@Stoner said:
In one of the posts Ben said that they won't give us any info before they have anything "concrete". That can become pretty terrible misjudgement. When they see such specific reaction from community, it would be much wiser to lay out specific reworks or content additions they have in mind in detail, so community can overview and agree or disagree with these changes. When devs will have "concrete" ideas, they'll just warn us and then implement without asking if those were what anyone wanted, pretty much like how this game have been launched. How many times they intend to step into the same river I wonder?...
I really hope that Relic involves the community in their decisions. An open beta to test the changes and collect feedback should definitely be there. And as early as possible and not shortly before the release. The best would of course be a public test server where interested players could test the changes live and Relic can experiment with new ideas anytime. That remains only a wishful imagination, because that means a lot of work and effort.
@Tobi said:
About suggested doctrine rework:if there are the respn why people dont enjoy dow3 gameplay then why coh2 works well with them.And you cant just put so many doctrines to game as in match upgrades that would be hell to balance and remowing doctrin would destroy one of the core aspects, i mean relic put tume to tweak them everyvpatch they spent time to add new at october nad now throw that out of the window when you cant be sure that it will help?
The core gameplay can certainly be changed. Relic has to invest time and resources. The goal should be to bring the old fans back. In the long run, we would have a healthy player base and better reviews. An attractive game automatically attracts more new players.
@Tobi said:
About suggested doctrine rework:if there are the respn why people dont enjoy dow3 gameplay then why coh2 works well with them.And you cant just put so many doctrines to game as in match upgrades that would be hell to balance and remowing doctrin would destroy one of the core aspects, i mean relic put tume to tweak them everyvpatch they spent time to add new at october nad now throw that out of the window when you cant be sure that it will help?
In CoH 2 doctrines work because the underlying game mechanics are completely different. There I do not need a doctrine that my troops throw a grenade or that I can build a turret. I have passive skills like more accuracy or faster veteran status. Since this was not done in DoW 3, Relic have declared many standard abilities to doctrines to incorporate something like depth into the gameplay.
@TokyoDream said:
2 things.
1. I find that honesty kind of reassuring. It's the first time I've heard Relic hint that they know how bad the reception was.
2. Perhaps it's not just lack of content but imagine if PC mode was just one of several game modes at launch. Would the "DOW3 is a MOBA" rumor have gone viral? People who had clearly never even played DOW3 were spamming that in every forum and steam review. Imagine how much damage could have been prevented with more content at launch.
The whole MOBA-Shitstorm was early on the horizon. Why nobody at Relic beat the alarm bells is incomprehensible to me. It might have been enough to add the Victory Point Gamemode and if it was just in Custom Game. That would have calmed a lot of people. Instead, all signs were ignored. But to say something positive, DoW 3 is the only sixth most disappointing game of 2017:
@Bigamo said:
600 people online, 45 minutes to find a match... Got matched against a guy that was playing his second game online, his first 1vs1 online, EVER.
You are aware of how placement games function, right?
It's worse than tragedy, if you guys think that one or 2 extra races will fix the mess you guys are getting seriously delusional... O game that people actually likes can have just 2 races and still have people playing it online.
All arguable features aside, the one thing that set DoW apart from any other RTS games was a wide selection of very varied factions(except everything that carried bolter in DoW1, all of that were reskins) and I also believe new factions alone would make plenty of people return/hop on board, especially when the balance is incomparably better then at release-economy could and probably should be tweaked, but actual unit balance is solid.
The problem with a rework is that the question is not if and what to rework in the game, no way relic look at feedback this long and not have a long list of suggested features/changes, but the problem is what NOT to rework since you can't do a lot of them and certainly not all of them, because money and time is limited and even if it was not they would want to do the things that matter most first.
@VanceStubbs_86 said:
But to say something positive, DoW 3 is the only sixth most disappointing game of 2017:
At least not in the first three places of that ranking!
Though I understand that it wasn't something that all fans wanted. Still I'm satisfied with this game, thought things could be better. But oh well. For me its better than having nothing.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Of course only an combination of rework and new content ( and not old features beeing marketed as new) would achieve maximum success.
There would also be an goood name, someone mentioned it in my thread
Dawn of war: Redemption
Thats the best name EVER!!!
I'd just like to point out that I came up with that name.
@Nassir_Amit said:
Of course only an combination of rework and new content ( and not old features beeing marketed as new) would achieve maximum success.
There would also be an goood name, someone mentioned it in my thread
Dawn of war: Redemption
Thats the best name EVER!!!
I'd just like to point out that I came up with that name.
You will sue Relic to get your rights? So its a bad idea to use it...
On the contrary, it's the only acceptable name for Relic to use. It's both apologetic and ambitious.
The game needs a rework or it's dead. I know people hate hearing this, and I've been saying it since May, but this game has absolutely no future under the current design scheme. It just doesn't. The MOBA influenced design fell flat on its face from day one and it's never going to get traction. The appeal for it is negligible and I think at this point even Relic understands this given the changes they've made since release.
The argument that more content will revive the player base depends on the idiotic assumption that each new race would have some magical multiplicative effect on the player base. It's wishful thinking and it doesn't make any sense.
Well, what it really comes down to, is that Relic probably never had the time or money to really make a superb DoW3 game.
It doesn't take a genius to know that DoW3 has a dearth of content - 3 races? C'mon, that's a little low. And to top it off - it clearly didn't look like Relic put a whole lot of effort into the graphics department (clearly they went for a more streamlined look - and that's fine I think the game looks very good and especially the sfx and environment) - but this was obviously different than their efforts to give you a visceral photo-realistic experience in DoW2/CoH2 that had a draw for a lot of people. The game also clearly lacks complexity in some departments too (for example, the lack of diverse armor and damage types), so the combat can also be rather straight-forward. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it probably didn't take them a whole lot of time to create this system...
I think it's clear the game could have used a lot of improvements - ya, multiple damage types/armor types would be pretty cool, but it also will probably take more time to develop and implement. The same goes for literally everything else this game is missing. The beta was a joke too - most of the most critical concerns raised were largely ignored and some never addressed.
It's a game that screams that it was rushed to me... which is unfortunately pretty normal for Relic.
I think we can all imagine a better DoW3 - which is why so many just want a DoW4. I think DoW3's fundamental design isn't bad, but it's one that really needed a wealth of content to support it - and clearly we didn't get that. If CoH2/DoW2 and DoW1 spent most of their resources creating an innovative and visceral experience for the player, even at the cost of gameplay functionality and game-smoothness (e.g. pathfinding) , then DoW3 was a release where they spent most of their resource on creating a smooth and polished gameplay/multiplayer experience at the cost of throwing those bells and whistles at players that Relic has been known for.
I think with a constant addition of large maps (remember - small maps DO feels like an Arena instead of a WAR due to the scale of unit production in DoW3 compared to it's predecessors) and new units and new elites and new races, the game can offer a really good 40k multiplayer experience. I have to hand it to Relic on that department here - the 3 Races are really fleshed out and well designed as well as their very polished implementation of basic game coding that makes DoW3 a relatively stable playing experience compared to its predecessors - I experience far less game breaking bugs/exploits in DoW3 relative to DoW2 - and far less frustrating moments of not having precise unit controls.
DoW3 is a good game - but it clearly doesnt have that "WoW" factor the other 2 DoW games had, nor did it have the content and variety present at release to make up for that fact - again, just another sad story of a Relic release that could've been great but ultimately rushed. If DoW3 had another 6 - 12 months of development time, and some quality play testing beyond that joke of a "beta test", it could've been really good...
@vindicarex said:
It doesn't take a genius to know that DoW3 has a dearth of content - 3 races? C'mon, that's a little low.
It's absolutely normal to have 3 races/factions on release. Anything more would have been more unusual than not. Again, as I've said, the idea that releasing with 4 or 5 races instead of 3 would have magically multiplied the numbers of people still playing is absurd. This is an additive equation, not a multiplicative one.
@vindicarex said:
It doesn't take a genius to know that DoW3 has a dearth of content - 3 races? C'mon, that's a little low.
It's absolutely normal to have 3 races/factions on release. Anything more would have been more unusual than not. Again, as I've said, the idea that releasing with 4 or 5 races instead of 3 would have magically multiplied the numbers of people still playing is absurd. This is an additive equation, not a multiplicative one.
Maybe it would've meant 1 - 3k players on instead of 200-500 though... something like that.
While the 3 factions we have here are best made in whole DoW series so far and have most depth thanks to elites and doctrines, DoW series is known for many unique factions participating in the conflict and 3 will not only create completely false comparisons to SC2, is simply not enough for DoW title.
One or two new factions alone could likely double/tripple online numbers as that would mean much more match-ups and much more interesting team games and meta.
Gotta agree with Amoc here, I'm pretty confident that even if this game would launch with 5 factions, we'll still be sitting in ~500 online now. At release there might be more players though, but considering how this game is designed, brutal player dropoff was inevitable.
I'm not saying I don't want to see new races, sure as hell I do, maybe even more than other, but I don't see any point playing with 10 dudes queuing for PvP in prime time weekend... And yeah, good luck waiting ~12 months before new expansion arrives. Hope to see you all here when that happens, which I highly doubt to see anyone in all honesty...
I'd prefer a rework, but would honestly want the SP campaign reworked as part of it, but that's not happening. So I'd say 1 because I think it's possible...
It's a game that screams that it was rushed to me... which is unfortunately pretty normal for Relic.
I think this is the source of everything that went wrong with DOW3. The only things that seems polished are the armies and interface. The basic building blocks of an RTS.
Everything else feels compromised or unfinished in a way that is not normal for Relic. Even the codex looks rushed and that just requires some data entry. Relic never had Blizzard levels of polish and playtesting but it's never been this bad. I'm just hoping that Relic isn't fixing DOW3 because they know they need some kind of relaunch. It would explain why they are still so unsure of what to do next.
I think with dow3 will have a real expansion (and of course, that you should pay for it), gameplay changes and adding more content is really possible.
I 'll speak of Starcraft 2 here : Honestly, when WoL was launch, campaign was cool, but multi was not so fun. When thy decide to go for HotS, they rethink the game a lot, and from now, they even can remove units, change abilities etc etc. Fact is the game is (imo) better and better. They can mistake something, they will just correct taht with a patch.
Today, add some doctrines as upgrades is possible, and clearly here, a good part of actual players think the same. If they want they can really rebuild some mechanics, and add on isthe time where you decide to do that. If at this moment they add more contents, more races, a strong solo play.... in fact nothing is loosed. Not at all. I see one other rts that was poor, becoming really more popular to the playerbase that is concerned about this type of RTS : Ashes of Singularity. Lovers of supreme commander or Total annhilition, really want a new RTS game with big macro. AoS was not good. So pretty bad for these players. Then they launch a stand alone : "Escalation". And this time, players, and testers just say that this is a real strong game.
@Katitof said:
One or two new factions alone could likely double/tripple online numbers as that would mean much more match-ups and much more interesting team games and meta.
Numbers you pulled out of your hindquarters and based on absolutely nothing. The argument is ludicrous.
@Amoc said:
Numbers you pulled out of your hindquarters and based on absolutely nothing. The argument is ludicrous.
No more or less than your own assertions. We are, all of us, only comparing our fanciful conjectures on what might have happened. With that in mind...
For my part I think that retention would have been better with more factions, but probably not noticeably so for the online multiplayer - I agree with you Amoc, in that there are underlying issues that would have remained unchanged and the gameplay would still have not resonated with players, however I have witnessed first hand that people stick around for the sake of novelty when there is a mass of content, even on a teetering foundation. See the popularity of ultimate apocalypse, a hodge-podge of community creations inexpertly muddled together in a product that is inconsistent in both quality, lore adherence (or even comprehension), balance, and at times even just basic spelling or grammar. But the factions and units are there in force to play with, and players can build a full army of whatever faction they please, even if it is janky in places, and then ask to know when is the next patch for the next slew of content for the trough. People will play a game with low AI so they can see their faction represented in the way that they want, look at it for half an hour, then smash it against the enemy and call it 10/10 material.
I apply the comparison because the design of this mod has many similarities in the moment-to-moment gameplay to what many see in dow3: hero/elite-like units that take on armies by themselves, abilities that obliterate squads, units that become simply meat for the more important units etc. But this means little to the playerbase because that was never the core engagement for them. The variety and the spectacle of them all was, seeing the 40K universe brought to life was. DoW3 has it's scope set on a much, much smaller part of that universe and thus could never scratch that same itch. Some of the most prominent early complaints were generally regarding depiction of the universe - Gabriel's infamous leap, the artstyle, the lascannon FX etc. The complaints of the 1v1 queue with regards to balance and design have little bearing on why so many buy the game and why they left with missed expectations. For instance I know of people that were hoping (somehow) that the necrons would be a surprise reveal, and the revelation that they were not in the game being the biggest disappointment.
@Jazz_Sandwich said:
No more or less than your own assertions. We are, all of us, only comparing our fanciful conjectures on what might have happened.
If you're going to tell me that adding two new factions would have multiplied the player base by a factor of 5, you should be able to reasonably explain how and why. My "assertion" is that there is literally no rational basis for the conjecture. On the other hand, there is plenty of information to suggest otherwise, not the least of which is the glaring lack of successful RTS games that released with 5 factions, or games that multiplied their player base after new factions were introduced.
You could argue that DoW3 is in a unique position compared to other RTS games released (what other RTS games have been released in ht past 5 years that were high quality and not a Relic/Blizzard game?).
So maybe the demand for Races in a DoW game is different than the rest of the industry?
Also, I think many people already own DoW3 but are just not playing it because they got bored - there was a month or two when the game had that 1-3k playerbase after the initial dropoff from release. Attracting these players back if obviously different than attracting new players.
Idk why you think that adding 500 - 2k more players on the concurrent steam player charts is such an insane proposition...
So if you consider DoW3's playerbase to be ~500, then ya, I actually do think that adding 2 new races + any content added with that expansion would, in fact, have a "multiplicative" effect of 5 and increase that playerbase number to that 1k-3k range.
There's a lot of interest in playing Chaos or Xenos races in 40k. Comparatively, there's almost no interest in playing the new factions in games like Grey Goo (i.e. the Shroud).
Gee that sure is a lot of "maybes" "I thinks" and "ifs".
I've no doubt that there's more demand for additional factions in DoW III, particularly Chaos, Tau and Necron. They're working with a popular IP with a devoted fan base. The problem is that you're taking this premise and expanding it to fanciful absurdity, surmising somehow that the new factions will be balanced and expand the meta in such interesting and exciting ways that not only do the fans of these factions join in the fun, but also that hordes of other faction players come back to play against them too.
The problem is that there's a much simpler explanation. People aren't playing the game because they don't like the way it plays.
@Amoc said:
Gee that sure is a lot of "maybes" "I thinks" and "ifs".
I've no doubt that there's more demand for additional factions in DoW III, particularly Chaos, Tau and Necron. They're working with a popular IP with a devoted fan base. The problem is that you're taking this premise and expanding it to fanciful absurdity, surmising somehow that the new factions will be balanced and expand the meta in such interesting and exciting ways that not only do the fans of these factions join in the fun, but also that hordes of other faction players come back to play against them too.
The problem is that there's a much simpler explanation. People aren't playing the game because they don't like the way it plays.
While I don't think the effect on player number would be as dramatic as x5, I do think that representing the other 40k factions needn't bring groundbreaking meta/gameplay design changes in order to provide a larger appeal. Most players in an RTS aren't playing multiplayer and, especially when it comes to 40k, many just are there to see the universe portrayed in a real-time medium. I personally would advocate deeper changes, but based on previous work on the ultimate apocalypse mod team I've come to the conclusion that all of the fanbase aren't necessarily invested in a deeply cerebral experience. Not to disparage that, it's as good a reason as any to play a video game.
My point, I suppose, is that mass appeal doesn't require flawless RTS design when a lot of the players show up for a show. I'd like some reworks personally, but I don't think that's required if the only end goal we're discussing is player count.
1) I really prefer the new content, simply for see new units and a new race, no a rework what do nothing more than changes the game for after see anothers new posts " The rework si bad because blablabla". The actual gameplay it's simply and cool, if u want a deep strategic game go play civilitzation , star craft or gladius.
@Amoc said:
Gee that sure is a lot of "maybes" "I thinks" and "ifs".
I've no doubt that there's more demand for additional factions in DoW III, particularly Chaos, Tau and Necron. They're working with a popular IP with a devoted fan base. The problem is that you're taking this premise and expanding it to fanciful absurdity, surmising somehow that the new factions will be balanced and expand the meta in such interesting and exciting ways that not only do the fans of these factions join in the fun, but also that hordes of other faction players come back to play against them too.
The problem is that there's a much simpler explanation. People aren't playing the game because they don't like the way it plays.
Lol did I ever say that new factions will be balanced ? (btw, DoW3 is FAR more balanced than DoW2 ever was).
All I "surmised" was that new races can increase the concurrent player numbers to 1k-3k instead of 300-600... and that is a "fanciful absurdity?"lol.....
You didn't say it. I proposed it as a likely pre-requisite to the conditions you're suggesting new factions would bring about. If they're not balanced, then they're unlikely to have a positive effect on the meta.
Your suggestions are fanciful because they're not based on anything but wishful thinking and require you to ignore all of the data that would suggest something contrary.
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Comments
VanceStubbs_86
I really hope that Relic involves the community in their decisions. An open beta to test the changes and collect feedback should definitely be there. And as early as possible and not shortly before the release. The best would of course be a public test server where interested players could test the changes live and Relic can experiment with new ideas anytime. That remains only a wishful imagination, because that means a lot of work and effort.
The core gameplay can certainly be changed. Relic has to invest time and resources. The goal should be to bring the old fans back. In the long run, we would have a healthy player base and better reviews. An attractive game automatically attracts more new players.
In CoH 2 doctrines work because the underlying game mechanics are completely different. There I do not need a doctrine that my troops throw a grenade or that I can build a turret. I have passive skills like more accuracy or faster veteran status. Since this was not done in DoW 3, Relic have declared many standard abilities to doctrines to incorporate something like depth into the gameplay.
The whole MOBA-Shitstorm was early on the horizon. Why nobody at Relic beat the alarm bells is incomprehensible to me. It might have been enough to add the Victory Point Gamemode and if it was just in Custom Game. That would have calmed a lot of people. Instead, all signs were ignored. But to say something positive, DoW 3 is the only sixth most disappointing game of 2017:
youtube.com/watch?v=V6A4rz3G2iU
Katitof
You are aware of how placement games function, right?
All arguable features aside, the one thing that set DoW apart from any other RTS games was a wide selection of very varied factions(except everything that carried bolter in DoW1, all of that were reskins) and I also believe new factions alone would make plenty of people return/hop on board, especially when the balance is incomparably better then at release-economy could and probably should be tweaked, but actual unit balance is solid.
Martin
The problem with a rework is that the question is not if and what to rework in the game, no way relic look at feedback this long and not have a long list of suggested features/changes, but the problem is what NOT to rework since you can't do a lot of them and certainly not all of them, because money and time is limited and even if it was not they would want to do the things that matter most first.
Draconix
At least not in the first three places of that ranking!
Though I understand that it wasn't something that all fans wanted. Still I'm satisfied with this game, thought things could be better. But oh well. For me its better than having nothing.
TokyoDream
I'd just like to point out that I came up with that name.
TokyoDream
On the contrary, it's the only acceptable name for Relic to use. It's both apologetic and ambitious.
Amoc
The game needs a rework or it's dead. I know people hate hearing this, and I've been saying it since May, but this game has absolutely no future under the current design scheme. It just doesn't. The MOBA influenced design fell flat on its face from day one and it's never going to get traction. The appeal for it is negligible and I think at this point even Relic understands this given the changes they've made since release.
The argument that more content will revive the player base depends on the idiotic assumption that each new race would have some magical multiplicative effect on the player base. It's wishful thinking and it doesn't make any sense.
vindicarex
Well, what it really comes down to, is that Relic probably never had the time or money to really make a superb DoW3 game.
It doesn't take a genius to know that DoW3 has a dearth of content - 3 races? C'mon, that's a little low. And to top it off - it clearly didn't look like Relic put a whole lot of effort into the graphics department (clearly they went for a more streamlined look - and that's fine I think the game looks very good and especially the sfx and environment) - but this was obviously different than their efforts to give you a visceral photo-realistic experience in DoW2/CoH2 that had a draw for a lot of people. The game also clearly lacks complexity in some departments too (for example, the lack of diverse armor and damage types), so the combat can also be rather straight-forward. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it probably didn't take them a whole lot of time to create this system...
I think it's clear the game could have used a lot of improvements - ya, multiple damage types/armor types would be pretty cool, but it also will probably take more time to develop and implement. The same goes for literally everything else this game is missing. The beta was a joke too - most of the most critical concerns raised were largely ignored and some never addressed.
It's a game that screams that it was rushed to me... which is unfortunately pretty normal for Relic.
I think we can all imagine a better DoW3 - which is why so many just want a DoW4. I think DoW3's fundamental design isn't bad, but it's one that really needed a wealth of content to support it - and clearly we didn't get that. If CoH2/DoW2 and DoW1 spent most of their resources creating an innovative and visceral experience for the player, even at the cost of gameplay functionality and game-smoothness (e.g. pathfinding) , then DoW3 was a release where they spent most of their resource on creating a smooth and polished gameplay/multiplayer experience at the cost of throwing those bells and whistles at players that Relic has been known for.
I think with a constant addition of large maps (remember - small maps DO feels like an Arena instead of a WAR due to the scale of unit production in DoW3 compared to it's predecessors) and new units and new elites and new races, the game can offer a really good 40k multiplayer experience. I have to hand it to Relic on that department here - the 3 Races are really fleshed out and well designed as well as their very polished implementation of basic game coding that makes DoW3 a relatively stable playing experience compared to its predecessors - I experience far less game breaking bugs/exploits in DoW3 relative to DoW2 - and far less frustrating moments of not having precise unit controls.
DoW3 is a good game - but it clearly doesnt have that "WoW" factor the other 2 DoW games had, nor did it have the content and variety present at release to make up for that fact - again, just another sad story of a Relic release that could've been great but ultimately rushed. If DoW3 had another 6 - 12 months of development time, and some quality play testing beyond that joke of a "beta test", it could've been really good...
Dandalus
Both new content and rework.
Amoc
It's absolutely normal to have 3 races/factions on release. Anything more would have been more unusual than not. Again, as I've said, the idea that releasing with 4 or 5 races instead of 3 would have magically multiplied the numbers of people still playing is absurd. This is an additive equation, not a multiplicative one.
vindicarex
Maybe it would've meant 1 - 3k players on instead of 200-500 though... something like that.
Katitof
I'm going with Vindi here.
While the 3 factions we have here are best made in whole DoW series so far and have most depth thanks to elites and doctrines, DoW series is known for many unique factions participating in the conflict and 3 will not only create completely false comparisons to SC2, is simply not enough for DoW title.
One or two new factions alone could likely double/tripple online numbers as that would mean much more match-ups and much more interesting team games and meta.
Stoner
Gotta agree with Amoc here, I'm pretty confident that even if this game would launch with 5 factions, we'll still be sitting in ~500 online now. At release there might be more players though, but considering how this game is designed, brutal player dropoff was inevitable.
I'm not saying I don't want to see new races, sure as hell I do, maybe even more than other, but I don't see any point playing with 10 dudes queuing for PvP in prime time weekend... And yeah, good luck waiting ~12 months before new expansion arrives. Hope to see you all here when that happens, which I highly doubt to see anyone in all honesty...
Mordikye
I'd prefer a rework, but would honestly want the SP campaign reworked as part of it, but that's not happening. So I'd say 1 because I think it's possible...
TokyoDream
I think this is the source of everything that went wrong with DOW3. The only things that seems polished are the armies and interface. The basic building blocks of an RTS.
Everything else feels compromised or unfinished in a way that is not normal for Relic. Even the codex looks rushed and that just requires some data entry. Relic never had Blizzard levels of polish and playtesting but it's never been this bad. I'm just hoping that Relic isn't fixing DOW3 because they know they need some kind of relaunch. It would explain why they are still so unsure of what to do next.
Lakaoum
I think with dow3 will have a real expansion (and of course, that you should pay for it), gameplay changes and adding more content is really possible.
I 'll speak of Starcraft 2 here : Honestly, when WoL was launch, campaign was cool, but multi was not so fun. When thy decide to go for HotS, they rethink the game a lot, and from now, they even can remove units, change abilities etc etc. Fact is the game is (imo) better and better. They can mistake something, they will just correct taht with a patch.
Today, add some doctrines as upgrades is possible, and clearly here, a good part of actual players think the same. If they want they can really rebuild some mechanics, and add on isthe time where you decide to do that. If at this moment they add more contents, more races, a strong solo play.... in fact nothing is loosed. Not at all. I see one other rts that was poor, becoming really more popular to the playerbase that is concerned about this type of RTS : Ashes of Singularity. Lovers of supreme commander or Total annhilition, really want a new RTS game with big macro. AoS was not good. So pretty bad for these players. Then they launch a stand alone : "Escalation". And this time, players, and testers just say that this is a real strong game.
Amoc
Which is still a multiplicative effect (as in 5x larger than today), and there's literally no basis on which to make that suggestion.
I'm SHOCKED!
Numbers you pulled out of your hindquarters and based on absolutely nothing. The argument is ludicrous.
Jazz_Sandwich
No more or less than your own assertions. We are, all of us, only comparing our fanciful conjectures on what might have happened. With that in mind...
For my part I think that retention would have been better with more factions, but probably not noticeably so for the online multiplayer - I agree with you Amoc, in that there are underlying issues that would have remained unchanged and the gameplay would still have not resonated with players, however I have witnessed first hand that people stick around for the sake of novelty when there is a mass of content, even on a teetering foundation. See the popularity of ultimate apocalypse, a hodge-podge of community creations inexpertly muddled together in a product that is inconsistent in both quality, lore adherence (or even comprehension), balance, and at times even just basic spelling or grammar. But the factions and units are there in force to play with, and players can build a full army of whatever faction they please, even if it is janky in places, and then ask to know when is the next patch for the next slew of content for the trough. People will play a game with low AI so they can see their faction represented in the way that they want, look at it for half an hour, then smash it against the enemy and call it 10/10 material.
I apply the comparison because the design of this mod has many similarities in the moment-to-moment gameplay to what many see in dow3: hero/elite-like units that take on armies by themselves, abilities that obliterate squads, units that become simply meat for the more important units etc. But this means little to the playerbase because that was never the core engagement for them. The variety and the spectacle of them all was, seeing the 40K universe brought to life was. DoW3 has it's scope set on a much, much smaller part of that universe and thus could never scratch that same itch. Some of the most prominent early complaints were generally regarding depiction of the universe - Gabriel's infamous leap, the artstyle, the lascannon FX etc. The complaints of the 1v1 queue with regards to balance and design have little bearing on why so many buy the game and why they left with missed expectations. For instance I know of people that were hoping (somehow) that the necrons would be a surprise reveal, and the revelation that they were not in the game being the biggest disappointment.
Amoc
If you're going to tell me that adding two new factions would have multiplied the player base by a factor of 5, you should be able to reasonably explain how and why. My "assertion" is that there is literally no rational basis for the conjecture. On the other hand, there is plenty of information to suggest otherwise, not the least of which is the glaring lack of successful RTS games that released with 5 factions, or games that multiplied their player base after new factions were introduced.
vindicarex
You could argue that DoW3 is in a unique position compared to other RTS games released (what other RTS games have been released in ht past 5 years that were high quality and not a Relic/Blizzard game?).
So maybe the demand for Races in a DoW game is different than the rest of the industry?
Also, I think many people already own DoW3 but are just not playing it because they got bored - there was a month or two when the game had that 1-3k playerbase after the initial dropoff from release. Attracting these players back if obviously different than attracting new players.
Idk why you think that adding 500 - 2k more players on the concurrent steam player charts is such an insane proposition...
So if you consider DoW3's playerbase to be ~500, then ya, I actually do think that adding 2 new races + any content added with that expansion would, in fact, have a "multiplicative" effect of 5 and increase that playerbase number to that 1k-3k range.
There's a lot of interest in playing Chaos or Xenos races in 40k. Comparatively, there's almost no interest in playing the new factions in games like Grey Goo (i.e. the Shroud).
Amoc
Gee that sure is a lot of "maybes" "I thinks" and "ifs".
I've no doubt that there's more demand for additional factions in DoW III, particularly Chaos, Tau and Necron. They're working with a popular IP with a devoted fan base. The problem is that you're taking this premise and expanding it to fanciful absurdity, surmising somehow that the new factions will be balanced and expand the meta in such interesting and exciting ways that not only do the fans of these factions join in the fun, but also that hordes of other faction players come back to play against them too.
The problem is that there's a much simpler explanation. People aren't playing the game because they don't like the way it plays.
TokyoDream
I like the way it plays. This is the sequel to DOW1 I've been waiting for. I'd play a lot more if we had FFA, more races and TLS i.e. more content.
Jazz_Sandwich
While I don't think the effect on player number would be as dramatic as x5, I do think that representing the other 40k factions needn't bring groundbreaking meta/gameplay design changes in order to provide a larger appeal. Most players in an RTS aren't playing multiplayer and, especially when it comes to 40k, many just are there to see the universe portrayed in a real-time medium. I personally would advocate deeper changes, but based on previous work on the ultimate apocalypse mod team I've come to the conclusion that all of the fanbase aren't necessarily invested in a deeply cerebral experience. Not to disparage that, it's as good a reason as any to play a video game.
My point, I suppose, is that mass appeal doesn't require flawless RTS design when a lot of the players show up for a show. I'd like some reworks personally, but I don't think that's required if the only end goal we're discussing is player count.
Reyseth
1) I really prefer the new content, simply for see new units and a new race, no a rework what do nothing more than changes the game for after see anothers new posts " The rework si bad because blablabla". The actual gameplay it's simply and cool, if u want a deep strategic game go play civilitzation , star craft or gladius.
vindicarex
Lol did I ever say that new factions will be balanced ? (btw, DoW3 is FAR more balanced than DoW2 ever was).
All I "surmised" was that new races can increase the concurrent player numbers to 1k-3k instead of 300-600... and that is a "fanciful absurdity?"lol.....
Amoc
You didn't say it. I proposed it as a likely pre-requisite to the conditions you're suggesting new factions would bring about. If they're not balanced, then they're unlikely to have a positive effect on the meta.
Your suggestions are fanciful because they're not based on anything but wishful thinking and require you to ignore all of the data that would suggest something contrary.