What Warhammer 40k and Dawn of War needed...

gholin

Relic could take a page from Creative Assembly in one area and bring back Dawn of War with a vengeance: Giving love to faction diversity.
Could you imagine a dawn of war or warhammer 40k game that wasn't just about space marines, orks, and eldar (And sometime chaos and imperial guard)? I'm frankly sick of playing just the base factions.

Warhammer 40k has never had a single game that represented the amazing diversity of space marine chapters, xenos, and imperial orders. If you look at the models up at games workshop, the races have been upgraded and even the dark eldar now include their own non-elf alien troops to round out their ranks.

I want a game that treats 40k like Total War Warhammer treats fantasy. A Dawn of War game that remembers what makes dawn of war fun to play, and adds the flavor of the various factions vying for the galaxy. Dawn of War 1 was the closest to this ideal, and that's one reason why it's so popular.

Hopefully Relic returns to Dawn of War, and realizes there is so much richness in the universe. I long for a game where I can pit space wolves against tyranids, Orks against Adeptus Mechanicus, Thousand Sons against Tau. Where we have pretty full rosters of units to play with and a sector of space to invade. So many games have gotten the idea right on how to do this (Empire at War, Total War, even Dawn of War). I really hope we get a game that does 40k factions justice all in one place. I know they can't include everything, but Total War showed us we can get a lot of the beautiful diversity in there.

What do you guys think.

CANNED_F3TUS

RTS games have certain rules and a formula to go by in order to be good RTS games.

And you will notice that most rts games dont have endless rosters of units and variation there of. Especially with RTS games that are focused on PVP

The main reason why devs do this is to make balancing their games easier and it reduces the chance of having units that are irrelevant and useless and never will be picked and become useless clutter.

Just look at all the ++heresy redacted++ in UA mod. So many units so many options. Yet most of these options are absolutly pointless to pick in a competetive game. You are going to pick the best of the best when playing multiplayer its just the nature of the game. So why waste time making several units that do exactly the same thing. This is not some Role playing fantasy strategy game where you try to make your home brew or lore accurate armies to nerd out over.

Total war WH is designed differently and it doesnt follow the same concept that DoW and other RTS games have. Its more focused on a great single player experience where you have freedom to do whatever you want and overlapping unit roles dont matter. It is just that a RPG grand strategy game where you have endless freedoms and game balance and design takes the back seat. But if you look at the PVP side of TW WH you will see that alot of people will not bother picking the weaker options. Why screw around with norscan marauders when you can just pick Chaos warriors or a unit that can do it all better than marauders in PVP.

CANNED_F3TUS

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/174543/useless-units-lets-list-them

Here is and example of players discussing useless units in TW WH. DoW 3 does not have this problem because every unit has a role and a purpose.

Dullahan

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
RTS games have certain rules and a formula to go by in order to be good RTS games.

And you will notice that most rts games dont have endless rosters of units and variation there of. Especially with RTS games that are focused on PVP

The main reason why devs do this is to make balancing their games easier and it reduces the chance of having units that are irrelevant and useless and never will be picked and become useless clutter.

Just look at all the ++heresy redacted++ in UA mod. So many units so many options. Yet most of these options are absolutly pointless to pick in a competetive game. You are going to pick the best of the best when playing multiplayer its just the nature of the game. So why waste time making several units that do exactly the same thing. This is not some Role playing fantasy strategy game where you try to make your home brew or lore accurate armies to nerd out over.

Total war WH is designed differently and it doesnt follow the same concept that DoW and other RTS games have. Its more focused on a great single player experience where you have freedom to do whatever you want and overlapping unit roles dont matter. It is just that a RPG grand strategy game where you have endless freedoms and game balance and design takes the back seat. But if you look at the PVP side of TW WH you will see that alot of people will not bother picking the weaker options. Why screw around with norscan marauders when you can just pick Chaos warriors or a unit that can do it all better than marauders in PVP.

I've seen mods make this mistake dozens and dozens of times.

Even Elite mod for DoW2 does this by adding redundant units like Chaos Raptors, Karskins or Flash Gitz. The roles of the new units overlap too much with the previous ones which ends up making the game messy and disorganized.

The only way to really do this properly is a Coh2 style commander system wherein you can only use certain units if you commit to a specific doctrine, but even then if the doctrinal version isn't superior it is hard to justify.

Gorb

It's something we struggled a lot with in FoK as well; some redundant stuff probably ended up in there but we did a couple of design and balance passes to make sure we weren't just adding content for content's sake.

TooMuchHair

@Dullahan said:

@CANNED_F3TUS said:
RTS games have certain rules and a formula to go by in order to be good RTS games.

And you will notice that most rts games dont have endless rosters of units and variation there of. Especially with RTS games that are focused on PVP

The main reason why devs do this is to make balancing their games easier and it reduces the chance of having units that are irrelevant and useless and never will be picked and become useless clutter.

Just look at all the ++heresy redacted++ in UA mod. So many units so many options. Yet most of these options are absolutly pointless to pick in a competetive game. You are going to pick the best of the best when playing multiplayer its just the nature of the game. So why waste time making several units that do exactly the same thing. This is not some Role playing fantasy strategy game where you try to make your home brew or lore accurate armies to nerd out over.

Total war WH is designed differently and it doesnt follow the same concept that DoW and other RTS games have. Its more focused on a great single player experience where you have freedom to do whatever you want and overlapping unit roles dont matter. It is just that a RPG grand strategy game where you have endless freedoms and game balance and design takes the back seat. But if you look at the PVP side of TW WH you will see that alot of people will not bother picking the weaker options. Why screw around with norscan marauders when you can just pick Chaos warriors or a unit that can do it all better than marauders in PVP.

I've seen mods make this mistake dozens and dozens of times.

Even Elite mod for DoW2 does this by adding redundant units like Chaos Raptors, Karskins or Flash Gitz. The roles of the new units overlap too much with the previous ones which ends up making the game messy and disorganized.

The only way to really do this properly is a Coh2 style commander system wherein you can only use certain units if you commit to a specific doctrine, but even then if the doctrinal version isn't superior it is hard to justify.

I really like that Coh2 commander system idea. It would be awesome in dow

Dandalus

So make every Legion a separate faction? Good idea but I think some legions' traits making them a commander like CoH2 does is more possible.

ReubenUK

How about a commander system that doesn't remove essential faction units and abilities from the default roster but compliments it instead with Chapter/Craftworld/Warband specific units (which would be weaker than heroes but stronger than line units) and abilities.

This hypothetical commander system would also not be cluttered with useless abilities and plagued by a pay2win model (balance is key).

NeuSheo

WE NEED more races, Like NECRONS, we need Necrons and a NEW campain
Many Miniatures a already finished in game like Chaos,