Reduce HQ Income + Refund

vindicarex

+330 req for, essentially, free means controlling the map in the early game is essentially worthless. Combine this with the large refund rate, it's almost impossible not to "spam" units.

Given the change to power generators awhile back, the requisition rate should have also come down. This change will also serve to encourage more careful use of units in the early game, and therefore promote more of that skirmish vibe found in Dawn of War 1 and Dawn of War 2.

Additionally, the jump in power income between escalation phases 1 and 2 is too large, it should be balanced out more.

I would like to see the base income on the HQ reduced to something between 200-250 req, but then give a little more +req income on the requisition generators (Which are basically worthless to have, unless you manage to keep a lot alive for like 25 minutes). This change will also serve to make economy harass more significant (And therefore, reward styles of play other than "run everything into opponent's base"). This is something every top player I've talked to noted - that you cannot get ahead of your opponent in any significant manner except for playing the meta (that "run as many units as possible down the middle"). And so, we have this meta that is essentially a back and forth slug-fest with units reinforcing anywhere they please. The game needs to promote strategic diversity (and therefore, reduce this overbearing meta seen in DoW3 since release).

I like Relic's games where you have a solid base income - but this income is too powerful to the exclusion of going for early game "macro" builds.

Jazz_Sandwich

I'd like to see this. It would also help prevent the req bloat and subsequently the perceived "spam meta".

Katitof

Wouldn't side effect of this be return of early game elite stacking to overpower smaller line unit army?
Protection of gens would become utterly mandatory, therefore making LPs mandatory, diminishing size of early game army and going back to step 1, with early game elites dominating.

Gorb

Moved to Feedback & Suggestions (with a redirect).

vindicarex

@Gorb said:
Moved to Feedback & Suggestions (with a redirect).

Totally forgot we had that sub-forum.

vindicarex

@Katitof said:
Wouldn't side effect of this be return of early game elite stacking to overpower smaller line unit army?
Protection of gens would become utterly mandatory, therefore making LPs mandatory, diminishing size of early game army and going back to step 1, with early game elites dominating.

Are protection of resources not "mandatory" in, like, every other RTS? My problem is that losing your req/power gens is almost meaningless in the early game (which is dumb, because Economy harass should be most potent in the early game).

Yes, it would effectively increase the impact of Early game Elites - something Relic has been rightfully reducing. But, that's why the Elite Point system should be changed too.

Katitof

@vindicarex said:

@Katitof said:
Wouldn't side effect of this be return of early game elite stacking to overpower smaller line unit army?
Protection of gens would become utterly mandatory, therefore making LPs mandatory, diminishing size of early game army and going back to step 1, with early game elites dominating.

Are protection of resources not "mandatory" in, like, every other RTS? My problem is that losing your req/power gens is almost meaningless in the early game (which is dumb, because Economy harass should be most potent in the early game).

Yes, it would effectively increase the impact of Early game Elites - something Relic has been rightfully reducing. But, that's why the Elite Point system should be changed too.

I'm obviously not talking about abandonment of resource protection, more about the fact that you couldn't even think of moving away your army away from gen node without leaving LP behind.

I fully agree that early game gen bashes aren't meaningful hits in comparison to base income compared to just attacking gen and maybe single closest node right away

Ololo111

1) "Skirmish vibe" is quite different in DoW1 and DoW2, to my mind.

2) Comeback options, you're attempting to kill them. Your natural HQ income proportional to the speed you are be able to replace your casualities with appropriate build (there are quite effective ones, like 3 Scouts + LP able to stop 5 TM attack) early in game.
After the first skirmish being lost (in DoW1 sense), you can still defend your assets, like LP's, or concede shield gen to rebuild your army, bring new Elites - there are decisive options, still.
I'm afraid, with less than 300 of basic income, most of the games will be decided in <7 minutes and prior T2.

Additionally, the jump in power income between escalation phases 1 and 2 is too large, it should be balanced out more.

No doubt, but closer to what it had previously been.

Dandalus

I 100% agree with original post. Well said @vindicarex

vindicarex

@Bigamo said:
i agree, revert patch 1 changes to economy... 25% unit refund, 260 Req from HQ and 200 Req LP.

That way aggression was ALREADY the best idea, but ecotech was possible. After economy changes unit spam was the only way to play.

No Bigamo, eco tech then was too easy.

Both aggression and Eco tech should be hard

Better to nerf aggression (which is a symptom of many aspects like forward base and insane early game elites, etc.) than to buff "eco tech" they way you want.

Dandalus

I love this game and it can get better, by better i mean reaching a very high quality level. RELIC plz fix it.

vindicarex

In fact, maybe the basse income should come down even below 200 req - make it more akin to DoW1 economy than DoW2/CoH

Dandalus

@vindicarex said:
In fact, maybe the basse income should come down even below 200 req - make it more akin to DoW1 economy than DoW2/CoH

Yes, I 100% agree this or something similar needs to happen, Firestorm over Kaurava had the best hq income I ever seen in DoW series.

Dandalus

Why I see your name in jail bars.

Katitof

@Dandalus said:
Why I see your name in jail bars.

infractions

Dandalus

@Katitof said:

@Dandalus said:
Why I see your name in jail bars.

infractions

Oh thanx

Dandalus

Also, I find escalation phases be laughable, a testimony of lazy design, instead remove them and make upgrades and resource generators actually matter.

CANNED_F3TUS

@Nassir_Amit said:
I´d rather have some more ways to preserve stuff then have it refunded.

Simple reduce the destructiveness of AO combos, improve health a lil bit and unit preservation will drastically improve. And cut refund down a bit. Unit preservation will mean alot more

Katitof

@Nassir_Amit said:
I´d rather have some more ways to preserve stuff then have it refunded.

And that's the problem as the game was designed and balanced with intention of losing squads.
That's why squads aren't impossibly durable as in DoW1 or can't retreat as in DoW2, but each loss is partly refunded and later on the income is so massive, its not relevant anymore.