How i would impliment squad leaders and specialist units

CANNED_F3TUS

Its clear that alot of peeps want more options to play around with. Quite a chunk are asking for Squadleaders and support units. Elite units for the most part are nukers and CC. But not too many support elites out there. So i thought maybe support and leader units could be buildable to supplement each races roster.

This idea i got basicly is heavily borrowing off of DoW 1s attach unit system.

Leader and support units could be built out of an entirely new building. Or out of existing assets and make it so some need to be researched or have Tier requirements.

The squad leaders and support units for the most part wont have a big health pool maybe as much as your average builder unit.

Most of these single model units would rely on being attached to squads to be trully effective.
And these leaders could give different buffs depending on what squad they get attached to. Could be slight health and damage buff + unique buff or support ability.

I want to add that the health and damage buff on attachment will just be a flat buff. The singular sgt, apoth or warlock wont be adding his health pool and DPS to the squad. It would be handeled as if the affected squad got a 10 or 15% health boost and the leader will just match the percantages but die very last.

Some leaders being niche or limited to what units they may attach too like for example warlock cant attach to rangers, mekboy wont attach to regular slugga squad and apothacary cant attach to ASM. While there could be some squad leaders that can attach to almost any squad like Space marine SGTs could attach to Tacs, Devs, ASM and (also receive their equipment) but not to scouts. Same could go for nob leaders. They can attach to Shootas, sluggas and nobz, while mekboy would only attach to loota and tank busta squads

Costs for these units can be balanced fairly well i think. Instead of hard caps they just need to impliment upkeep or supply costs.

I think this would be a interesting way of adding more units to the game and implimenting leaders and support in a cool way that requires players to make choices instead of just mashing the L hotkeyon a group of guys to magically give every squad and their mothers a leader.

Feel free to comment what you guys think. Been brooding on this a while.

Ololo111

Balance-wise, the easiest way to implement those leaders would be to strip their bonus provided to the squad from the doctrines:

Like, SM seargent can provide Grenade to TM squad, Shield to HBD's and so on, being identical on stats with other races squadleaders (and yes, being invisible on Scouts and flying like an idiot on ASM's).

Anyway, I see a bit of conflict between doctrines and those squad-based bonuses (which is not flat enchancement to stats) providing any sort of abilities. This should be regarded with care with current 3 races.

Of course, if Relic are to design a new one, with slightly different approach to Elites and Doctrines..

CANNED_F3TUS

@Ololo111 said:
Balance-wise, the easiest way to implement those leaders would be to strip their bonus provided to the squad from the doctrines:

Like, SM seargent can provide Grenade to TM squad, Shield to HBD's and so on, being identical on stats with other races squadleaders (and yes, being invisible on Scouts and flying like an idiot on ASM's).

Anyway, I see a bit of conflict between doctrines and those squad-based bonuses (which is not flat enchancement to stats) providing any sort of abilities. This should be regarded with care with current 3 races.

Of course, if Relic are to design a new one, with slightly different approach to Elites and Doctrines..

YeAh i think they just need to be careful on how they approach Squad leaders and support units. I would like to see them taking the innovative and interesting approach to leadership and support units.

I really would like to see them move away from DoW 1 and 2s squad leader upgrade system and go with a DoW 1 attach unit scheme.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:
Well, you could attach them.

Or treat them as semi elites.

I proposed a time ago, theat elite points are to be an proper ressource with an gain of tens or even hundreds per minute. Then they could be attached to other stuff, like in game upgrades.
How cool would it be to have an sternguard veteran upgrade for Tacs costing elite pts, maybe 50? Or have elite pts for squadleaders or upgrades that give special things, like an doctrin or wargear-esque thing?

Hmm this could work. But we would have to make sure that every faction has the equivelant of the sternguard upgrade. And these upgrades would have to be rediculously expensive to the point where you can truelly only do it on one squad as a build investment or whatever.

Like Tacs can become,sternguard
Shootas can become,flash gitz
Dire avengers well thats one i dont know about and that would be the problem. They could give them veteran dire avenger for a title and buff dps and health?

Also elite points would need a slight rework as you specified. Which wouldnt be a bad idea it would certainly make elite points mean a whole,lot more especially in end game and open up a few more options.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:
Well, this qould also allow to give eldar aspect warrior upgrade for Dire Avengers and have normal guardians. That would also solve a problem. Orks could have flash gitz or become scar-boyz.

With giving it an meaningfull price in terms of req, power and elite pts + having it locked in some way to T2 or 3 or onto Waagh stages/porrtal upgrades macro balance would be save.

Yeah guardians would be the way. Also...

Tyranids. Nids dont have that stuff. So they would have to go with specialized or mutated strains as their vet upgrades kinda like zerg from starcraft. And their support units could be zoanthropes and such.

Draconix

Squad leaders could be nice addition. But.........

..........When I look at Dow1 and Dow2, most squad leaders, especially in Dow1 where just a squad member with stronger stats and unique look. Sure, squad leaders had some usefull abilites like morale restore for Tacticals or stealth detection for Warlock and I even always reinforced squads with leaders if availible but some of those weren't unique than squad itself aside of better stats and abilities.

As for Dow2, usually I reinforced squads when I had some population points not spended, but I used to give Warlocks for Wraithguards due to its usefull ability, specifically speed boost. But outside of them I think that I rarely spended population and resources for squad members since I prefer to buy more units instead.

Overall I think squad leaders could be nice feature, but I would prefer this feature to not cost population like in most races in Dow1. But I suspose that if Relic would ever implement squad leaders feature to Dow3, then it would probably make them cost population as well just like in Dow2. If so, then I will use that feature rarely in this game too.

Draconix

@Nassir_Amit said:
Because you are capable of reaching the pop cap in every game?

Well to be honest, I like to smash AI with big armies, even in Dow2!

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Draconix said:

@Nassir_Amit said:
Because you are capable of reaching the pop cap in every game?

Well to be honest, I like to smash AI with big armies, even in Dow2!

you have an 250 pop cap in this gaem. If the leader would cost between 1-3 it would be barely noticable

Hmmm my idea would make leaders and support units a bit more expensive but worth it. You could go ham on buying squad leader or support unit but you will have smaller army with less vehicle support.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Draconix said:

@Nassir_Amit said:
Because you are capable of reaching the pop cap in every game?

Well to be honest, I like to smash AI with big armies, even in Dow2!

you have an 250 pop cap in this gaem. If the leader would cost between 1-3 it would be barely noticable

Hmmm my idea would make leaders and support units a bit more expensive but worth it. You could go ham on buying squad leader or support unit but you will have smaller army with less vehicle support.

Depending on the strength of the leaders or their supportive abilities, that seems a good way

Yeah. Support units like mekboys and tech marines could be individually tougher or higher HP and cheaper on power so you could field a more mech like army.

tritol

I would be happy with simple stuff like researching slow upgrade for HBDs would add some shiny bits to squads armour and weapons ... or doctrines adding some visuals aside from ugly floating icon next to healthbar, I dont know something like rocket jump for orks would add springs to their boots? sounds orky enough for me

Achernar

Since not all squads have leaders (like devastators) I would incorporate squad leaders into doctrines. For example, Dire Avengers shield doctrine would add/replace one member with an exarch who wields a shimmershield and a power glaive. He can even grant a powerful melee attack with like a minute long cooldown to take down a model in melee, kinda fits the lore.

Stoner

As much as I liked attach option in DOW I, I think it would be unnecessary hassle implementing it into this game. There are much easier ways to do this which won't wreck entire game structure and balance. BUT giving us very simple but useful function such as "follow unit" would be incredible. Why we even have to ask for basic RTS stuff anyway?... Anyway, a few points:

• As long as Elites will remain heavy Nukers and CC'ers gameplay will be broken. The only way to fix it is to make them into supporters/tanks dependent on affinity. Easy-peasy to do and it will solve shitloads of issues this game currently has, even mitigate mandatory Elite picks to high degree if done right.
• Squad Leaders feel like a leftover that belonged into this game from day one. Instead of letting to build single units (this is NOT SC FFS! NO!) just give an option to permanently get different squad leaders, like for tacs choice of Apoc or Sarge, for sluggas: Nob or Painboy, etc, etc. It is VERY easy to balance it with appropriate cost, lock it behind tech, building, etc. All tools at devs disposal. Also it's kinda classic DOW feature which would be welcomed if not by everyone, but majority, I'm sure. Units upgrades included btw.

On the side note, squad based RTS with no emphasis on squad or unit preservation makes absolutely no sense no matter how you looking at it. Relic can bent themselves over, but they will fix economy for the game not to feel like ++heresy redacted++ spamfest, as long as losing units won't matter.

Other proposals already made by some players:

• Cover rework. As I've already expressed many times that directional one won't work for this game for LOADS of obvious reasons, rework is still needed to introduce something like bonus surface, high/low ground etc. It's not RNG, it may provide small bonuses but it will encourage positioning, which should matter in RTS. Also, FFS, get rid off stupid bubbles and smoke/grass, this is ridiculous, it doesn't encourage anything but cheese and looks completely ++heresy redacted++ IMO.
• Heavy reduction on CC needed both for Elites and for line units.
• Heavy reduction on ability overuse, by either making them much less impactful (like in DOW I f.e.) or simply cutting down on quantity, turn on auto-cast, whatever. This isn't DOW II where you barely control 4-7 units, this isn't SC2 or MOBA, this is big scale, squad based RTS game, or it's supposed to be, where positioning, macro and squad micro should matter, not oh-so-popular skillshots and army-gibbing-super-heroes kids are so fond of these days.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Stoner said:
As much as I liked attach option in DOW I, I think it would be unnecessary hassle implementing it into this game. There are much easier ways to do this which won't wreck entire game structure and balance. BUT giving us very simple but useful function such as "follow unit" would be incredible. Why we even have to ask for basic RTS stuff anyway?... Anyway, a few points:

• As long as Elites will remain heavy Nukers and CC'ers gameplay will be broken. The only way to fix it is to make them into supporters/tanks dependent on affinity. Easy-peasy to do and it will solve shitloads of issues this game currently has, even mitigate mandatory Elite picks to high degree if done right.
• Squad Leaders feel like a leftover that belonged into this game from day one. Instead of letting to build single units (this is NOT SC FFS! NO!) just give an option to permanently get different squad leaders, like for tacs choice of Apoc or Sarge, for sluggas: Nob or Painboy, etc, etc. It is VERY easy to balance it with appropriate cost, lock it behind tech, building, etc. All tools at devs disposal. Also it's kinda classic DOW feature which would be welcomed if not by everyone, but majority, I'm sure. Units upgrades included btw.

On the side note, squad based RTS with no emphasis on squad or unit preservation makes absolutely no sense no matter how you looking at it. Relic can bent themselves over, but they will fix economy for the game not to feel like ++heresy redacted++ spamfest, as long as losing units won't matter.

Other proposals already made by some players:

• Cover rework. As I've already expressed many times that directional one won't work for this game for LOADS of obvious reasons, rework is still needed to introduce something like bonus surface, high/low ground etc. It's not RNG, it may provide small bonuses but it will encourage positioning, which should matter in RTS. Also, FFS, get rid off stupid bubbles and smoke/grass, this is ridiculous, it doesn't encourage anything but cheese and looks completely ++heresy redacted++ IMO.
• Heavy reduction on CC needed both for Elites and for line units.
• Heavy reduction on ability overuse, by either making them much less impactful (like in DOW I f.e.) or simply cutting down on quantity, turn on auto-cast, whatever. This isn't DOW II where you barely control 4-7 units, this isn't SC2 or MOBA, this is big scale, squad based RTS game, or it's supposed to be, where positioning, macro and squad micro should matter, not oh-so-popular skillshots and army-gibbing-super-heroes kids are so fond of these days.

Agree on many points except for concealment cover removal. It doesnt just encourage cheeze but unitposituining and opens up some tactics one can employ

On the attach squad leader part. I dont see a hassle,in it at all cause one will only be able to produce maybe 5 squad leaders if they made them expensive but useful

Stoner

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
Agree on many points except for concealment cover removal. It doesnt just encourage cheeze but unitposituining and opens up some tactics one can employ

On paper yes, in reality it is just another Titan hiding in the bushes and Dark Reaper squad who you can't order to fire at will which is ++heresy redacted++ crucial for any setup team. Feature is way too gimmicky, especially for 40k based game IMO.

On the attach squad leader part. I dont see a hassle,in it at all cause one will only be able to produce maybe 5 squad leaders if they made them expensive but useful

There we go with unit limitations (how much)? Possibility of attachment swapping as cheeze, making unintended use of single unit, like you could un-attach Apo with regen and send it to melee enemy ranged squad while you melting them with your tacs. Sarge + Apo in one squad could be OP, etc, etc. Potentially all these issues could be solved and made to work fine, but since this isn't Blizzard we're talking about, I guess with easier proposals to work with, we'll get better results.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Stoner said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
Agree on many points except for concealment cover removal. It doesnt just encourage cheeze but unitposituining and opens up some tactics one can employ

On paper yes, in reality it is just another Titan hiding in the bushes and Dark Reaper squad who you can't order to fire at will which is ++heresy redacted++ crucial for any setup team. Feature is way too gimmicky, especially for 40k based game IMO.

On the attach squad leader part. I dont see a hassle,in it at all cause one will only be able to produce maybe 5 squad leaders if they made them expensive but useful

There we go with unit limitations (how much)? Possibility of attachment swapping as cheeze, making unintended use of single unit, like you could un-attach Apo with regen and send it to melee enemy ranged squad while you melting them with your tacs. Sarge + Apo in one squad could be OP, etc, etc. Potentially all these issues could be solved and made to work fine, but since this isn't Blizzard we're talking about, I guess with easier proposals to work with, we'll get better results.

Hmm wasnt speaking of limitations more of a upkeep and costs that limits squad,leaders where if you build,to many you aint helping yourself etc etc.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:
I think, a squad leader should be an upgrade and not detachable. Apos and Techmarines- ish unit types should be speperat

Tech marine apo units could,be just solo units and classed as support.

TokyoDream

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Bigamo said:
Apo and TM should be elites imo.

But the base army depends on elites to have punch through class and not mass.
So until they give us some bigger units for the line roster, it seems not wise to have so many small elites

I'd like there to be a place for apothecaries but I don't see them as elites. They are perfect for a squad upgrade.

TM could be a really cool elite. You could give him a thunder fire cannon or a squad of servitors or servo skulls to see hidden units. He could be a flexible support elite. Like a swiss army knife. He could even be an elite that consumes elite points. He could be cheap to "summon" but different gear/servitors would require elite points so you could customize his role. Your imagination is the limit when it comes to a TM.

CANNED_F3TUS

@TokyoDream said:

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Bigamo said:
Apo and TM should be elites imo.

But the base army depends on elites to have punch through class and not mass.
So until they give us some bigger units for the line roster, it seems not wise to have so many small elites

I'd like there to be a place for apothecaries but I don't see them as elites. They are perfect for a squad upgrade.

TM could be a really cool elite. You could give him a thunder fire cannon or a squad of servitors or servo skulls to see hidden units. He could be a flexible support elite. Like a swiss army knife. He could even be an elite that consumes elite points. He could be cheap to "summon" but different gear/servitors would require elite points so you could customize his role. Your imagination is the limit when it comes to a TM.

How about apoth as an independent support unit?

TokyoDream

@CANNED_F3TUS said:

@TokyoDream said:

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Bigamo said:
Apo and TM should be elites imo.

But the base army depends on elites to have punch through class and not mass.
So until they give us some bigger units for the line roster, it seems not wise to have so many small elites

I'd like there to be a place for apothecaries but I don't see them as elites. They are perfect for a squad upgrade.

TM could be a really cool elite. You could give him a thunder fire cannon or a squad of servitors or servo skulls to see hidden units. He could be a flexible support elite. Like a swiss army knife. He could even be an elite that consumes elite points. He could be cheap to "summon" but different gear/servitors would require elite points so you could customize his role. Your imagination is the limit when it comes to a TM.

How about apoth as an independent support unit?

Like a unit that isn't an elite that's just an independent guy? I feel like that goes against the design of DOW games. A single person has to be very powerful to not be a part of a squad. He might as well be an elite and I don't think apothecaries are important enough to justify an elite. Elites should be badass. A unit that just heals isn't very badass.

CANNED_F3TUS

@TokyoDream said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:

@TokyoDream said:

@Nassir_Amit said:

@Bigamo said:
Apo and TM should be elites imo.

But the base army depends on elites to have punch through class and not mass.
So until they give us some bigger units for the line roster, it seems not wise to have so many small elites

I'd like there to be a place for apothecaries but I don't see them as elites. They are perfect for a squad upgrade.

TM could be a really cool elite. You could give him a thunder fire cannon or a squad of servitors or servo skulls to see hidden units. He could be a flexible support elite. Like a swiss army knife. He could even be an elite that consumes elite points. He could be cheap to "summon" but different gear/servitors would require elite points so you could customize his role. Your imagination is the limit when it comes to a TM.

How about apoth as an independent support unit?

Like a unit that isn't an elite that's just an independent guy? I feel like that goes against the design of DOW games. A single person has to be very powerful to not be a part of a squad. He might as well be an elite and I don't think apothecaries are important enough to justify an elite. Elites should be badass. A unit that just heals isn't very badass.

Apoth would be more of a support unit. Not elite. Could be a pricey unit but has an AOE healing ability and a buff ability for a single squad and have a little more health than your builder. Same could be done with all the other races. Orks could get mek boy or pain boy and eldar get warlock which would be more of a offensive unit with a flame AOE attack since eldar dont have many ways to deal with heavy cover

Think this would be a good way to fill the army roster up better. Cause atm there are no real support line units in DoW 3 which is kinda sucky imo cause the previous DoW had support units. Just sucks that we are limited to picking early elites for any form of support.