@S4ngetsu said:
I can understand people asking for ranger and ronahn nerf, yes they are a tiny bit too strong.
But i can't understand Eldar players asking for buffs, right now Eldar is very strong, just requires very good micro/macro.
If you fail as Eldar it literally means your micro is not good enough - go back to sm.
Ballance is fine.
Ork players shouldn't complain too - only because Bruihc lost to Babyubyu doesn't mean that Ork is underpowered vs Eldar. Bruihc rarely played and has less experience, i really wonder how he even managed to get into the finals, yeah he must be a god (or Orks are still super strong).
I see the same argument all the time. 'Oh Babybyu (the best player in the world) wins things with Eldar' so they're strong. What about people who havent got his best in world skills?
If you check his stats, he's actually won almost twice as many matches using SM. There's a reason for that, and it's an inconvenient fact for those trying to claim Eldar are the strongest race based off his domination (is he a bloke?). Anyway, we're talking early game not balance in terms of outright potential. It says in ze thread title people.
EXACTLY!
The balance shouldn't be spun around 99,99th percentile. Which is what Babyubyubyu(whatever) is. Because 99,99% of people DO NOT have his skills. Imagine if you came to a regular, average job interview and they expected Steve Jobs level of dedication / quality from you. Not real / fair, huh?
Balance should be done around 66th percentile or so. Especially if you want to have a popular, vivid game that will be played for decades. Like Starcraft 1. It's perfectly playable by anyone from 25th to 99,99th percentile. But the balance is spun around 70th(or so) percentile, with various things going for upper and lower echelons.
Currently DoW 3 is so slanted towards 80+ percentile...it's not good. They won't catch any new players this way.
@S4ngetsu said:
I can understand people asking for ranger and ronahn nerf, yes they are a tiny bit too strong.
But i can't understand Eldar players asking for buffs, right now Eldar is very strong, just requires very good micro/macro.
If you fail as Eldar it literally means your micro is not good enough - go back to sm.
Ballance is fine.
Ork players shouldn't complain too - only because Bruihc lost to Babyubyu doesn't mean that Ork is underpowered vs Eldar. Bruihc rarely played and has less experience, i really wonder how he even managed to get into the finals, yeah he must be a god (or Orks are still super strong).
I see the same argument all the time. 'Oh Babybyu (the best player in the world) wins things with Eldar' so they're strong. What about people who havent got his best in world skills?
If you check his stats, he's actually won almost twice as many matches using SM. There's a reason for that, and it's an inconvenient fact for those trying to claim Eldar are the strongest race based off his domination (is he a bloke?). Anyway, we're talking early game not balance in terms of outright potential. It says in ze thread title people.
EXACTLY!
The balance shouldn't be spun around 99,99th percentile. Which is what Babyubyubyu(whatever) is. Because 99,99% of people DO NOT have his skills. Imagine if you came to a regular, average job interview and they expected Steve Jobs level of dedication / quality from you. Not real / fair, huh?
Balance should be done around 66th percentile or so. Especially if you want to have a popular, vivid game that will be played for decades. Like Starcraft 1. It's perfectly playable by anyone from 25th to 99,99th percentile. But the balance is spun around 70th(or so) percentile, with various things going for upper and lower echelons.
Currently DoW 3 is so slanted towards 80+ percentile...it's not good. They won't catch any new players this way.
So you're saying that DoWIII or in this case Eldar are too hard to play and you want an easier gameplay.
Well. Relic allready increased health of infantry by 30% so they are not dying so fast, they only did that to make the game easier and more appealing for new players.
I agree with you that new players might struggle with the difficulty but the reasony why i play RTS is because it's a challange compared to all those easy moba games like Dota and LoL.
I've reached Diamond3 in LoL without any problems back in the days, i didn't even tryhard -.-
DoWIII is difficult that is one of the reasons why i like it. New players should start practicing SM because they are noobfriendly i'd say, easier to learn than Orks or Eldar.
Kat_RE allready made a post that the reason why so many people play SM is because they are popular, not OP. They are popular because a lot of people just love SM as a race and also are easier to play compared to Ork/Eldar.
@S4ngetsu said:
I can understand people asking for ranger and ronahn nerf, yes they are a tiny bit too strong.
But i can't understand Eldar players asking for buffs, right now Eldar is very strong, just requires very good micro/macro.
If you fail as Eldar it literally means your micro is not good enough - go back to sm.
Ballance is fine.
Ork players shouldn't complain too - only because Bruihc lost to Babyubyu doesn't mean that Ork is underpowered vs Eldar. Bruihc rarely played and has less experience, i really wonder how he even managed to get into the finals, yeah he must be a god (or Orks are still super strong).
I see the same argument all the time. 'Oh Babybyu (the best player in the world) wins things with Eldar' so they're strong. What about people who havent got his best in world skills?
If you check his stats, he's actually won almost twice as many matches using SM. There's a reason for that, and it's an inconvenient fact for those trying to claim Eldar are the strongest race based off his domination (is he a bloke?). Anyway, we're talking early game not balance in terms of outright potential. It says in ze thread title people.
EXACTLY!
The balance shouldn't be spun around 99,99th percentile. Which is what Babyubyubyu(whatever) is. Because 99,99% of people DO NOT have his skills. Imagine if you came to a regular, average job interview and they expected Steve Jobs level of dedication / quality from you. Not real / fair, huh?
Balance should be done around 66th percentile or so. Especially if you want to have a popular, vivid game that will be played for decades. Like Starcraft 1. It's perfectly playable by anyone from 25th to 99,99th percentile. But the balance is spun around 70th(or so) percentile, with various things going for upper and lower echelons.
Currently DoW 3 is so slanted towards 80+ percentile...it's not good. They won't catch any new players this way.
So you're saying that DoWIII or in this case Eldar are too hard to play and you want an easier gameplay.
Well. Relic allready increased health of infantry by 30% so they are not dying so fast, they only did that to make the game easier and more appealing for new players.
I agree with you that new players might struggle with the difficulty but the reasony why i play RTS is because it's a challange compared to all those easy moba games like Dota and LoL.
I've reached Diamond3 in LoL without any problems back in the days, i didn't even tryhard -.-
DoWIII is difficult that is one of the reasons why i like it. New players should start practicing SM because they are noobfriendly i'd say, easier to learn than Orks or Eldar.
Kat_RE allready made a post that the reason why so many people play SM is because they are popular, not OP. They are popular because a lot of people just love SM as a race and also are easier to play compared to Ork/Eldar.
What you say is valid, but how you say it tells whole tomes of story. Sorry, but...
...you seem like one of those ultra toxic players people often complain about. The top 1% dog who simply MUST WIN 11!1!! At any cost lol.
Balance should be top down, but quality of life should be throughout; some things can be nerfed or buffed without adjusting top play in certain circumstances.
Pretty much every race requires similar amount of micro to play well, otherwise in top player ratings, we'd see huge spike in wins for race which requires less micro. Even top players are human beings and have their limits, and in such micro heavy games as DOW III, load off from it gives insane advantage, which any top and even average player can utilize to great lengths.
If you take a good close look at leaderboards, players that are most active sitting in top 10-20 in each race ranking. There are very few <50 rank players active in PvP (1-3-6 months ago last playtime). If I remember correctly, OP said he's somewhere in ~50, which is average, vs. ~15 top. Skill gap is huge, and it is understandable that frustration builds up from brutal lose streaks which undoubtedly take place, but blaming balance isn't really gonna help anything here.
S4ngetsu, Spirit and Vindi are very good players, Eldar in particular (which I had misfortune to meet in PvP couple of times ) who state that balance is fine as it is, but OP keeps claiming that game should be balanced around average players, while there are literally no average players left in DOW III. Funny, isn't it?
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Well, at least they've got brains and don't listen to crap like this:
"Balance should be top down".
But I am not necessarily talking about balance, but rather about viability, so...whatever.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Well, at least they've got brains and don't listen to crap like this:
"Balance should be top down".
But I am not necessarily talking about balance, but rather about viability, so...whatever.
I agree with you, it's like Capcom coming to a brainless decision like 'let's balance SF3 around Daigo and his skillset. F*** almost everyone else that isn't on his level'.
Let me be clear, I'm all for depth and the potential to be there for crazy good levels of play. But when the early game is so heavily in favour of SM spamming TMs - the most simple and ++heresy redacted++-friendly 'strategy' btw - against any opposing strategy that actually requires skill, the game is actively rewarding easy and ++heresy redacted++ gameplay. So Sangetsu what you are asking for is for more moba and casuals to be attracted to this game, as one unit spam and forward base is one hell of an early game winner.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Well, at least they've got brains and don't listen to crap like this:
"Balance should be top down".
But I am not necessarily talking about balance, but rather about viability, so...whatever.
I agree with you, it's like Capcom coming to a brainless decision like 'let's balance SF3 around Daigo and his skillset. F*** almost everyone else that isn't on his level'.
Let me be clear, I'm all for depth and the potential to be there for crazy good levels of play. But when the early game is so heavily in favour of SM spamming TMs - the most simple and ++heresy redacted++-friendly 'strategy' btw - against any opposing strategy that actually requires skill, the game is actively rewarding easy and ++heresy redacted++ gameplay. So Sangetsu what you are asking for is for more moba and casuals to be attracted to this game, as one unit spam and forward base is one hell of an early game winner.
It's almost as if the both of you guys lack reading comprehension and you're too busy in your own circle jerk within that cesspool of rage to notice the caveat. Things like rangers are not an issue at the top end for a lot of players, but for mid range players they were an issue so Relic dealt with it. Again, that's an example of top down balance and then fixes for anything else so long as it doesn't interfere with the top.
There are usually ways to improve balance for the mid range players and not impact the top or at least have minimal impact on the top.
Also, lulz, you actually think Daigo is the epitome of the FGC? ++heresy redacted++, are you still stuck in Evo Moment 37?
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
@S4ngetsu said:
I can understand people asking for ranger and ronahn nerf, yes they are a tiny bit too strong.
But i can't understand Eldar players asking for buffs, right now Eldar is very strong, just requires very good micro/macro.
If you fail as Eldar it literally means your micro is not good enough - go back to sm.
Ballance is fine.
Ork players shouldn't complain too - only because Bruihc lost to Babyubyu doesn't mean that Ork is underpowered vs Eldar. Bruihc rarely played and has less experience, i really wonder how he even managed to get into the finals, yeah he must be a god (or Orks are still super strong).
I see the same argument all the time. 'Oh Babybyu (the best player in the world) wins things with Eldar' so they're strong. What about people who havent got his best in world skills?
If you check his stats, he's actually won almost twice as many matches using SM. There's a reason for that, and it's an inconvenient fact for those trying to claim Eldar are the strongest race based off his domination (is he a bloke?). Anyway, we're talking early game not balance in terms of outright potential. It says in ze thread title people.
EXACTLY!
The balance shouldn't be spun around 99,99th percentile. Which is what Babyubyubyu(whatever) is. Because 99,99% of people DO NOT have his skills. Imagine if you came to a regular, average job interview and they expected Steve Jobs level of dedication / quality from you. Not real / fair, huh?
Balance should be done around 66th percentile or so. Especially if you want to have a popular, vivid game that will be played for decades. Like Starcraft 1. It's perfectly playable by anyone from 25th to 99,99th percentile. But the balance is spun around 70th(or so) percentile, with various things going for upper and lower echelons.
Currently DoW 3 is so slanted towards 80+ percentile...it's not good. They won't catch any new players this way.
So you're saying that DoWIII or in this case Eldar are too hard to play and you want an easier gameplay.
Well. Relic allready increased health of infantry by 30% so they are not dying so fast, they only did that to make the game easier and more appealing for new players.
I agree with you that new players might struggle with the difficulty but the reasony why i play RTS is because it's a challange compared to all those easy moba games like Dota and LoL.
I've reached Diamond3 in LoL without any problems back in the days, i didn't even tryhard -.-
DoWIII is difficult that is one of the reasons why i like it. New players should start practicing SM because they are noobfriendly i'd say, easier to learn than Orks or Eldar.
Kat_RE allready made a post that the reason why so many people play SM is because they are popular, not OP. They are popular because a lot of people just love SM as a race and also are easier to play compared to Ork/Eldar.
What you say is valid, but how you say it tells whole tomes of story. Sorry, but...
...you seem like one of those ultra toxic players people often complain about. The top 1% dog who simply MUST WIN 11!1!! At any cost lol.
Does it matter if he is toxic or not? Hes being friendly here.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Yep, no you can't.
Complaining about SM while playing eldar is an egregious affidavit of subpar skill. Eldar absolutely destroys early game with the 30% buff; shields combined with fleet of foot equates to an anti-bleeding nightmare. Throw in a req dump unit that can true damage to victory and well, goodbye gen's&turrets.
Ultimately, don't be f***king absurd, accept that you are terrible for losing to "3 tac" as eldar and begin the grueling journey down the path of improvement. It's really that simple.
If plebs like you had their way, what little we have left of a competitive scene would vanish.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Yep, no you can't.
Dude, you gotta take a deep breath and relax. You wrongly assumed I'm a "SM defender", when in reality I've played Eldar 90 percent of the time. I know it sucks to get stomped by Tac Marine spam, but it is very beatable. You just have to think "outside the box" sometimes when it comes to strategy. The strength of Eldar is to force SM to fight on YOUR terms, not his. In other words, focus on catching his squads out of position. Don't try to fight a sustained battle where he has his Banner planted, force him to fight on multiple fronts, Dire Avengers have plenty of great doctrines too. use your bonesingers teleport ability to tie up Heavy gun squads, and use Striking scorpions jump at key moments when you need disruption.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Yep, no you can't.
Complaining about SM while playing eldar is an egregious affidavit of subpar skill. Eldar absolutely destroys early game with the 30% buff; shields combined with fleet of foot equates to an anti-bleeding nightmare. Throw in a req dump unit that can true damage to victory and well, goodbye gen's&turrets.
Ultimately, don't be f***king absurd, accept that you are terrible for losing to "3 tac" as eldar and begin the grueling journey down the path of improvement. It's really that simple.
If plebs like you had their way, what little we have left of a competitive scene would vanish.
You've been reported. Get out of here with posts like this.
Kat_RE said:
Many of you are absolutely right to point that we’re not top tier players (anymore ). Keep in mind though that it’s NOT only top tier players or 1v1 that we consider when balancing. The largest group of people playing this game are not in the upper skill brackets
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Yep, no you can't.
Dude, you gotta take a deep breath and relax. You wrongly assumed I'm a "SM defender", when in reality I've played Eldar 90 percent of the time. I know it sucks to get stomped by Tac Marine spam, but it is very beatable. You just have to think "outside the box" sometimes when it comes to strategy. The strength of Eldar is to force SM to fight on YOUR terms, not his. In other words, focus on catching his squads out of position. Don't try to fight a sustained battle where he has his Banner planted, force him to fight on multiple fronts, Dire Avengers have plenty of great doctrines too. use your bonesingers teleport ability to tie up Heavy gun squads, and use Striking scorpions jump at key moments when you need disruption.
Thats what i have been saying all along and im not even a eldar player. Just know this from all the other 40k games i played and their play style has always been identical.
@steinernein said:
So the summary of this entire thread is 'git gud'?
No, the opposite. The takeaway here is that people want to keep n00b friendly tactics like TM spam super stronk so that more casuals are attracted to the game as they can win easily by just building requisition nodes and clicking on build TMs out of their main base. Anyone that wants to play the game with some unit variety and some skilled use of micro can s0d off, because these people don't want skill or high level play in this game. Am I doing it right?
@steinernein said:
So the summary of this entire thread is 'git gud'?
If Relic just said hey guys we don't need to do anything "git gud" no one would buy this game. The competitive community isn't anywhere near big enough (sales wise either) for this game for them to be saying bullsh!t like "ohh just git gud". This game does have balance problems that need to be fixed and it is silly if they just look at "top" players when 85% or maybe even more of their consumers aren't one of them.
Balance will never be perfect, no matter how mutch u guys ask for...
The balance right now is better than ever !
DoW3 is a good game now but it lacks content.
It needs new races, observer mode , ingame chat lobby for everyone online.
Also what frustrates me the most is that even if there are 400ppl online the ingame lobby looks completely dead because everyone just press automatch.
If I click on Browse there is usually only 1 game that shows up. So sad.
Please make this game more alive !
@S4ngetsu said:
Balance will never be perfect, no matter how mutch u guys ask for... The balance right now is better than ever !
DoW3 is a good game now but it lacks content.
It needs new races, observer mode , ingame chat lobby for everyone online.
Also what frustrates me the most is that even if there are 400ppl online the ingame lobby looks completely dead because everyone just press automatch.
If I click on Browse there is usually only 1 game that shows up. So sad.
Please make this game more alive !
False! Orks are god awful.
They need buffs and Space Marines are crazy good and need to be toned down with that drop pod spam crap, and that flag buff.
I haven't played a eldar player in a while so idk about them.
@Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
@Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
@S4ngetsu said: @Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
No one cares about your rank, man. No one cares if you're number 1 on every leader board.
Why does it take you playing a top 10 Ork player for them to be made to look good yet you can play any joe nobody with Space Marines or Eldars and they make them look good. Why do Ork have to be played a super certain way using some top tier strategy while Space Marines can be played anyway and get a easy victory on them. Let me give you a hint that means the team is complete garbage.
When a character(s) has to be played with some super specification it means the character(s) are garbage.
Slow units, nerfed units that are pretty much cannon fodder, crappy WAAAGHH tower gimmick to upgrade units, WAAAGHH tower are crazy expensive, even their higher tier units are worthless, gets destroyed by SM drop pod spam, cant catch eldars they can easily out run them, and thats the short list.
@Deadlywest said:
When a character(s) has to be played with some super specification it means the character(s) are garbage.
Slow units, nerfed units that are pretty much cannon fodder, crappy WAAAGHH tower gimmick to upgrade units, WAAAGHH tower are crazy expensive, even their higher tier units are worthless, gets destroyed by SM drop pod spam, cant catch eldars they can easily out run them, and thats the short list.
You're kind of special.
Don't add value judgments where they don't belong; having only one or two viable pathways at top tier is neither good nor bad. What it does mean is that you can compete, and despite having a predictable strategy it's one that requires your opponent to outplay you.
Furthermore, as a tangent, most games these days have been optimized to the point where there's only one viable strategy at the top but we tolerate it because it still allows a range of expression inside of the framework.
@S4ngetsu said: @Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
No one cares about your rank, man. No one cares if you're number 1 on every leader board.
Why does it take you playing a top 10 Ork player for them to be made to look good yet you can play any joe nobody with Space Marines or Eldars and they make them look good. Why do Ork have to be played a super certain way using some top tier strategy while Space Marines can be played anyway and get a easy victory on them. Let me give you a hint that means the team is complete garbage.
When a character(s) has to be played with some super specification it means the character(s) are garbage.
Slow units, nerfed units that are pretty much cannon fodder, crappy WAAAGHH tower gimmick to upgrade units, WAAAGHH tower are crazy expensive, even their higher tier units are worthless, gets destroyed by SM drop pod spam, cant catch eldars they can easily out run them, and thats the short list.
I don't care either man. I just tried to explain my experience. But seems like you have other major issues...
I don't want to say "git gud" but yeah you are right - each race requires different amounts of skill and most people agree that SM is the easiest race to do well with.
This doesn't mean that Orks are bad and have garbage units as you said.
You should watch replays from good Ork players and learn from them, here is a good example of how to play Ork and SM: https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=325351
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Gorgor
EXACTLY!
The balance shouldn't be spun around 99,99th percentile. Which is what Babyubyubyu(whatever) is. Because 99,99% of people DO NOT have his skills. Imagine if you came to a regular, average job interview and they expected Steve Jobs level of dedication / quality from you. Not real / fair, huh?
Balance should be done around 66th percentile or so. Especially if you want to have a popular, vivid game that will be played for decades. Like Starcraft 1. It's perfectly playable by anyone from 25th to 99,99th percentile. But the balance is spun around 70th(or so) percentile, with various things going for upper and lower echelons.
Currently DoW 3 is so slanted towards 80+ percentile...it's not good. They won't catch any new players this way.
S4ngetsu
So you're saying that DoWIII or in this case Eldar are too hard to play and you want an easier gameplay.
Well. Relic allready increased health of infantry by 30% so they are not dying so fast, they only did that to make the game easier and more appealing for new players.
I agree with you that new players might struggle with the difficulty but the reasony why i play RTS is because it's a challange compared to all those easy moba games like Dota and LoL.
I've reached Diamond3 in LoL without any problems back in the days, i didn't even tryhard -.-
DoWIII is difficult that is one of the reasons why i like it. New players should start practicing SM because they are noobfriendly i'd say, easier to learn than Orks or Eldar.
Kat_RE allready made a post that the reason why so many people play SM is because they are popular, not OP. They are popular because a lot of people just love SM as a race and also are easier to play compared to Ork/Eldar.
Gorgor
What you say is valid, but how you say it tells whole tomes of story. Sorry, but...
...you seem like one of those ultra toxic players people often complain about. The top 1% dog who simply MUST WIN 11!1!! At any cost lol.
steinernein
Balance should be top down, but quality of life should be throughout; some things can be nerfed or buffed without adjusting top play in certain circumstances.
Stoner
Few important things to note for OP:
Martin
Regarding the chat about who the balance should be spun around Kat said this in a previous balance feedback thread:
https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/14514/balance-feedback-july-27-2017/p1
Gorgor
Well, at least they've got brains and don't listen to crap like this:
"Balance should be top down".
But I am not necessarily talking about balance, but rather about viability, so...whatever.
IntoTheRainbow
Reading that old thread it's telling that players had big concerns over Deathstorm droppods back then but the devs have not done anything about them. Like a poster said, they absolutely are like a second Super Weapon for SM. You combine dropping one in-between a defending army with an Orbital Bombardment with an attack on a SG, Turret or PC and it's instant win. Ridiculous this still hasn't been looked at. You can try destroying it, but in the 6-8 seconds it takes to kill it, your turret is destroyed.
Why don't some of the devs chime in here on what is going on, or at least do so via these invisible 'community people' we haven't heard a peep from since Kat sailed off into the sunset? Come on.
Considering there are about 200 people that play this game regularly, and we have 20 of them in this thread with concerns (balance or otherwise) about gameplay, you'd think they'd be eager to give us their thoughts.
IntoTheRainbow
I agree with you, it's like Capcom coming to a brainless decision like 'let's balance SF3 around Daigo and his skillset. F*** almost everyone else that isn't on his level'.
Let me be clear, I'm all for depth and the potential to be there for crazy good levels of play. But when the early game is so heavily in favour of SM spamming TMs - the most simple and ++heresy redacted++-friendly 'strategy' btw - against any opposing strategy that actually requires skill, the game is actively rewarding easy and ++heresy redacted++ gameplay. So Sangetsu what you are asking for is for more moba and casuals to be attracted to this game, as one unit spam and forward base is one hell of an early game winner.
steinernein
It's almost as if the both of you guys lack reading comprehension and you're too busy in your own circle jerk within that cesspool of rage to notice the caveat. Things like rangers are not an issue at the top end for a lot of players, but for mid range players they were an issue so Relic dealt with it. Again, that's an example of top down balance and then fixes for anything else so long as it doesn't interfere with the top.
There are usually ways to improve balance for the mid range players and not impact the top or at least have minimal impact on the top.
Also, lulz, you actually think Daigo is the epitome of the FGC? ++heresy redacted++, are you still stuck in Evo Moment 37?
Ekko_Tek
6-8 seconds to destroy a deathstorm?? Sounds like you just don't have the right unit/weapon damage on hand. It's like complaining that banshees take forever to kill a Predator therefore nerf preds...
IntoTheRainbow
You don't seem to have any concept of how long seconds are. Count to 6 and tell me you can destroy a Deathstorm droppod with an early-mid game army quicker.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Yep, no you can't.
CANNED_F3TUS
Does it matter if he is toxic or not? Hes being friendly here.
Estufa
Complaining about SM while playing eldar is an egregious affidavit of subpar skill. Eldar absolutely destroys early game with the 30% buff; shields combined with fleet of foot equates to an anti-bleeding nightmare. Throw in a req dump unit that can true damage to victory and well, goodbye gen's&turrets.
Ultimately, don't be f***king absurd, accept that you are terrible for losing to "3 tac" as eldar and begin the grueling journey down the path of improvement. It's really that simple.
If plebs like you had their way, what little we have left of a competitive scene would vanish.
UnshavenRaven
Dude, you gotta take a deep breath and relax. You wrongly assumed I'm a "SM defender", when in reality I've played Eldar 90 percent of the time. I know it sucks to get stomped by Tac Marine spam, but it is very beatable. You just have to think "outside the box" sometimes when it comes to strategy. The strength of Eldar is to force SM to fight on YOUR terms, not his. In other words, focus on catching his squads out of position. Don't try to fight a sustained battle where he has his Banner planted, force him to fight on multiple fronts, Dire Avengers have plenty of great doctrines too. use your bonesingers teleport ability to tie up Heavy gun squads, and use Striking scorpions jump at key moments when you need disruption.
IntoTheRainbow
You've been reported. Get out of here with posts like this.
CANNED_F3TUS
Thats what i have been saying all along and im not even a eldar player. Just know this from all the other 40k games i played and their play style has always been identical.
steinernein
So the summary of this entire thread is 'git gud'?
IntoTheRainbow
No, the opposite. The takeaway here is that people want to keep n00b friendly tactics like TM spam super stronk so that more casuals are attracted to the game as they can win easily by just building requisition nodes and clicking on build TMs out of their main base. Anyone that wants to play the game with some unit variety and some skilled use of micro can s0d off, because these people don't want skill or high level play in this game. Am I doing it right?
Deadlywest
If Relic just said hey guys we don't need to do anything "git gud" no one would buy this game. The competitive community isn't anywhere near big enough (sales wise either) for this game for them to be saying bullsh!t like "ohh just git gud". This game does have balance problems that need to be fixed and it is silly if they just look at "top" players when 85% or maybe even more of their consumers aren't one of them.
S4ngetsu
Balance will never be perfect, no matter how mutch u guys ask for...
The balance right now is better than ever !
DoW3 is a good game now but it lacks content.
It needs new races, observer mode , ingame chat lobby for everyone online.
Also what frustrates me the most is that even if there are 400ppl online the ingame lobby looks completely dead because everyone just press automatch.
If I click on Browse there is usually only 1 game that shows up. So sad.
Please make this game more alive !
Deadlywest
False! Orks are god awful.
They need buffs and Space Marines are crazy good and need to be toned down with that drop pod spam crap, and that flag buff.
I haven't played a eldar player in a while so idk about them.
S4ngetsu
@Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
S4ngetsu
@Deadlywest you are probably not even ranked but i play against top 10 people all the time and on that level Orks are very strong, so is Eldar.
SM are strong too but i guess orks and eldar are slightly stronger, not mutch tho.
Deadlywest
No one cares about your rank, man. No one cares if you're number 1 on every leader board.
Why does it take you playing a top 10 Ork player for them to be made to look good yet you can play any joe nobody with Space Marines or Eldars and they make them look good. Why do Ork have to be played a super certain way using some top tier strategy while Space Marines can be played anyway and get a easy victory on them. Let me give you a hint that means the team is complete garbage.
When a character(s) has to be played with some super specification it means the character(s) are garbage.
Slow units, nerfed units that are pretty much cannon fodder, crappy WAAAGHH tower gimmick to upgrade units, WAAAGHH tower are crazy expensive, even their higher tier units are worthless, gets destroyed by SM drop pod spam, cant catch eldars they can easily out run them, and thats the short list.
steinernein
You're kind of special.
Don't add value judgments where they don't belong; having only one or two viable pathways at top tier is neither good nor bad. What it does mean is that you can compete, and despite having a predictable strategy it's one that requires your opponent to outplay you.
Furthermore, as a tangent, most games these days have been optimized to the point where there's only one viable strategy at the top but we tolerate it because it still allows a range of expression inside of the framework.
S4ngetsu
I don't care either man. I just tried to explain my experience. But seems like you have other major issues...
I don't want to say "git gud" but yeah you are right - each race requires different amounts of skill and most people agree that SM is the easiest race to do well with.
This doesn't mean that Orks are bad and have garbage units as you said.
You should watch replays from good Ork players and learn from them, here is a good example of how to play Ork and SM: https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar3/replays.php?game=95&show=details&id=325351