are insane squishy.
I think SM got alot of variety (so I'm not playing alot of SM, but from what i have seen):
flamer build
scouts look at n0ave (scout snipers)
and dev heavy playstyles (supplemented with tacs or asm)
I'm not sure if shadowspectres are that good- cata and vindi didn't seem to use them early at all. But maybe if they wreck shieldgens too easy just reduce dmg on objectives a bit, but too early to say.
ASM are just not a nobrainer unit anymore- but they got there place, refering to ur example with the 6 dark reapers tieing up these dark reapers with asm would work very well. Yes i know that's micro intensive. They still excel at harassing points and objectives.
ASM with powerswords rekt cataclaws wraithblades pretty hard despite the power price. I think ASM are a situtional unit not a go to unit anymore- like banshees. (i saw almost every SM going with some asm)
Banner is rly good but eldar can play around it with the new speed- i think the game looks quite balanced now.
I did't notice a difference in setup time of dark reapers
U can't compare tac grenades with shootaboyz- shootas need to scrap up to have a grenade and need a building to be produced and can't be upgraded with flamers and got less hp.
Vyper and deffcopters are still units that wont get used often bc they are insane squishy.
I think SM got alot of variety (so I'm not playing alot of SM, but from what i have seen):
flamer build
scouts look at n0ave (scout snipers)
and dev heavy playstyles (supplemented with tacs or asm)
This is an opinion post (following the trend )
Specters are good, however going for them early is economical suicide as first one will cost you almost 500 req, in early game you can do a LOT with 500 req and you'll have an advantage over eldar army+they still die like flies without upgrades. There is nothing overpowered about them unless you ignore them completely and if you do, that's kind of your fault.
Their DPS and range is also lower then that of LC devs.
You want to play specters if you go extended T1, aka no T2 by 10th minute, they are meant to help you stay in that T1 for longer as eldar got quite a few mandatory power hungry stuff here.
Agreed on ASMs, they are just another viable unit, like any other T1 unit, they aren't go-to unit, unless that's your playstyle. Nothing OP or UP about them.
Agreed on nades as well, ork nades are nuke tools, eldar nades are CC tools which can be upgraded to be somewhat nuke-y, LSM doctrinal nades is just a cherry on top of very potent squad, making them even better against melee.
Vypers are bad unless you mass them, nothing to argue here, however deffkoptas can be pretty potent, there is one ork player who makes a great use of their potential.
Commando nerf is not wise, it was unnecessary. If somebody complained about him - he just had too low skill to use his detection/scout units. Commando was mostly useless against careful players, but had a nice defensive potential with his bombs, while holding the covers near shield generators. He was able to prevent enemy melee blob attacks by his own. Now he has no such capability. One nobs squad or 2x ASM now could ignore him and beat shield generator. The only good thing saved is his presence doctrine. But with his relatively small boomstick damage, and pathetic melee damage, Commando was turned into useless elite with the new patch. Good job, Relics!
P.S.: I know, now the bomb deals 600 damage (instead of 240) to single Elites. This is not a compensation at all.
@Jelly said:
I gotta say that Kommando nerf is a huge overreaction to forum hate. His extreme setup requirements and very weak payout will not be worth it over weirdboy who costs exactly the same.
@DmonBlu said:
DOW 3 suffers the same issue, unfortunately, as the game is balanced by the bad majority, not the >highest level few elitists
I just feel Orks get the short-end of the stick in some of these discussions and comparisons. Again, my bias is showing, but take my previous comments about counters to Kommando bomb. Compare that ability to other potentially squad wiping and/or army wiping abilities. Macha's Q+W, Jain Zar's Q boomerrang and W dash, Jonah's Wall+Q ("I'm not trapped in here with you...you're trapped in here with ME!" - Combo).
Agreed. The kommando nerf is evidence to me that the balance team doesn't seem to know what they are doing.
The Eldar players seem to be overrepresented, and this seems to be where the devs are getting most of their feedback, whatever is the biggest forum gripe from them is addressed. .It probably comes from the fact Eldar was OP in previous games, and Eldar, like protoss in starcraft, has a disproportionate amount of bad players who bring win rates down and make the race look like it is performing worse than it should.
The "Eldar feel" complaint was brought up by cataclaw then repeated by a few others. This guy did not play dawn of war 1, or dawn of war 2, he doesn't know what it is supposed to "feel" like to play Eldar before. The Eldar "feel" he was talking about is the prepatch eldar that dominated their opponent all over the map with ease.
When asked about kyre, popular casters would admit he was OP but you didn't see them making any threads about it, and this is why we didn't get a nerf until this patch. Worse imbalances exist, like flamers instantly appearing on one of your opponents guys and torching all your boyz squads with no ability to react, but instead we get a forum-rally cry nerf to stikkbombs, which have a 50% smaller AoE than other grenades and require scrap upgrades, which means they are few to deal with and easier to dodge than the other grenades. Yet 2 DA grenades which they get for free and have 50% larger AOE = 80 true damage.
The devs seem to be eating up everything the popular casters say, which becomes a rally cry for the irrational Eldar forum dwellers, who in my opinion, are biased and lack perspective of other factions.
@Diogen84 said:
Well, As I predicted spectres became too powerful. There is no sense to play annihilation. The backdooring is too fast and too powerful. People started play mass spectres. Most of players just go spectres + wraithblades. DA? hey are cool now, but nobody uses them despite the buffs and I will explain why. That is not because they are still "weak".
Yesterday I was playing both eldar and sm in order to compare changes.
DA have buffs yes, but nobody plays them, because of much more efficient reapers, who just rip enemy into pieces. 6+ splited reapers kill everything - both vehicles and infantry. Devs can not do that. Can somebody check the setup time of reapers? They seem to setup much faster, however, that was not mentioned in the patch notes. DW BTW could be easily and fast killed by reapers.
Reapers BTW in seconds destroy the shield from sm banner and actually any shield in the game.
So the banner is ok.
SM now plays only devs + tacs, because asm were nerfed too much. And that is all, no other options. No variety. Really, the last few matches people did no build them at all. 1 match I encountered mass asm, but they were evaporated by Macha and reapers... ASM do not cost 500req. They must be efficient according to that price, but now they are complete trash. The leap is also trash. Just a third jump. maybe it requires not a full nerf but changes as like as knob got? Think about that.
Banshees are fine. Do not buff or nerf them. Really. ASM are not ok. If somebody say "a, wait, what about flamers?" I would say - try to run them TRHOUGH the flamer squad and strike from behind - you will receive 0 flamer dmg after that. Without grenade. Micro? Yes micro, but that faction is your own preference, try sm - they have less micro. Every faction have "special" units. Deal with it(c)someone from this forum(not repeated literally). But asm... I think they must be reworked. That does not depend on like or dislike of the post. And you, Relics, know that.
Vipers definitely need buff of hp(not shields!). the dmg is ok, but they are not living enough.
Surprisingly Diomedes is ok and has well-fitted cost.
LP also cost too much. 250 will be golden mean I assume. With 300 req, there is no sence to use doctrine for them.
And again - the tsm grenades have been ignored for 2 balance patches.
Really - 15normal dmg against 60dmg of ork's. Wth doctrine. Make it 30-40 with doctine at least.. I understand that this will require rework of DA grenade, but this must be done.
And as I said I am quit till the next patch . This one brought just new meta and no variety on the battlefield. Sm had option - go to the melee or go into range with different kind of forces but now it is only tsm and devs.
Eldars got different ways to play, but they play mostly reapers and mass spectres. wraithguards?pf. they cost too much , and are much slow than spectres. They didn't require DOUBLE buff(price and speed), and I told about that, but it wasn't counted. Well, we've got anothed disbalance stuff.
Actually, the patch brought only new meta - but no variety, at least for sm.
I also do not understand why you made the topic for discussing of that patch before release and didn't react on any propositions. The last post of community manager was done 6 days ago(!). Is that just for filled checkbox? I feel deceived for example. That is not how things are doing.
But... but... Shadowspectres and Reapers are no Falcons so they can't be OP
Reapers shoot AoE projectiles which look like falcon shots - definitive proof that reapers are OP AF.
Specters are skimmers, just like falcon and they cost requisition and power, just like falcon - coincidence? I think not - undeniably OP.
@YbuBaKa said:
Commando nerf is not wise, it was unnecessary. If somebody complained about him - he just had too low skill to use his detection/scout units. Commando was mostly useless against careful players, but had a nice defensive potential with his bombs, while holding the covers near shield generators. He was able to prevent enemy melee blob attacks by his own. Now he has no such capability. One nobs squad or 2x ASM now could ignore him and beat shield generator. The only good thing saved is his presence doctrine. But with his relatively small boomstick damage, and pathetic melee damage, Commando was turned into useless elite with the new patch. Good job, Relics!
P.S.: I know, now the bomb deals 600 damage (instead of 240) to single Elites. This is not a compensation at all.
I think people see there army exploding and are like this i uncouterable instead of taking a worker with them. Kommando was even before the patch a risky pick and I myself had alot more success with weirdboy. I think the complain is that a booby trap can win the game. So I think with that nerf we should give Kommando smth else that's maybe more consistent good.
I consider it a bit rich that just because you disagree with the balance changes, that therefore the balance team doesn't know what its doing. Opinions don't work like that, and balancing often involves problems with a number of viable solutions. To cross-post myself from GameReplays:
It's a mechanical change, one that will allow for better balancing going forwards. Much like the max-hit mechanical changes to various nukes. It's something that doesn't directly change damage (though this specific change does more), but refocuses the ability and allows it to be tuned up or down vs. the intended targets instead of nerfing or buffing it against everyone.
Also, bringing this ability in-line will make it more obvious where his other faults are.
I consider it a bit rich that just because you disagree with the balance changes, that therefore the balance team doesn't know what its doing. Opinions don't work like that, and balancing often involves problems with a number of viable solutions. To cross-post myself from GameReplays:
It's a mechanical change, one that will allow for better balancing going forwards. Much like the max-hit mechanical changes to various nukes. It's something that doesn't directly change damage (though this specific change does more), but refocuses the ability and allows it to be tuned up or down vs. the intended targets instead of nerfing or buffing it against everyone.
Also, bringing this ability in-line will make it more obvious where his other faults are.
Opinion post.
Cant we just do away with elite squads and make them units. LIke scorpions, spiders, stormboys, meganobs, terminators (ranged and melee). I dont know if the wraith lord should be removed from the elite or not and be made into regular heavy infantry but with a build limit. Discuss.
I love how SM players, who were complaining like crazy about Eldar OPness since launch, which led to the first balance patch that made things even worse, now blame Eldar players for their pleas to make things fair and square.
And those claims about the Eldar being over-represented, when it's SM who make up approx 60% of game population, and saying that Eldar have a disproportionate amount of bad players, just out of nowhere...
All this makes me sad that some SMs crave for total undisputed supremacy, not skill but mechanics based. Fair play my a$$...
I know Gorb asked just to flag toxic posts and not to reply to them, but I just can't believe what I'm reading
@CadisEtramaDiRaizel said:
Cant we just do away with elite squads and make them units. LIke scorpions, spiders, stormboys, meganobs, terminators (ranged and melee). I dont know if the wraith lord should be removed from the elite or not and be made into regular heavy infantry but with a build limit. Discuss.
They already are units. Bit of a pedantic point, I know. But what you're asking for isn't for them to be units.
You want them to be buildable units. But with a build limit? That doesn't make them much different. The whole point of Elites is to refine that artificial build limit you found in vDoW (after patch 1.4 or 1.5, I forget which) and even DoW II (for the superheavies) into less of a shallow limitation. It's a system that increases pre-game strategy and allows for a strong ingame mechanical presence (unique call-in mechanic, point system, and so on).
Turning them into regular units removes all of this, and even removes the point of the tertiary Elite Point resource. While I can see the merit in adding a regular resource cost to Elite Units (as others have suggested), I still personally disagree because a) the Line Units should be resource-balanced against themselves primarily and b) it reduces the impact of the Elite Point resource and how important it can be to map control.
That doesn't mean it drives map control right now. That's down to map balance, Elite Point generation rates and so on. But it can, in a key manner. That's its importance.
@Nassir_Amit said:
a fairly small patch to say the least, intersted ,what will come in terms of content now .....
They turned this around in literally a week, which considering the size of the studio is very impressive. I'm not going to get into details, but the larger a software company is, the more processes they have (and need to have) and the more this impacts scheduling any kind of product release.
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
There's no need to generalize players. I play SM a lot and I'm not complaining, so please remember that. I was concerned about a total of 5 nerfs to the predator line, but I'm playing it out.
On the other side, so far the Eldar look a lot better. I think each patch is bring overall balance closer and closer. Elites could use a little more tuning here and there, but getting the armies closer to parody will help with the analysis in that regard.
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
ASMs are highest HP, highest DPS, highest mobility AND highest crowd control T1 unit. There is no reason why it wouldn't be highest priced T1 unit.
There are elites which syngergise very well with them, like Gabe, Dio, Jonah.
You're completely deluded if you think tacts are better then them in any of it.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM were used just as often as ever.
They simply were not spammed.
Sorry that you have to use combined arms instead of spam 1 unit to win, that's how the game was always meant to be playing.
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
ASMs are highest HP, highest DPS, highest mobility AND highest crowd control T1 unit. There is no reason why it wouldn't be highest priced T1 unit.
There are elites which syngergise very well with them, like Gabe, Dio, Jonah.
You're completely deluded if you think tacts are better then them in any of it.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM were used just as often as ever.
They simply were not spammed.
Sorry that you have to use combined arms instead of spam 1 unit to win, that's how the game was always meant to be playing.
Do you even play SM? Ever heard about such things as utility and cost efficiency? ASM spam was viable only on release and still rekt by OP Eldar, now there's no point to spend time and resources for unit which obviously underperforms in comparison to cheaper and more versatile one. Tac with flamer is far more effective than ASM in melee just wiping units in a blink. You can amass them without big damage to economy and guarantee fast tech, while even 1-2 ASM will delay and hurt your eco (consider cost+maintenance). If you ever play 1v1 and not noticing that literally every SM player spams tacs with occasional devs early game, and there's reason - they just don't have anything else, than that is truly being delusional.
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
Firstly please show me where I said that I want to SPAM ASM? Be very careful what you're implying. Secondly, are you saying tacs must be spammed and that's ok? My general point here is that I'm against of spam of any unit by any race, but with this patch SM are obviously encouraged to do so.
Now we have obvious N0ave's scout spam and meta tac spam, fantastic! So much diversity, so much complexity of builds...
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
Firstly please show me where I said that I want to SPAM ASM? Be very careful what you're implying. Secondly, are you saying tacs must be spammed and that's ok? My general point here is that I'm against of spam of any unit by any race, but with this patch SM are obviously encouraged to do so.
Now we have obvious N0ave's scout spam and meta tac spam, fantastic! So much diversity, so much complexity of builds...
getting a asm squad harassing points is quite good tbh with their jumps it's rly hard to catch them
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
Firstly please show me where I said that I want to SPAM ASM? Be very careful what you're implying. Secondly, are you saying tacs must be spammed and that's ok? My general point here is that I'm against of spam of any unit by any race, but with this patch SM are obviously encouraged to do so.
Now we have obvious N0ave's scout spam and meta tac spam, fantastic! So much diversity, so much complexity of builds...
getting a asm squad harassing points is quite good tbh with their jumps it's rly hard to catch them
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
Stop smoking that weed. ASM is a flanker/engager NOT a front line unit. U build a bunch of tacs and mixed in a few specialists like ASM to disrupt their front line and give u a combat advantage. This is how its supposed to be played (if u r a DOW 1 player u should know what Im talking bout) NOT SPAMMING 1 unit and hope to magically win the game with no skill/strat/build related... Tacs is good in melee? Try 1 tac squad vs 1 banshee squad and see the result for urself. Tacs has better survibility? Plzz they melt in 2 seconds after gettin hit by a few stikkbombs which is so easy for ASM to dodge but so so hard for tacs (less u r ByuN and u r trolling ). Better disruption??? How the hell is this even possible? They r generalists/front line unit they CANNOT possibly disrupt better than ASM- a specialist unit... They cant engage, dont have any CCs and free get out of jail card like ASM... The best they can do is throw a grenade at the enemy but that can be easily dodged and requires a doctrine slot. About flamer, IIRC all u need to do is move forward to a side since the cone is soooo narrow. Yes that might put u in an unfavorable position but mass flamer isnt exactly a good strat especially vs Eldar as they can spam skimmers and completely roll over u (tacs with flamers r very slow and extremely easy to kite). The last update nerfed Tireless to oblivion so Irdk wut r even talkin bout. The rest of their doctrines r NOT OP or give them a significant advantage of any kinds. IMHO u r just whining instead of trying to improve ur skill (no spam 1 unit isnt a legit strat especially in high ranks) so Ill just leave u to urself
Relic forums killed my post, so i have to rewrite everything;
Here are some issues i currently have with the game and find worthy of a discussion and throw the ball around with. This is from the perspective of solely 1v1 games.
Worker units are currently too spammable, increase cost to 100 Requisition. This will also indirectly buff Stealth units.
Banshees need a HP buff, they are currently too squishy and die on approach.
Wraithguard projectile needs a hefty speed buff. The unit is already very slow movement speed, with a very slow fire rate. Gonna give us slow projectiles too? And they can be knocked around & the same DPS as LC Devs? Relic please. Looks at Killa Kan
Whirlwind needs to be moved to Tier 3 with its racial equivalents (Fire Prism, Trukk) this thing is extremely toxic in the Eldar vs. SM match-up, where it counters WWG, Infantry Barracks and Wraith units. Can also manage to counter Fire Prism with a good barrage. True Damage pretty gut.
Eldar really needs a shield regeneration buff. It takes ages to regenerate shields on Wraithblade for example, because the Shield Regeneration is a flat low amount and seems to be balanced around regenerating on Dire Avengers. Make it % based instead already. And whats up with Shield Regeneration costing 75 power + 25 power for the Soul Shrine?
Whats up with Eldar being so ++heresy redacted++ shitty at scaling in this game compared to the other races?
Eldar is the only faction with no scaling faction mechanic! SM get better Chapter Standard and access to more drop pods, Orks get more Waagh!, scrap and late game
50% cheaper units. Eldar get.. single webway connection, which won't even work with actual Webway gate before T3 and dies if something sneezes on it.
Skimmers, which have low shields to begin with and take 100%!! more dmg from infantry AT does not scale at all with shield upgrades.
1 hp upgrades for Land Speeders gives them 15% additional HP.
3 shield upgrades for Fire Prisms give them 18% additional Shield.
Overall, this patch made the Early game feel really well, but now the late game problems is easier to see.
@Cataclawy said:
Relic forums killed my post, so i have to rewrite everything;
Here are some issues i currently have with the game and find worthy of a discussion and throw the ball around with. This is from the perspective of solely 1v1 games.
Worker units are currently too spammable, increase cost to 100 Requisition. This will also indirectly buff Stealth units.
Banshees need a HP buff, they are currently too squishy and die on approach.
Wraithguard projectile needs a hefty speed buff. The unit is already very slow movement speed, with a very slow fire rate. Gonna give us slow projectiles too? And they can be knocked around & the same DPS as LC Devs? Relic please. Looks at Killa Kan
Whirlwind needs to be moved to Tier 3 with its racial equivalents (Fire Prism, Trukk) this thing is extremely toxic in the Eldar vs. SM match-up, where it counters WWG, Infantry Barracks and Wraith units. Can also manage to counter Fire Prism with a good barrage. True Damage pretty gut.
Eldar really needs a shield regeneration buff. It takes ages to regenerate shields on Wraithblade for example, because the Shield Regeneration is a flat low amount and seems to be balanced around regenerating on Dire Avengers. Make it % based instead already. And whats up with Shield Regeneration costing 75 power + 25 power for the Soul Shrine?
Whats up with Eldar being so ++heresy redacted++ shitty at scaling in this game compared to the other races?
Eldar is the only faction with no scaling faction mechanic! SM get better Chapter Standard and access to more drop pods, Orks get more Waagh!, scrap and late game
50% cheaper units. Eldar get.. single webway connection, which won't even work with actual Webway gate before T3 and dies if something sneezes on it.
Skimmers, which have low shields to begin with and take 100%!! more dmg from infantry AT does not scale at all with shield upgrades.
1 hp upgrades for Land Speeders gives them 15% additional HP.
3 shield upgrades for Fire Prisms give them 18% additional Shield.
Overall, this patch made the Early game feel really well, but now the late game problems is easier to see.
I agree with the whirlwind and the true damage thing. It completely shreds wraith units when its meant to counter normal armour ( description in game). Also, what is the purpose of the wraithblade? To fight predators which can easily kite it, to take out deff dreads and other walkers?
@Stoner said:
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
Firstly please show me where I said that I want to SPAM ASM? Be very careful what you're implying. Secondly, are you saying tacs must be spammed and that's ok? My general point here is that I'm against of spam of any unit by any race, but with this patch SM are obviously encouraged to do so.
Now we have obvious N0ave's scout spam and meta tac spam, fantastic! So much diversity, so much complexity of builds...
SM do not have too many specialised units like the eldar. The tactical marines were meant to fit most roles and scale with upgrades, So you can tacs with plasma, combined with tacs with bolters etc to deal with different enemy squads. Yes, tacs are your main infantry unit and you choose the upgrade path for each squad. You get other support squads to deal with meanacing units) ASM for reapers, scout to lay traps etc, snipers to kill builders, devastators when you want more fire power or need to take out buildings but for the most part tacs are your go to unit. The eldar are meant to be the counter specialist ( different aspect shrines).
I consider it a bit rich that just because you disagree with the balance changes, that therefore the balance team doesn't know what its doing. Opinions don't work like that, and balancing often involves problems with a number of viable solutions. To cross-post myself from GameReplays:
It's a mechanical change, one that will allow for better balancing going forwards. Much like the max-hit mechanical changes to various nukes. It's something that doesn't directly change damage (though this specific change does more), but refocuses the ability and allows it to be tuned up or down vs. the intended targets instead of nerfing or buffing it against everyone.
Also, bringing this ability in-line will make it more obvious where his other faults are.
Opinion post.
I apologize if came across as condescending. I realize balancing a game like this is an extremely difficult task.
Let me clarify. I'm not saying that some Kommando bomb damage nerf wasn't warranted. However, given the extreme set up requirements, don't you think 600 true damage is very weak and not punishing enough? What is not valid about the things other posters have said? When your opponent has kommando, you should just expect them to be waiting for you to make the mistake of pushing into one of their points without detection. This is something that has counterplay that just isn't being used. Don't you agree? I'd like to point out that It only takes 3 DA grenades to have the same effect on nobz. Additionally, once it happens to you, are you likely or unlikely to make the same mistake twice?
Of course, this is my opinion, but the reason I feel that this balance team doesn't know what they are doing doesn't stem from a single incident, but from several of them. Take for instance how Eldar functioned when the game released. Teleporting workers. How did they not see the issues with this? Game changing doctrines removed.
There were players on the ladder with upwards of 100+ wins in a row by abusing the imbalances and this went on for over a month. When we finally did get patch, it ignored the most OP elite in the game, which everyone who actually played the game knew was Kyre. A large number of buffs/nerfs are huge percentile changes, not small increments that we would expect with a game with good relative balance. I understand that sometimes what happens is that after release the original balance team often goes on to work on other projects while the rookies are left the balance the game with the help of guidance from a fraction of that group and I have to wonder if this is the case.
From what I can tell, there have been more complaints about stikkbombs recently, and this has become the latest rally cry against orks opponents. I'm not saying stikkbombs did or didn't need a nerf, but don't you think that a large part of the complaining is due to the fact that people just aren't dodging them? They have a 50% smaller AOE than other grenades and there are much fewer of them to deal with in the early game because they require scrap upgrades. What is the real issue here?
A flamer suddenly appearing on one of your opponents tacticals and torching your boyz without anywarning isn't a thing that a lot of people on the forums experience, apparently, but how is this fair?
Am I really so lacking in objectivity?
Strongly feel Relic is being influence way too much by a small community that is easily influenced. Every popular caster of DoW3 seems to have an Eldar bias, and as someone who used to subscribe to gomtV to watch koreans play starcraft, there are way too many mistakes and things these guys aren't doing that make them not entirely credible when they complain about balance.
I wish we could have the community update thread regarding this patch so we can see who complained about Kommando because i'm pretty sure it was a popular caster, and surely enough that was the only change to the patch.
The pros don't have all the answers either and are often biasd themselves, as blizzard can tell you. You might be surprised at the number of korean pro SC2 players who claim their faction is the weakest.
In my view, forums have a disproportionate number of discontents who overwhelmingly tend to be bad players and who will rally behind a cause which they believe will resolve their problems. This gets repeated so much that the devs start to believe it. One thing I've learned in my years as a gamer is that the devs need to stick with their vision of the game and be extremely wary against reacting to popular forum complaints. I've seen it destroy games before, as in the sad case of Darkfall Online
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Diogen84
Well, As I predicted spectres became too powerful. There is no sense to play annihilation. The backdooring is too fast and too powerful. People started play mass spectres. Most of players just go spectres + wraithblades. DA? hey are cool now, but nobody uses them despite the buffs and I will explain why. That is not because they are still "weak".
Yesterday I was playing both eldar and sm in order to compare changes.
DA have buffs yes, but nobody plays them, because of much more efficient reapers, who just rip enemy into pieces. 6+ splited reapers kill everything - both vehicles and infantry. Devs can not do that. Can somebody check the setup time of reapers? They seem to setup much faster, however, that was not mentioned in the patch notes. DW BTW could be easily and fast killed by reapers.
Reapers BTW in seconds destroy the shield from sm banner and actually any shield in the game.
So the banner is ok.
SM now plays only devs + tacs, because asm were nerfed too much. And that is all, no other options. No variety. Really, the last few matches people did no build them at all. 1 match I encountered mass asm, but they were evaporated by Macha and reapers... ASM do not cost 500req. They must be efficient according to that price, but now they are complete trash. The leap is also trash. Just a third jump. maybe it requires not a full nerf but changes as like as knob got? Think about that.
Banshees are fine. Do not buff or nerf them. Really. ASM are not ok. If somebody say "a, wait, what about flamers?" I would say - try to run them TRHOUGH the flamer squad and strike from behind - you will receive 0 flamer dmg after that. Without grenade. Micro? Yes micro, but that faction is your own preference, try sm - they have less micro. Every faction have "special" units. Deal with it(c)someone from this forum(not repeated literally). But asm... I think they must be reworked. That does not depend on like or dislike of the post. And you, Relics, know that.
Vipers definitely need buff of hp(not shields!). the dmg is ok, but they are not living enough.
Surprisingly Diomedes is ok and has well-fitted cost.
LP also cost too much. 250 will be golden mean I assume. With 300 req, there is no sence to use doctrine for them.
And again - the tsm grenades have been ignored for 2 balance patches.
Really - 15normal dmg against 60dmg of ork's. Wth doctrine. Make it 30-40 with doctine at least.. I understand that this will require rework of DA grenade, but this must be done.
And as I said I am quit till the next patch . This one brought just new meta and no variety on the battlefield. Sm had option - go to the melee or go into range with different kind of forces but now it is only tsm and devs.
Eldars got different ways to play, but they play mostly reapers and mass spectres. wraithguards?pf. they cost too much , and are much slow than spectres. They didn't require DOUBLE buff(price and speed), and I told about that, but it wasn't counted. Well, we've got anothed disbalance stuff.
Actually, the patch brought only new meta - but no variety, at least for sm.
I also do not understand why you made the topic for discussing of that patch before release and didn't react on any propositions. The last post of community manager was done 6 days ago(!). Is that just for filled checkbox? I feel deceived for example. That is not how things are doing.
DmonBlu
Yeah right this is the same case as banelling mines in SC 2. If u r good and pay a close attention to ur army instead of A-move ur army and look away, the bombs r literally useless as it takes 2 seconds? to explode and u can just move ur army away. However this is not the case for DOW 3 as 80% of the player base aint really good and they dont pay attention to their troops and somehow managed to clump their whole army together into 1 blob instead of spreading them out. That combines with the lack of awareness and skill to react is just devastating. Its like the Nidalee's spear issue in League they r soo easy to dodge and slow as fk but most ppl dont have the reaction/awareness to dodge the spear therefore Rito nerfed it to oblivion... DOW 3 suffers the same issue, unfortunately, as the game is balanced by the bad majority, not the highest level few elitists
Gorb
Just a friendly reminder, baiting other users falls under trolling. Also, when Reporting posts, please do not respond to them at the same time. It only makes the issue worse.
Cleaned up some posts.
Moderator Post
Jelly
@Northanui Just because you can't give your workers due diligence doesn't mean the game needs to be reshaped for everyone. There isn't another elite in the game that gets completely countered with a mere 50 requisition.
And it's not as if you had to scout the whole map for him, only choke points and scrap heaps. For all his stealth mechanics Knob's bombs are still very predictable.
Shuttdown
Precisely this. I am as guilty as anyone of blobbing units and getting punished, but that is mostly on me when I KNOW there are abilities out there that can wipe my army. Not to say that is how it should be, but in Kommando's case you know he is around...you know what he can do and there are ways to 100% counter his scrap bomb.
See above ^. You just demolished his army and you have Zapnoggin out so you can make a pretty definitive guess that Kommando may be around and about. If the Kommando didn't appear while you were demolishing his army you should have been massively concerned about him sneaking around setting up a bomb.
I just feel Orks get the short-end of the stick in some of these discussions and comparisons. Again, my bias is showing, but take my previous comments about counters to Kommando bomb. Compare that ability to other potentially squad wiping and/or army wiping abilities. Macha's Q+W, Jain Zar's Q boomerrang and W dash, Jonah's Wall+Q ("I'm not trapped in here with you...you're trapped in here with ME!" - Combo). Now I think the patch change will bring the Kommando bomb more in-line with these other abilities and that is good (haven't tried it yet, so maybe still too much or too little), but when considering the counters and Kommando's reliance on scrap and/or setup of mines tactically; I think he deserves at least a bit more damage relative to other similar abilities that really have no means of defending against other than simply avoiding them. Maybe not as much as before this patch...but still.
Murador
I'm not sure if shadowspectres are that good- cata and vindi didn't seem to use them early at all. But maybe if they wreck shieldgens too easy just reduce dmg on objectives a bit, but too early to say.
ASM are just not a nobrainer unit anymore- but they got there place, refering to ur example with the 6 dark reapers tieing up these dark reapers with asm would work very well. Yes i know that's micro intensive. They still excel at harassing points and objectives.
ASM with powerswords rekt cataclaws wraithblades pretty hard despite the power price. I think ASM are a situtional unit not a go to unit anymore- like banshees. (i saw almost every SM going with some asm)
Banner is rly good but eldar can play around it with the new speed- i think the game looks quite balanced now.
I did't notice a difference in setup time of dark reapers
U can't compare tac grenades with shootaboyz- shootas need to scrap up to have a grenade and need a building to be produced and can't be upgraded with flamers and got less hp.
Vyper and deffcopters are still units that wont get used often bc they are insane squishy.
I think SM got alot of variety (so I'm not playing alot of SM, but from what i have seen):
This is an opinion post (following the trend
)
Katitof
Specters are good, however going for them early is economical suicide as first one will cost you almost 500 req, in early game you can do a LOT with 500 req and you'll have an advantage over eldar army+they still die like flies without upgrades. There is nothing overpowered about them unless you ignore them completely and if you do, that's kind of your fault.
Their DPS and range is also lower then that of LC devs.
You want to play specters if you go extended T1, aka no T2 by 10th minute, they are meant to help you stay in that T1 for longer as eldar got quite a few mandatory power hungry stuff here.
Agreed on ASMs, they are just another viable unit, like any other T1 unit, they aren't go-to unit, unless that's your playstyle. Nothing OP or UP about them.
Agreed on nades as well, ork nades are nuke tools, eldar nades are CC tools which can be upgraded to be somewhat nuke-y, LSM doctrinal nades is just a cherry on top of very potent squad, making them even better against melee.
Vypers are bad unless you mass them, nothing to argue here, however deffkoptas can be pretty potent, there is one ork player who makes a great use of their potential.
YbuBaKa
Commando nerf is not wise, it was unnecessary. If somebody complained about him - he just had too low skill to use his detection/scout units. Commando was mostly useless against careful players, but had a nice defensive potential with his bombs, while holding the covers near shield generators. He was able to prevent enemy melee blob attacks by his own. Now he has no such capability. One nobs squad or 2x ASM now could ignore him and beat shield generator. The only good thing saved is his presence doctrine. But with his relatively small boomstick damage, and pathetic melee damage, Commando was turned into useless elite with the new patch. Good job, Relics!
P.S.: I know, now the bomb deals 600 damage (instead of 240) to single Elites. This is not a compensation at all.
frumpylumps
Agreed. The kommando nerf is evidence to me that the balance team doesn't seem to know what they are doing.
The Eldar players seem to be overrepresented, and this seems to be where the devs are getting most of their feedback, whatever is the biggest forum gripe from them is addressed. .It probably comes from the fact Eldar was OP in previous games, and Eldar, like protoss in starcraft, has a disproportionate amount of bad players who bring win rates down and make the race look like it is performing worse than it should.
The "Eldar feel" complaint was brought up by cataclaw then repeated by a few others. This guy did not play dawn of war 1, or dawn of war 2, he doesn't know what it is supposed to "feel" like to play Eldar before. The Eldar "feel" he was talking about is the prepatch eldar that dominated their opponent all over the map with ease.
When asked about kyre, popular casters would admit he was OP but you didn't see them making any threads about it, and this is why we didn't get a nerf until this patch. Worse imbalances exist, like flamers instantly appearing on one of your opponents guys and torching all your boyz squads with no ability to react, but instead we get a forum-rally cry nerf to stikkbombs, which have a 50% smaller AoE than other grenades and require scrap upgrades, which means they are few to deal with and easier to dodge than the other grenades. Yet 2 DA grenades which they get for free and have 50% larger AOE = 80 true damage.
The devs seem to be eating up everything the popular casters say, which becomes a rally cry for the irrational Eldar forum dwellers, who in my opinion, are biased and lack perspective of other factions.
Murador
We could even go further it's an non SM unit
.
Murador
I think people see there army exploding and are like this i uncouterable instead of taking a worker with them. Kommando was even before the patch a risky pick and I myself had alot more success with weirdboy. I think the complain is that a booby trap can win the game. So I think with that nerf we should give Kommando smth else that's maybe more consistent good.
Gorb
@frumpylumps
I consider it a bit rich that just because you disagree with the balance changes, that therefore the balance team doesn't know what its doing. Opinions don't work like that, and balancing often involves problems with a number of viable solutions. To cross-post myself from GameReplays:
It's a mechanical change, one that will allow for better balancing going forwards. Much like the max-hit mechanical changes to various nukes. It's something that doesn't directly change damage (though this specific change does more), but refocuses the ability and allows it to be tuned up or down vs. the intended targets instead of nerfing or buffing it against everyone.
Also, bringing this ability in-line will make it more obvious where his other faults are.
Opinion post.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
Cant we just do away with elite squads and make them units. LIke scorpions, spiders, stormboys, meganobs, terminators (ranged and melee). I dont know if the wraith lord should be removed from the elite or not and be made into regular heavy infantry but with a build limit. Discuss.
DonDimon
I love how SM players, who were complaining like crazy about Eldar OPness since launch, which led to the first balance patch that made things even worse, now blame Eldar players for their pleas to make things fair and square.
And those claims about the Eldar being over-represented, when it's SM who make up approx 60% of game population, and saying that Eldar have a disproportionate amount of bad players, just out of nowhere...
All this makes me sad that some SMs crave for total undisputed supremacy, not skill but mechanics based. Fair play my a$$...
I know Gorb asked just to flag toxic posts and not to reply to them, but I just can't believe what I'm reading
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
@Gorb The wraithblades charge is still not a passive. Have all the changes been implemented?
Gorb
They already are units. Bit of a pedantic point, I know. But what you're asking for isn't for them to be units.
You want them to be buildable units. But with a build limit? That doesn't make them much different. The whole point of Elites is to refine that artificial build limit you found in vDoW (after patch 1.4 or 1.5, I forget which) and even DoW II (for the superheavies) into less of a shallow limitation. It's a system that increases pre-game strategy and allows for a strong ingame mechanical presence (unique call-in mechanic, point system, and so on).
Turning them into regular units removes all of this, and even removes the point of the tertiary Elite Point resource. While I can see the merit in adding a regular resource cost to Elite Units (as others have suggested), I still personally disagree because a) the Line Units should be resource-balanced against themselves primarily and b) it reduces the impact of the Elite Point resource and how important it can be to map control.
That doesn't mean it drives map control right now. That's down to map balance, Elite Point generation rates and so on. But it can, in a key manner. That's its importance.
They turned this around in literally a week, which considering the size of the studio is very impressive. I'm not going to get into details, but the larger a software company is, the more processes they have (and need to have) and the more this impacts scheduling any kind of product release.
Stoner
What the hell are talking about? How ASM are fine? They are MOST expensive T1 unit, power dependent, cost a fortune to reinforce and you cannot preserve them as tacs or devs from model loss, because they are a front line units. Tacs are currently better in melee, survivability and disruption, but cost no energy and 100 less req, have insane utility with flamer and OP doctrines, while ASM ain't got jack. With last nerf they lose to setup teams 2:3, which is extremely ridiculous.
Since previous patch there were almost NO matches where ASM have been used even once. With new patch there are zero. What does it mean go-to unit? They aren't even an option now. I understand that most players suck at micro and complex army compositions, thus they are happy they can only spam tacs and win, but this is stupid game design in every possible way bogging down your choice to 1-2 units out of 5 available.
RedDevilCG
There's no need to generalize players. I play SM a lot and I'm not complaining, so please remember that. I was concerned about a total of 5 nerfs to the predator line, but I'm playing it out.
On the other side, so far the Eldar look a lot better. I think each patch is bring overall balance closer and closer. Elites could use a little more tuning here and there, but getting the armies closer to parody will help with the analysis in that regard.
Katitof
ASMs are highest HP, highest DPS, highest mobility AND highest crowd control T1 unit. There is no reason why it wouldn't be highest priced T1 unit.
There are elites which syngergise very well with them, like Gabe, Dio, Jonah.
You're completely deluded if you think tacts are better then them in any of it.
ASM were used just as often as ever.
They simply were not spammed.
Sorry that you have to use combined arms instead of spam 1 unit to win, that's how the game was always meant to be playing.
Stoner
Do you even play SM? Ever heard about such things as utility and cost efficiency? ASM spam was viable only on release and still rekt by OP Eldar, now there's no point to spend time and resources for unit which obviously underperforms in comparison to cheaper and more versatile one. Tac with flamer is far more effective than ASM in melee just wiping units in a blink. You can amass them without big damage to economy and guarantee fast tech, while even 1-2 ASM will delay and hurt your eco (consider cost+maintenance). If you ever play 1v1 and not noticing that literally every SM player spams tacs with occasional devs early game, and there's reason - they just don't have anything else, than that is truly being delusional.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
ASM arent meant to be spammed. They are interceptor units just like how banshees are shock infantry. Their duty is to tie up ranged squads. The backbone of the Adeptus astartes will always be the regular marines aka tactical marines supplemented by other specialised squads like the devastators etc
Stoner
Firstly please show me where I said that I want to SPAM ASM? Be very careful what you're implying. Secondly, are you saying tacs must be spammed and that's ok? My general point here is that I'm against of spam of any unit by any race, but with this patch SM are obviously encouraged to do so.
Now we have obvious N0ave's scout spam and meta tac spam, fantastic! So much diversity, so much complexity of builds...
Murador
getting a asm squad harassing points is quite good tbh with their jumps it's rly hard to catch them
Stoner
Land Speeder...
DmonBlu
Stop smoking that weed. ASM is a flanker/engager NOT a front line unit. U build a bunch of tacs and mixed in a few specialists like ASM to disrupt their front line and give u a combat advantage. This is how its supposed to be played (if u r a DOW 1 player u should know what Im talking bout) NOT SPAMMING 1 unit and hope to magically win the game with no skill/strat/build related... Tacs is good in melee? Try 1 tac squad vs 1 banshee squad and see the result for urself. Tacs has better survibility? Plzz they melt in 2 seconds after gettin hit by a few stikkbombs which is so easy for ASM to dodge but so so hard for tacs (less u r ByuN and u r trolling
). Better disruption??? How the hell is this even possible? They r generalists/front line unit they CANNOT possibly disrupt better than ASM- a specialist unit... They cant engage, dont have any CCs and free get out of jail card like ASM... The best they can do is throw a grenade at the enemy but that can be easily dodged and requires a doctrine slot. About flamer, IIRC all u need to do is move forward to a side since the cone is soooo narrow. Yes that might put u in an unfavorable position but mass flamer isnt exactly a good strat especially vs Eldar as they can spam skimmers and completely roll over u (tacs with flamers r very slow and extremely easy to kite). The last update nerfed Tireless to oblivion so Irdk wut r even talkin bout. The rest of their doctrines r NOT OP or give them a significant advantage of any kinds. IMHO u r just whining instead of trying to improve ur skill (no spam 1 unit isnt a legit strat especially in high ranks) so Ill just leave u to urself 
Cataclawy
Relic forums killed my post, so i have to rewrite everything;
Here are some issues i currently have with the game and find worthy of a discussion and throw the ball around with. This is from the perspective of solely 1v1 games.
Whats up with Eldar being so ++heresy redacted++ shitty at scaling in this game compared to the other races?
Eldar is the only faction with no scaling faction mechanic! SM get better Chapter Standard and access to more drop pods, Orks get more Waagh!, scrap and late game
50% cheaper units. Eldar get.. single webway connection, which won't even work with actual Webway gate before T3 and dies if something sneezes on it.
Skimmers, which have low shields to begin with and take 100%!! more dmg from infantry AT does not scale at all with shield upgrades.
1 hp upgrades for Land Speeders gives them 15% additional HP.
3 shield upgrades for Fire Prisms give them 18% additional Shield.
Overall, this patch made the Early game feel really well, but now the late game problems is easier to see.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
I agree with the whirlwind and the true damage thing. It completely shreds wraith units when its meant to counter normal armour ( description in game). Also, what is the purpose of the wraithblade? To fight predators which can easily kite it, to take out deff dreads and other walkers?
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
SM do not have too many specialised units like the eldar. The tactical marines were meant to fit most roles and scale with upgrades, So you can tacs with plasma, combined with tacs with bolters etc to deal with different enemy squads. Yes, tacs are your main infantry unit and you choose the upgrade path for each squad. You get other support squads to deal with meanacing units) ASM for reapers, scout to lay traps etc, snipers to kill builders, devastators when you want more fire power or need to take out buildings but for the most part tacs are your go to unit. The eldar are meant to be the counter specialist ( different aspect shrines).
frumpylumps
I apologize if came across as condescending. I realize balancing a game like this is an extremely difficult task.
Let me clarify. I'm not saying that some Kommando bomb damage nerf wasn't warranted. However, given the extreme set up requirements, don't you think 600 true damage is very weak and not punishing enough? What is not valid about the things other posters have said? When your opponent has kommando, you should just expect them to be waiting for you to make the mistake of pushing into one of their points without detection. This is something that has counterplay that just isn't being used. Don't you agree? I'd like to point out that It only takes 3 DA grenades to have the same effect on nobz. Additionally, once it happens to you, are you likely or unlikely to make the same mistake twice?
Of course, this is my opinion, but the reason I feel that this balance team doesn't know what they are doing doesn't stem from a single incident, but from several of them. Take for instance how Eldar functioned when the game released. Teleporting workers. How did they not see the issues with this? Game changing doctrines removed.
There were players on the ladder with upwards of 100+ wins in a row by abusing the imbalances and this went on for over a month. When we finally did get patch, it ignored the most OP elite in the game, which everyone who actually played the game knew was Kyre. A large number of buffs/nerfs are huge percentile changes, not small increments that we would expect with a game with good relative balance. I understand that sometimes what happens is that after release the original balance team often goes on to work on other projects while the rookies are left the balance the game with the help of guidance from a fraction of that group and I have to wonder if this is the case.
From what I can tell, there have been more complaints about stikkbombs recently, and this has become the latest rally cry against orks opponents. I'm not saying stikkbombs did or didn't need a nerf, but don't you think that a large part of the complaining is due to the fact that people just aren't dodging them? They have a 50% smaller AOE than other grenades and there are much fewer of them to deal with in the early game because they require scrap upgrades. What is the real issue here?
A flamer suddenly appearing on one of your opponents tacticals and torching your boyz without anywarning isn't a thing that a lot of people on the forums experience, apparently, but how is this fair?
Am I really so lacking in objectivity?
Strongly feel Relic is being influence way too much by a small community that is easily influenced. Every popular caster of DoW3 seems to have an Eldar bias, and as someone who used to subscribe to gomtV to watch koreans play starcraft, there are way too many mistakes and things these guys aren't doing that make them not entirely credible when they complain about balance.
I wish we could have the community update thread regarding this patch so we can see who complained about Kommando because i'm pretty sure it was a popular caster, and surely enough that was the only change to the patch.
The pros don't have all the answers either and are often biasd themselves, as blizzard can tell you. You might be surprised at the number of korean pro SC2 players who claim their faction is the weakest.
In my view, forums have a disproportionate number of discontents who overwhelmingly tend to be bad players and who will rally behind a cause which they believe will resolve their problems. This gets repeated so much that the devs start to believe it. One thing I've learned in my years as a gamer is that the devs need to stick with their vision of the game and be extremely wary against reacting to popular forum complaints. I've seen it destroy games before, as in the sad case of Darkfall Online