I'm the best player in this game (Kappa) and I disagree with most of what OP said.
1.) I don't think your ladder or rank position matters a whole lot in this game - even someone like me who is very good at this game would seem weak if a true RTS pro would step in. This is to say; Big Fish, Small pond - ladders tend not to work well without a large player pool.
2.) It is true that the game currently encourages early game aggro play (i.e. the meta) - but this has very little to do with the patch or unit balance and more to do with map design and resource reward for killing objectives that let you snowball.
3.) It is not true that the game lacks unit variety and strategic variety - I'm constantly switching up my build order with all races between eco-based builds and early aggro builds and everything in between. Yes, sometimes those builds are indeed bad, but most times they work just fine if you execute it right and play to your builds strengths. Playing this game at the top levels, I do not feel like I am limited in build order options or unit composition options (i.e. I don't always go tact spam - sometimes I do because it is indeed pretty good - but not all the time). This means that any army can be beaten given the proper situation. Even if you are outnumbered, a sweet Jonah smite, a Knob bomb/knock back blast, or baiting into a Dark Reaper killing field, there are many, many ways to fight strong armies in this game effectively with numerous unit compositions
This is to say that the game is actually quite balanced and rewards smart decision making and micro and has a lot less to do with build order spam/mindless game play that OP stated and implied. If anything, the game was more like this BEFORE this patch due to the ease of spamming power gens across the map at min 4 and unlocking end game tech in 10 min...
DoW3 has very stable balance. There are some design issues (like Elite respawn) I still think could be improved upon to address some of the issues brought up in this thread, but I also think it's important to realize; it's just not true that the game is not nearly as broken or ruined that a lot of posters here are saying.
If Line 1: Contains Syntax or otherwise Faulty error your options are to either;
A) Challenge me to honorable combat in the Arena known as twitch.tv/vindicarex in 1v1 showmatch
B ) Accept that I might be right about an "unpopular" idea.
C) Kappa
If Line 1: Contains Syntax or otherwise Faulty error your options are to either;
A) Challenge me to honorable combat in the Arena known as twitch.tv/vindicarex in 1v1 showmatch
B ) Accept that I might be right about an "unpopular" idea.
C) Kappa
Or we could point to the numerous players who are better than you who are saying the patch is crap and the wrong direction, and that what babyubyu is saying here was predicted.
You yourself should be able to realize that your lack of experience and game knowledge and ability, primarily with ork, is a discredit your claim to higher meta game comprehension. You came out with that long list of ork nerfs right on the heels of the previous patch, and you are apparently lacking in-game experience with this patch as well when in comparison to other, better players. It smells like impulsiveness. You recognize that in younger people as you get older. Yea, you beat babyubyu in a tournament once, but for some reason babyubyu played like absolute ++heresy redacted++ in those games and you know it.
As a caster with reputation, people are going to take you more seriously because you have influence, and because of that you have to be more careful about what you say because these Relic balance team apparently doesn't know any better. I personally would not feel I knew enough about the game to suggest balance changes enough unless I had at least 100 games played in each faction and top 3 in every ladder. To do otherwise in your position is to be irresponsible.
Now instead of having macha nerf we have ronhan buff to match and the game is still gimmicky and more about elites than ever.
If Line 1: Contains Syntax or otherwise Faulty error your options are to either;
A) Challenge me to honorable combat in the Arena known as twitch.tv/vindicarex in 1v1 showmatch
B ) Accept that I might be right about an "unpopular" idea.
C) Kappa
Or we could point to the numerous players who are better than you who are saying the patch is crap and the wrong direction, and that what babyubyu is saying here was predicted.
I wouldn't say anyone is hands down "better" than vindi. Maybe some on the same skill level. Perhaps people like Bike or Bhuri could be considered better, but they pretty much stopped playing, and when they were both were just abusing the most OP meta strategy to win every game.
Almost every suggestion Vindicare has made has been implemented into the game and for the better. This patch is certainly an improvement over the last. As far as I can tell, strategies have not changed in that everyone just wants to overwhelm the shield gen in 5 min to get that sweet money. This has been the meta since Day 1. Only difference now is that they have to sacrifice power to do it. Nothing in the last patch has made this aggro meta worse, if anything it has diluted it. Now players don't have to auto concede versus Orks and aren't out teched simply by losing the map for 2 min.
Can you imagine if relic was listening to every plebe on this forum or can barely micro 2 squads at a time? TRIGGER WARNING (if you are offended you aren't good at a video game): players that have little to no mastery of a game should use extreme caution when commenting on balance issues (because the are probably wrong). If a player cannot use a unit, tactic, or strategy to its full potential, that player has an incorrect perception about them. Would anyone take some silver/gold LoL player seriously because they whine a champ like LeBlanc is OP? Just like this example, almost every "issue" brought up on this site can be solved by L2P. Let's be honest too, we don't really have any GOSU gods playing this game, and the "top players" (myself included) would probably get crushed by a true pro, and at least I recognize this and don't go off ranting at relic to overhaul their game. BUT someone like you Frumpylumps is good enough to say Vindi isn't that good at the game, so you shouldn't trust his opinion, but trust MY OPINION??
Baby rightly brings up an issue in the game, but he misidentifies the root of the problem. As long as maps are small, objectives close together, and shield gens give massive resources in E1, aggro meta is probably gonna be around.
I don't doubt that a game between two top players may have more openings than pure spam. Spamming t0 units is simply a very convenient trade-off between ease of execution and effectiveness.
In my opinion, the main problem is the irrational 35% resources gained back from losing units. It makes the balance shift torwards spam, because it reduces the risk related to it.
Doctrines are fine, in my opinion the ones involving t2 and t3 units should be much more impactful, with t0/t1 doctrines being barely noticeable.
@WorlockOrk said:
Why does it takes Korean player input to admit how this game sucks?
Koreans are not saying the game sucks quite the contrary they liked it before the patch. They just are not happy with the changes. Please read before spewing ++heresy redacted++.
When we are talking abour Koren players is this n1 guy from south or north ? Just for info , i don't watch news lately. I would be glad to see North and South reunification. These guys are same people.
That is about as likely as kim ordering to launch his missles at guam. Not going to happen.
... I personally would not feel I knew enough about the game to suggest balance changes enough unless I had at least 100 games played in each faction and top 3 in every ladder. To do otherwise in your position is to be irresponsible.
Lmao wat, that is the single most silly thing I have ever heard, If nobz could one shot everything I should not have to play 100 bloody matches of every race to be able to say "yeah I think this might be OP guys". You do not have to play other races to suggest balance of races you do not play constantly, or at all. Eldar players sure liked to suggest balance changes to SM and it was totally fine for the most part.
Despite what anyone here has to say, we can't deny facts. BaByuByu pointed out, I quote:
i'm not talking about balance
'balance' is very delicate and complex,can not judge a game with a little
so I put the balance back and say something about the game itself
And also this:
many of my high-ranked friends say dow3 become a tedious and boring game
and the number of current player proves it
the 50% sale coupons make 800~1000 number of current player
then after patch? 400~600 current player
people are cruel..a game with a problem? they just leave the game
Balance is the least of the problems with this game currently. I assume that main discouragement and frustration with patch happened because people were waiting for some big shift with mechanics which didn't happen, we got another standard balance that switched metas a little and that was it. He's obviously not the only one who has that opinion, and the fact that more people left this game post patch proves it at some degree.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
More like 99% of his games are against players worse than him where he couldve gone nearly any build and still win - this has been true of all ladders in games with bad player base population. DoW2/CoH2 had tons of pros flaunting their E-peen about "lol look at my rank - 90% w/l ratio, im so good." Where in reality the large majorty of games they play is what I just said: ++heresy redacted++ stomps.
The fact is that the pool of very skilled players is small - so when someone good like Babyubyu logs on and never restarts his search to reset matchmaking parameters - he will get paired against ++heresy redacted++ after ++heresy redacted++ about 8/10 games I'd bet.
Winrate/ladder means almost nothing in my mind other than a general indicator of skill - but the variation and outliers in matchmaking and Elo ratings are much more pronounced with low player-base (Even in CoH2, with has a reasonable sized playerbased, still suffered quite frequently from mis-match of pros vs noobs).
This entire argument rests upon @BaByuByu description of the meta and how it is adverse for the game. But he goes a step further - implying that the game's design itself promotes this shallow gameplay, "if you do this all-in rush in other games(the early unit spammer can only play very poorly) and if the defender try very defensive stance(he is weak in his troop strength but economic strength is strong)
(this is a traditional rts game aspect)
it make a pretty exciting scene
but dow3 is not
in dow3 spammer also can take the resource, exactly different from other games..it make no sense..."
He goes on - but what he says here is just not true of the state of DoW3 and misses so much of the picture. You don't see the trees for the forest.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
More like 99% of his games are against players worse than him where he couldve gone nearly any build and still win - this has been true of all ladders in games with bad player base population. DoW2/CoH2 had tons of pros flaunting their E-peen about "lol look at my rank - 90% w/l ratio, im so good." Where in reality the large majorty of games they play is what I just said: ++heresy redacted++ stomps.
I like your concept of bad players, especially this "where he couldve gone nearly any build and still win", which, I suppose, implies that it's the natural way of things for competitive RTS scene.
Sadly, Relic was and, I suppose, will remove things embodying extreme micro, like Maxims and PIATs or macro, like the way the vehicles was nerfed in DoW1, so more of the people could play their game on more acceptable for them level than someone would have wanted.
But I have to agree - OP post marks mostly "points of taste", instead of some critical, irritating and basically depressing things that certain player can't get past.
@Stoner said:
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
You wouldn't get to anywhere bigger playerbase with such an approach, if you're to please the last 500 players left in the game. It just not fit for a 3A product.
If cool kids are ready for subscription fees, which ones they are most certainly going to collect on their popular channels, than, hmm, maybe?
But untill then, I think, Relic should concentrate on the players outside this never changing circle. And it would be super great if they would manage it without leaving those 500 they have right now.
@WorlockOrk said:
Why does it takes Korean player input to admit how this game sucks?
Koreans are not saying the game sucks quite the contrary they liked it before the patch. They just are not happy with the changes. Please read before spewing ++heresy redacted++.
Well, his post is not only on balance issues, if you read everything , you can find alot on game mechanics which cant be corrected with balance patches.
Pretty sure relic is going to take a look at economy changes and the other stuff. But they got to eventually let it be cause everytime they make majore changes it changes the game drastically. If say the next thing they should attempt is improve infantry health test econ change with infantry health and leave it be and focus on content.
On the notion of doctrines as upgrades: IMHO some should just be baseline for units, other should be upgrades. Some should even just be removed.
I will take Eldar for example:
Banshee blind on scream should be baseline
Reaper focus (slow under WW) should be baseline
DA shield bonus should be removed
Spectre stealth could be an upgrade
Spectre shield bonus should be baseline
DA grenades should be baseline
Banshee rage could be an upgrade
Etc.
Currently we have a lot of units under performing and by merging some of the less used doctrines into baseline stats could make them viable somewhat. It goes with all three races.
The doctrine system was meant to provide choices but it did the opposite IMHO.
@Stoner said:
Despite what anyone here has to say, we can't deny facts. BaByuByu pointed out, I quote:
i'm not talking about balance
'balance' is very delicate and complex,can not judge a game with a little
so I put the balance back and say something about the game itself
And also this:
many of my high-ranked friends say dow3 become a tedious and boring game
and the number of current player proves it
the 50% sale coupons make 800~1000 number of current player
then after patch? 400~600 current player
people are cruel..a game with a problem? they just leave the game
Balance is the least of the problems with this game currently. I assume that main discouragement and frustration with patch happened because people were waiting for some big shift with mechanics which didn't happen, we got another standard balance that switched metas a little and that was it. He's obviously not the only one who has that opinion, and the fact that more people left this game post patch proves it at some degree.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
The problem is that the things concerning the game mechanics remain unanswered from relic. What has been said here and fans comments are totaly ignored. The efforts are on skins and patches which won't change anything.
However, some people here said , relic cant do this and that but we didin't have any feedback from relic. By completely changing dumb eco system and some introductions from dow 1 features would be a great start. That will probably need ressources but if they had put the efforts in that instead of releasing useless balance patches at least it would have been a nice effort.
That's because there is nothing wrong with mechanics, they work perfectly fine and as intended.
Its people who expect completely different mechanics who have issues with them. There is certain vocal crowd of people who don't accept DoW3 at all and scream to forcefully reshape it into something it was never meant to be.
These "fans" should remain ignored, because they departed the plane of reality.
Eco system is greatly improved version of DOW1, DoW2 and CoH systems, so I don't see what your issue is with it. It literally took best parts of the former and put them together here with finding a viable solution to have slower, micro oriented early game and huge armies in late game, something no other RTS managed to accomplish without forcing players to have 10 bases and million workers on the map.
Exactly the same with "DoW1 features".
WHAT DoW1 features? Attaching hero to the squad? Makes no sense because of how large squads are and how powerful elites are supposed to be.
Morale? It existed so you don't just reinforce in combat until the end of time.
Armor and damage types? It was imbalanced cluster*uck.
Cover was extremely primitive, but needed map enhancer as most of the maps were literally flat surfaces with an odd hill here and there.
Campaign model is copied Winter Assault one, THE most acclaimed campaign in the whole DoW series.
Weapon upgrades? Only imperium factions had them and only because the game lacked actual unit variety.
The so missed "DoW1 features" are all workarounds due to limits of the game, not amazing miracle solutions to all problems, these features are not in DoW3, because DoW3 does not have all the problems DoW1 had to deal with.
@Stoner said:
Despite what anyone here has to say, we can't deny facts. BaByuByu pointed out, I quote:
i'm not talking about balance
'balance' is very delicate and complex,can not judge a game with a little
so I put the balance back and say something about the game itself
And also this:
many of my high-ranked friends say dow3 become a tedious and boring game
and the number of current player proves it
the 50% sale coupons make 800~1000 number of current player
then after patch? 400~600 current player
people are cruel..a game with a problem? they just leave the game
Balance is the least of the problems with this game currently. I assume that main discouragement and frustration with patch happened because people were waiting for some big shift with mechanics which didn't happen, we got another standard balance that switched metas a little and that was it. He's obviously not the only one who has that opinion, and the fact that more people left this game post patch proves it at some degree.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
The problem is that the things concerning the game mechanics remain unanswered from relic. What has been said here and fans comments are totaly ignored. The efforts are on skins and patches which won't change anything.
However, some people here said , relic cant do this and that but we didin't have any feedback from relic. By completely changing dumb eco system and some introductions from dow 1 features would be a great start. That will probably need ressources but if they had put the efforts in that instead of releasing useless balance patches at least it would have been a nice effort.
That's because there is nothing wrong with mechanics, they work perfectly fine and as intended.
Its people who expect completely different mechanics who have issues with them. There is certain vocal crowd of people who don't accept DoW3 at all and scream to forcefully reshape it into something it was never meant to be.
These "fans" should remain ignored, because they departed the plane of reality.
Eco system is greatly improved version of DOW1, DoW2 and CoH systems, so I don't see what your issue is with it. It literally took best parts of the former and put them together here with finding a viable solution to have slower, micro oriented early game and huge armies in late game, something no other RTS managed to accomplish without forcing players to have 10 bases and million workers on the map.
Exactly the same with "DoW1 features".
WHAT DoW1 features? Attaching hero to the squad? Makes no sense because of how large squads are and how powerful elites are supposed to be.
Morale? It existed so you don't just reinforce in combat until the end of time.
Armor and damage types? It was imbalanced cluster*uck.
Cover was extremely primitive, but needed map enhancer as most of the maps were literally flat surfaces with an odd hill here and there.
Campaign model is copied Winter Assault one, THE most acclaimed campaign in the whole DoW series.
Weapon upgrades? Only imperium factions had them and only because the game lacked actual unit variety.
The so missed "DoW1 features" are all workarounds due to limits of the game, not amazing miracle solutions to all problems, these features are not in DoW3, because DoW3 does not have all the problems DoW1 had to deal with.
@Chokolata said:
...
Currently we have a lot of units under performing and by merging some of the less used doctrines into baseline stats could make them viable somewhat. It goes with all three races.
...
Why do you think these units are under performing? I don't think they are they all have their uses.
The economic system and production macro of the game could really benefit from some more depth.
For example, for now we don't really have to make several buildings of the same kind to optimize our pop and gain an advantage based on macro skills. The game is clearly lacking, from this point of view. The combat gameplay is quite good, but the macro and base management are, in all honesty, quite superficial. DoW1 was undoubtedly better on this point, it allowed more macro strategies and, from there, more depth and diversity in the build orders. The time spent by the player between the battlefield and base management was more "balanced" in the game course. Maybe because of better/more diversified possibilities with defensive buildings, maybe also as you said because we had way larger choices and possibilities with upgrades to buy in these buildings and not so much "pre-made doctrine decks"...
From my humble point of view, the recent changes and those that are planned concerning the TTK, the resilience of line units, and the recent durability buff for buildings, could be a clue showing that the devs are willing to go this way. For the better i think.
We could consider that having, maybe sort of a slower production output (by smoothing income rates and working on their curve across the game course because the escalation phases clearly need to be reworked, also maybe by working the curves for unit prices, but more likely by tweaking unit construction time and building prices), could lead the player to play with more buildings of the same kind. Deepening the build orders and macro of the game by allowing strategies with 2 or even 3 buildings of the same kind (think about the 2 or 3 barracks Reaper strategy in SC2 as a good picture of it, or even the same thing later in the game for bio or mecha strategies) could be an interesting pattern to follow. The base management, the number of viable builds and multi-building strategies should be more important in order to have a performing battlefield. The longer TTK on units will hopefully serve to recover elites or heroes that have a more supportive role, and give the player a better time ratio to switch between the battlefield and these improved macro/base management necessities.
Having better controls to manage multiple buildings : This is an imperative, when we think about a RTS wanting to have competitive ambitions today. We should be able to select multiple buildings of the same kind at the same time. We should be able to create a control group with multiple buildings of the same kind. Production orders of several units of the same kind should be shared out between all the factories of the same kind that we have in our current selection. Along with an interface element to see at a glance how are filled the production queues of each building... We should be able to define a joint rally point when having several buildings in our current selection...
Many, many improvements are to be made on that aspect of the game. The combat gameplay, in itself, is quite satisfying from my point of view. But the depth of production macro, the number of viable build orders and the depth of base management (multiple buildings, upgrades, defensive or offensive strategies with buildings) are not yet satisfying.
Unless you went really really late game in dow1 multiple production buildings were not really of much benefit, and when it did that was from a gameplay perspective the worst part of the game because whatever micro the game had became much less important.
To complete my previous post, maybe it also has to do with the map design and how the resource points are placed :
In DoW1, as in SC2, the map pools often offer "starting" resource points that are placed in the immediate vicinity of the HQ. Aside from some maps allowing that in DoW3, many of them lead the player to make a first push forward in order to seize the resource points, and then settle a bit in order to develop his production capacities in the starting location, or by constructing a secondary base or secondary buildings farther on the map. Of course it's a way to design maps, it allows the player to "break the distances" with his forward production buildings, but this kind of redundant map design also leads the player to generally develop the same strategies again and again. Some variety about that could be very welcome.
For example, having more maps with resource points "in the main base" could allow very different strategies i think. Maybe more rush or "all in" ones, but also some first combat phases that have more macro depth, and another way of thinking our next moves to seize resource points and expand our map control.
Finally, maybe it could be about time to bring the ranked system for annihilation mode. That's only my opinion, opened to contrary ones of course, but that's clearly the game mode that made DoW1 and makes SC2 real successes. That's the one where the player has the best freedom in his strategic choices. It allows real rushes, real counters, real timings, it allows to surprise and harass the opponent anywhere we want, in a word there are no guardrails such as generators or pre-placed turrets as in the power core mode and that's maybe the purest mode to develop for a RTS.
@Stoner said:
Despite what anyone here has to say, we can't deny facts. BaByuByu pointed out, I quote:
i'm not talking about balance
'balance' is very delicate and complex,can not judge a game with a little
so I put the balance back and say something about the game itself
And also this:
many of my high-ranked friends say dow3 become a tedious and boring game
and the number of current player proves it
the 50% sale coupons make 800~1000 number of current player
then after patch? 400~600 current player
people are cruel..a game with a problem? they just leave the game
Balance is the least of the problems with this game currently. I assume that main discouragement and frustration with patch happened because people were waiting for some big shift with mechanics which didn't happen, we got another standard balance that switched metas a little and that was it. He's obviously not the only one who has that opinion, and the fact that more people left this game post patch proves it at some degree.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
The problem is that the things concerning the game mechanics remain unanswered from relic. What has been said here and fans comments are totaly ignored. The efforts are on skins and patches which won't change anything.
However, some people here said , relic cant do this and that but we didin't have any feedback from relic. By completely changing dumb eco system and some introductions from dow 1 features would be a great start. That will probably need ressources but if they had put the efforts in that instead of releasing useless balance patches at least it would have been a nice effort.
That's because there is nothing wrong with mechanics, they work perfectly fine and as intended.
Its people who expect completely different mechanics who have issues with them. There is certain vocal crowd of people who don't accept DoW3 at all and scream to forcefully reshape it into something it was never meant to be.
These "fans" should remain ignored, because they departed the plane of reality.
Eco system is greatly improved version of DOW1, DoW2 and CoH systems, so I don't see what your issue is with it. It literally took best parts of the former and put them together here with finding a viable solution to have slower, micro oriented early game and huge armies in late game, something no other RTS managed to accomplish without forcing players to have 10 bases and million workers on the map.
Exactly the same with "DoW1 features".
WHAT DoW1 features? Attaching hero to the squad? Makes no sense because of how large squads are and how powerful elites are supposed to be.
Morale? It existed so you don't just reinforce in combat until the end of time.
Armor and damage types? It was imbalanced cluster*uck.
Cover was extremely primitive, but needed map enhancer as most of the maps were literally flat surfaces with an odd hill here and there.
Campaign model is copied Winter Assault one, THE most acclaimed campaign in the whole DoW series.
Weapon upgrades? Only imperium factions had them and only because the game lacked actual unit variety.
The so missed "DoW1 features" are all workarounds due to limits of the game, not amazing miracle solutions to all problems, these features are not in DoW3, because DoW3 does not have all the problems DoW1 had to deal with.
You are like a broken cd. These are not realistic arguments, they are tainted with your personal opinions. It's not true that game mechanics are ok. Game is ultra boring and repetitive. By the way dow 3 is a continuity of dow1and dow2. And dow 1 is a piece of art , you cant just ignore it and bash dow 1 while worshping dow3. Dow 3 is like chopped horse, no legs, no brain just a infinite colors to dress the horse. Bah with 500 players it wont go anywere.
Its an RTS game, the very nature of gameplay of multiplayer RTS is repetitive, but its only boring if RTS is not your thing.
Go watch some casts from ANY RTS game, you'll see that 95% of people for 95% of time do EXACTLY the same 2-3 strategies over and over and over again, until balance patch comes and changes it.
DoW3 is already better then that since it allows you to use pretty much anything and succeed if your micro is up for it and you can utilize doctrines, @Vindicarex is a prime example of that, breaking the meta, using everything and being able to succeed with it. Go try non meta stuff in SC, see if you'll last until 5th minute.
Limits of the game ? Why we didint have input from relic for that ? In my eyes you don't have any credibility to speak for relic.
It doesn't take lead game designer for Relic to know squad leaders with possible amount of squads you can field is a complete redundancy, or you don't need X more weapon upgrades, when you have X more units that fulfill exactly that role the upgrade would, or DoW2/CoH like cover system would require redesign and rebalance of the whole game.
You simply have to not be completely ignorant to see it.
Dow3 dont have problems of dow1 because it dosent have any features nor complexity. Hey we have problems with sync skills, lets remove it. We have problems with armor types lets remove them. We have problems with camera rotation, lets lock it. We have problems with dynamic cover lets use staticbumble covers.
Define complexity.
100 armor types is a bad type of complexity.
Weapon upgrades are not complexity if a faction has whooping 2 non special/limited infantry units.
Sync-kills are not complexity, but an eye candy with bad implications on balance, which whole existence of DoW2 proved.
Camera rotation have completely NO effect on how you play the game.
I've already explained cover above.
DoW1 had no complexity at all in regards to map design.
Finaly , lets use matches and skin them with wh40 racec.++heresy redacted++, they dont have any clue how to tesolve problems nor how to make an interesting fun game.
It's worth the risk to lose 500 players and change mechanics to bring other players. In this situation is really best solution imo.
No, its not worth it, when it requires you to re-make the game completely and that's what delusional fanboys of DoW2 and 1 want.
Hell, delusional fanboys of DoW1 aren't even able to explain what DoW is to them, they just rant that DoW3 is not it and keep screaming about player made mod with stuff that NEVER was meant nor balanced for original game.
I am able to explain my points and back them up with what we have in game.
Can you do the same for your case instead of drooling around, screaming "MUH DOW, MUH GRIMDURK, MUH UA MOD, MUH COMPLEXITY" without explaining even a singular point for it?
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vindicarex
I'm the best player in this game (Kappa) and I disagree with most of what OP said.
1.) I don't think your ladder or rank position matters a whole lot in this game - even someone like me who is very good at this game would seem weak if a true RTS pro would step in. This is to say; Big Fish, Small pond - ladders tend not to work well without a large player pool.
2.) It is true that the game currently encourages early game aggro play (i.e. the meta) - but this has very little to do with the patch or unit balance and more to do with map design and resource reward for killing objectives that let you snowball.
3.) It is not true that the game lacks unit variety and strategic variety - I'm constantly switching up my build order with all races between eco-based builds and early aggro builds and everything in between. Yes, sometimes those builds are indeed bad, but most times they work just fine if you execute it right and play to your builds strengths. Playing this game at the top levels, I do not feel like I am limited in build order options or unit composition options (i.e. I don't always go tact spam - sometimes I do because it is indeed pretty good - but not all the time). This means that any army can be beaten given the proper situation. Even if you are outnumbered, a sweet Jonah smite, a Knob bomb/knock back blast, or baiting into a Dark Reaper killing field, there are many, many ways to fight strong armies in this game effectively with numerous unit compositions
This is to say that the game is actually quite balanced and rewards smart decision making and micro and has a lot less to do with build order spam/mindless game play that OP stated and implied. If anything, the game was more like this BEFORE this patch due to the ease of spamming power gens across the map at min 4 and unlocking end game tech in 10 min...
DoW3 has very stable balance. There are some design issues (like Elite respawn) I still think could be improved upon to address some of the issues brought up in this thread, but I also think it's important to realize; it's just not true that the game is not nearly as broken or ruined that a lot of posters here are saying.
vindicarex
P.S. of previous post:
If Line 1: Contains Syntax or otherwise Faulty error your options are to either;
A) Challenge me to honorable combat in the Arena known as twitch.tv/vindicarex in 1v1 showmatch
B ) Accept that I might be right about an "unpopular" idea.
C) Kappa
frumpylumps
Or we could point to the numerous players who are better than you who are saying the patch is crap and the wrong direction, and that what babyubyu is saying here was predicted.
You yourself should be able to realize that your lack of experience and game knowledge and ability, primarily with ork, is a discredit your claim to higher meta game comprehension. You came out with that long list of ork nerfs right on the heels of the previous patch, and you are apparently lacking in-game experience with this patch as well when in comparison to other, better players. It smells like impulsiveness. You recognize that in younger people as you get older. Yea, you beat babyubyu in a tournament once, but for some reason babyubyu played like absolute ++heresy redacted++ in those games and you know it.
As a caster with reputation, people are going to take you more seriously because you have influence, and because of that you have to be more careful about what you say because these Relic balance team apparently doesn't know any better. I personally would not feel I knew enough about the game to suggest balance changes enough unless I had at least 100 games played in each faction and top 3 in every ladder. To do otherwise in your position is to be irresponsible.
Now instead of having macha nerf we have ronhan buff to match and the game is still gimmicky and more about elites than ever.
DaDokisinX
I wouldn't say anyone is hands down "better" than vindi. Maybe some on the same skill level. Perhaps people like Bike or Bhuri could be considered better, but they pretty much stopped playing, and when they were both were just abusing the most OP meta strategy to win every game.
Almost every suggestion Vindicare has made has been implemented into the game and for the better. This patch is certainly an improvement over the last. As far as I can tell, strategies have not changed in that everyone just wants to overwhelm the shield gen in 5 min to get that sweet money. This has been the meta since Day 1. Only difference now is that they have to sacrifice power to do it. Nothing in the last patch has made this aggro meta worse, if anything it has diluted it. Now players don't have to auto concede versus Orks and aren't out teched simply by losing the map for 2 min.
Can you imagine if relic was listening to every plebe on this forum or can barely micro 2 squads at a time? TRIGGER WARNING (if you are offended you aren't good at a video game): players that have little to no mastery of a game should use extreme caution when commenting on balance issues (because the are probably wrong). If a player cannot use a unit, tactic, or strategy to its full potential, that player has an incorrect perception about them. Would anyone take some silver/gold LoL player seriously because they whine a champ like LeBlanc is OP? Just like this example, almost every "issue" brought up on this site can be solved by L2P. Let's be honest too, we don't really have any GOSU gods playing this game, and the "top players" (myself included) would probably get crushed by a true pro, and at least I recognize this and don't go off ranting at relic to overhaul their game. BUT someone like you Frumpylumps is good enough to say Vindi isn't that good at the game, so you shouldn't trust his opinion, but trust MY OPINION??
Baby rightly brings up an issue in the game, but he misidentifies the root of the problem. As long as maps are small, objectives close together, and shield gens give massive resources in E1, aggro meta is probably gonna be around.
Martin
post replays.
CadisEtramaDiRaizel
the things i liked about this patch were the balance changes to the wraithlord and mad dread
Daunt
I don't doubt that a game between two top players may have more openings than pure spam. Spamming t0 units is simply a very convenient trade-off between ease of execution and effectiveness.
In my opinion, the main problem is the irrational 35% resources gained back from losing units. It makes the balance shift torwards spam, because it reduces the risk related to it.
Doctrines are fine, in my opinion the ones involving t2 and t3 units should be much more impactful, with t0/t1 doctrines being barely noticeable.
CANNED_F3TUS
Koreans are not saying the game sucks quite the contrary they liked it before the patch. They just are not happy with the changes. Please read before spewing ++heresy redacted++.
That is about as likely as kim ordering to launch his missles at guam. Not going to happen.
Wikkyd
Lmao wat, that is the single most silly thing I have ever heard, If nobz could one shot everything I should not have to play 100 bloody matches of every race to be able to say "yeah I think this might be OP guys". You do not have to play other races to suggest balance of races you do not play constantly, or at all. Eldar players sure liked to suggest balance changes to SM and it was totally fine for the most part.
Gorb
General note to avoid political talk. This thread is about the contents of the OP, thanks.
Moderator Post
Stoner
Despite what anyone here has to say, we can't deny facts. BaByuByu pointed out, I quote:
And also this:
Balance is the least of the problems with this game currently. I assume that main discouragement and frustration with patch happened because people were waiting for some big shift with mechanics which didn't happen, we got another standard balance that switched metas a little and that was it. He's obviously not the only one who has that opinion, and the fact that more people left this game post patch proves it at some degree.
Considering what Vindi says about meta, I take upon myself to rephrase this a little:
"Sometimes I meet players with lower skill than me (or sometimes I feel ballsy), so I can steamroll them with pretty much anything, that's why I don't 100% of times play meta".
BaByuByu plays meta like 99% of times, at least that's what I see on his streams, thus his WL is sky high. What's there to argue really?
Worst thing to do now is to deny obvious issues, cover our eyes and ears, and say how great everything is, while we slowly get to 10 players online in prime time.
And please, let's not turn this convo into e-peen competition...
vindicarex
More like 99% of his games are against players worse than him where he couldve gone nearly any build and still win - this has been true of all ladders in games with bad player base population. DoW2/CoH2 had tons of pros flaunting their E-peen about "lol look at my rank - 90% w/l ratio, im so good." Where in reality the large majorty of games they play is what I just said: ++heresy redacted++ stomps.
The fact is that the pool of very skilled players is small - so when someone good like Babyubyu logs on and never restarts his search to reset matchmaking parameters - he will get paired against ++heresy redacted++ after ++heresy redacted++ about 8/10 games I'd bet.
Winrate/ladder means almost nothing in my mind other than a general indicator of skill - but the variation and outliers in matchmaking and Elo ratings are much more pronounced with low player-base (Even in CoH2, with has a reasonable sized playerbased, still suffered quite frequently from mis-match of pros vs noobs).
This entire argument rests upon @BaByuByu description of the meta and how it is adverse for the game. But he goes a step further - implying that the game's design itself promotes this shallow gameplay, "if you do this all-in rush in other games(the early unit spammer can only play very poorly) and if the defender try very defensive stance(he is weak in his troop strength but economic strength is strong)
(this is a traditional rts game aspect)
it make a pretty exciting scene
but dow3 is not
in dow3 spammer also can take the resource, exactly different from other games..it make no sense..."
He goes on - but what he says here is just not true of the state of DoW3 and misses so much of the picture. You don't see the trees for the forest.
Ololo111
I like your concept of bad players, especially this "where he couldve gone nearly any build and still win", which, I suppose, implies that it's the natural way of things for competitive RTS scene.
Sadly, Relic was and, I suppose, will remove things embodying extreme micro, like Maxims and PIATs or macro, like the way the vehicles was nerfed in DoW1, so more of the people could play their game on more acceptable for them level than someone would have wanted.
But I have to agree - OP post marks mostly "points of taste", instead of some critical, irritating and basically depressing things that certain player can't get past.
Ololo111
You wouldn't get to anywhere bigger playerbase with such an approach, if you're to please the last 500 players left in the game. It just not fit for a 3A product.
If cool kids are ready for subscription fees, which ones they are most certainly going to collect on their popular channels, than, hmm, maybe?
But untill then, I think, Relic should concentrate on the players outside this never changing circle. And it would be super great if they would manage it without leaving those 500 they have right now.
CANNED_F3TUS
Pretty sure relic is going to take a look at economy changes and the other stuff. But they got to eventually let it be cause everytime they make majore changes it changes the game drastically. If say the next thing they should attempt is improve infantry health test econ change with infantry health and leave it be and focus on content.
Chokolata
On the notion of doctrines as upgrades: IMHO some should just be baseline for units, other should be upgrades. Some should even just be removed.
I will take Eldar for example:
Etc.
Currently we have a lot of units under performing and by merging some of the less used doctrines into baseline stats could make them viable somewhat. It goes with all three races.
The doctrine system was meant to provide choices but it did the opposite IMHO.
Regards,
Choko
Katitof
That's because there is nothing wrong with mechanics, they work perfectly fine and as intended.
Its people who expect completely different mechanics who have issues with them. There is certain vocal crowd of people who don't accept DoW3 at all and scream to forcefully reshape it into something it was never meant to be.
These "fans" should remain ignored, because they departed the plane of reality.
Eco system is greatly improved version of DOW1, DoW2 and CoH systems, so I don't see what your issue is with it. It literally took best parts of the former and put them together here with finding a viable solution to have slower, micro oriented early game and huge armies in late game, something no other RTS managed to accomplish without forcing players to have 10 bases and million workers on the map.
Exactly the same with "DoW1 features".
WHAT DoW1 features? Attaching hero to the squad? Makes no sense because of how large squads are and how powerful elites are supposed to be.
Morale? It existed so you don't just reinforce in combat until the end of time.
Armor and damage types? It was imbalanced cluster*uck.
Cover was extremely primitive, but needed map enhancer as most of the maps were literally flat surfaces with an odd hill here and there.
Campaign model is copied Winter Assault one, THE most acclaimed campaign in the whole DoW series.
Weapon upgrades? Only imperium factions had them and only because the game lacked actual unit variety.
The so missed "DoW1 features" are all workarounds due to limits of the game, not amazing miracle solutions to all problems, these features are not in DoW3, because DoW3 does not have all the problems DoW1 had to deal with.
CANNED_F3TUS
Yup. Have to agree overall
Martin
Why do you think these units are under performing? I don't think they are they all have their uses.
Megiddo
I have to agree with some observations made here.
The economic system and production macro of the game could really benefit from some more depth.
For example, for now we don't really have to make several buildings of the same kind to optimize our pop and gain an advantage based on macro skills. The game is clearly lacking, from this point of view. The combat gameplay is quite good, but the macro and base management are, in all honesty, quite superficial. DoW1 was undoubtedly better on this point, it allowed more macro strategies and, from there, more depth and diversity in the build orders. The time spent by the player between the battlefield and base management was more "balanced" in the game course. Maybe because of better/more diversified possibilities with defensive buildings, maybe also as you said because we had way larger choices and possibilities with upgrades to buy in these buildings and not so much "pre-made doctrine decks"...
From my humble point of view, the recent changes and those that are planned concerning the TTK, the resilience of line units, and the recent durability buff for buildings, could be a clue showing that the devs are willing to go this way. For the better i think.
We could consider that having, maybe sort of a slower production output (by smoothing income rates and working on their curve across the game course because the escalation phases clearly need to be reworked, also maybe by working the curves for unit prices, but more likely by tweaking unit construction time and building prices), could lead the player to play with more buildings of the same kind. Deepening the build orders and macro of the game by allowing strategies with 2 or even 3 buildings of the same kind (think about the 2 or 3 barracks Reaper strategy in SC2 as a good picture of it, or even the same thing later in the game for bio or mecha strategies) could be an interesting pattern to follow. The base management, the number of viable builds and multi-building strategies should be more important in order to have a performing battlefield. The longer TTK on units will hopefully serve to recover elites or heroes that have a more supportive role, and give the player a better time ratio to switch between the battlefield and these improved macro/base management necessities.
Having better controls to manage multiple buildings : This is an imperative, when we think about a RTS wanting to have competitive ambitions today. We should be able to select multiple buildings of the same kind at the same time. We should be able to create a control group with multiple buildings of the same kind. Production orders of several units of the same kind should be shared out between all the factories of the same kind that we have in our current selection. Along with an interface element to see at a glance how are filled the production queues of each building... We should be able to define a joint rally point when having several buildings in our current selection...
Many, many improvements are to be made on that aspect of the game. The combat gameplay, in itself, is quite satisfying from my point of view. But the depth of production macro, the number of viable build orders and the depth of base management (multiple buildings, upgrades, defensive or offensive strategies with buildings) are not yet satisfying.
Martin
Unless you went really really late game in dow1 multiple production buildings were not really of much benefit, and when it did that was from a gameplay perspective the worst part of the game because whatever micro the game had became much less important.
Megiddo
To complete my previous post, maybe it also has to do with the map design and how the resource points are placed :
In DoW1, as in SC2, the map pools often offer "starting" resource points that are placed in the immediate vicinity of the HQ. Aside from some maps allowing that in DoW3, many of them lead the player to make a first push forward in order to seize the resource points, and then settle a bit in order to develop his production capacities in the starting location, or by constructing a secondary base or secondary buildings farther on the map. Of course it's a way to design maps, it allows the player to "break the distances" with his forward production buildings, but this kind of redundant map design also leads the player to generally develop the same strategies again and again. Some variety about that could be very welcome.
For example, having more maps with resource points "in the main base" could allow very different strategies i think. Maybe more rush or "all in" ones, but also some first combat phases that have more macro depth, and another way of thinking our next moves to seize resource points and expand our map control.
Finally, maybe it could be about time to bring the ranked system for annihilation mode. That's only my opinion, opened to contrary ones of course, but that's clearly the game mode that made DoW1 and makes SC2 real successes. That's the one where the player has the best freedom in his strategic choices. It allows real rushes, real counters, real timings, it allows to surprise and harass the opponent anywhere we want, in a word there are no guardrails such as generators or pre-placed turrets as in the power core mode and that's maybe the purest mode to develop for a RTS.
Katitof
Its an RTS game, the very nature of gameplay of multiplayer RTS is repetitive, but its only boring if RTS is not your thing.
Go watch some casts from ANY RTS game, you'll see that 95% of people for 95% of time do EXACTLY the same 2-3 strategies over and over and over again, until balance patch comes and changes it.
DoW3 is already better then that since it allows you to use pretty much anything and succeed if your micro is up for it and you can utilize doctrines, @Vindicarex is a prime example of that, breaking the meta, using everything and being able to succeed with it. Go try non meta stuff in SC, see if you'll last until 5th minute.
It doesn't take lead game designer for Relic to know squad leaders with possible amount of squads you can field is a complete redundancy, or you don't need X more weapon upgrades, when you have X more units that fulfill exactly that role the upgrade would, or DoW2/CoH like cover system would require redesign and rebalance of the whole game.
You simply have to not be completely ignorant to see it.
Define complexity.
100 armor types is a bad type of complexity.
Weapon upgrades are not complexity if a faction has whooping 2 non special/limited infantry units.
Sync-kills are not complexity, but an eye candy with bad implications on balance, which whole existence of DoW2 proved.
Camera rotation have completely NO effect on how you play the game.
I've already explained cover above.
DoW1 had no complexity at all in regards to map design.
No, its not worth it, when it requires you to re-make the game completely and that's what delusional fanboys of DoW2 and 1 want.
Hell, delusional fanboys of DoW1 aren't even able to explain what DoW is to them, they just rant that DoW3 is not it and keep screaming about player made mod with stuff that NEVER was meant nor balanced for original game.
I am able to explain my points and back them up with what we have in game.
Can you do the same for your case instead of drooling around, screaming "MUH DOW, MUH GRIMDURK, MUH UA MOD, MUH COMPLEXITY" without explaining even a singular point for it?
Stoner
@Katitof
Can I ask how many hours you spent in PvP overall?