@GiggleHz said:
NOPE, and NOPE
because i doubt they are willing to invest the time and money in a game that has already flopped..at this point it is a lost cause it would took vast and dramatic core changes to the game to make it what ppl wanted and frankly rightly expected from a DOW game.
Im happy some ppl seem to enjoy it however the numbers dont lie, and this game has hemorrhaged players at an incredible rate since day 1....hate to beat a dead horse but they kinda sort of betrayed the ppl who were wanting this game in an attempt to appeal to what they thought would be a larger audience....i suppose i cant blame them, they are a company after all, but the removal of Sync Kills....a quintessential feature of DOW...petty or not, it was extremely cool and defining of a DOW game....just gone...Not to mention the incredibly shallow lane gameplay the absence of environmental cover...i dont know wtf they were thinking on that one...this Relic for god's sake, they practically invented that system and were masters at it...what genius thought magical bubbles in what is supposed to be a gritty 40k game was a better system then actual realistic environmental cover...
And the aesthetics? seriously can anyone argue that this doesnt look like a blizzard game...it looks more blizzard than starcraft 2 does.....Sorry if im ranting but i HIGHLY doubt they are willing to dump the money and time into a game that has already put a bad taste in their gamers mouths....the most we can hope for is some small changes, and we best enjoy them because i promise you after this debacle of a game....we wont see a DOW4.
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
Even with such features like retreat and sync kills, that would be still not the game people want.
The DOW3 gameplay was since presentation questionable and for everybody the reaction was predictable.
This 3 points do really question the road the game did take.
-why wasn't Annihilation Mod announced earlier ? People don't see him as planned, but rather as hot fix.
-why wasn't the release date delayed ? People see the game as rushed to release, not done to release.
-why wasn't the beta longer ? People did get maybe wrong impression on the game ?
So far there have been in my opinion too lot of bad choices.
Especially that DOW3 still doesn't have an own unit and strategy guide like SC2.
Like this where you have all the unit stats and explanation what he is for and how to counter him. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/hydralisk
I am afraid the game did reach point of no return.
@StarSauron There r actually. Look on Gamereplays.org I saw loads of stragety guides up there. The wiki is unfinished since the patches r running wild atm so I think it would be better if I waited till the game its fullly balanced. No point in writing stats if they would be changed a week later right ?
I don't think there's any real way of Relic reconfiguring the game to appease people who fundamentally dislike the gameplay. The best thing they can do is add more content and features.
DoW2 received just as much hate on release and I think once people get tired of hating the game and more people join the community it will stabilize at a healthy size.
DoW1 babbies will continue to be mad that the sequels aren't identical copies to the original, even though DoW3 is the closest they could ever hope to get.
@Chriskovo said:
I hope the manager of this process gets fired, the game is so off the mark that it may bring down Relic itself. Its like Command and Conquer 4 all over again.
While I agree that the game wildly misses the mark, I don't think it's ever fair to call on someone to get "fired" for it. We have no idea how the design process looked. It might have just been some Probst-esque SEGA suit yelling "MOBA it up!" and Relic meekly complying. or it might have been a design-by-committee where everyone's ideas were implemented and there wasn't a clear direction. Also, yeah, it could have just been one or two guys designing in an echo-chamber and high-fiving each other's greatness the whole way. We don't know though, so it's kind of a pointless and just mean-spirited comment to make.
@Dullahan said:
DoW2 received just as much hate on release and I think once people get tired of hating the game and more people join the community it will stabilize at a healthy size.
You are mistaking something, DOW2 was doubted, DOW3 is hated.
@Chriskovo said:
I hope the manager of this process gets fired, the game is so off the mark that it may bring down Relic itself. Its like Command and Conquer 4 all over again.
While I agree that the game wildly misses the mark, I don't think it's ever fair to call on someone to get "fired" for it. We have no idea how the design process looked. It might have just been some Probst-esque SEGA suit yelling "MOBA it up!" and Relic meekly complying. or it might have been a design-by-committee where everyone's ideas were implemented and there wasn't a clear direction. Also, yeah, it could have just been one or two guys designing in an echo-chamber and high-fiving each other's greatness the whole way. We don't know though, so it's kind of a pointless and just mean-spirited comment to make.
Well by C&C series for example C&C4 was announced as the end of series like from Start on and that they were forced to do it so bad.
And most interestingly were the commentaries from former workers on the actual company structure.
I mean it's not a secret Electronic Arts is the worst publisher, they even managed to Kill Deas Space franchise.
But even in such hardcore conditions,
you had a lot people who were advocating what they were doing.
Problem is, if there is a bad Idea, you should be able to fix and admit it. (first fix , than admit)
@GiggleHz said:
NOPE, and NOPE
because i doubt they are willing to invest the time and money in a game that has already flopped..at this point it is a lost cause it would took vast and dramatic core changes to the game to make it what ppl wanted and frankly rightly expected from a DOW game.
Im happy some ppl seem to enjoy it however the numbers dont lie, and this game has hemorrhaged players at an incredible rate since day 1....hate to beat a dead horse but they kinda sort of betrayed the ppl who were wanting this game in an attempt to appeal to what they thought would be a larger audience....i suppose i cant blame them, they are a company after all, but the removal of Sync Kills....a quintessential feature of DOW...petty or not, it was extremely cool and defining of a DOW game....just gone...Not to mention the incredibly shallow lane gameplay the absence of environmental cover...i dont know wtf they were thinking on that one...this Relic for god's sake, they practically invented that system and were masters at it...what genius thought magical bubbles in what is supposed to be a gritty 40k game was a better system then actual realistic environmental cover...
And the aesthetics? seriously can anyone argue that this doesnt look like a blizzard game...it looks more blizzard than starcraft 2 does.....Sorry if im ranting but i HIGHLY doubt they are willing to dump the money and time into a game that has already put a bad taste in their gamers mouths....the most we can hope for is some small changes, and we best enjoy them because i promise you after this debacle of a game....we wont see a DOW4.
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
I will respect any opinion anyone has of this game, but im sorry there is NO WAY the graphics are better than DOW2's
@GiggleHz said:
NOPE, and NOPE
because i doubt they are willing to invest the time and money in a game that has already flopped..at this point it is a lost cause it would took vast and dramatic core changes to the game to make it what ppl wanted and frankly rightly expected from a DOW game.
Im happy some ppl seem to enjoy it however the numbers dont lie, and this game has hemorrhaged players at an incredible rate since day 1....hate to beat a dead horse but they kinda sort of betrayed the ppl who were wanting this game in an attempt to appeal to what they thought would be a larger audience....i suppose i cant blame them, they are a company after all, but the removal of Sync Kills....a quintessential feature of DOW...petty or not, it was extremely cool and defining of a DOW game....just gone...Not to mention the incredibly shallow lane gameplay the absence of environmental cover...i dont know wtf they were thinking on that one...this Relic for god's sake, they practically invented that system and were masters at it...what genius thought magical bubbles in what is supposed to be a gritty 40k game was a better system then actual realistic environmental cover...
And the aesthetics? seriously can anyone argue that this doesnt look like a blizzard game...it looks more blizzard than starcraft 2 does.....Sorry if im ranting but i HIGHLY doubt they are willing to dump the money and time into a game that has already put a bad taste in their gamers mouths....the most we can hope for is some small changes, and we best enjoy them because i promise you after this debacle of a game....we wont see a DOW4.
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
I will respect any opinion anyone has of this game, but im sorry there is NO WAY the graphics are better than DOW2's
Plugging old content, but I made a comprehensive thread on this:
@GiggleHz said:
NOPE, and NOPE
because i doubt they are willing to invest the time and money in a game that has already flopped..at this point it is a lost cause it would took vast and dramatic core changes to the game to make it what ppl wanted and frankly rightly expected from a DOW game.
Im happy some ppl seem to enjoy it however the numbers dont lie, and this game has hemorrhaged players at an incredible rate since day 1....hate to beat a dead horse but they kinda sort of betrayed the ppl who were wanting this game in an attempt to appeal to what they thought would be a larger audience....i suppose i cant blame them, they are a company after all, but the removal of Sync Kills....a quintessential feature of DOW...petty or not, it was extremely cool and defining of a DOW game....just gone...Not to mention the incredibly shallow lane gameplay the absence of environmental cover...i dont know wtf they were thinking on that one...this Relic for god's sake, they practically invented that system and were masters at it...what genius thought magical bubbles in what is supposed to be a gritty 40k game was a better system then actual realistic environmental cover...
And the aesthetics? seriously can anyone argue that this doesnt look like a blizzard game...it looks more blizzard than starcraft 2 does.....Sorry if im ranting but i HIGHLY doubt they are willing to dump the money and time into a game that has already put a bad taste in their gamers mouths....the most we can hope for is some small changes, and we best enjoy them because i promise you after this debacle of a game....we wont see a DOW4.
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
I will respect any opinion anyone has of this game, but im sorry there is NO WAY the graphics are better than DOW2's
Plugging old content, but I made a comprehensive thread on this:
You can prefer whichever game's graphics you like. But on a technical level, DoW III's are superior, hands-down.
perhaps on a technical level they are 'superior' in terms of....polygons or whatever but man the cartoony aesthetic just absolutely murders the 40k vibe...personal opinion...yah of course but man...may be its just me but i am extremely put off by the cartoony look.
@Chriskovo said:
The base game is the problem. They tooled it for their moba esk heros and game mode and its not adapting well to the annihilation mode. Were proably not hearing from Relic now because they don't know where to go from here. They are locked in the closet because of the game desing choices and cant fix it. I hope the manager of this process gets fired, the game is so off the mark that it may bring down Relic itself. Its like Command and Conquer 4 all over again.
I don't see here someones fault, I just see another victim of "Collective intelligence".
A lot of people like Starcraft2, but don't understand how to make it.
A lot of people like competitive RTS, but don't understand that most people will simply stay by Starcraft2.
A lot of people think RTS games should be simplified, but its exactly the problem.
A lot of people think RTS should try something innovative, but it was already for sure somewhere already done and will be in most cases judged as a bad rip off.
A lot of people think by RTS should be rush tactics, but don't realize how it does alienate RTS fans.
A lot of people think its modern by RTS games to have fundamentally different factions and it will be somehow always magically balanced.
But beside Starcraft2 it makes the gameplay worse and one sided.
A lot of people think modern games should be like Starcraft2, but don't understand that this franchise is already 22 years old and a lot people are meanwhile simply annoyed by it, but you don't have any real alternative beside it, so people play it because there is nothing else.
And yes its not easy, you have so much misguiding in the development.
Since Starcraft2 was announced 2007, RTS genre is dying,
almost every game was ever since corrupted.
Yes Relic RTS did stand as games that were doing their own thing, but I was more surprised how long it did take for Relic games to be corrupted this way too like by DOW3, than it did actually happen.
@Dullahan said:
DoW2 received just as much hate on release and I think once people get tired of hating the game and more people join the community it will stabilize at a healthy size.
You are mistaking something, DOW2 was doubted, DOW3 is hated.
No, I really am not. DoW2 was massively criticized for many of its gameplay changes. Removal of base building, small army sizes, punishing micro and awful game balance. People also complained about the same cover system people are clamouring for now, for whatever reason.
There was also massive issues with connectivity, matchmaking, features (replay viewer, performance, lack of ingame chat, lack of useful tooltips, lack of tutorial, horrible skirmish AI) and visual detail. (Mostly comparisons to CoH) This post has a great summary of many issues at release:
@Dullahan said:
DoW2 received just as much hate on release and I think once people get tired of hating the game and more people join the community it will stabilize at a healthy size.
You are mistaking something, DOW2 was doubted, DOW3 is hated.
No, I really am not. DoW2 was massively criticized for many of its gameplay changes. Removal of base building, small army sizes, punishing micro and awful game balance. People also complained about the same cover system people are clamouring for now, for whatever reason.
There was also massive issues with connectivity, matchmaking, features (replay viewer, performance, lack of ingame chat, lack of useful tooltips, lack of tutorial, horrible skirmish AI) and visual detail. (Mostly comparisons to CoH) This post has a great summary of many issues at release:
DoW3 in comparison is a very solid package, just missing some key features (key configurations, obs mode, more maps)
DOW2 could rely on the company of heroes community.
Story mod was by the way pretty good tutorial.
And gameplay was self explaining, anti tank works vs anti tank, lol, anti trooper works vs anti trooper. And that's it.
Balance was pretty good if we look at competition, like Red Alert 3 or Supreme Commander 2.
And most important part in my opinion, it did stand out with own gameplay, as an own IP, of course not perfect, but you had an unique game. You don't have Aliens, heroes, melee and magic in Company of Heroes on in my opinion they did find a perfect niche for the game.
By the way , the big fear was to be too similar to Starcraft2.
And now by DOW3 I see this was totally legit.
For more than 7 years a lot of RTS players had to play Starctaft2, because there is nothing else out.
Beside Relics RTS the competition did die off pretty fast. So you simply had to come back, even if you can't stand it any more.
I did buy and play instant any RTS, just to play in multiplayer something else than Starcraft2.
C&C died, I did go to Starctaft2, was after some time bored.
Supreme Commander 2 died , I had to go back to SC2. till next game.
RUSE died, I had to go back to SC2. I had to go back to SC2. till next RTS game.
Stronghold Crusader II died, I had to go back to SC2.
Act of Aggression died, I had to go back to SC2.
Etherium died, I had to go back to SC2.
Grey Goo died, I had to go back to SC2.
Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak, I had to go back to SC2.
8-Bit Armies died(tiers , I truly loved it, till it was slowly corrupted with Starcraft), I had to go back to SC2.
Halo Wars (Steam version) died, I had once again to crawl back to Starctaft 2.
And now, after more than 7 years of constant disappointments,
First match with Eldar and you see there this Zerg speed mechanics and than this armour and damage upgrades 1to1 from Starcraft2.
Relic does present us, their own and unique, but totally ripped off version of Starcraft2.
That was for me the final straw.
Even though few ideas might have been brought from SC2, this game doesn't feel like playing SC2 at all.
I never enjoyed SC2 that much in 1v1, but this game I do. SC2 is not a milestone RTS in my book, even though it's a good game. As for atmosphere, sound design, graphics, pace of gameplay, faction mechanics, resource management and to add elites and doctrines, DoW 3 has surpassed SC2 in my eyes.
...
I still see people bashing DoW 3, when I thought they would have left it alone at this point. To these people I say leave others alone enjoying DoW 3 and go back to DoW 2 or whatever game you like, because nobody cares if you hate this and I have no slightest interest to play the earlier DoW titles. Please stop posting trash.
If you are constantly dissapointed with new RTS, that you go back to SC2, then maybe its time for you to retire from entire RTS genre? I think you should find another genre or hobby so you might feel enjoyment again.
The game can not be saved. It might get expanded through new content, but It will always be dow3.
Dow3 was the chance to return to dow1, but now with better engine and everything improved, with lots of stuff to be done and possibilities with each race just as one hell of a good RTS like dow1 demands. Lost opportunity, and looking at sale charts, franchise probably too. So yeah be innovate next time too Relic, that if you can of course.
What have you done really saddens me to a point you can not even imagine, both for you and the franchise future. I understand back in 2010 you wanted to do something "different" with dow2, but now you really tripped over with this bare bones hybrid of nothingness. Worse, you probably have just dragged the franchise into the abyss too, not just yourselves.
I guess the Chaos race will be released sooner or later as it seemed to be partially developed, as seen in campaign. I don't think that will be enough to lure more folks in though.
"go back to vDoW" is the exact opposite of "innovating", @Fernandito. You want the game to go back to something that it previously was; that's not innovation. So there's no need to be snide and challenge if Relic "can of course" (be innovative).
Don't twist out my post. Point made was precisely to quit being innovative and return to the old good stuff dow1 was, as that's why dow2 was already there; to be..., "innovative", and that only as long as you forget of coh of course, because we all know what dow2 was.
The second point made was that, if dow3 means being innovative too, then by all means be not next time. That, if there is to be a next time after a failure of such epic proportions.
This is so sad. After all these years, and this is all we get. Indeed, talent is no longer the most important requirement when it comes to game development. It's all just about the budget you're given.
I think it's fundamentally bad progress in games in general if there will be no mechanical changes. Who wants to play the same thing with just better graphics, when you are always able to play the old game some more. What is the point?
...
Die hard DoW fans seem not to understand that many people don't like or don't want to play anymore DoW 1 and 2. I could have always bought DoW 2 before in my life, but it is not a kind of game I would enjoy. DoW 1 seems even less fun, since it misses tactical thinking all together, but DoW 3 sparked my intrest when I looked at it.
This is truly in the end just another silly mass nostalgia case, nothing more, nothing less and I'm talking about the whole review propaganda and whining all over the internet. deep facepalm
DoW 3 is improvement in the sense how RTS works, like it or not, casual experiences aside.
@SupremeSkill said:
I think it's fundamentally bad progress in games in general if there will be no mechanical changes.
You're taking my desire of a now a days dow1 game to little pleasant extremes. Of course there had been changes in the game I would have liked dow3 to be.
Who wants to play the same thing with just better graphics when you are always able to play the old game some more.
I presume you know of a franchise called Starcraft. Series that has been alive and played massively for twenty years now, and which has been basically the same since '98. Problem?. None of course, but pretty much the opposite.
What is the point?
I don't know. To have an incredible nice game like dow1 was, but now more modern, with a different engine; lots of new things to do etc but respecting the RTS game bases?. What's the point in a cataclysmic failure like dow3?.
Die hard DoW fans seem not to understand that many people don't like or don't want to play anymore DoW 1 and 2.
Oh yeah. Active number of players currently playing dow1, even 2, seem to confirm your respectable theory.
DoW 1 seems even less fun, since it misses tactical thinking all together,
This makes me wonder, not only whether or not you know what you are actually talking about but also If you have ever played dow1.
This is truly in the end just another silly mass nostalgia case, nothing more, nothing less and I'm talking about the whole review propaganda and whining all over the internet. deep facepalm
I think I've heard that one before.
DoW 3 is improvement in the sense how RTS works, like it or not, casual experiences aside.
If that's your perception of what actual improvement means.., the series to be on the verge of extinction little after the very first month of release?. Quite an improvement, indeed.
@SupremeSkill said: @Fernandito
I think it's fundamentally bad progress in games in general if there will be no mechanical changes. Who wants to play the same thing with just better graphics, when you are always able to play the old game some more. What is the point?
Ask all of the people who are still playing some version of Counter Strike, Call of Duty, EA Sports games, Total War, Mario Bros etc... If the current model is working, sometimes you just need to tweak, update and add a few new things to keep it fresh.
@SupremeSkill said:
Die hard DoW fans seem not to understand that many people don't like or don't want to play anymore DoW 1 and 2.
DoW III fans don't seem to understand that almost nobody wants to play DoW III.
@SupremeSkill said:
This is truly in the end just another silly mass nostalgia case, nothing more, nothing less and I'm talking about the whole review propaganda and whining all over the internet. deep facepalm
This comment is a rather pathetic example of confirmation bias. It's a lame excuse for someone seeking validation for their opinion and it has no more merit than your typical fanboi apologist vs troll hater argument.
@SupremeSkill said:
DoW 3 is improvement in the sense how RTS works, like it or not, casual experiences aside.
More of a divergence than an improvement, lol. I'll agree that the experience Relic delivered is pretty refined. The problem is that it's not an experience that the overwhelming majority of DoW fans or potential RTS players are remotely interested in.
@GiggleHz said:
NOPE, and NOPE
because i doubt they are willing to invest the time and money in a game that has already flopped..at this point it is a lost cause it would took vast and dramatic core changes to the game to make it what ppl wanted and frankly rightly expected from a DOW game.
Im happy some ppl seem to enjoy it however the numbers dont lie, and this game has hemorrhaged players at an incredible rate since day 1....hate to beat a dead horse but they kinda sort of betrayed the ppl who were wanting this game in an attempt to appeal to what they thought would be a larger audience....i suppose i cant blame them, they are a company after all, but the removal of Sync Kills....a quintessential feature of DOW...petty or not, it was extremely cool and defining of a DOW game....just gone...Not to mention the incredibly shallow lane gameplay the absence of environmental cover...i dont know wtf they were thinking on that one...this Relic for god's sake, they practically invented that system and were masters at it...what genius thought magical bubbles in what is supposed to be a gritty 40k game was a better system then actual realistic environmental cover...
And the aesthetics? seriously can anyone argue that this doesnt look like a blizzard game...it looks more blizzard than starcraft 2 does.....Sorry if im ranting but i HIGHLY doubt they are willing to dump the money and time into a game that has already put a bad taste in their gamers mouths....the most we can hope for is some small changes, and we best enjoy them because i promise you after this debacle of a game....we wont see a DOW4.
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
I will respect any opinion anyone has of this game, but im sorry there is NO WAY the graphics are better than DOW2's
Plugging old content, but I made a comprehensive thread on this:
You can prefer whichever game's graphics you like. But on a technical level, DoW III's are superior, hands-down.
perhaps on a technical level they are 'superior' in terms of....polygons or whatever but man the cartoony aesthetic just absolutely murders the 40k vibe...personal opinion...yah of course but man...may be its just me but i am extremely put off by the cartoony look.
That "cartoony aesthetic" is exactly how TT is.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but GW themselves is killing "grimdark" for years now, they are increasing reach and accessibility, even god ++heresy redacted++ daemonettes got bras.
@Fernandito said:
Don't twist out my post. Point made was precisely to quit being innovative and return to the old good stuff dow1 was, as that's why dow2 was already there; to be..., "innovative", and that only as long as you forget of coh of course, because we all know what dow2 was.
The second point made was that, if dow3 means being innovative too, then by all means be not next time. That, if there is to be a next time after a failure of such epic proportions.
This is so sad. After all these years, and this is all we get. Indeed, talent is no longer the most important requirement when it comes to game development. It's all just about the budget you're given.
I must've misunderstood you when you said "be innovative next time", sorry. I understand that English might not be everyone's first language, or simply mistakes can be made when making posts.
You want Relic to stop being innovative?
Then I will forever disagree. I think it's their biggest strength. If Relic weren't as innovative as they were, I'd never have gotten Dawn of War II, arguably my favourite video game. I prefer it to DoW III, even though I still like (and enjoy) DoW III. I'm not a huge classical RTS fan anymore; I spent hundreds of hours in Dawn of War, but that kind of gameplay doesn't grab me anymore. I backed Planetary Annihilation and I spent most of my time managing the System Builder or the single-player mode they introduced. I quickly got bored of how it made you fight.
I can still play Dawn of War II. I love it. I love that they brought Commanders (and heroes) through to DoW III. That's probably one of my favourite things about this new title.
So you see. I'm a fan of the franchise. I've played it since its inception. I'm not a "new" fan, or a "young" fan, and I would much rather Relic continue to innovate, to try new things. Because if you don't try new things, you will eventually falter. You can't cater solely to a niche when selling a product, because that niche will reduce over time. People get older, they lose the time to play video games so much, and so on. You have to find ways to bring fresh life to the niche, to bring new players in. This is different from making it appealing to as many people as possible, of course.
For example, I really don't think DoW III is aimed at MOBA players at all - there's too much RTS macro and unit micro required (micro-intensive heroes don't often do well in MOBAs, they require high skill to be executed successfully and this makes it very hard to balance them against simpler, stronger hero designs). I think DoW III is an attempt to blend Relic's DoW titles into a modern RTS, and I applaud them for it.
edited for spelling mistakes and clarity on catering to a niche
Menu
Comments
CANNED_F3TUS
DoW 3 graphics are far better than DoW 1 2 and sc 2 combined. So i will just leave it at that.
Sync kills sucked sadly so yes we are beating a gangrenous horse that didnt have skin to begin with.
I would like to see sync kills make a return when relic has figured out how to not make them SUCK and screw up gameplay.
Also DoW 3 hasnt flopped either they made decent sales and Sega usually loves adding on DLC and expansions for games. So it really only can grow especially if they release more PVE and PVP stuff. Kids are going to eat Coop mode up like flies eat ++heresy redacted++.
AngelofDeth
''Do you believe in DoW3 future?'' Sounds like a cult religion.
StarSauron
Even with such features like retreat and sync kills, that would be still not the game people want.
The DOW3 gameplay was since presentation questionable and for everybody the reaction was predictable.
This 3 points do really question the road the game did take.
-why wasn't Annihilation Mod announced earlier ? People don't see him as planned, but rather as hot fix.
-why wasn't the release date delayed ? People see the game as rushed to release, not done to release.
-why wasn't the beta longer ? People did get maybe wrong impression on the game ?
So far there have been in my opinion too lot of bad choices.
Especially that DOW3 still doesn't have an own unit and strategy guide like SC2.
Like this where you have all the unit stats and explanation what he is for and how to counter him.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/hydralisk
I am afraid the game did reach point of no return.
DmonBlu
@StarSauron There r actually. Look on Gamereplays.org I saw loads of stragety guides up there. The wiki is unfinished since the patches r running wild atm so I think it would be better if I waited till the game its fullly balanced. No point in writing stats if they would be changed a week later right ?
Dullahan
I think the game is great.
I don't think there's any real way of Relic reconfiguring the game to appease people who fundamentally dislike the gameplay. The best thing they can do is add more content and features.
DoW2 received just as much hate on release and I think once people get tired of hating the game and more people join the community it will stabilize at a healthy size.
DoW1 babbies will continue to be mad that the sequels aren't identical copies to the original, even though DoW3 is the closest they could ever hope to get.
Amoc
While I agree that the game wildly misses the mark, I don't think it's ever fair to call on someone to get "fired" for it. We have no idea how the design process looked. It might have just been some Probst-esque SEGA suit yelling "MOBA it up!" and Relic meekly complying. or it might have been a design-by-committee where everyone's ideas were implemented and there wasn't a clear direction. Also, yeah, it could have just been one or two guys designing in an echo-chamber and high-fiving each other's greatness the whole way. We don't know though, so it's kind of a pointless and just mean-spirited comment to make.
StarSauron
You are mistaking something, DOW2 was doubted, DOW3 is hated.
Well by C&C series for example C&C4 was announced as the end of series like from Start on and that they were forced to do it so bad.
And most interestingly were the commentaries from former workers on the actual company structure.
I mean it's not a secret Electronic Arts is the worst publisher, they even managed to Kill Deas Space franchise.
But even in such hardcore conditions,
you had a lot people who were advocating what they were doing.
Problem is, if there is a bad Idea, you should be able to fix and admit it. (first fix , than admit)
GiggleHz
I will respect any opinion anyone has of this game, but im sorry there is NO WAY the graphics are better than DOW2's
Gorb
Plugging old content, but I made a comprehensive thread on this:
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/13806/dow-ii-vs-dow-iii-graphics-comparison
tl;dr:
You can prefer whichever game's graphics you like. But on a technical level, DoW III's are superior, hands-down.
GiggleHz
perhaps on a technical level they are 'superior' in terms of....polygons or whatever but man the cartoony aesthetic just absolutely murders the 40k vibe...personal opinion...yah of course but man...may be its just me but i am extremely put off by the cartoony look.
StarSauron
I don't see here someones fault, I just see another victim of "Collective intelligence".
A lot of people like Starcraft2, but don't understand how to make it.
A lot of people like competitive RTS, but don't understand that most people will simply stay by Starcraft2.
A lot of people think RTS games should be simplified, but its exactly the problem.
A lot of people think RTS should try something innovative, but it was already for sure somewhere already done and will be in most cases judged as a bad rip off.
A lot of people think by RTS should be rush tactics, but don't realize how it does alienate RTS fans.
A lot of people think its modern by RTS games to have fundamentally different factions and it will be somehow always magically balanced.
But beside Starcraft2 it makes the gameplay worse and one sided.
A lot of people think modern games should be like Starcraft2, but don't understand that this franchise is already 22 years old and a lot people are meanwhile simply annoyed by it, but you don't have any real alternative beside it, so people play it because there is nothing else.
And yes its not easy, you have so much misguiding in the development.
Since Starcraft2 was announced 2007, RTS genre is dying,
almost every game was ever since corrupted.
Yes Relic RTS did stand as games that were doing their own thing, but I was more surprised how long it did take for Relic games to be corrupted this way too like by DOW3, than it did actually happen.
Dullahan
No, I really am not. DoW2 was massively criticized for many of its gameplay changes. Removal of base building, small army sizes, punishing micro and awful game balance. People also complained about the same cover system people are clamouring for now, for whatever reason.
There was also massive issues with connectivity, matchmaking, features (replay viewer, performance, lack of ingame chat, lack of useful tooltips, lack of tutorial, horrible skirmish AI) and visual detail. (Mostly comparisons to CoH) This post has a great summary of many issues at release:
https://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=453842
DoW3 in comparison is a very solid package, just missing some key features (key configurations, obs mode, more maps)
Shampoo
Game died a more gruesome death than a guardsman taking a chainaxe to the chest, these updates are not doing anything to help bring players back.
StarSauron
DOW2 could rely on the company of heroes community.
Story mod was by the way pretty good tutorial.
And gameplay was self explaining, anti tank works vs anti tank, lol, anti trooper works vs anti trooper. And that's it.
Balance was pretty good if we look at competition, like Red Alert 3 or Supreme Commander 2.
And most important part in my opinion, it did stand out with own gameplay, as an own IP, of course not perfect, but you had an unique game. You don't have Aliens, heroes, melee and magic in Company of Heroes on in my opinion they did find a perfect niche for the game.
By the way , the big fear was to be too similar to Starcraft2.
And now by DOW3 I see this was totally legit.
For more than 7 years a lot of RTS players had to play Starctaft2, because there is nothing else out.
Beside Relics RTS the competition did die off pretty fast. So you simply had to come back, even if you can't stand it any more.
I did buy and play instant any RTS, just to play in multiplayer something else than Starcraft2.
C&C died, I did go to Starctaft2, was after some time bored.
Supreme Commander 2 died , I had to go back to SC2. till next game.
RUSE died, I had to go back to SC2. I had to go back to SC2. till next RTS game.
Stronghold Crusader II died, I had to go back to SC2.
Act of Aggression died, I had to go back to SC2.
Etherium died, I had to go back to SC2.
Grey Goo died, I had to go back to SC2.
Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak, I had to go back to SC2.
8-Bit Armies died(tiers , I truly loved it, till it was slowly corrupted with Starcraft), I had to go back to SC2.
Halo Wars (Steam version) died, I had once again to crawl back to Starctaft 2.
And now, after more than 7 years of constant disappointments,
First match with Eldar and you see there this Zerg speed mechanics and than this armour and damage upgrades 1to1 from Starcraft2.
Relic does present us, their own and unique, but totally ripped off version of Starcraft2.
That was for me the final straw.
SupremeSkill
@StarSauron
Even though few ideas might have been brought from SC2, this game doesn't feel like playing SC2 at all.
I never enjoyed SC2 that much in 1v1, but this game I do. SC2 is not a milestone RTS in my book, even though it's a good game. As for atmosphere, sound design, graphics, pace of gameplay, faction mechanics, resource management and to add elites and doctrines, DoW 3 has surpassed SC2 in my eyes.
...
I still see people bashing DoW 3, when I thought they would have left it alone at this point. To these people I say leave others alone enjoying DoW 3 and go back to DoW 2 or whatever game you like, because nobody cares if you hate this and I have no slightest interest to play the earlier DoW titles. Please stop posting trash.
Draconix
@StarSauron,
If you are constantly dissapointed with new RTS, that you go back to SC2, then maybe its time for you to retire from entire RTS genre? I think you should find another genre or hobby so you might feel enjoyment again.
Fernandito
The game can not be saved. It might get expanded through new content, but It will always be dow3.
Dow3 was the chance to return to dow1, but now with better engine and everything improved, with lots of stuff to be done and possibilities with each race just as one hell of a good RTS like dow1 demands. Lost opportunity, and looking at sale charts, franchise probably too. So yeah be innovate next time too Relic, that if you can of course.
What have you done really saddens me to a point you can not even imagine, both for you and the franchise future. I understand back in 2010 you wanted to do something "different" with dow2, but now you really tripped over with this bare bones hybrid of nothingness. Worse, you probably have just dragged the franchise into the abyss too, not just yourselves.
I guess the Chaos race will be released sooner or later as it seemed to be partially developed, as seen in campaign. I don't think that will be enough to lure more folks in though.
Gorb
"go back to vDoW" is the exact opposite of "innovating", @Fernandito. You want the game to go back to something that it previously was; that's not innovation. So there's no need to be snide and challenge if Relic "can of course" (be innovative).
Opinion post.
Fernandito
Don't twist out my post. Point made was precisely to quit being innovative and return to the old good stuff dow1 was, as that's why dow2 was already there; to be..., "innovative", and that only as long as you forget of coh of course, because we all know what dow2 was.
The second point made was that, if dow3 means being innovative too, then by all means be not next time. That, if there is to be a next time after a failure of such epic proportions.
This is so sad. After all these years, and this is all we get. Indeed, talent is no longer the most important requirement when it comes to game development. It's all just about the budget you're given.
SupremeSkill
@Fernandito
I think it's fundamentally bad progress in games in general if there will be no mechanical changes. Who wants to play the same thing with just better graphics, when you are always able to play the old game some more. What is the point?
...
Die hard DoW fans seem not to understand that many people don't like or don't want to play anymore DoW 1 and 2. I could have always bought DoW 2 before in my life, but it is not a kind of game I would enjoy. DoW 1 seems even less fun, since it misses tactical thinking all together, but DoW 3 sparked my intrest when I looked at it.
This is truly in the end just another silly mass nostalgia case, nothing more, nothing less and I'm talking about the whole review propaganda and whining all over the internet. deep facepalm
DoW 3 is improvement in the sense how RTS works, like it or not, casual experiences aside.
EDIT. Talk about heresy against the emperor!
Fernandito
You're taking my desire of a now a days dow1 game to little pleasant extremes. Of course there had been changes in the game I would have liked dow3 to be.
I presume you know of a franchise called Starcraft. Series that has been alive and played massively for twenty years now, and which has been basically the same since '98. Problem?. None of course, but pretty much the opposite.
I don't know. To have an incredible nice game like dow1 was, but now more modern, with a different engine; lots of new things to do etc but respecting the RTS game bases?. What's the point in a cataclysmic failure like dow3?.
Oh yeah. Active number of players currently playing dow1, even 2, seem to confirm your respectable theory.
This makes me wonder, not only whether or not you know what you are actually talking about but also If you have ever played dow1.
I think I've heard that one before.
If that's your perception of what actual improvement means.., the series to be on the verge of extinction little after the very first month of release?. Quite an improvement, indeed.
Cool story bro
Amoc
Ask all of the people who are still playing some version of Counter Strike, Call of Duty, EA Sports games, Total War, Mario Bros etc... If the current model is working, sometimes you just need to tweak, update and add a few new things to keep it fresh.
DoW III fans don't seem to understand that almost nobody wants to play DoW III.
This comment is a rather pathetic example of confirmation bias. It's a lame excuse for someone seeking validation for their opinion and it has no more merit than your typical fanboi apologist vs troll hater argument.
More of a divergence than an improvement, lol. I'll agree that the experience Relic delivered is pretty refined. The problem is that it's not an experience that the overwhelming majority of DoW fans or potential RTS players are remotely interested in.
Katitof
That "cartoony aesthetic" is exactly how TT is.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but GW themselves is killing "grimdark" for years now, they are increasing reach and accessibility, even god ++heresy redacted++ daemonettes got bras.
SupremeSkill
My point was that I don't care if you don't like this game and I wish you would not be complaining here in the forums or anywhere else.
I don't care too about concurrent player numbers, since I know I am right and DoW 3 is good and there are whiners everywhere.
Gorb
I must've misunderstood you when you said "be innovative next time", sorry. I understand that English might not be everyone's first language, or simply mistakes can be made when making posts.
You want Relic to stop being innovative?
Then I will forever disagree. I think it's their biggest strength. If Relic weren't as innovative as they were, I'd never have gotten Dawn of War II, arguably my favourite video game. I prefer it to DoW III, even though I still like (and enjoy) DoW III. I'm not a huge classical RTS fan anymore; I spent hundreds of hours in Dawn of War, but that kind of gameplay doesn't grab me anymore. I backed Planetary Annihilation and I spent most of my time managing the System Builder or the single-player mode they introduced. I quickly got bored of how it made you fight.
I can still play Dawn of War II. I love it. I love that they brought Commanders (and heroes) through to DoW III. That's probably one of my favourite things about this new title.
So you see. I'm a fan of the franchise. I've played it since its inception. I'm not a "new" fan, or a "young" fan, and I would much rather Relic continue to innovate, to try new things. Because if you don't try new things, you will eventually falter. You can't cater solely to a niche when selling a product, because that niche will reduce over time. People get older, they lose the time to play video games so much, and so on. You have to find ways to bring fresh life to the niche, to bring new players in. This is different from making it appealing to as many people as possible, of course.
For example, I really don't think DoW III is aimed at MOBA players at all - there's too much RTS macro and unit micro required (micro-intensive heroes don't often do well in MOBAs, they require high skill to be executed successfully and this makes it very hard to balance them against simpler, stronger hero designs). I think DoW III is an attempt to blend Relic's DoW titles into a modern RTS, and I applaud them for it.
edited for spelling mistakes and clarity on catering to a niche
Crazyman64335
Gorb you have like 25 hours on dow3 since launch. Does that sound like the playtime of a guy who "loves" the game?
Gorb
I think after playing something for 25 hours I know whether or not I like it, yeah
I said I "love" Dawn of War II, by the way - sorry for the confusion!