Postmortem documentation for Dawn of War 3

VanceStubbs_86

What is a postmortem documentation?

A project post-mortem is a process, usually performed at the conclusion of a project, to determine and analyze elements of the project that were successful or unsuccessful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmortem_documentation

@r_benb said:

@Iatros said:
So the only question that matters is what Relic has learned?

I posted a similar response somewhere in here but to save you the search, our main focus has been making more room for user research, early play-testing, and community consultation in how we make games.

In my opinion, a very good decision. We as players should share our insights for future developments, especially a potential DoW successor. In Q&A, some players have already submitted a lot of feedback. Unfortunately, the posts are quickly overread, in the very emotional discussion. Therefore, trying to bundle the results into a single thread.

Write in detail what you liked or did not like about DoW 3.

Draconix

Well, I don't have nothing against Dow3, but I think now that RTS/MOBA hybrid aproach wasn't a very good idea at all.

Still, while indeed it had a own flaws, it also had a pros I liked personally.

First and foremost, it has the least number of factions in the game, but it is recompesated with very good quality of gameplay and customisation, thanks Elites, Faction mechanics and Doctrines. If ever would be Dow4 then at least I would like it to have factions with such a great quality as we had in Dow3.

Second, it had bigger scale and base building. Personally I like have big armies and base building but I'm not sure if it will be in Dow4. But I would apprecciate that.

Overall, Dow1 and Dow2 mix isn't in my opinion a very bad idea, its just at it seems, it wasn't executed well in Dow3. So if Dow4 has to be maked, then I would like it to be also a Dow1 and 2 mix but maybe better as a proper RTS. Still I would like to have those mentioned things I liked from Dow3 again in Dow4, maybe even improved as well.

Diogen84

Dow2 is moba/rts, dow3 is rts with a kind of hq destroy rule.

TokyoDream

• Keep elites. They're fun to play with and were a success. Maybe change the way you pay for them but don't get rid of them just for the sake of change.
• Keep base building and big armies.
• Launch with 4 races. It's what's expected of DOW.
• At least unlock camera for replays and observer mode. This way performance in gameplay won't be affected.
• Launch with observer mode.
• Keep hotkey and ability system. 3 abilities max for each unit bound to the Q W E keys is an unqualified success.
• Stop relying on timed/scripted events in the campaign. A little goes a long way.
• Bring back some traditional RTS missions. Just let us build an army and conquer a large map sometimes.
• If you want the player to control more than 1 race, we need a campaign for each race.
• Have multiple MP modes at launch.
• Bring back TLS. It was very popular. People like popular things. That's how you sell games.
• Build an active MP community. Events, tournaments, rewards, etc. Engage with the players and make MP a happening place.
• Weave the campaign story into the events of 8th edition. This could be a major selling point if done well.
• That's all I can think of.

RaspberryTurtle

I'll start with I think the DoW 3 got wrong;
-No Synch-Kills. Literally what the Franchise was known for and what brought the game to life.

-Pointless Fractionalizing of Doctrines. Why do I have to pick between Dire Avengers Holofield, Improved Grenades, or Improved Shields? This just leads to doctrines that never get used because they are far too niche to use. Instead these should all be lumped into one broader "Improved Dire Avengers" doctrine, some of them become baseline abilities while others become new research upgrades. Love doctrines as a means of customizing playstyle and composition, but its pretty restrictive with some units having more than 3 doctrines (Vypers).

-Obnoxious Abilities. I expect Titans or even certain Elites to wipe armies, okay fine, but ++heresy redacted++ like Deathstorms? this basically locks me to take only certain elites because they are the only ones who have abilities to mitigate obnoxious abilities.

-Stale Campaign. DoW 2 had a really fun campaign, getting loot and travelling planet to planet, recieving system alerts.

What DoW 3 got right;
-The large scale, big armies.
-Titans!
-Elite System.
-Doctrines as Army Customization.
-Different material types in Army painter.

LuckyShitBird

@TokyoDream said:

• Keep elites. They're fun to play with and were a success. Maybe change the way you pay for them but don't get rid of them just for the sake of change.
• Keep base building and big armies.
• Launch with 4 races. It's what's expected of DOW.
• At least unlock camera for replays and observer mode. This way performance in gameplay won't be affected.
• Launch with observer mode.
• Keep hotkey and ability system. 3 abilities max for each unit bound to the Q W E keys is an unqualified success.
• Stop relying on timed/scripted events in the campaign. A little goes a long way.
• Bring back some traditional RTS missions. Just let us build an army and conquer a large map sometimes.
• If you want the player to control more than 1 race, we need a campaign for each race.
• Have multiple MP modes at launch.
• Bring back TLS. It was very popular. People like popular things. That's how you sell games.
• Build an active MP community. Events, tournaments, rewards, etc. Engage with the players and make MP a happening place.
• Weave the campaign story into the events of 8th edition. This could be a major selling point if done well.
• That's all I can think of.

I agree with you and would add the faction mechanics (e.g. Drop-Pods) in addition to your list. I wonder what Necrons / Chaos and so on would have gotten, if they had made it into the game.

Arbit

I'll just hit the highest and lowest point here

• I liked the streamlined basebuilding - DoW 1 for example had too many filler buildings that literally just made one unit and/or had an upgrade or two on it. Every building had a purpose in DoW 3 and I also liked how important forward bases were.
• Hands down my favorite thing about DoW 3 was how each race had a handful of truly unique mechanics that came into play within minutes of starting a game. The SM banner and drop pods, ork waagh and scrap, eldar shields/FoF/building teleporting were all great (the eldar ones less interesting than the others IMO, but still).
• Abstracting out all the squadleaders and most of the wargear upgrades was a huge mistake. Not only is wargear an important part of the game universe and lore, it also hits that RPG-like feeling of customization and personalization that has been a hallmark of the DoW series.
• Hands down my LEAST favorite thing was the elite point system. Super units are cool, but they feel less cool when they are given to you for free and you know your opponent is getting them too. The elite point "economy", such as it is, can't even be influenced that much beyond the (expensive, usually very vulnerable) elite point generator and destroying objectives. The fact that these super units were capable of teleporting in and annihilating your line units that you had invested a lot of time into purchasing, upgrading, and producing was just an unfun mechanic, IMO.

GiggleHz

If relic would listen...

Go back to a more gritty art style for DOW..
get rid of all the arcadey elements...SHIELD BUBBLES...GOTTA GO, bring back a cover system....get rid of invisible grass areas are you kidding....Bring in terrain buffs or debuffs...remember in dow 1 if you were in water you were at a disadvantage...So you know....elevation should matter, water....stuff like that. A weather system would be cool...rain, snow....radiation storms stuff like that....maybe random chaos events...or raiders...

Actual real, base building.....with actual bases with actual defensive structures...

I hated the campaign of DOW3 .... I hated being forced to play as all the races...i preferred the dark crusade style...it helped replayability...

I thought the space marines were treated too much like throw away fodder.....

GiggleHz

OH ALMOST FORGOT...

SYYYYYYNNNNNCCCCC KIIIIILLLLLLSSSS

Andtaxes

I think it was the use of the 40k IP that really held them back here.

They did a wonderful job bringing the 40k stuff to the table; the orks for example are just extremely well done. The 40k IP does not lend its self to the style they were after, it felt very much like they grafted some very good artwork over top of a port of another game. The scale was close enough that you can see each individual squad and manage them but none of them have anything like a personality.

I do appreciate that a AAA studio did really want to try something new and wild. The fact that it was 40k was an arrow to the knee right off the bat.

Amoc

What went wrong was the MOBA/RTS mash-up. That was the story when the game released and I'll guarantee that's what people are going to remember about the game. 5 years from now people aren't going to be saying, "DoW III failed because it didn't have enough races and it was missing game modes". It's easy for folks to convince themselves of that here now that 99% of the critics don't even think about DoW III anymore (and certainly don't come to the forums) but if you go back to April/May 2017, these forums were full of heated arguments about DoW III's MOBA influences.

Elites were a cool idea in principle but they had way too much influence over the game. WC3 did this successfully a long time ago, but Blizzard understood that smaller armies and slower pacing were needed to make it work. With the bigger armies and the ridiculously low TTK for line units, DoW III seemed to have missed the point. Obviously some people liked it, but most people definitely didn't.

Socite

Good:

• Factions were done really well.
• Doctrines are nice but could be better. I agree with the previous point of combining some into one e.g. having an Improved dire avengers.
• Elites.
• Power Core has issues but I like it more than I thought I would.

Bad:

• Economy. I prefer a DoW1 style economy where listening posts increased requisition from points and could be upgraded both as a whole and idividualy.
• Base building. I would've liked there to be, similar to dow1, base turrets and generators which you had a set amount of per HQ. Not only does this add more to base building and defence but it also gives purpose to having additional HQs, which there was really no use for in DoW3 making it kind of a waste of resources.
• Elite points system. It could do with a rework, either making use of power/req or making it so that elite points aren't just generated over time at a set rate. I'd also prefer them produced from structures rather than teleported in, which would also serve to add more importance to base building and teirs.
• Sync kills. I know the aim was to make it more competitive, but it could be a setting for custom games similar to how they added toggling for elites, doctrines and global abilities.
• Campaign. I didn't necessarily dislike the campaign, however I think a DC style one or at least one where you can choose your faction works better, allowing you to focus more on that race. It would also help with the map issue, since like with DC and SS the maps could double as multiplayer maps satisfying the demand for maps.
• Number of factions. I know its a common complaint but I think at least one more would've helped a lot, because even if the factions are better done the number of them deterred a lot of people.
• Map design and lack of team customisation. I quite like the maps in DoW3, but sometimes they feel too small or not open enough. Further, if the maps were more open and had more potential base locations bases could be spread out allowing for different team setups like FFA, 2v2v2 or even 1v1/2v2 with the maps being less streamlined allowing for more spreading out. I also wish there were more environments, such as forests/jungles, cities and deserts.
• Sense of progression. There's not really much to make you feel like you're progressing, particularly once your elites get to higher levels. I would've been interested in something similar to how DoW2 has leveling for the faction, which gradually unlocked visual differences for your army, making it so that the more you played the better your army looked. Its a small yet enjoyable aspect that really made it feel like you were getting somewhere, and it allows you to add rewards without really impacting gameplay.
• Cover. It works, but a lot of people hated it. Terrain buffs/debuffs from DoW1 worked quite well.
• Animations. A few caused issue with a lot of people (including me when in first saw them) such as the infamous Gabriel flip, termites doing the spin-up-and-smash, the hopping on some abilities and special attacks etc. In my opinion some of these could have done with reworking, like with Gabriel even if you need to keep in the jump remove theflip and make it look heroic and somewhat heavy, or if possible replace it with a teleport. I also feel some animations were a bit empty, like Gabriel (sorry to pick on you) with his regular attacks feels too light, he used to have to swing it with two hands and the animation gave you a sense of just how heavy it was, but now he's holding it with one hand, near the top, and swinging it as if its really light.
• Perhaps warhead could've been included.

I know I wrote a lot more for bad, but I do love DoW3, its just I have a hard time pinpointing what exactly I enjoy about it. I've also spent a lot of time considering what would've made it better and have quite a few ideas.

Decepticats

Basically what went wrong in my view is they did not take control of the message. Once the rage bois got going on Reddit, Twitch, etc. it was time to have a PR, CR, blitz to out message the negative nellies. For a good example on how this was done: Check out how Creative Assembly managed to recapture the narrative for Total War: Warhammer 1 when pre-launch and immediately post-launch there was non-stop negativity about how this wasn't a real total war game, how the rosters were missing key units, etc.. Very similar to what DoW3 faced. And it got even worse when the Beastman DLC came out.

But CA didn't give up, they kept driving a positivity wedge into the negativity blockade and eventually it split. And now most of what is in the total war subreddit and other social media is positive. Negativity still exists, but the game, its sequel, and all of the DLC has sold quite well.

The problem here isn't with DoW3 itself. The game has minor issues, yes. But overall it's a very good game. The problem is that Relic did not control the narrative. They got caught up in the narrative being driven by the naysayers and panicked (totally understandable, I might have done the same in their shoes). They must have had whiplash going from such positive critical acclaim to the negative propaganda storm of a relative few people on Reddit and the forums. I feel for them.

Hopefully they have learned that they need someone on reddit, on twitter, on facebook, and on these forums at all times. It needs to be one person's full-time job to manage that messaging. And not just to push their own message (although that is important) but also to demonstrate in all of those venues (not just this one where @Kat_RE was actually posting) that they hear it, they are listening, and they are working on things.

Everything else being exactly the same, if this one element were changed (if it were even changed now) the game's following would be much stronger. Not saying it would have millions of players, no purely multiplayer game without the backing of one of the major personality twitch streamers can anymore. But it could easily have a few thousand and justify continued development of factions, expansions, etc..

MrJade

The game didn't fail because of negativity. Dawn of War III scored 10% lower on Metacritic critical scores than Total War: Warhammer. Dawn of War III failed because it alienated its core audiences and didn't have one to pivot to.

Socite

To add a correction to my comment (darn autocorrect) perhaps wargear* could have been included.

TokyoDream

@Socite said:
To add a correction to my comment (darn autocorrect) perhaps wargear* could have been included.

Yeah, I've been playing Retribution recently and the lack of customization in the DOW3 campaign feels like such a step backwards. Customization via wargear isn't just a fun mechanic, it ties directly into the 40K rules. Bringing 40K to life should be what DOW is all about.

Ifitmovesnukeit

Well, I imagine the intention was for you to customise your approach via doctrines and Elite selections. Granted the latter kind of falls a bit flat when your choices are as heavily restricted as they are in DoW3's campaign.

The_Great_ASD

WAAAGH!!! tower.
Ork's loot system.
Music.
In my opinion these things are the only which should stay.
Loot system is that thing which is really innovative, not those mechanics from SC 2 like shields on protos- am... el... elda... No, there were no eldars, there were protosses.
Music is nice, not perfect, but I enjoyed it; it eas the first time I liked even eld... protoss' theme.
WAAAAGH!!! tower is cool. Da orkiest thing I ever seen. It was in previous parts, but here is the best realisation.

Bring back sounds. Sounds in DoW III are ++heresy redacted++. Like those guys went not to fight till someone will die, but like they went to play some paintball matches. In DoW II sounds are nice. Weapons should sound threatening.

Army painter. It's ++heresy redacted++ important; you maybe won't understand it at first sight, but if you think a bit - you will understand. Space Marine has one of the best army painter; develop its ideas. Also give us more opportunities in choice of colours, like it was DoW I - there are presets of Citadel colours and RGB pallette. Or actually make it as in old arcade racing with tuning - make RGB pallette and choice of finishes. In that case Citadel colours will be as references.
Also about customisation - SM still rocks. Develop it. Add more bits, more parts, more variants and ncorporate all this with army level system from DoW II. Higher army rank - more possibilites for customisation, NOT COLOURS, IT WAS THE MOST, THE MOST STUPID IDEA WHICH COULD, WHICH CAN AND WHICH WILL BE ABLE TO EXIST - TO LOCK ++heresy redacted++ COLOURS BEHIND LEVEL (as Les Grossman said "Hit that guy, who locked colours behind army level in the face, really ++heresy redacted++ hard!").
Summing all this... Give. Us. More. Customisation. Customisation to the God of customisation!

Doctrines... They are... Okay. Tolerable. But they are at wrong place. Some of them which relatively simple surely should be as researchs, other which are more specific could act as special rules for chapters/clans/craftworlds, which also could be used in creating your own chapter/clan/craftworld (customisaaaaation...).

Wargear. In expansions you made your first steps on route of adding wargear in game, in DoW II you developed this idea.
And here you dropped it... Nice desicion, players loved it, but we will throw it away. Can't say concretely, how to realuse it, but have some ideas.

Elites... As doctrines - okay, but needs to be reworked, and here needs to be reworked deeply.

Units. You added big bots... And nothing chamged, because you threw away relic units as Land Rainder of SM, Squiggoth/Battlewagon of orks... How it was supposed IG to be added? Without their symbolical Baneblade?
As you could understand - also should be reworked.

Buldings... Well, schemes for every race of DoW I is nice, why should invent bycicle again... Just why.

Hmmmm... What else I forgot...

ParanoidKami

@Diogen84 said:
Dow2 is moba/rts, dow3 is rts with a kind of hq destroy rule.

DoW 2 is more of a hybrid between RTS and RPG's than MOBA's. MOBA's came from the same roots but are a different thing.

Anyways, what I liked about the game:

• Low APM to get in yet a high skill ceiling
• Doctrine system allows you to play what you want as opposed to sticking with the counter system
• Bigger armies
• More epic units
• You can view the Codex in the game
• Steam Workshop and the mods that were made from it
• Graphics
• No sync kills

What I didn't like:

• Art style. Should be less shiny and more realistic
• No leveling system
• Not enough on the field upgrades per squad. Like Plasma guns
• Elites being too strong compared to regular units
• Not enough reactionary attacks and too much prediction
• Campaign was bad in comparison to DoW 2. Make a more expanded DoW 2 campaign from Retribution
• Gameplay was too spammy with abilities
• Needed more races
• Needs more combo attacks like in DoW 2. It was epic and skillful. People loved it
• No Jedi Warlock from DoW 2 with epic voice lines

The_Great_ASD

@ParanoidKami said:
Anyways, what I liked about the game:

• No sync kills

Ammm... And how you gonna show that this not generic RTS, but WH 40k RTS? How you gonna show that this is RTS based brutal setting, where everybody hates everyone? It's not enough to just show a lot of blood.
This game needs sync kills. It's just should be reworked, so it won't mess you to finish off squad; should be incorporated organically.

ParanoidKami

@The_Great_ASD said:

@ParanoidKami said:
Anyways, what I liked about the game:

• No sync kills

Ammm... And how you gonna show that this not generic RTS, but WH 40k RTS? How you gonna show that this is RTS based brutal setting, where everybody hates everyone? It's not enough to just show a lot of blood.
This game needs sync kills. It's just should be reworked, so it won't mess you to finish off squad; should be incorporated organically.

Sync kills ruin gameplay and no one who actually plays the game even pays attention to them. They're just a constant annoyance. Death animations that only affect the dead unit are much better.

Forgot to add in my last post that they should add in TLS(The Last Stand). Having a casual game mode for people who want to take a break from the regular multiplayer is nice.

Diogen84

I personally liked the animations from dow1. When the animation is shown the squad procceed to deal damage.

Cro2fear

@Diogen84 said:
Dow2 is moba/rts, dow3 is rts with a kind of hq destroy rule.

Dow 2 is not a rts its a rtt

AlternativeIV

It would have been nice for Relic to realize that what made people love Dawn of War wasnt ESPORTSTSS or balance or "streamlined" in the sense of visual clarity. Dawn of War was successful because it was a cinematic experience of wackiest, darkest, gritty fantastical conflicts in sciencefiction/fantasy. They seem to think that trying to make it this bland competitive rts like it was going to revive the competitive rts genre, for example it might not be completely comparable but Space Marine didnt try to create this ultra balanced CoD/CSGO tier autitstically balanced fps but it made it "FUN" in both single and multiplayer with the cinematic nature of the combat and the massive 40k over the top scenarios but they were within the logical consistency feel to everything of the 40k universe as we knew it. Removing sync kills and bastardizing the cover system removed alot of that nuanced combat along with the ++heresy redacted++ elite system when you should be able to call down any "Elite" you want in a single game with only research and resources as a restriction. Things like rng and friendly fire also fucked alot of the cool things that made Dawn of War 1/2 interesting and dynamic and cinematic when played. Examples being having 3 basilisk with Earthshaker rounds firing on an enemy being tied up with guardsmen in close combat, you would lose all the guardsmen in a massive ++heresy redacted++ gory explosion but ++heresy redacted++ that trade off could be so ++heresy redacted++ cool if you get a more expensive trade. Now you fire artillery on friendly positions and there is no ++heresy redacted++ risk/reward rofl. Nothing else really comes to mind other than Relics subjectively stupid design decisions for Gabriel with muh back flips because of my shard of wailing autism and the rng factor behind sync kills when they would have done so much for the game and other games are able to competitively do rng like Dota. Relic just seemed to make all the mistakes that other major rts developers did and Relic seemed just to not want to learn from them. I linked this article are I think 8 months back and ill link it again but I guess all rts are doomed to this fate now kek.
https://blog.destiny.gg/starcraft-2-legacy-into-the-void/

ParanoidKami

@Cro2fear said:

@Diogen84 said:
Dow2 is moba/rts, dow3 is rts with a kind of hq destroy rule.

Dow 2 is not a rts its a rtt

No, it's not. RTT doesn't have an enonomy with units being produced.

The_Great_ASD

@ParanoidKami said:
Sync kills ruin gameplay and no one who actually plays the game even pays attention to them. They're just a constant annoyance. Death animations that only affect the dead unit are much better.
Forgot to add in my last post that they should add in TLS(The Last Stand). Having a casual game mode for people who want to take a break from the regular multiplayer is nice.

I payed attention; and let's get it clear - not only me payed, either way there would be not so much people who complained about it.
And, yeah... Ammm... Did you read only half?

@The_Great_ASD said:
This game needs sync kills. It's just should be reworked, so it won't mess you to finish off squad; should be incorporated organically.

ParanoidKami

@The_Great_ASD said:

@ParanoidKami said:
Sync kills ruin gameplay and no one who actually plays the game even pays attention to them. They're just a constant annoyance. Death animations that only affect the dead unit are much better.
Forgot to add in my last post that they should add in TLS(The Last Stand). Having a casual game mode for people who want to take a break from the regular multiplayer is nice.

I payed attention; and let's get it clear - not only me payed, either way there would be not so much people who complained about it.
And, yeah... Ammm... Did you read only half?

@The_Great_ASD said:
This game needs sync kills. It's just should be reworked, so it won't mess you to finish off squad; should be incorporated organically.

There were a lot of people who complained about sync kills being in the game as well. In Elite mod they tried to get rid of sync kills but could only get it so it would trigger on killing the last member of the squad. In retail it was everywhere. In DoW 2 it was also only in multiplayer and not single when it should have only been in single player, not multi. It was weird.

I didn't know what you meant by organically.

Amoc

Sync kills didn't ruin anything. None of the DoW games were particularly huge multiplayer successes, and had pitifully small competitive scenes. While sync kills certainly added a level of unnecessary RNG, they were visually appealing. Perhaps they could have been disabled for MP, but they another level of fun on a game franchise where "fun" rather than "competitive" was always the primary value proposition.

Gorb

Going to step in here and insist that people stick to the OP's topic. Sync kills are a topic that have been done to death, and most people know each others' opinions on it. As we've seen in the past, it tends to take over topics. Let's not repeat that here.

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