@jonoliveira12 said:
DoW1 does have too much redundancy in unit choices, and it gets worse with mods. SM, CSM, and SoB play exactly the same until lategame, and even then, the differences are minimal.
Dark Eldar feels like a vehicle specialized subfaction of Eldar. Necrons only realistically need Necron Warrior spam, and Tomb Spiders, along with early Necron Lord to win. Tau can get away with just massing Stealth Suits, which get an anti-everything weapon upgrade, are permanently stealth, and get so much stacked upgrades with the Mon'Ka doctrine building; that the only other units you should build, are builder drones, and the OP Daemon Armour Krootox.
SM, CSM, and SoB are not played the same way at all man. The feel all unique and all of them make DoW1 great. Those races all have different builds and strategies. Did you play the game at all ??? I was among the best DoW1 players before I left the game and the only race that felt really bad and unnecessary to me was Dark Eldar. All other races were super unique.
I did, they all have a tactical all-rounder unit that can recieve the same basic wargear upgrades, they all have an assault unit that jumps into melee, they all have a weaponless transport unit, and they all have a strong melee walker at the same tier (t2).
They are just reskins of the same base faction, with some lategame differences.
And drops the mic xD
Yeah, cause they can t work differently with the faction in the background.
That is not true. You can make each race unique it just takes time and clever minds to do so.
There are talks how "most DOW I races were copies of each other" which isn't true as a whole, but has some merit to this idea, and to be completely honest, I don't see this as a bad thing. Nobody gives a ++heresy redacted++ about asymmetric design if it's not fun and negatively impacts balance. We had a discussion a while back about how community driven update for CoH2 considered one of the best patches in update history, and players stated that this patch removed certain amount uniqueness from factions, but the end result was improvement of gameplay. What really matters is if game is fair and fun to play, nothing else.
@Stoner said:
^ I don't think anyone mentioned UA here. If we go into comparisons, DOW I had most basic features, better graphic options (not like some cheap console port) and really now, comparing game coming with 4 races vs. game that came with 3 and both had broken balance on launch in pretty much the same way... Most mindbogging thing here is that after years of experience in development, we get inferior product in all aspects. Nobody asked for 10 races on release, but at least 4 to keep up the standard? Some stuff like observer which is pretty much everywhere in these kinds of games, is that really so much to ask? It's no brainer that with each new DOW, it was just bigger and bigger decline in quality, when by logic it should've been absolute reverse.
vDoW has very basic graphical options. It has zero AA support. DoW III options are definitely superior.
I understand this desire to romanticise the past, but it doesn't make for an accurate portrayal of the past. If you want a technical discussion on why new games don't automatically launch with all the features of previous games, on previous engines, using older technologies, I'd be happy to discuss it.
Opinion post.
Excuse me sir, but you really need to refresh your memory, that's not very basic but rather simplest preset type of options here which usually shipped with low quality console ports:
And that's what graphic options should look like in reality for decent PC game:
@jonoliveira12 said:
DoW1 does have too much redundancy in unit choices, and it gets worse with mods. SM, CSM, and SoB play exactly the same until lategame, and even then, the differences are minimal.
Dark Eldar feels like a vehicle specialized subfaction of Eldar. Necrons only realistically need Necron Warrior spam, and Tomb Spiders, along with early Necron Lord to win. Tau can get away with just massing Stealth Suits, which get an anti-everything weapon upgrade, are permanently stealth, and get so much stacked upgrades with the Mon'Ka doctrine building; that the only other units you should build, are builder drones, and the OP Daemon Armour Krootox.
SM, CSM, and SoB are not played the same way at all man. The feel all unique and all of them make DoW1 great. Those races all have different builds and strategies. Did you play the game at all ??? I was among the best DoW1 players before I left the game and the only race that felt really bad and unnecessary to me was Dark Eldar. All other races were super unique.
I did, they all have a tactical all-rounder unit that can recieve the same basic wargear upgrades, they all have an assault unit that jumps into melee, they all have a weaponless transport unit, and they all have a strong melee walker at the same tier (t2).
They are just reskins of the same base faction, with some lategame differences.
And drops the mic xD
Yeah, cause they can t work differently with the faction in the background.
And yet, you have people here claiming they did.
Apparently bolter and power armor users played differently then bolter and power armor users with spikes or bolter and power armor users with tits, which only shows further how blind to any kind of flaws DOW1 crowd is, succumbed in their own nostalgia and DoW1 romanticism, which couldn't be further from how it actually was.
I'm not arguing against better options or support. I'm arguing against this need to paint what we have in DoW III as worse than it actually is, coupled with a rather favourable view of whichever previous DoW game the poster in question happens to prefer.
I've had people tell me that the launch of DoW II was technically a smoother launch than that of DoW III. Sorry, but nope. Not even close.
i know you guys will be sick and tired of this reply, but here it goes: i am AGAINST new units for existing races and would rather want they focus all their energy on new races. i wanna have Chaos and IG sooo soooo bad in this game. just imagine seeing a Defiler or Leman Russ in this beautiful game engine!
it already was a big surprise for me when they've announced new elites for the three races we already have. i am not saying i don't like it but it was just a huge (positive) surprise for me. whether they should actually continue putting out new stuff for existing races? again, i am not opposing new stuff but i'd rather prefer getting Chaos instead
@Ace40k said:
i know you guys will be sick and tired of this reply, but here it goes: i am AGAINST new units for existing races and would rather want they focus all their energy on new races. i wanna have Chaos and IG sooo soooo bad in this game. just imagine seeing a Defiler or Leman Russ in this beautiful game engine!
And what makes you believe they aren't working on new factions for months now?
Ancient ways of one expansion per year do not work anymore for keeping players around.
Only frequent content updates do as players nowadays have a kitten attention span in regards to game, while 10-15 years ago we would play single game for years.
it already was a big surprise for me when they've announced new elites for the three races we already have. i am not saying i don't like it but it was just a huge (positive) surprise for me. whether they should actually continue putting out new stuff for existing races? again, i am not opposing new stuff but i'd rather prefer getting Chaos instead
Why would it be any kind of surprise to you?
Elite system as it is, is a PERFECT medium to implement new, meaningful and meta changing content that is easy to actually balance and allows more frequent updates then once a year big expansion.
And chaos is just regular space marines with daemons instead of dreadnoughts and spikes instead of emperor praises, rich lore, but one of more boring choices for actual new faction due to abundance of overlapping equipment with already existing space marines.
If I was to pick new faction, chaos would be no sooner then 3rd place, after something actually unique, like Necrons or Tau.
@Ace40k said:
i know you guys will be sick and tired of this reply, but here it goes: i am AGAINST new units for existing races and would rather want they focus all their energy on new races. i wanna have Chaos and IG sooo soooo bad in this game. just imagine seeing a Defiler or Leman Russ in this beautiful game engine!
And what makes you believe they aren't working on new factions for months now?
Ancient ways of one expansion per year do not work anymore for keeping players around.
Only frequent content updates do as players nowadays have a kitten attention span in regards to game, while 10-15 years ago we would play single game for years.
i appreciate your enthusiasm that Relic can deliver everything at once, Kat, but there are things like opportunity cost: more work on existing races means less work possible on new races. Relic also has only a limited amount of resources, like any developer out there. so the time and energy they waste on new SM elites is less time spent on my beloved Chaos faction
it already was a big surprise for me when they've announced new elites for the three races we already have. i am not saying i don't like it but it was just a huge (positive) surprise for me. whether they should actually continue putting out new stuff for existing races? again, i am not opposing new stuff but i'd rather prefer getting Chaos instead
Why would it be any kind of surprise to you?
Elite system as it is, is a PERFECT medium to implement new, meaningful and meta changing content that is easy to actually balance and allows more frequent updates then once a year big expansion.
maybe, but they should not go down the LoL/DotA road and just churn out new elites after elites while completely forgetting about the line units aspect of this title. this is not a pure MOBA (even if i enjoy the MOBA elements) but an RTS game first and foremost. you may be down with their idea but i'd like DoWIII to expand on the DoW part instead, that is, the more races the better.
And chaos is just regular space marines with daemons instead of dreadnoughts and spikes instead of emperor praises, rich lore, but one of more boring choices for actual new faction due to abundance of overlapping equipment with already existing space marines.
If I was to pick new faction, chaos would be no sooner then 3rd place, after something actually unique, like Necrons or Tau.
this is the LAST time you defy the Chaos Gods! get out of my sight, loyalist!
@Ace40k said:
i know you guys will be sick and tired of this reply, but here it goes: i am AGAINST new units for existing races and would rather want they focus all their energy on new races. i wanna have Chaos and IG sooo soooo bad in this game. just imagine seeing a Defiler or Leman Russ in this beautiful game engine!
And what makes you believe they aren't working on new factions for months now?
Ancient ways of one expansion per year do not work anymore for keeping players around.
Only frequent content updates do as players nowadays have a kitten attention span in regards to game, while 10-15 years ago we would play single game for years.
i appreciate your enthusiasm that Relic can deliver everything at once, Kat, but there are things like opportunity cost: more work on existing races means less work possible on new races. Relic also has only a limited amount of resources, like any developer out there. so the time and energy they waste on new SM elites is less time spent on my beloved Chaos faction
Again, why isn't that obvious to you?
They were literally crapping content out for CoH2 during first year and then they have hit us with expansion of 2 factions+campaign.
Relic is perfectly capable of doing it.
You don't know the resources relic has, you don't know how much money Sega invests, but given the fact they did aquired Relic in the first place, its easy to assume its not just a few dimes, while milking them to death, EA publishing style.
it already was a big surprise for me when they've announced new elites for the three races we already have. i am not saying i don't like it but it was just a huge (positive) surprise for me. whether they should actually continue putting out new stuff for existing races? again, i am not opposing new stuff but i'd rather prefer getting Chaos instead
Why would it be any kind of surprise to you?
Elite system as it is, is a PERFECT medium to implement new, meaningful and meta changing content that is easy to actually balance and allows more frequent updates then once a year big expansion.
maybe, but they should not go down the LoL/DotA road and just churn out new elites after elites while completely forgetting about the line units aspect of this title. this is not a pure MOBA (even if i enjoy the MOBA elements) but an RTS game first and foremost. you may be down with their idea but i'd like DoWIII to expand on the DoW part instead, that is, the more races the better.
Relic RTS are always objective based. Regular annihilation was never an option and elites are simply as important as line units now. They are strong, but they are not overpowering.
Go use your 2-3 EP elite alone against 3 basic squads, see how well you'll do.
I fully agree that actual DoW is about faction variety first and foremost, but relic have proven time and time again in the past that they have no problem giving out smaller content and new factions.
And chaos is just regular space marines with daemons instead of dreadnoughts and spikes instead of emperor praises, rich lore, but one of more boring choices for actual new faction due to abundance of overlapping equipment with already existing space marines.
If I was to pick new faction, chaos would be no sooner then 3rd place, after something actually unique, like Necrons or Tau.
this is the LAST time you defy the Chaos Gods! get out of my sight, loyalist!
Mon-keigh fooled again, objective accomplished, retreating into the webway.
I decided to count the amount of active different units you can have on the field in dow1(soulstorm) and dow3. I counted 3 elite units as well since they are as many as you can field in a match but not all 9.
space marines have 4 less units, having 18 line units in dow1(not counting skull probe) but only 11 line units and 3 elites in dow3. (14 total)
orks have 3 less units, having 16 line units in dow1, but only 10 line units and 3 elites in dow3.(13 total)
eldar have 4 less units, having 17 units in dow1, but only 10 line units and 3 elites in dow3. (13 total)
All factions however have 6 more elites(soon 7) if you count them all, bringing dow3 to a higher number just not within a single match.
Game could definitely use more line units. All tiers could benefit greatly from line units, in particular tier 3 in which only 2 units are unlocked per faction, but also the tier 1 and tier 2 since those have a bigger impact on the game since many matches wont go late game and you can at least still use lower tier units in tier 3 while you cannot make use of the higher tier units in tier 1 2 obviously.
I think it is very important we get more line units because the variety of units that can be fielded in a single match will not increase no matter how many elite units are added (unless the elite system is changed).
I can understand in some ways why relic added so few units beyond just budget tho, since a lot of units in dow1 were only possible to add by giving them a cap on how many you could have, otherwise they just made their lower tier counterparts unneeded. If more line units should be added it needs to be done properly without having to resort to caps in order for units to not become unneeded.
@Martin said:
it is dawn of war soulstorm with dow3, dawn of war vanilla had less units than soulstorm.
Obviously it did, DoW1 had 3 expansions, each of them added new units.
Its less then fair to compare unit count after 3 expansions to only a base game.
Both are worth comparing, you can look at vanilla dawn of war if you think that is more fair, but there is also the fact that you can open up soulstorm or dark crusade right now and have more units and ask yourself why you should play dawn of war 3 if it has less. But since it's requested let me have a look at how it compares with vanilla:
dawn of war vanilla spacemarine has 15 line units while dawn of war 3 has 11 line units and 3 elites, makes it 1 unit less.
dawn of war vanilla orks have 13 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it the same amount of on field units.
dawn of war vanilla eldar have 15 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it 2 less units.
Also do we actually even know if relic intends to release more line units for dawn of war 3 and not just elites? saying it has not been out for long and it will get later is fine and all but if it does not get later it does not matter how long we wait. I skipped on dawn of war 2, did it receive more line units over time?
@Martin said:
Both are worth comparing, you can look at vanilla dawn of war if you think that is more fair, but there is also the fact that you can open up soulstorm or dark crusade right now and have more units and ask yourself why you should play dawn of war 3 if it has less. But since it's requested let me have a look at how it compares with vanilla:
dawn of war vanilla spacemarine has 15 line units while dawn of war 3 has 11 line units and 3 elites, makes it 1 unit less.
dawn of war vanilla orks have 13 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it the same amount of on field units.
dawn of war vanilla eldar have 15 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it 2 less units.
Following that logic, Men of War: Assault Squad 2 should be best RTS ever made.
However its mediocre at best.
Number of units does not equal fun, especially if every second one is either redundant or hard capped at 1, completely violating the whole point of line unit.
2 variants of stock dreadnoughts, completely redundant.
2 variants of land speeders, completely redundant.
Builders and skull probes, while in DoW3 builder does both.
Land raider, grey knights, both terminators and apothecaries were much more akin to DoW3 elites then actual line units, having limit and all.
@Martin said:
I skipped on dawn of war 2, did it receive more line units over time?
Yes, DOW2:CR introduced the weirdboy, the librarian, wraithguards, tyrant guard and genestealers to existing races
And DOW2:R introduced the battlewagon, the hive tyrant, the autarch, the land raider redeemer, noise marines to existing races
@Katitof
It's cute how you automatically go into anti-hater mode because I say something negative about the game compared to previous games. Number of units is far from the only deciding factor, if it was I would be playing ultimate apocalypse mod not dawn of war 3. But more unit variety is definitely something I think would help make game more fun for me and others, especially at the casual level where you just wanna get in a game and build a bunch of cool units.
@Martin I'm merely pointing out DoW1 redundancies, where they literally kept throwing in units for the sake of having more units and the fact that you can't compare RTS with multiple expansions to one without any expansion yet.
but you can, I just did! I don't have to play fair katikof what makes you think that! :P
I adressed those redundancies in my post myself already and said I would only like to see new units if added in a good way and not the way you had to add caps for them in dawn of war 1 just to not make existing units completely unneeded. Would you not like more line units katikof?
I think that despite dawn of war vanilla having roughly the same amount of units, the amount of line units really feels like less in comparison to that because of the elite system taking away from line unit variety. It's very noticeable when you tech up in dawn of war 1 to get all these lategame units and ultimate units and fancy upgrades but since elite system takes a lot of that it just feels like unlocking a couple units not an entirely new tier. I don't want the elites put back into line units roster, I think it's a good system but I would like to see additional line units.
I would like for Relic to add units that complememt the existing faction rosters, and keep all the units they would like capped, as Elites.
Eldar could use some Swooping Hawks as jump troops (though not in melee) and Warwalkers as light support vehicles for infantry assault (maybe making them have 1 shuriken cannon + sensor pack to detect stealth, but have them apply supression only on a sungle target, instead of AoE).
SM doesn't really meed more units, but more Wargear, Squad Leader upgrades, and vehicle Conversion Kits, that allow their already good line-up, to become more versatile with each Tier.
Orkz could benefit from something like giving Boyz mobs an upgrade that gives them a new squad member with a Burna, that allows them to slow the enemy they are pursuing, and Grot tanks.
@jonoliveira12 said:
DoW1 does have too much redundancy in unit choices, and it gets worse with mods. SM, CSM, and SoB play exactly the same until lategame, and even then, the differences are minimal.
Dark Eldar feels like a vehicle specialized subfaction of Eldar. Necrons only realistically need Necron Warrior spam, and Tomb Spiders, along with early Necron Lord to win. Tau can get away with just massing Stealth Suits, which get an anti-everything weapon upgrade, are permanently stealth, and get so much stacked upgrades with the Mon'Ka doctrine building; that the only other units you should build, are builder drones, and the OP Daemon Armour Krootox.
SM, CSM, and SoB are not played the same way at all man. The feel all unique and all of them make DoW1 great. Those races all have different builds and strategies. Did you play the game at all ??? I was among the best DoW1 players before I left the game and the only race that felt really bad and unnecessary to me was Dark Eldar. All other races were super unique.
I did, they all have a tactical all-rounder unit that can recieve the same basic wargear upgrades, they all have an assault unit that jumps into melee, they all have a weaponless transport unit, and they all have a strong melee walker at the same tier (t2).
They are just reskins of the same base faction, with some lategame differences.
And drops the mic xD
Yeah, cause they can t work differently with the faction in the background.
And yet, you have people here claiming they did.
Apparently bolter and power armor users played differently then bolter and power armor users with spikes or bolter and power armor users with tits, which only shows further how blind to any kind of flaws DOW1 crowd is, succumbed in their own nostalgia and DoW1 romanticism, which couldn't be further from how it actually was.
I know this is a day old but I'm gonna go ahead and reply to it anyway.
They and technically didn't play differently, SM tacticals, chaos tacticals, and Sister squads were all general combat units, they all acted the same to a point, however they all had different stats, and different weapon upgrades, chaos tacticals could also go invisible.
You cannot make the argument that other races are reskins of other races, when they have different stats, upgrades, and weapon upgrades. Otherwise necron warriors and tau fire warriors are reskins of tacticals, dark eldar warriors, etc. Even though they clearly weren't
I'm really sorry that I'm salty about new Elites Relic announced, and honestly I do appreciate them working on new content, but I often ask myself this:
Are the Elites is the thing that this game need the most right now? Are they really think this will increase playerbase even for an inch? Do they ever ask themselves these questions? Who does coordinate resource management for their team?...
And most hilarious fact about all this is that I literally haven't seen half of the Elite roster of EACH race in-game. I've meet only maybe 3-4 Elites per race at this point. Usually 2, and they are the same every single time. Maybe it would be better idea to balance another half of Elites so we can actually see or use them in-game? But no, let's add another ~8 pointers which will see the light maybe in 1 out of 5 3v3 matches of average players...
Elites and maps are content. People have been literally asking for more content.
This doesn't mean that people wanting more balance (which we keep getting) or other game modes or types of play aren't asking for valid things. But yes, there are people explicitly asking for new ingame content as per the current design. These are the first Elites since launch. We're hardly overburdened with them.
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CANNED_F3TUS
That is not true. You can make each race unique it just takes time and clever minds to do so.
Stoner
There are talks how "most DOW I races were copies of each other" which isn't true as a whole, but has some merit to this idea, and to be completely honest, I don't see this as a bad thing. Nobody gives a ++heresy redacted++ about asymmetric design if it's not fun and negatively impacts balance. We had a discussion a while back about how community driven update for CoH2 considered one of the best patches in update history, and players stated that this patch removed certain amount uniqueness from factions, but the end result was improvement of gameplay. What really matters is if game is fair and fun to play, nothing else.
Excuse me sir, but you really need to refresh your memory, that's not very basic but rather simplest preset type of options here which usually shipped with low quality console ports:
And that's what graphic options should look like in reality for decent PC game:
Katitof
And yet, you have people here claiming they did.
Apparently bolter and power armor users played differently then bolter and power armor users with spikes or bolter and power armor users with tits, which only shows further how blind to any kind of flaws DOW1 crowd is, succumbed in their own nostalgia and DoW1 romanticism, which couldn't be further from how it actually was.
Gorb
@Stoner
Still lacking AA, like I said. Some of those are game tuning options (that have an impact on performance), not actual performance options themselves.
As I said, if you wanted a technical discussion, I'm all for it.
Gorb
I'm not arguing against better options or support. I'm arguing against this need to paint what we have in DoW III as worse than it actually is, coupled with a rather favourable view of whichever previous DoW game the poster in question happens to prefer.
I've had people tell me that the launch of DoW II was technically a smoother launch than that of DoW III. Sorry, but nope. Not even close.
Ace40k
i know you guys will be sick and tired of this reply, but here it goes: i am AGAINST new units for existing races and would rather want they focus all their energy on new races. i wanna have Chaos and IG sooo soooo bad in this game. just imagine seeing a Defiler or Leman Russ in this beautiful game engine!
it already was a big surprise for me when they've announced new elites for the three races we already have. i am not saying i don't like it but it was just a huge (positive) surprise for me. whether they should actually continue putting out new stuff for existing races? again, i am not opposing new stuff but i'd rather prefer getting Chaos instead
Katitof
And what makes you believe they aren't working on new factions for months now?
Ancient ways of one expansion per year do not work anymore for keeping players around.
Only frequent content updates do as players nowadays have a kitten attention span in regards to game, while 10-15 years ago we would play single game for years.
Why would it be any kind of surprise to you?
Elite system as it is, is a PERFECT medium to implement new, meaningful and meta changing content that is easy to actually balance and allows more frequent updates then once a year big expansion.
And chaos is just regular space marines with daemons instead of dreadnoughts and spikes instead of emperor praises, rich lore, but one of more boring choices for actual new faction due to abundance of overlapping equipment with already existing space marines.
If I was to pick new faction, chaos would be no sooner then 3rd place, after something actually unique, like Necrons or Tau.
Ace40k
i appreciate your enthusiasm that Relic can deliver everything at once, Kat, but there are things like opportunity cost: more work on existing races means less work possible on new races. Relic also has only a limited amount of resources, like any developer out there. so the time and energy they waste on new SM elites is less time spent on my beloved Chaos faction
maybe, but they should not go down the LoL/DotA road and just churn out new elites after elites while completely forgetting about the line units aspect of this title. this is not a pure MOBA (even if i enjoy the MOBA elements) but an RTS game first and foremost. you may be down with their idea but i'd like DoWIII to expand on the DoW part instead, that is, the more races the better.
this is the LAST time you defy the Chaos Gods! get out of my sight, loyalist!
Katitof
Again, why isn't that obvious to you?
They were literally crapping content out for CoH2 during first year and then they have hit us with expansion of 2 factions+campaign.
Relic is perfectly capable of doing it.
You don't know the resources relic has, you don't know how much money Sega invests, but given the fact they did aquired Relic in the first place, its easy to assume its not just a few dimes, while milking them to death, EA publishing style.
Relic RTS are always objective based. Regular annihilation was never an option and elites are simply as important as line units now. They are strong, but they are not overpowering.
Go use your 2-3 EP elite alone against 3 basic squads, see how well you'll do.
I fully agree that actual DoW is about faction variety first and foremost, but relic have proven time and time again in the past that they have no problem giving out smaller content and new factions.
Mon-keigh fooled again, objective accomplished, retreating into the webway.
Martin
I decided to count the amount of active different units you can have on the field in dow1(soulstorm) and dow3. I counted 3 elite units as well since they are as many as you can field in a match but not all 9.
space marines have 4 less units, having 18 line units in dow1(not counting skull probe) but only 11 line units and 3 elites in dow3. (14 total)
orks have 3 less units, having 16 line units in dow1, but only 10 line units and 3 elites in dow3.(13 total)
eldar have 4 less units, having 17 units in dow1, but only 10 line units and 3 elites in dow3. (13 total)
All factions however have 6 more elites(soon 7) if you count them all, bringing dow3 to a higher number just not within a single match.
Game could definitely use more line units. All tiers could benefit greatly from line units, in particular tier 3 in which only 2 units are unlocked per faction, but also the tier 1 and tier 2 since those have a bigger impact on the game since many matches wont go late game and you can at least still use lower tier units in tier 3 while you cannot make use of the higher tier units in tier 1 2 obviously.
I think it is very important we get more line units because the variety of units that can be fielded in a single match will not increase no matter how many elite units are added (unless the elite system is changed).
I can understand in some ways why relic added so few units beyond just budget tho, since a lot of units in dow1 were only possible to add by giving them a cap on how many you could have, otherwise they just made their lower tier counterparts unneeded. If more line units should be added it needs to be done properly without having to resort to caps in order for units to not become unneeded.
GuruSkippy
@Martin
Do you have compared vDOW1 units with DOW3 ? or DOW1-SS with DOW3 ?
Martin
it is dawn of war soulstorm with dow3, dawn of war vanilla had less units than soulstorm.
GuruSkippy
Then, compare what's comparable.
Compare DOW3 to vDOW1
Katitof
Obviously it did, DoW1 had 3 expansions, each of them added new units.
Its less then fair to compare unit count after 3 expansions to only a base game.
Martin
Both are worth comparing, you can look at vanilla dawn of war if you think that is more fair, but there is also the fact that you can open up soulstorm or dark crusade right now and have more units and ask yourself why you should play dawn of war 3 if it has less. But since it's requested let me have a look at how it compares with vanilla:
dawn of war vanilla spacemarine has 15 line units while dawn of war 3 has 11 line units and 3 elites, makes it 1 unit less.
dawn of war vanilla orks have 13 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it the same amount of on field units.
dawn of war vanilla eldar have 15 line units, and dawn of war 3 has 10 line units and 3 elites, making it 2 less units.
Martin
Also do we actually even know if relic intends to release more line units for dawn of war 3 and not just elites? saying it has not been out for long and it will get later is fine and all but if it does not get later it does not matter how long we wait. I skipped on dawn of war 2, did it receive more line units over time?
Katitof
Following that logic, Men of War: Assault Squad 2 should be best RTS ever made.
However its mediocre at best.
Number of units does not equal fun, especially if every second one is either redundant or hard capped at 1, completely violating the whole point of line unit.
2 variants of stock dreadnoughts, completely redundant.
2 variants of land speeders, completely redundant.
Builders and skull probes, while in DoW3 builder does both.
Land raider, grey knights, both terminators and apothecaries were much more akin to DoW3 elites then actual line units, having limit and all.
GuruSkippy
Yes, DOW2:CR introduced the weirdboy, the librarian, wraithguards, tyrant guard and genestealers to existing races
And DOW2:R introduced the battlewagon, the hive tyrant, the autarch, the land raider redeemer, noise marines to existing races
Martin
@Katitof
It's cute how you automatically go into anti-hater mode because I say something negative about the game compared to previous games. Number of units is far from the only deciding factor, if it was I would be playing ultimate apocalypse mod not dawn of war 3. But more unit variety is definitely something I think would help make game more fun for me and others, especially at the casual level where you just wanna get in a game and build a bunch of cool units.
Katitof
@Martin I'm merely pointing out DoW1 redundancies, where they literally kept throwing in units for the sake of having more units and the fact that you can't compare RTS with multiple expansions to one without any expansion yet.
Martin
but you can, I just did! I don't have to play fair katikof what makes you think that! :P
I adressed those redundancies in my post myself already and said I would only like to see new units if added in a good way and not the way you had to add caps for them in dawn of war 1 just to not make existing units completely unneeded. Would you not like more line units katikof?
Katitof
Ofc I would and its to be expected when new armies will arrive.
You yourself have said "why play dow3 when dow1 had more units", which is not only unfair, but rather pointless statement in the first place.
Martin
I think that despite dawn of war vanilla having roughly the same amount of units, the amount of line units really feels like less in comparison to that because of the elite system taking away from line unit variety. It's very noticeable when you tech up in dawn of war 1 to get all these lategame units and ultimate units and fancy upgrades but since elite system takes a lot of that it just feels like unlocking a couple units not an entirely new tier. I don't want the elites put back into line units roster, I think it's a good system but I would like to see additional line units.
jonoliveira12
I would like for Relic to add units that complememt the existing faction rosters, and keep all the units they would like capped, as Elites.
Eldar could use some Swooping Hawks as jump troops (though not in melee) and Warwalkers as light support vehicles for infantry assault (maybe making them have 1 shuriken cannon + sensor pack to detect stealth, but have them apply supression only on a sungle target, instead of AoE).
SM doesn't really meed more units, but more Wargear, Squad Leader upgrades, and vehicle Conversion Kits, that allow their already good line-up, to become more versatile with each Tier.
Orkz could benefit from something like giving Boyz mobs an upgrade that gives them a new squad member with a Burna, that allows them to slow the enemy they are pursuing, and Grot tanks.
Wikkyd
I know this is a day old but I'm gonna go ahead and reply to it anyway.
They and technically didn't play differently, SM tacticals, chaos tacticals, and Sister squads were all general combat units, they all acted the same to a point, however they all had different stats, and different weapon upgrades, chaos tacticals could also go invisible.
You cannot make the argument that other races are reskins of other races, when they have different stats, upgrades, and weapon upgrades. Otherwise necron warriors and tau fire warriors are reskins of tacticals, dark eldar warriors, etc. Even though they clearly weren't
Stoner
I'm really sorry that I'm salty about new Elites Relic announced, and honestly I do appreciate them working on new content, but I often ask myself this:
Are the Elites is the thing that this game need the most right now? Are they really think this will increase playerbase even for an inch? Do they ever ask themselves these questions? Who does coordinate resource management for their team?...
And most hilarious fact about all this is that I literally haven't seen half of the Elite roster of EACH race in-game. I've meet only maybe 3-4 Elites per race at this point. Usually 2, and they are the same every single time. Maybe it would be better idea to balance another half of Elites so we can actually see or use them in-game? But no, let's add another ~8 pointers which will see the light maybe in 1 out of 5 3v3 matches of average players...
Gorb
Elites and maps are content. People have been literally asking for more content.
This doesn't mean that people wanting more balance (which we keep getting) or other game modes or types of play aren't asking for valid things. But yes, there are people explicitly asking for new ingame content as per the current design. These are the first Elites since launch. We're hardly overburdened with them.
Opinion post.