Falcons underperforming (2v2/3v3)

Thunderhost

As the title implies, I find that falcons are very underwhelming. Carrying capacity is too low, damage is less than desireable and mobility is so-so.
Thoughts?

HohesHaus

The only solution is to split the balance into 3 modes.
The balance has to be a different in 1v1
Units that are decent in 1v1 are crappy in 2v2 or 3v3.
If you buff or nerf them, you ruin the balance for 2v2 or 3v3.
There has NEVER been a RTS that has a good balance among all modes. Look at SC2. It rocks in 1v1 but as soon as you play teamgames it sucks hell.

tritol

first thing this guy above me is right half of the changes 3v3 needs would completely kill 1v1

second thing transports are not supposed to deal damage in this game, I think even trukks are joke, but they are transports not tanks soo ...
speed isnt super awesome but you have small bonus in being skimmer, its not much but you can avoid some natural blocks in maps and deploy wherever you want (I play 3v3 most of my games so I surely know there are spots where you can use it)

transport capacity sure is low but you are transporting not 2 models but 10 and getting 4--6 squads somewhere, where your enemy thinks he is save is good enough (that 3v3 circle map with gap between bot and top resource point is perfect example)

last thing only reason why you should ever want to use transports is because they can reinforce you anywhere you are, thats the only reason why you have them, thats why they suck as a transport, thats why they deal no damage, its just mobile barracks building

Thunderhost

@tritol Are you telling me they have a 4/6 squad capacity? I only seem able to get 2 squads into them..

tritol

no no it fits only 2, but I meant that you surely have more than 1 transport be it trukk or falcon, because 1 can never support your army fully and when you are not assaulting something and you have few falcons left you can just use them to harass ..

space marines have drop pods or ASM so they dont care but dropping bunch of banshees or something behind your opponents lines can be nasty surprise and 2-4 falcons are exactly what you can use for that, I always have few lying around

esleg

They are actually the best anti-infantry unit in the game.. They can rip an entire infantry army to shreds with just 1 of them.

But ye in 3v3 don't use them, transition into wraiths/recall instead. I'd rather have a WG and a WB on the field than a single falcon or fireprism.

It makes me giggle thinking some fgt is just jiggling his little falcon around and I can just charge it or push it back endlessly with wraithguard shots, to which it'll die in only 1-2 volleys..

In 1v1 just going for early WG with doctrines is not bad too and will probably catch the usual newb (or 'experienced but predictable' player) off guard as his little '1 unit savior' will just be pushed off or destroyed.

1 unit isn't supposed to turn the tide of a battle either but Falcons kind of give you that noobish utility.. they absolutely rip infantry units to shreds in the right situations.

It's just that as usual people don't know how to play well and they watch people who aren't really that great and/or learn very slow. If you understand how it works it isn't hard to do this stuff at all. Eldar have actually one of the best lategames possible but I've never seen anyone (except me) using it properly and mirroring it.

Svanh

@esleg said:
They are actually the best anti-infantry unit in the game.. They can rip an entire infantry army to shreds with just 1 of them.

But ye in 3v3 don't use them, transition into wraiths/recall instead. I'd rather have a WG and a WB on the field than a single falcon or fireprism.

It makes me giggle thinking some fgt is just jiggling his little falcon around and I can just charge it or push it back endlessly with wraithguard shots, to which it'll die in only 1-2 volleys..

In 1v1 just going for early WG with doctrines is not bad too and will probably catch the usual newb (or 'experienced but predictable' player) off guard as his little '1 unit savior' will just be pushed off or destroyed.

1 unit isn't supposed to turn the tide of a battle either but Falcons kind of give you that noobish utility.. they absolutely rip infantry units to shreds in the right situations.

It's just that as usual people don't know how to play well and they watch people who aren't really that great and/or learn very slow. If you understand how it works it isn't hard to do this stuff at all. Eldar have actually one of the best lategames possible but I've never seen anyone (except me) using it properly and mirroring it.

What do you use in lategame? I agree that it's quite good, just wanted to see if I'd missed anything.

esleg

I go for wraith units and don't just spam wraithguard blobs (not sure why many simpletons end up doing that, almost like the same as spamming only Dire Avengers), transition to wraith blades and recycle units as needed. A good general army comp for lategame is Reapers, Banshees, Elites in support and wraith units to crush the enemy offensively. Get re-call upgrades if possible/needed, then get your 9pt Wraithknight on the field for infinite recall and a good heavy chaser/building destroyer. It's probably one of the strongest late games available for a player who knows how to manage it. 2 WB units with recall can easily charge 2 dreadnoughts (or charge grav tanks) take them out, do massive damage if the enemy is unprepared, then phase out. WG's can also help a lot in the background the enemy does not tie them up. Use specific doctrines for your specific playstyle.
If game lasts a long time >45 minutes then consider mixing in Fire prisms and/or Falcon transports sooner to harass their resource gatherers or harm their infrastructure if nothing else is working.
I am more of a macro player, but it works pretty well. In early game focusing purely on ranger spam or banshee spam with doctrines makes you pretty much either win or defend easily without even trying much, just keep shields up and manage them well.

HohesHaus

@esleg said:
I go for wraith units and don't just spam wraithguard blobs (not sure why many simpletons end up doing that, almost like the same as spamming only Dire Avengers), transition to wraith blades and recycle units as needed. A good general army comp for lategame is Reapers, Banshees, Elites in support and wraith units to crush the enemy offensively. Get re-call upgrades if possible/needed, then get your 9pt Wraithknight on the field for infinite recall and a good heavy chaser/building destroyer. It's probably one of the strongest late games available for a player who knows how to manage it. 2 WB units with recall can easily charge 2 dreadnoughts (or charge grav tanks) take them out, do massive damage if the enemy is unprepared, then phase out. WG's can also help a lot in the background the enemy does not tie them up. Use specific doctrines for your specific playstyle.
If game lasts a long time >45 minutes then consider mixing in Fire prisms and/or Falcon transports sooner to harass their resource gatherers or harm their infrastructure if nothing else is working.
I am more of a macro player, but it works pretty well. In early game focusing purely on ranger spam or banshee spam with doctrines makes you pretty much either win or defend easily without even trying much, just keep shields up and manage them well.

I won't deny that, but the whole shield regeneration makes the wraith units worthless. If you recall them you have to regenerate at least 1.000 or more shield points. Which takes so much time, that the damage you have done, will be negated by the ressource income of the enemy. It's an uphill fight - Eldar need a way higher shield regenaration. Either through upgrades or it scales with escalation phases. But puny 20 - 25 shield per second in escalation phase 2 or even 3 is way too low.

Guziol

Wraith units regain all their shields when they recall.

esleg

^^ Yep and also this can be used much better by microing to put the new units to work instantly or recycles close to the battlefield. It makes sense however that those upgrades were always there for a reason, even if you don't want to pair this specific strategy with elites or doctrines.

The grav tanks and vypers can serve their purpose, but mainly in 1v1 balance or certain situations. Usually vyper blobs are less than effective otherwise. If a player gets beaten by these they usually just didn't make basic AT infantry and target them.

Also, the upgrades are costly, but it's better to eventually get both later on if your wraithknight will fall and retain some recall utility. . In a big lategame you can afford to make 2 infinity portals to double output/recall, or even start mixing in fire prisms or falcons. Eldar control the field way easier once you understand how it all works. You can still be defeated but that is obviously the main macro/staying power of Eldar, not a nerfed grav tank that takes many shots to kill 1 heavy unit.

HohesHaus

@esleg said:
^^ Yep and also this can be used much better by microing to put the new units to work instantly or recycles close to the battlefield. It makes sense however that those upgrades were always there for a reason, even if you don't want to pair this specific strategy with elites or doctrines.

The grav tanks and vypers can serve their purpose, but mainly in 1v1 balance or certain situations. Usually vyper blobs are less than effective otherwise. If a player gets beaten by these they usually just didn't make basic AT infantry and target them.

Also, the upgrades are costly, but it's better to eventually get both later on if your wraithknight will fall and retain some recall utility. . In a big lategame you can afford to make 2 infinity portals to double output/recall, or even start mixing in fire prisms or falcons. Eldar control the field way easier once you understand how it all works. You can still be defeated but that is obviously the main macro/staying power of Eldar, not a nerfed grav tank that takes many shots to kill 1 heavy unit.

Teach me sensei