Time to nerf more of the one click army wipe abilities?

Bersercker

After Relic nerfed the trukk suicide stormboy doctrine and shoota nades the games against orks became much more enjoyable so why not do the same for space marines and eldar?
You can still wipe half the opponents army with little to no effort using stuff like tactical flamer, death storm droppod, and falcon.

I propose to nerf the dps on tactical flamer and death storm droppod by about 50%. They would still wipe squads left and right but the opposing player might actually have a chance to react and save some of them. Falcon could use a nerf to 75% of it current dps i think, cause it still has to be able to deal with small number of anti vehicle squads.
Alternatively nerfing the falcon dps by about 50% and increasing its range to something similar to predator might also be a good idea.

I'd also be happy if Relic nerfed wierdboy, Jonah, Macha, kommando nob etc, but it might be too early for that and they are kidna balanced against each other right now.

Thoughts?

jonoliveira12

I hope they do not nerf Macha, she is the only way Eldar can deal with Devastators, Lootas, and Scout/Scout Sniper spam.

vindicarex

I'd rather see Flamers cost reduced as well as DPS reduction (and maybe lower CD a bit too) - they go from squad nuking tool to area-denial tool.

Falcons have high DPS to be sure - but fall pretty quickly to anti-tank. If it does receive DPS nerf, it needs more shield or more anti-tank power to compensate. It's really just the splash damage on it that makes it really murderous vs infantry so just nerf splash damage.

And Deathstorms are indeed strong, but I think nerfing them would be too harsh. You do pay quite a bit of money for what's essentially a high DPS turret. I think it's in a good spot now as it dies very fast to anything with armor-piercing damage. I often find that it's safer to just build squads because, yes a deathstorm can get a lot of kills if the enemy stays in and doesn't kill it, but it can also be nullified quite easily.

Most of the 3-point elites have been getting toned down because they are really good at squad wiping too early in the game (although they still have to be strong to some extent) and I think most are in a good spot. The weirdboy is the largest offender still due to mostly the 20-second CD scrapblast nuke - but fist of Gork is usually dodgeable.

Genferret

@vindicarex said:
I'd rather see Flamers cost reduced as well as DPS reduction (and maybe lower CD a bit too) - they go from squad nuking tool to area-denial tool.

Falcons have high DPS to be sure - but fall pretty quickly to anti-tank. If it does receive DPS nerf, it needs more shield or more anti-tank power to compensate. It's really just the splash damage on it that makes it really murderous vs infantry so just nerf splash damage.

And Deathstorms are indeed strong, but I think nerfing them would be too harsh. You do pay quite a bit of money for what's essentially a high DPS turret. I think it's in a good spot now as it dies very fast to anything with armor-piercing damage. I often find that it's safer to just build squads because, yes a deathstorm can get a lot of kills if the enemy stays in and doesn't kill it, but it can also be nullified quite easily.

Most of the 3-point elites have been getting toned down because they are really good at squad wiping too early in the game (although they still have to be strong to some extent) and I think most are in a good spot. The weirdboy is the largest offender still due to mostly the 20-second CD scrapblast nuke - but fist of Gork is usually dodgeable.

I'm just waiting for more Ork players to discover that Weirdboy can teleport while holding on to the rock storm. So drop rock storm safely in the Ork Waaaagh banner territory that is an impenetrable fortress, have the Weirdboy pick it up and hold on to it, and then use his teleport when it's near going off to teleport him with the rock storm right in the middle of the enemy's unsuspecting army.

Bersercker

@vindicarex said:
I'd rather see Flamers cost reduced as well as DPS reduction (and maybe lower CD a bit too) - they go from squad nuking tool to area-denial tool.

Not sure about cost. But if they get changed to "run away or lose whole squads" from "run away and lose whole squads anyway" it would be still pretty powerful.

Falcons have high DPS to be sure - but fall pretty quickly to anti-tank. If it does receive DPS nerf, it needs more shield or more anti-tank power to compensate. It's really just the splash damage on it that makes it really murderous vs infantry so just nerf splash damage.

And Deathstorms are indeed strong, but I think nerfing them would be too harsh. You do pay quite a bit of money for what's essentially a high DPS turret. I think it's in a good spot now as it dies very fast to anything with armor-piercing damage. I often find that it's safer to just build squads because, yes a deathstorm can get a lot of kills if the enemy stays in and doesn't kill it, but it can also be nullified quite easily.

Yeah, both of these ar easily dealt with by sufficient number of anti-tank squads. But its their strength when the opponent doesn't have sufficient anti-tank (or its killed by elites\tied up in melee etc) that is the problem imo. Maybe a health increase(or some av damage for falcon) would be in order to compensate for damage decrease so that falcons and deathstorm drop pods scale better into the lategame.

Btw if Relic fixes Eldar vehicle durability upgrade falcons might even become OP with their current damage & AoE.

@jonoliveira12 said:
I hope they do not nerf Macha, she is the only way Eldar can deal with Devastators, Lootas, and Scout/Scout Sniper spam.

Imo, it would be better if the Eldar didn't require Macha(or at least scorpions) for this. Maybe nerfing Macha and then finding out that Eldar are totally screwed without her AoE blast is needed for this to change.

jonoliveira12

@Bersercker said:

@vindicarex said:
I'd rather see Flamers cost reduced as well as DPS reduction (and maybe lower CD a bit too) - they go from squad nuking tool to area-denial tool.

Not sure about cost. But if they get changed to "run away or lose whole squads" from "run away and lose whole squads anyway" it would be still pretty powerful.

Falcons have high DPS to be sure - but fall pretty quickly to anti-tank. If it does receive DPS nerf, it needs more shield or more anti-tank power to compensate. It's really just the splash damage on it that makes it really murderous vs infantry so just nerf splash damage.

And Deathstorms are indeed strong, but I think nerfing them would be too harsh. You do pay quite a bit of money for what's essentially a high DPS turret. I think it's in a good spot now as it dies very fast to anything with armor-piercing damage. I often find that it's safer to just build squads because, yes a deathstorm can get a lot of kills if the enemy stays in and doesn't kill it, but it can also be nullified quite easily.

Yeah, both of these ar easily dealt with by sufficient number of anti-tank squads. But its their strength when the opponent doesn't have sufficient anti-tank (or its killed by elites\tied up in melee etc) that is the problem imo. Maybe a health increase(or some av damage for falcon) would be in order to compensate for damage decrease so that falcons and deathstorm drop pods scale better into the lategame.

Btw if Relic fixes Eldar vehicle durability upgrade falcons might even become OP with their current damage & AoE.

@jonoliveira12 said:
I hope they do not nerf Macha, she is the only way Eldar can deal with Devastators, Lootas, and Scout/Scout Sniper spam.

Imo, it would be better if the Eldar didn't require Macha(or at least scorpions) for this. Maybe nerfing Macha and then finding out that Eldar are totally screwed without her AoE blast is needed for this to change.

Eldar have no CC outside of Macha for the early game. People do not even take Scorpions so much anymore, due to how poorly they scale, and how little they actually do to Devastators/Lootas on the backline.

Gosu

I agree that elites should be toned down more. overall dmg of units is so high, they should get nerfed.
It's so frustrating when my squads get wiped instantly. squads should get killed by reasonable fight.

nerf elites, flamers, super ability, AOE skills, etc.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Gosu said:
I agree that elites should be toned down more. overall dmg of units is so high, they should get nerfed.
It's so frustrating when my squads get wiped instantly. squads should get killed by reasonable fight.

nerf elites, flamers, super ability, AOE skills, etc.

Agree to making stuff a little less lethal but we dont want the game to become too slow.

Stoner

Yes, all Elites need some hard nerfs. On 2pts example: Deathwatch should be slightly stronger than Tac squad but with upgrade utilities, Scorps should be slightly stronger than Banshees but with Hunt and short jump, Stromboyz shouldn't kill half of T1 army or buildings with their suicides, long stun is punishing enough, plus you reinforce member FOR FREE. I'm absolutely sure that if all Elites will be toned down, game will be FAR more enjoyable.

Bersercker

@Stoner said:
Yes, all Elites need some hard nerfs. On 2pts example: Deathwatch should be slightly stronger than Tac squad but with upgrade utilities, Scorps should be slightly stronger than Banshees but with Hunt and short jump, Stromboyz shouldn't kill half of T1 army or buildings with their suicides, long stun is punishing enough, plus you reinforce member FOR FREE. I'm absolutely sure that if all Elites will be toned down, game will be FAR more enjoyable.

+1. Right now it feels unfair. Like its pretty common for me to lose a few fights resulting in opponent having 1.5 - 2 times bigger army and then i wipe a few of his squads with AoE abilities (cause ofc he is gonna lose more to AoE due to having bigger army) and the game is even again.

Bersercker

Btw just killed 10(ten) full hp squads of ork lootaz and tank bustaz with one deathstorm droppod i accidentially ordered. Cmon Relic, its just broken. (Ofc if the ork player immediately focused it down he probably would have lost only half hp on these squads but still).

Katitof

@Bersercker said:
Btw just killed 10(ten) full hp squads of ork lootaz and tank bustaz with one deathstorm droppod i accidentially ordered. Cmon Relic, its just broken. (Ofc if the ork player immediately focused it down he probably would have lost only half hp on these squads but still).

You dropped it in the middle of army which had AT weapons within it.
Its 100% ork failure here, nothing to do with drop pod.