I'd say there is little reason to not go for them above certain skill level as you're capable of holding out early game and can work on snowball for mid and late game.
@Katitof said:
I'd say there is little reason to not go for them above certain skill level as you're capable of holding out early game and can work on snowball for mid and late game.
Assault Terminators and Ven Dread are quite a bit more impactful and come out slightly later.
@Jazz_Sandwich said:
The presence doctrine for ranged terminators is very stronk. Even just for that they are an appealing choice.
Their Command ability is also obscenely good, although less popular.
Does anyone feel that Terminators need more Micro management than other Elites like the Venerable Dreadnaught and Assault Terminators? Are they really worth the effort? Some guys I play with say what is the point of the no deployement Doctrines for Devastators when in 1v1 you usually are not massing Devastators?
@Reposter said:
Does anyone feel that Terminators need more Micro management than other Elites like the Venerable Dreadnaught and Assault Terminators? Are they really worth the effort? Some guys I play with say what is the point of the no deployement Doctrines for Devastators when in 1v1 you usually are not massing Devastators?
Terminators are as hands off as you want them to be. It's no different than other presence abilities that buff specific units. If you're not using those units, then using the command is more beneficial.
As far as microintensive elites go, they're somewhere in the middle. You can attack move with them just fine but there are times when you need to force melee and their cyclone missile launcher is extremely powerful when used properly. Other elites require way more babysitting, but they're not as mindless as assault terminators or Mad dredd can be.
The most microintensive elites tend to be the ork ones. Weirdboy, Kommando, Meganobz, Wazmakka, Lifta Droppa etc. All are very micro intensive and not very effective with a simple attack move.
@Thunderhost said: @Dullahan You honestly think Orks are more microintensive than Eldar?
Oh yeah totally. Taldeer and Kayduin have the highest skill ceiling in the game though.
Not sure about this, but I heard that Taldeer is the least used Super Elite in the game, perhaps due to lack of ranged attack and high skill, though she is also the strongest melee unit in the game as well. But its just what I heard and read.
A-termies are very good choice because of presence doctrine if you want to free up slot for anything else, while in combat they are quite useless - die like flies in melee and slam has so long windup, it is literally impossible to cast with any opponent who at least rarely looking at the screen. Ranged termies are better in combat, but since devs are useless, because you just spam tacs and lasdevs, their presence becomes obsolete.
From what I've seen, usual choice of SM is: DW-Chappy-Gabe/A-termies/VenDread (because chainstun into nuke is quite easy to pull off and devastating for enemy army). BBB usually pick Ironclad, I'm sure because he is bored with other Elite choices. Not bad CCer, but nothing special either. Anyway, in 1v1 3rd Elite rarely sees the light, so best choice is good presence or low cost.
@Thunderhost said: @Dullahan You honestly think Orks are more microintensive than Eldar?
Oh yeah totally. Taldeer and Kayduin have the highest skill ceiling in the game though.
Not sure about this, but I heard that Taldeer is the least used Super Elite in the game, perhaps due to lack of ranged attack and high skill, though she is also the strongest melee unit in the game as well. But its just what I heard and read.
I'd believe it, she's hard to use and her effectiveness isn't super obvious. (Eldritch Curse doing massive percentage damage to anything she whacks out of Stasis) Wraithknight is more popular because he shoots a giant laser which is much more impressive looking, but actually quite a bit less powerful overall. People don't understand how powerful it is being able to take huge chunks of your opponents army out of the fight with stasis is, and then selectively assassinating elites and tanky vehicles. Taldeer can basically 2 shot a Dreadnought with Eldritch curse.
@Dullahan Would you care to elaborate a bit on why orks are more intensive with regards to Eldar. I play mainly Eldar, but find Orks MUCH easier in the micro-department. Alas not at your level, so please do indulge me
@Thunderhost said: @Dullahan Would you care to elaborate a bit on why orks are more intensive with regards to Eldar. I play mainly Eldar, but find Orks MUCH easier in the micro-department. Alas not at your level, so please do indulge me
In terms of Elites, most Ork elites actually require a lot of finesse to use effectively. Faction wise Orks can be a little simpler in terms of army fights, but they have a very complicated macro element (scrap management.)
For example, Kommando has to be close. You have to be careful about how you use his shotgun charges so you don't waste them. His stun has a wind up which can be interrupted and will get him killed. (He can't escape melee without it and has a large hitbox so he tends to get surrounded and die.) So basically using Kommando is tricky because he has to get close to do anything, but if he's in melee he has limited options to escape. And then there's the whole constantly placing booby traps down thing.
Wazmakka similarly his basic attack is okay but nothing to write home about as a 4 point Elite. Jonah's attack for example bounces between targets and does more damage than Wazmakka's. You have to constantly use his abilities to get good effect out of him. Traktor beam can be used on allies, enemies or as a way of leaping Wazmakka away so you have to be pretty choosy about how you use it. Can also fling units back towards Wazmakka (both allied and friendly) which lets you do some different things. And then his Orbital Scrap requires you to constantly be calling down scrap. This used to be harder when the AoE was smaller but it's still constant attention.
Weirdboy is a bit more straightforward but he's also made of paper. Like the Kommando, he struggles in melee. If you teleport into an engagement the Weirdboy is going to have a hard time escaping. Likewise, good use of his scrap blast and fist of gork is necessary to justify him . His autoatack got nerfed hard when they took the AoE away because damagewise it was balanced around hitting multiple entities so he has the weakest attack of all similar Elites (Macha, Jonah, Wazmakka) and is also the squishiest elite in the game.
Mega Nobz do very mediocre damage compared to Terminators or something like Warp Spiders. Their strength is their utility: namely the Electrik Fence. The other thing they have going for them is unlike Terminators, they can benefit from Waaagh bonuses. They're very tricky to use compared to say the Mad Dredd which is why they're one of the least common elite choices across all game modes.
Lifta Droppa is also an extremely difficult elite to use effectively because his impact almost entirely depends entirely on how you use him. In combat he's extremely mediocre and because he's a low HP vehicle he's pretty weak to stuff like Dark Reapers or Jonah. But he also has one of the strongest presence abilities in the game with Deffkopta shields and he can pull a single squad or elite out of the fight for several seconds with his basic attack, making him a pretty solid counter to certain Elites like Jain Zar or Gabriel.
Most Eldar elites on the other hand don't need to juggle abilities to be useful, with the exception of Macha. Ronahn snipes things real good, Striking Scorpions just function as a super banshee squad, Kyre and Jain Zar are fairly intuitive to use effectively. Warp Spiders do a ton of DPS so you can completely ignore their teleport or slow mines and still do excellent with them. I'm not saying they don't need any micro or don't benefit from it, but many Ork elites are downright useless without proper ability usage.
@Dullahan Thank you for that, very insightful.
Would you think that this micro-intensiveness on ork elitepart could be based on the fact that the faction, unitwise, is less intensive than eldar (if it is). I find that eldar need much more positioning, moving back and forth etc, than orks or sm. So what I'm saying is that the taxation on micro is levied onto the ork elites, whereas it's on the eldars basic units?
@Thunderhost said: @Dullahan Thank you for that, very insightful.
Would you think that this micro-intensiveness on ork elitepart could be based on the fact that the faction, unitwise, is less intensive than eldar (if it is). I find that eldar need much more positioning, moving back and forth etc, than orks or sm. So what I'm saying is that the taxation on micro is levied onto the ork elites, whereas it's on the eldars basic units?
It varies really. With Orks you can get away with a lot of attack move with Waaagh bonus active, but there is a lot of potential for micro. (Every unit has an active ability to micro, sometimes 2-3 with doctrines.) Not to mention using War Trukks to launch units into position or using gretchins to constantly produce new units from medium/large scrap piles.
I'd say Orks have the highest ceiling for raw APM micro and macro, but Eldar have a lot of really cool micro opportunities. (Like Webway gate networks to transport armies bouncing around the map.) Plus Eldar units tend to be a bit more fragile overall.
@Stoner said:
A-termies are very good choice because of presence doctrine if you want to free up slot for anything else, while in combat they are quite useless
Assault Termies are melee champions. They're meant to counter elites and walkers like Dreadnoughts/Deff Dreads. They shred Nobs and Wraithblades apart too.
Also their Dreadnought ability is extremely good. Especially weith Invigorating Slam. Gives Dreadnoughts a ton more mobility.
@Thunderhost said: @Dullahan You honestly think Orks are more microintensive than Eldar?
Oh yeah totally. Taldeer and Kayduin have the highest skill ceiling in the game though.
Taldeer is pretty mediocre though. She's a melee elite that takes 2.5x damage from back attacks and has less HP than Solaria, a ranged superheavy elite. She can jump, but unlike ranged variant she needs to cross a lot of distance twice, to engage the enemies and to run away. She can be kited. Her stasis, unlike Macha's doesn't last long. Eldritch curse is good only against high HP targets. Eldritch slash is easy to dodge due to long cast time. Her doctrines are pretty mediocre too. 50% damage resist on 40 power quick strike upgrade? ASM get 75% for free on their jump and leap moves.
Ok, basically Eldar Heroes are more Micro intensive and rewarding than SM equivalents? I have not played Orks much, so not too sure what is a good combination and what top tier play is like...?
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Dullahan
I regularly see Terminators from high level SM with something like Deathwatch/Diomedes or Deathwatch/Gabriel.
They seem to be one of the more popular choices for a mid game elite.
Katitof
I'd say there is little reason to not go for them above certain skill level as you're capable of holding out early game and can work on snowball for mid and late game.
Jazz_Sandwich
The presence doctrine for ranged terminators is very stronk. Even just for that they are an appealing choice.
Dullahan
Assault Terminators and Ven Dread are quite a bit more impactful and come out slightly later.
Their Command ability is also obscenely good, although less popular.
Reposter
Does anyone feel that Terminators need more Micro management than other Elites like the Venerable Dreadnaught and Assault Terminators? Are they really worth the effort? Some guys I play with say what is the point of the no deployement Doctrines for Devastators when in 1v1 you usually are not massing Devastators?
Dullahan
Terminators are as hands off as you want them to be. It's no different than other presence abilities that buff specific units. If you're not using those units, then using the command is more beneficial.
As far as microintensive elites go, they're somewhere in the middle. You can attack move with them just fine but there are times when you need to force melee and their cyclone missile launcher is extremely powerful when used properly. Other elites require way more babysitting, but they're not as mindless as assault terminators or Mad dredd can be.
The most microintensive elites tend to be the ork ones. Weirdboy, Kommando, Meganobz, Wazmakka, Lifta Droppa etc. All are very micro intensive and not very effective with a simple attack move.
Thunderhost
@Dullahan You honestly think Orks are more microintensive than Eldar?
Dullahan
Oh yeah totally. Taldeer and Kayduin have the highest skill ceiling in the game though.
Draconix
Not sure about this, but I heard that Taldeer is the least used Super Elite in the game, perhaps due to lack of ranged attack and high skill, though she is also the strongest melee unit in the game as well. But its just what I heard and read.
Stoner
A-termies are very good choice because of presence doctrine if you want to free up slot for anything else, while in combat they are quite useless - die like flies in melee and slam has so long windup, it is literally impossible to cast with any opponent who at least rarely looking at the screen. Ranged termies are better in combat, but since devs are useless, because you just spam tacs and lasdevs, their presence becomes obsolete.
From what I've seen, usual choice of SM is: DW-Chappy-Gabe/A-termies/VenDread (because chainstun into nuke is quite easy to pull off and devastating for enemy army). BBB usually pick Ironclad, I'm sure because he is bored with other Elite choices. Not bad CCer, but nothing special either. Anyway, in 1v1 3rd Elite rarely sees the light, so best choice is good presence or low cost.
Dullahan
I'd believe it, she's hard to use and her effectiveness isn't super obvious. (Eldritch Curse doing massive percentage damage to anything she whacks out of Stasis) Wraithknight is more popular because he shoots a giant laser which is much more impressive looking, but actually quite a bit less powerful overall. People don't understand how powerful it is being able to take huge chunks of your opponents army out of the fight with stasis is, and then selectively assassinating elites and tanky vehicles. Taldeer can basically 2 shot a Dreadnought with Eldritch curse.
Thunderhost
@Dullahan Would you care to elaborate a bit on why orks are more intensive with regards to Eldar. I play mainly Eldar, but find Orks MUCH easier in the micro-department. Alas not at your level, so please do indulge me
Dullahan
In terms of Elites, most Ork elites actually require a lot of finesse to use effectively. Faction wise Orks can be a little simpler in terms of army fights, but they have a very complicated macro element (scrap management.)
For example, Kommando has to be close. You have to be careful about how you use his shotgun charges so you don't waste them. His stun has a wind up which can be interrupted and will get him killed. (He can't escape melee without it and has a large hitbox so he tends to get surrounded and die.) So basically using Kommando is tricky because he has to get close to do anything, but if he's in melee he has limited options to escape. And then there's the whole constantly placing booby traps down thing.
Wazmakka similarly his basic attack is okay but nothing to write home about as a 4 point Elite. Jonah's attack for example bounces between targets and does more damage than Wazmakka's. You have to constantly use his abilities to get good effect out of him. Traktor beam can be used on allies, enemies or as a way of leaping Wazmakka away so you have to be pretty choosy about how you use it. Can also fling units back towards Wazmakka (both allied and friendly) which lets you do some different things. And then his Orbital Scrap requires you to constantly be calling down scrap. This used to be harder when the AoE was smaller but it's still constant attention.
Weirdboy is a bit more straightforward but he's also made of paper. Like the Kommando, he struggles in melee. If you teleport into an engagement the Weirdboy is going to have a hard time escaping. Likewise, good use of his scrap blast and fist of gork is necessary to justify him . His autoatack got nerfed hard when they took the AoE away because damagewise it was balanced around hitting multiple entities so he has the weakest attack of all similar Elites (Macha, Jonah, Wazmakka) and is also the squishiest elite in the game.
Mega Nobz do very mediocre damage compared to Terminators or something like Warp Spiders. Their strength is their utility: namely the Electrik Fence. The other thing they have going for them is unlike Terminators, they can benefit from Waaagh bonuses. They're very tricky to use compared to say the Mad Dredd which is why they're one of the least common elite choices across all game modes.
Lifta Droppa is also an extremely difficult elite to use effectively because his impact almost entirely depends entirely on how you use him. In combat he's extremely mediocre and because he's a low HP vehicle he's pretty weak to stuff like Dark Reapers or Jonah. But he also has one of the strongest presence abilities in the game with Deffkopta shields and he can pull a single squad or elite out of the fight for several seconds with his basic attack, making him a pretty solid counter to certain Elites like Jain Zar or Gabriel.
Most Eldar elites on the other hand don't need to juggle abilities to be useful, with the exception of Macha. Ronahn snipes things real good, Striking Scorpions just function as a super banshee squad, Kyre and Jain Zar are fairly intuitive to use effectively. Warp Spiders do a ton of DPS so you can completely ignore their teleport or slow mines and still do excellent with them. I'm not saying they don't need any micro or don't benefit from it, but many Ork elites are downright useless without proper ability usage.
Thunderhost
@Dullahan Thank you for that, very insightful.
Would you think that this micro-intensiveness on ork elitepart could be based on the fact that the faction, unitwise, is less intensive than eldar (if it is). I find that eldar need much more positioning, moving back and forth etc, than orks or sm. So what I'm saying is that the taxation on micro is levied onto the ork elites, whereas it's on the eldars basic units?
Dullahan
It varies really. With Orks you can get away with a lot of attack move with Waaagh bonus active, but there is a lot of potential for micro. (Every unit has an active ability to micro, sometimes 2-3 with doctrines.) Not to mention using War Trukks to launch units into position or using gretchins to constantly produce new units from medium/large scrap piles.
I'd say Orks have the highest ceiling for raw APM micro and macro, but Eldar have a lot of really cool micro opportunities. (Like Webway gate networks to transport armies bouncing around the map.) Plus Eldar units tend to be a bit more fragile overall.
Dullahan
Assault Termies are melee champions. They're meant to counter elites and walkers like Dreadnoughts/Deff Dreads. They shred Nobs and Wraithblades apart too.
Also their Dreadnought ability is extremely good. Especially weith Invigorating Slam. Gives Dreadnoughts a ton more mobility.
Achernar
Taldeer is pretty mediocre though. She's a melee elite that takes 2.5x damage from back attacks and has less HP than Solaria, a ranged superheavy elite. She can jump, but unlike ranged variant she needs to cross a lot of distance twice, to engage the enemies and to run away. She can be kited. Her stasis, unlike Macha's doesn't last long. Eldritch curse is good only against high HP targets. Eldritch slash is easy to dodge due to long cast time. Her doctrines are pretty mediocre too. 50% damage resist on 40 power quick strike upgrade? ASM get 75% for free on their jump and leap moves.
Reposter
Ok, basically Eldar Heroes are more Micro intensive and rewarding than SM equivalents? I have not played Orks much, so not too sure what is a good combination and what top tier play is like...?