@Stoner said:
As I said thousand times already and nobody can counter argument it: Why we don't see huge spike in winrates if particularly SM or any other racial mechanic is OP right now? We had huge spike of winrates when Eldar mechanics were broken on release and Orks later. Now they balanced all 3, and prev. patch didn't indicate anything out of order. Current patch barely touched balance, it almost the same with just 30% hp slapped on ALL infantry of all races. Why concerns?
Where are you getting data for this claim? Surely 4 days of data is not enough in any case.
It seems to me SM have benefited disproportionately from the 30% health buff as the durability of TMs + reinforce speed is making them very hard to deal with early game, especially if you are Eldar. And that is after I thought SM were slightly too OP already.
so rainbow you actually agree with me, with the posts i did about this. i can not win asingle game playing as eldar any more. i just cant get to kill even one tact unit. they have enough hp to run back and reinforce. so after like 5 mins he has already 4-5 tacts (and dropod and banner and ironclad with flamer) and i have no way to stop them. i just try to avoid them by running around. because killing 5 tacts (or 3-4 tacts and 1-2 assault) is impossible with eldar. avengers have no damage output. reapers get nutralised by drop pod or assaults ... only banshees might help but they need energy to build and when the first devastator comes out they have no chance...
only solution i have seen is ranger spam . but again it can keep tacts at bay but then you go tier 2 as eldar and have like 6 ranger units that dont do anything against SM vehicles. also it destroys the game flow for me as i dont like playing single unit spam.
the solution for me would be either nerf SM drop pods (make them be bought from building) or banner .
OR make avengers deal more damage , either as damage increase or weapon cooldown lower
The point I always try to bring up is just how the SM pods/banner have such utility due to the game mode of powercore. As eldar you can't build a forward webway or multiple webways (they can't teleport in t1 anymore) or else you have no power to make req gens or upgrade infantry. Ork Waagh just got nerfed hard there's no way around that and you can see it coming. Anyway on to my point in a game mode where to obj is to blow up 3 buildings once SM has initiative it's extremely difficult to fight back because of the fact the toughest units can just be deployed and buffed anywhere you choose, a lot of times when used right there's very little the other player can do even in mirrors, then the later tier banner comes down gives out great buffs along with gabe's doctrine the drop pods will reinforce for free right near the primary objective of this game mode...how can one force this off? I am speaking from a higher skill 1v1 perspective btw idk might be different in 3v3 or casual play. (PS why the hell do drop pod users get 100 req refund per pod, I heard the reason about them leaving scrap but is that always worth 100 req, and how do eldar benefit from this? They just get screwed entirely)
@PaperBaG said:
(PS why the hell do drop pod users get 100 req refund per pod, I heard the reason about them leaving scrap but is that always worth 100 req, and how do eldar benefit from this? They just get screwed entirely)
This bug was fixed a few patches ago, but they didn't state it in a patch note. It's here again ?
@frumpylumps said:
Balance team doesn't seem to play the game or know wtf they are doing and are overly reliant on the forums and "top players"' for feedback.
That is with every game though.
This doesn't only apply to Relic.
Developers will nerf a character(s) crazy hard to the point were the character isn't viable completely destroying the character, and literally no one want to pick or use them and they basically become a dead character(s), all because some people/person who sits on their a$$ for hours on end and study the game found one OP strategy.
It's annoying when devs just only look at what the "top players" are doing especially since most of the people who bought the game aren't in the "top players" and just want to play and have fun.
Posted this in the other thread if you are interested in this problem (and it is a problem):
Two top level players:
You got all the problems with SM balance in this match - TM spam, decisive drop pods and deathstorm drop pods, banner drops. They really need to be looked at.
I think a big difference between Eldar/Ork racial mechanics and SM racial mechanics is that SM have a much lower preparation burden. The ability to disrupt the enemy and possibly force them to concede the field without much warning gives far better return on effort than an Ork Waaagh! or Eldar FoF web does.
@IntoTheRainbow said:
Posted this in the other thread if you are interested in this problem (and it is a problem):
Two top level players:
You got all the problems with SM balance in this match - TM spam, decisive drop pods and deathstorm drop pods, banner drops. They really need to be looked at.
That game is a great example. The SM player played very well and pulled off some very good flanks but when they were outmaneuvered could usually rely on drop-pods and their standard to avoid serious losses.
@frumpylumps said:
Balance team doesn't seem to play the game or know wtf they are doing and are overly reliant on the forums and "top players"' for feedback.
Why not work within the system? What do you think of SM racial mechanics?
Yet again, I see another wave of people calling SM faction's powers "free".
Eldars got +1 to speed to every unit since it's built and ability to move their buildings as well as to regenerate their shields in FoF vs 1 droppod with 500 shield and 450 of shield per unit from Standart each with 240 seconds of cooldown (on T1 = "for free"). For the 2nd droppod and orbital canons from the standart eldars receive Webway linking and ability to teleport webways. For the 3rd droppod and super ability of the standart to heal, Eldars get the only webway link that is not restricted to the building type.
Guys, it's not about the "free" part, it's more about T3.
@Ololo111 said:
Yet again, I see another wave of people calling SM faction's powers "free".
Eldars got +1 to speed to every unit since it's built and ability to move their buildings as well as to regenerate their shields in FoF vs 1 droppod with 500 shield and 450 of shield per unit from Standart each with 240 seconds of cooldown (on T1 = "for free"). For the 2nd droppod and orbital canons from the standart eldars receive Webway linking and ability to teleport webways. For the 3rd droppod and super ability of the standart to heal, Eldars get the only webway link that is not restricted to the building type.
Guys, it's not about the "free" part, it's more about T3.
See, there is the difference here.
Eldar stuff is all fluff.
You can't use +1 default speed as an argument while it was proven that without it the faction is completely non functional as you can't afford to spam WWGs everywhere.
Shield regen near WWG, again, is NOT a benefit, but a MANDATORY side building, Eldar can NOT come back after skirmish without it, while SM is perfectly fine if you don't use banner or pods.
Moving buildings got almost zero impact on combat.
You know what does? Again, pods and banner. As well as waagh towers ofc.
SM stuff is a game changer.
Eldar is fluff that doesn't scale well.
So you do have a bit of a point there in regards to scaling, but base eldar mechanics have very little impact on combat and require initial preparation which costs resources, while in SM case its just click of a button to automatically win 1st engagement.
@GuruSkippy said:
Here are the nerf I would like :
1st drop pod and banner start on 1 min cooldown
drop pods from 5 to 6 sec to land
if banner is decapped, the SM player has to recap it with a unit, it doesn't autorecap anymore
1 min CD is good, 5-6 seconds is bad, I dodge them just by hearing them deploy.
Third point of yours, yes but I'd like it to not be decapped whileI have units under the banner as well, having a random worker take control from 10 tacticals is just silly.
@Ololo111 said:
Yet again, I see another wave of people calling SM faction's powers "free".
Eldars got +1 to speed to every unit since it's built and ability to move their buildings as well as to regenerate their shields in FoF vs 1 droppod with 500 shield and 450 of shield per unit from Standart each with 240 seconds of cooldown (on T1 = "for free"). For the 2nd droppod and orbital canons from the standart eldars receive Webway linking and ability to teleport webways. For the 3rd droppod and super ability of the standart to heal, Eldars get the only webway link that is not restricted to the building type.
Guys, it's not about the "free" part, it's more about T3.
T3 certainly makes it nastier but Deathstorms are a major offender in T2 (and were put to good use in the video).
The Eldar comparison doesn't hold up well. 75% of the health of Eldar infantry units is shield; without the boosted shield regeneration from FoF Ork and SM units would reinforce far faster than Eldar could regenerate, making Eldar shields a disadvantage. In addition, the T3 Webway Gate links are useless. A Warrior Portal is cheaper than a Webway Gate (200/0 vs. 125/25) and you don't have to worry about all your units losing their buffs when it's destroyed. More to the point, all of these abilities can be scouted during set-up and do not have almost instantaneous effects.
@Katitof said:
Shield regen near WWG, again, is NOT a benefit, but a MANDATORY side building, Eldar can NOT come back after skirmish without it, while
The mandatory part might as well being provided by HQ since the start FOR FREE. You want to project it - pay for that.
@Katitof said:
You can't use +1 default speed as an argument while it was proven that without it the faction is completely non functional as you can't afford to spam WWGs everywhere.
You can't attack Eldars in anything but blobs, because you can't run away from them for this very +1 speed. That boost is a threat by itself. I won't say they shouldn't have it with 35P for the Webway, but, it should be well-accounted how much it gives with 25P ones right now.
By the way, have you actually seen an Eldar player getting hit with grenade in early game? I didn't since that very bonus was applied (if it wasn't comming from an unpredicted direction, like, you know, droppod).
@Katitof said:
Moving buildings got almost zero impact on combat.
Sorry, I would answer that in post to Svanh.
You know what does? Again, pods and banner. As well as waagh towers ofc.
SM stuff is a game changer.
Eldar is fluff that doesn't scale well.
So you do have a bit of a point there in regards to scaling, but base eldar mechanics have very little impact on combat and require initial preparation which costs resources, while in SM case its just click of a button to automatically win 1st engagement.
You're missing how these faction bonuses linked. It's nearly perfect, almost like Ork's one, while SM's banner and droppods are functions by itself (indeed, they may be linked efectively since T3, but since T3 only, so it's, yet again, T3 in question).
@Svanh said:
T3 certainly makes it nastier but Deathstorms are a major offender in T2 (and were put to good use in the video).
The Eldar comparison doesn't hold up well. 75% of the health of Eldar infantry units is shield; without the boosted shield regeneration from FoF Ork and SM units would reinforce far faster than Eldar could regenerate, making Eldar shields a disadvantage. In addition, the T3 Webway Gate links are useless. A Warrior Portal is cheaper than a Webway Gate (200/0 vs. 125/25) and you don't have to worry about all your units losing their buffs when it's destroyed. More to the point, all of these abilities can be scouted during set-up and do not have almost instantaneous effects.
Good points. I would start from the last.
Eldars got these very droppods SM have in unlimited number since the start.
Warrior Portal doesn't stops it production while being relocated. So, when it's 10 seconds left before the unit is spawned, you can set it to be relocated just like with droppod to where you have sight.
It's 200R vs 240 seconds of cooldown, multiplied as many times as you have resourses\APM's, available since T1 and can't be canceled with anything, but ill-fated droppods. On the time factor: it's 10 seconds to relocate WP vs 5 seconds to deploy droppod (you can spot it since the first seconds, if you have detector in the area). Not to say it provides reinforcement point, just like pods of DoW2.
On shields: those very shields allow Eldars to fight at full capacity untill it's depleted and better preserve on sustaining all-in punches (Scout Snipers lose 4 models currently on Stormboy's suicide attack on T0, and DA's would only lose 1+shield without doctrine). While I'd say it's 66% of their total health, other units will lose in damage while losing it. And reinforcing SM and Orks especially cost you resourses which could be spent on newer units as Eldars, not to say it requires you to return to the building, while it's way more easier to return into FoF. But, indeed, Eldars are losing blobbing capacity with how their shields work.
Web-linking should, supposedly, be working great with regenerating shields, buuuut, it doesn't seems so to me. It's nowhere close to what 2 additional Waaagh Towers provides or 3 droppods total and especially T3 banner effect.
So, yet again, I see no problem in intial bonuses - if you can't deal with a single droppod once per 240 seconds.. I would refrain from commenting on this. It's T2\T3 problem solely for Eldars, nothing is wrong with SM's or Orks.
Deathstorm Drop Pod really is the icing on the cake of SM OP abilities. It's so powerful and disruptive it will force almost any non-late game army to retreat entirely. It's like a stationary Orbital Bombardment that SM players can whip out easily if they need to defend OR attack an army. Neither Orks nor Eldar have anything that comes even close to its attacking and defensive potential. Eldritch Storm is already much weaker than Orbital Bombardment and SM have secondary weapon in the DS.
I would propose a couple small changes at the least -
Plant the Standard no longer causes stun and knockback
Deathstorm duration to be reduced, say by 5 seconds
@Bigamo said:
They hey are designed to be op, to give SM a fighting chance. Take a look on ALL SM unit rooster. What units didn't suck for price? Well, Deathstorms (that is designed around that idea of strong pushes gameplay), Tacticals that had their DPS a BIT overbuffed, imo and can get a bit of a push back being the tankish unit they are supposed to be and probably Land Speeders.
**Other than that ALL SM units are worst than they ork and eldar counterparts. (yes, rangers are better than snipers). **
**Other than that the SM early Elites are the most meh in the game, they are ok, but none are close to stuff like the ork and eldar elites. **
What SM have for themselves when you take the Tactical Spam out of the equation are their racial mechanics.
This is just wrong. SM early elites are meh yousay? Arguably they are the best in the game. You seriously think Killteam is worse than Striking Scorpions? I mean, seriously?!
Also Diomedes is infamous as being ridiculously good for his points cost.
They could link the use of the capsules and the standard to the armory, that is to say, without armory there are neither capsules nor banner and that way delayed its use in the first confrontations.
So first engagements incoming, ork vs sm. The sm got no armory therefore no banner and no pods. The ork uses his super waaaghh ( and guess what he needs no armory ), running across the map willing to kill everything. What will the sm do without his banner and pods? Nothing he can only hide in his base and cry and hope that the ork will not find him....
@Spirit said:
So first engagements incoming, ork vs sm. The sm got no armory therefore no banner and no pods. The ork uses his super waaaghh ( and guess what he needs no armory ), running across the map willing to kill everything. What will the sm do without his banner and pods? Nothing he can only hide in his base and cry and hope that the ork will not find him....
You can't have waagh buff on first engagement, unless you actively avoid engagement.
You no longer can build tower out of the gate and it takes longer to build it now.
@Spirit said:
So first engagements incoming, ork vs sm. The sm got no armory therefore no banner and no pods. The ork uses his super waaaghh ( and guess what he needs no armory ), running across the map willing to kill everything. What will the sm do without his banner and pods? Nothing he can only hide in his base and cry and hope that the ork will not find him....
You're still stuck in old ork patch dude, 1st waaagh tower has been delayed (and waaagh nerfed)
Waaagh tower build time = 30sec,
buildable only at 0'48'' (so over at 1'18''),
20sec waaagh cast time
= 1'38''
Barracks build time = 30sec,
buildable from the start, (let's add 30sec for servitor travel time)
over at 1'00''
you add 40sec for first TSM in drop pods if barrack is mandatory for first drop pod use
= 1'40''
No im not but i faced and play with the best ork there is in my eyes, tpokotanaka. He knows how to use the waaghh very well to his advantage. He doesnt use it just so ( maybe you wanna check out the replay that i uploaded on gamereplays, i played with tpoko vs vindicare and dadoki in 2v2, see yourself what im talking about ).
He was rolling like a wave over vindi and doki, all their pods and banners were useless.
@Katitof i said first "engagements" not first engagement.
oh, just realized that salvasc said armory, not barrack.
It's not ok with armory, I'd link it to barrack or doctrine chapel.
If one is built, you have access to drop pods and standard. And if your barracks and doctrine chapels are all destroyed, you can still have acces to drop pod, à la waaagh tower when destroyed not pushing you back in tech.
Actually, I think that it's the best solution :
It will solve the very early proxy barrack build in your face, making it harder to accomplish, because you won't have a drop pod and a standard to defend while building it.
And it won't affect anything after that.
@Spirit said:
So first engagements incoming, ork vs sm. The sm got no armory therefore no banner and no pods. The ork uses his super waaaghh ( and guess what he needs no armory ), running across the map willing to kill everything. What will the sm do without his banner and pods? Nothing he can only hide in his base and cry and hope that the ork will not find him....
What's the point of your comment as no-one is proposing that drop pods or Standard are taken away completely, that would be ridiculous.
A small nerf would be welcome. Plant the Standard shouldn't stun and Deathstorm pod shouldn't last as long, for example.
Limiting the capsules by Arsenal would be an interesting solution, that is, leaving the same system of capsule numbers by Tier but being unlockable with the construction of arsenals. Example: 1 capsule = 1 Arsenal, 2 capsules = 2 arsenals, etc ... And to be fair with the SM, the banner could be allowed as and now, without modifications or need to build anything. Thus, just as the Orks and Eldars have to build towers or portals, SMs have to spend on arsenals.
Can't you upload the video properly to YT or something? This is such a tiresome way of watching a replay.
This doesn't change the point about drop pods/plant the standard being OP. And sure I would agree with you, the Ranger spam - if it is as broken as feared - might need nerfing. But I need to see more of this than just relying on one replay of yours. On the other hand we have multiple people here saying the same thing about SM drop pods/plant the standard needing fixing, and multiple replays as examples of these abilities changing the destiny of a 1 vs 1.
Can't you upload the video properly to YT or something? This is such a tiresome way of watching a replay.
This doesn't change the point about drop pods/plant the standard being OP. And sure I would agree with you, the Ranger spam - if it is as broken as feared - might need nerfing. But I need to see more of this than just relying on one replay of yours. On the other hand we have multiple people here saying the same thing about SM drop pods/plant the standard needing fixing, and multiple replays as examples of these abilities changing the destiny of a 1 vs 1.
Take out SM tactical spam, what remains to SM?
A need to use more then one unit before late T2, just like 2 remaining factions?
When DA spam existed, it got butchered completely, DAs and doctrines got nerfed hard.
Can you foresee what is going to happen to tacticals if they'll remain as easy option to play as they are when doctrine stacked?
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Comments
AlienHack
so rainbow you actually agree with me, with the posts i did about this. i can not win asingle game playing as eldar any more. i just cant get to kill even one tact unit. they have enough hp to run back and reinforce. so after like 5 mins he has already 4-5 tacts (and dropod and banner and ironclad with flamer) and i have no way to stop them. i just try to avoid them by running around. because killing 5 tacts (or 3-4 tacts and 1-2 assault) is impossible with eldar. avengers have no damage output. reapers get nutralised by drop pod or assaults ... only banshees might help but they need energy to build and when the first devastator comes out they have no chance...
only solution i have seen is ranger spam . but again it can keep tacts at bay but then you go tier 2 as eldar and have like 6 ranger units that dont do anything against SM vehicles. also it destroys the game flow for me as i dont like playing single unit spam.
the solution for me would be either nerf SM drop pods (make them be bought from building) or banner .
OR make avengers deal more damage , either as damage increase or weapon cooldown lower
PaperBaG
The point I always try to bring up is just how the SM pods/banner have such utility due to the game mode of powercore. As eldar you can't build a forward webway or multiple webways (they can't teleport in t1 anymore) or else you have no power to make req gens or upgrade infantry. Ork Waagh just got nerfed hard there's no way around that and you can see it coming. Anyway on to my point in a game mode where to obj is to blow up 3 buildings once SM has initiative it's extremely difficult to fight back because of the fact the toughest units can just be deployed and buffed anywhere you choose, a lot of times when used right there's very little the other player can do even in mirrors, then the later tier banner comes down gives out great buffs along with gabe's doctrine the drop pods will reinforce for free right near the primary objective of this game mode...how can one force this off? I am speaking from a higher skill 1v1 perspective btw idk might be different in 3v3 or casual play. (PS why the hell do drop pod users get 100 req refund per pod, I heard the reason about them leaving scrap but is that always worth 100 req, and how do eldar benefit from this? They just get screwed entirely)
GuruSkippy
This bug was fixed a few patches ago, but they didn't state it in a patch note. It's here again ?
frumpylumps
Balance team doesn't seem to play the game or know wtf they are doing and are overly reliant on the forums and "top players"' for feedback.
Deadlywest
That is with every game though.
This doesn't only apply to Relic.
Developers will nerf a character(s) crazy hard to the point were the character isn't viable completely destroying the character, and literally no one want to pick or use them and they basically become a dead character(s), all because some people/person who sits on their a$$ for hours on end and study the game found one OP strategy.
It's annoying when devs just only look at what the "top players" are doing especially since most of the people who bought the game aren't in the "top players" and just want to play and have fun.
IntoTheRainbow
Posted this in the other thread if you are interested in this problem (and it is a problem):
Two top level players:
You got all the problems with SM balance in this match - TM spam, decisive drop pods and deathstorm drop pods, banner drops. They really need to be looked at.
Svanh
I think a big difference between Eldar/Ork racial mechanics and SM racial mechanics is that SM have a much lower preparation burden. The ability to disrupt the enemy and possibly force them to concede the field without much warning gives far better return on effort than an Ork Waaagh! or Eldar FoF web does.
That game is a great example. The SM player played very well and pulled off some very good flanks but when they were outmaneuvered could usually rely on drop-pods and their standard to avoid serious losses.
Why not work within the system? What do you think of SM racial mechanics?
Ololo111
Yet again, I see another wave of people calling SM faction's powers "free".
Eldars got +1 to speed to every unit since it's built and ability to move their buildings as well as to regenerate their shields in FoF vs 1 droppod with 500 shield and 450 of shield per unit from Standart each with 240 seconds of cooldown (on T1 = "for free"). For the 2nd droppod and orbital canons from the standart eldars receive Webway linking and ability to teleport webways. For the 3rd droppod and super ability of the standart to heal, Eldars get the only webway link that is not restricted to the building type.
Guys, it's not about the "free" part, it's more about T3.
Katitof
See, there is the difference here.
Eldar stuff is all fluff.
You can't use +1 default speed as an argument while it was proven that without it the faction is completely non functional as you can't afford to spam WWGs everywhere.
Shield regen near WWG, again, is NOT a benefit, but a MANDATORY side building, Eldar can NOT come back after skirmish without it, while SM is perfectly fine if you don't use banner or pods.
Moving buildings got almost zero impact on combat.
You know what does? Again, pods and banner. As well as waagh towers ofc.
SM stuff is a game changer.
Eldar is fluff that doesn't scale well.
So you do have a bit of a point there in regards to scaling, but base eldar mechanics have very little impact on combat and require initial preparation which costs resources, while in SM case its just click of a button to automatically win 1st engagement.
Wikkyd
1 min CD is good, 5-6 seconds is bad, I dodge them just by hearing them deploy.
Third point of yours, yes but I'd like it to not be decapped whileI have units under the banner as well, having a random worker take control from 10 tacticals is just silly.
Svanh
T3 certainly makes it nastier but Deathstorms are a major offender in T2 (and were put to good use in the video).
The Eldar comparison doesn't hold up well. 75% of the health of Eldar infantry units is shield; without the boosted shield regeneration from FoF Ork and SM units would reinforce far faster than Eldar could regenerate, making Eldar shields a disadvantage. In addition, the T3 Webway Gate links are useless. A Warrior Portal is cheaper than a Webway Gate (200/0 vs. 125/25) and you don't have to worry about all your units losing their buffs when it's destroyed. More to the point, all of these abilities can be scouted during set-up and do not have almost instantaneous effects.
Ololo111
The mandatory part might as well being provided by HQ since the start FOR FREE. You want to project it - pay for that.
You can't attack Eldars in anything but blobs, because you can't run away from them for this very +1 speed. That boost is a threat by itself. I won't say they shouldn't have it with 35P for the Webway, but, it should be well-accounted how much it gives with 25P ones right now.
By the way, have you actually seen an Eldar player getting hit with grenade in early game? I didn't since that very bonus was applied (if it wasn't comming from an unpredicted direction, like, you know, droppod).
Sorry, I would answer that in post to Svanh.
You're missing how these faction bonuses linked. It's nearly perfect, almost like Ork's one, while SM's banner and droppods are functions by itself (indeed, they may be linked efectively since T3, but since T3 only, so it's, yet again, T3 in question).
Good points. I would start from the last.
Eldars got these very droppods SM have in unlimited number since the start.
Warrior Portal doesn't stops it production while being relocated. So, when it's 10 seconds left before the unit is spawned, you can set it to be relocated just like with droppod to where you have sight.
It's 200R vs 240 seconds of cooldown, multiplied as many times as you have resourses\APM's, available since T1 and can't be canceled with anything, but ill-fated droppods. On the time factor: it's 10 seconds to relocate WP vs 5 seconds to deploy droppod (you can spot it since the first seconds, if you have detector in the area). Not to say it provides reinforcement point, just like pods of DoW2.
On shields: those very shields allow Eldars to fight at full capacity untill it's depleted and better preserve on sustaining all-in punches (Scout Snipers lose 4 models currently on Stormboy's suicide attack on T0, and DA's would only lose 1+shield without doctrine). While I'd say it's 66% of their total health, other units will lose in damage while losing it. And reinforcing SM and Orks especially cost you resourses which could be spent on newer units as Eldars, not to say it requires you to return to the building, while it's way more easier to return into FoF. But, indeed, Eldars are losing blobbing capacity with how their shields work.
Web-linking should, supposedly, be working great with regenerating shields, buuuut, it doesn't seems so to me. It's nowhere close to what 2 additional Waaagh Towers provides or 3 droppods total and especially T3 banner effect.
So, yet again, I see no problem in intial bonuses - if you can't deal with a single droppod once per 240 seconds.. I would refrain from commenting on this. It's T2\T3 problem solely for Eldars, nothing is wrong with SM's or Orks.
IntoTheRainbow
Deathstorm Drop Pod really is the icing on the cake of SM OP abilities. It's so powerful and disruptive it will force almost any non-late game army to retreat entirely. It's like a stationary Orbital Bombardment that SM players can whip out easily if they need to defend OR attack an army. Neither Orks nor Eldar have anything that comes even close to its attacking and defensive potential. Eldritch Storm is already much weaker than Orbital Bombardment and SM have secondary weapon in the DS.
I would propose a couple small changes at the least -
Plant the Standard no longer causes stun and knockback
Deathstorm duration to be reduced, say by 5 seconds
This is just wrong. SM early elites are meh yousay? Arguably they are the best in the game. You seriously think Killteam is worse than Striking Scorpions? I mean, seriously?!
Also Diomedes is infamous as being ridiculously good for his points cost.
salvasc
They could link the use of the capsules and the standard to the armory, that is to say, without armory there are neither capsules nor banner and that way delayed its use in the first confrontations.
Spirit
So first engagements incoming, ork vs sm. The sm got no armory therefore no banner and no pods. The ork uses his super waaaghh ( and guess what he needs no armory ), running across the map willing to kill everything. What will the sm do without his banner and pods? Nothing he can only hide in his base and cry and hope that the ork will not find him....
Katitof
You can't have waagh buff on first engagement, unless you actively avoid engagement.
You no longer can build tower out of the gate and it takes longer to build it now.
GuruSkippy
You're still stuck in old ork patch dude, 1st waaagh tower has been delayed (and waaagh nerfed)
Waaagh tower build time = 30sec,
buildable only at 0'48'' (so over at 1'18''),
20sec waaagh cast time
= 1'38''
Barracks build time = 30sec,
buildable from the start, (let's add 30sec for servitor travel time)
over at 1'00''
you add 40sec for first TSM in drop pods if barrack is mandatory for first drop pod use
= 1'40''
there you are, it's ok
Spirit
No im not but i faced and play with the best ork there is in my eyes, tpokotanaka. He knows how to use the waaghh very well to his advantage. He doesnt use it just so ( maybe you wanna check out the replay that i uploaded on gamereplays, i played with tpoko vs vindicare and dadoki in 2v2, see yourself what im talking about ).
He was rolling like a wave over vindi and doki, all their pods and banners were useless.
@Katitof i said first "engagements" not first engagement.
GuruSkippy
oh, just realized that salvasc said armory, not barrack.
It's not ok with armory, I'd link it to barrack or doctrine chapel.
If one is built, you have access to drop pods and standard. And if your barracks and doctrine chapels are all destroyed, you can still have acces to drop pod, à la waaagh tower when destroyed not pushing you back in tech.
Actually, I think that it's the best solution :
It will solve the very early proxy barrack build in your face, making it harder to accomplish, because you won't have a drop pod and a standard to defend while building it.
And it won't affect anything after that.
IntoTheRainbow
What's the point of your comment as no-one is proposing that drop pods or Standard are taken away completely, that would be ridiculous.
A small nerf would be welcome. Plant the Standard shouldn't stun and Deathstorm pod shouldn't last as long, for example.
Spirit
I never said that anyone said they should be taken away completely, so no idea what you want now.
salvasc
Limiting the capsules by Arsenal would be an interesting solution, that is, leaving the same system of capsule numbers by Tier but being unlockable with the construction of arsenals. Example: 1 capsule = 1 Arsenal, 2 capsules = 2 arsenals, etc ... And to be fair with the SM, the banner could be allowed as and now, without modifications or need to build anything. Thus, just as the Orks and Eldars have to build towers or portals, SMs have to spend on arsenals.
It would be fair.
IntoTheRainbow
Can't you upload the video properly to YT or something? This is such a tiresome way of watching a replay.
This doesn't change the point about drop pods/plant the standard being OP. And sure I would agree with you, the Ranger spam - if it is as broken as feared - might need nerfing. But I need to see more of this than just relying on one replay of yours. On the other hand we have multiple people here saying the same thing about SM drop pods/plant the standard needing fixing, and multiple replays as examples of these abilities changing the destiny of a 1 vs 1.
Katitof
A need to use more then one unit before late T2, just like 2 remaining factions?
When DA spam existed, it got butchered completely, DAs and doctrines got nerfed hard.
Can you foresee what is going to happen to tacticals if they'll remain as easy option to play as they are when doctrine stacked?