@jackattack large quantities of people agreeing something is so doesn't make it so. Nor is it a great way to justify the quality or accuracy of an opinion. Yes, a lot of people don't like DoW3. But a lot of people also bought N'Sync's albums and a lot of people currently watch the Kardashians on TV every week. Meanwhile, most people did not like Firefly and it was taken off TV.
The enjoyment of entertainment is not only subjective, but the opinions of humans can be influenced greatly by outside forces. For example: Youtube videos and reddit posts ranting about how a game BETRAYS the series might have a hugely negative impact on sales and the ability for people to objectively evaluate the game itself. I myself had trouble seeing past all those "influencers" (which is what they are called in Marketing terms btw. because they INFLUENCE opinion).
If DoW3 had been given a fair shake it'd be far more popular than it is without any substantial changes to game design.
As for DoW1 still "going strong." No it isn't. And the fact that people play it now doesn't mean they aren't still influenced by nostalgia. When I pick up a controller and start playing Zelda: A Link to the Past, seeing and hearing the game again reminds me of the time I first played it and first experienced it. That was a time when I was much much younger and my life was much much simpler. I was able to enjoy the game so much more because of that and even just REMEMBERING those times even subconsciously gives me an endorphin release that improves my current experience of the game too.
The same thing is true of people's experiences with DoW1 and DoW2. DoW1 was a great game for it's time, as was DoW2. But DoW3 is a very good game too. It's just not the same game you remember so you have to learn a new thing. And that part is hard for people especially in a series with such a fractured community opinion on what makes a game a "Dawn of war" game.
@Decepticats said:
What people didn't like about DoW3 is that it is hard to learn and get good at and Relic was slow to communicate and deploy balance patches for big issues early on.
EDIT: People just told themselves they were mad it wasn't like DoW1 or DoW2 or "not a real DoW game" to sooth their fragile egos. Reality is, it's an awesome game that has everything that made those games fun and more. One of the frequent complaints is "the factions are all the same" but the 3 factions in DoW3 are more different than any of the factions from each other in any of the previous games. Just demonstrates detractors weren't really being fair.
I have to respectfully disagree with all that.
But anyway, I assume you're fine with a revamp?
Do you think the majority of DoW 3 players would've been fine with a revamp?
It obviously depends on how it was revamped.
Considering I have yet to see anyone indicate how they would "revamp" DoW3 other than saying simplistic crap like "Make it more like DoW1" I really doubt it would make a difference.
>
So if its made more like DoW 1 anyway, would you continue to play it?
@Decepticats said: @jackattack large quantities of people agreeing something is so doesn't make it so. Nor is it a great way to justify the quality or accuracy of an opinion. Yes, a lot of people don't like DoW3. But a lot of people also bought N'Sync's albums and a lot of people currently watch the Kardashians on TV every week. Meanwhile, most people did not like Firefly and it was taken off TV.
The enjoyment of entertainment is not only subjective, but the opinions of humans can be influenced greatly by outside forces. For example: Youtube videos and reddit posts ranting about how a game BETRAYS the series might have a hugely negative impact on sales and the ability for people to objectively evaluate the game itself. I myself had trouble seeing past all those "influencers" (which is what they are called in Marketing terms btw. because they INFLUENCE opinion).
If DoW3 had been given a fair shake it'd be far more popular than it is without any substantial changes to game design.
As for DoW1 still "going strong." No it isn't. And the fact that people play it now doesn't mean they aren't still influenced by nostalgia. When I pick up a controller and start playing Zelda: A Link to the Past, seeing and hearing the game again reminds me of the time I first played it and first experienced it. That was a time when I was much much younger and my life was much much simpler. I was able to enjoy the game so much more because of that and even just REMEMBERING those times even subconsciously gives me an endorphin release that improves my current experience of the game too.
The same thing is true of people's experiences with DoW1 and DoW2. DoW1 was a great game for it's time, as was DoW2. But DoW3 is a very good game too. It's just not the same game you remember so you have to learn a new thing. And that part is hard for people especially in a series with such a fractured community opinion on what makes a game a "Dawn of war" game.
Have disagreed on this before, and will do so again. If you say that people didn't buy the game because of rants, I might even accept that. But people who bought the game are not playing it, which is the part that shows that people are, for whatever reason, not enjoying it. If a majority don't enjoy it, then subjectively, it might be good, even objectively, it might be a good game, but it isn't a successful game.
@Parkerz
There isn't enough repetitive content to play the game for an extended amount of time (playing it as part of a game roster for more than a year).
@Decepticats said: @jackattack large quantities of people agreeing something is so doesn't make it so. Nor is it a great way to justify the quality or accuracy of an opinion. Yes, a lot of people don't like DoW3. But a lot of people also bought N'Sync's albums and a lot of people currently watch the Kardashians on TV every week. Meanwhile, most people did not like Firefly and it was taken off TV.
Doesn't make what so? I only said that one group of the masses is largely the same as another group. Nothing particularly distinguishing.
the opinions of humans can be influenced greatly by outside forces. For example: Youtube videos and reddit posts ranting about how a game BETRAYS the series might have a hugely negative impact on sales and the ability for people to objectively evaluate the game itself. I myself had trouble seeing past all those "influencers"
Yes. But was there some concerted political party-style propaganda effort to diss DoW 3? I think not. Unless you wanna believe that Sega's competitors purposely did so in a conspiracy.
There were influencers on the opposite side too. From personal experience, myself and my clique of DoW-loving friends all came to the same conclusion and none of us had been influenced by any influencer. We came to it before the barrage of critical posts.
The point is that the decision makers have the biggest role to blame.
As for DoW1 still "going strong." No it isn't. And the fact that people play it now doesn't mean they aren't still influenced by nostalgia. When I pick up a controller and start playing Zelda: A Link to the Past, seeing and hearing the game again reminds me of the time I first played it and first experienced it. That was a time when I was much much younger and my life was much much simpler. I was able to enjoy the game so much more because of that and even just REMEMBERING those times even subconsciously gives me an endorphin release that improves my current experience of the game too.
What I'm saying is that its not just nostalgia from the distant past in their heads, because they are actively comparing the games.
I can tell you that I TRIED to like DoW 3. I really did. And my experience is that the game was confused about its identity, I failed to see how it was good, and it really didn't offer longtime fans much, especially based on their prior experiences. Echoed by my clique too.
What more are you gonna say to someone who really tried?
How much DoW 1 have you played? You can really feel the difference.
And what's the "and more" part of DoW 3?
Bottom line is the devs pushed out a game they knew would repulse the longtime fanbase and they managed to make some money of people which became these peoples' sunk cost.
They should've stayed true and continued just like Creative Assembly did. Sega let CA do its thing and asked Relic to branch out but Relic failed. That's a lesson to learn from Total War.
@Parkerz said:
Have disagreed on this before, and will do so again. If you say that people didn't buy the game because of rants, I might even accept that. But people who bought the game are not playing it, which is the part that shows that people are, for whatever reason, not enjoying it. If a majority don't enjoy it, then subjectively, it might be good, even objectively, it might be a good game, but it isn't a successful game.
People aren't playing it because Relic stopped supporting it. Without bug fixes or balance support or additional maps or official tournaments to look forward to, the playerbase doesn't feel engaged. Any game that people play constantly is supported by some sort of community if not the developer themselves. DoW3 had a hard time developing a community as even on the official forums there are anti-DoW3 trolls constantly trying to undermine any efforts. No game could endure that. The most fun game ever made would be in the exact same state DoW3 is in given what it's been put through in terms of influencers, agitators, and trolls without official developer support to push through the muck.
@Parkerz Unfortunately, Relic stopped supporting the game. So even those of us that love it don't have anything to look forward to in terms of bug fixes, balance changes, maps, or official tournaments.
But games can survive without official support if they have a community develop around them that supports itself. Again unfortunately, what DoW3 has had to endure with outside influencers, agitators, and downright trolls has created a toxic environment that actively undermines any attempt at rallying a community together. Even the /r/dawnofwariii subreddit, a subreddit founded on the idea that people who liked DoW3 needed somewhere to go where people who hate it wouldn't be is beset by anti-dow3 trolls. There's no where to go to just rally around LIKING the game because the people who hate it have so much fun tracking positive posts about it down and attacking them.
There was no CONSPIRACY to destroy DoW3. But there doesn't have to be a de jure conspiracy to destroy something. Actually, internet opinion works in a de facto hivemind. I could spend about 30 pages explaining how that works but instead I'll just say this: When one influencer of a sufficient size within a specific niche decides to hate something, every smaller fish gloms onto that opinion to ride the wave of people watching that bigger influencer's video (and also probably because they look up to that person they adopt their opinion as a form of sub conscious herd behavior). This happens with everything, not just DoW3 and not just games. That's why the last couple of years have seen the meteoric rise and fall of some mediocre games from somewhat unknown publishers like PUBG, Rocketleague, and now Fortnite (Epic is well known publisher but the formula fits). It just takes one big influencer promoting the game and all the little fish fall in line. Suddenly the game rides a wave of success that lasts as long as it has big influencers behind it.
DoW3 could have easily been one of those games. IMO, it's a better game than all of those games. Unfortunately, folks like Total Biscuit didn't give it half a chance and hated it for not being Starcraft 2 or hated it for not being DoW1/2 or hated it just to hate it and the wave of hate began...
The only way out was through official support or a community free from trolls and haters. Neither was forthcoming.
@Decepticats said: @Parkerz Unfortunately, Relic stopped supporting the game. So even those of us that love it don't have anything to look forward to in terms of bug fixes, balance changes, maps, or official tournaments.
But games can survive without official support if they have a community develop around them that supports itself. Again unfortunately, what DoW3 has had to endure with outside influencers, agitators, and downright trolls has created a toxic environment that actively undermines any attempt at rallying a community together. Even the /r/dawnofwariii subreddit, a subreddit founded on the idea that people who liked DoW3 needed somewhere to go where people who hate it wouldn't be is beset by anti-dow3 trolls. There's no where to go to just rally around LIKING the game because the people who hate it have so much fun tracking positive posts about it down and attacking them.
There was no CONSPIRACY to destroy DoW3. But there doesn't have to be a de jure conspiracy to destroy something. Actually, internet opinion works in a de facto hivemind. I could spend about 30 pages explaining how that works but instead I'll just say this: When one influencer of a sufficient size within a specific niche decides to hate something, every smaller fish gloms onto that opinion to ride the wave of people watching that bigger influencer's video (and also probably because they look up to that person they adopt their opinion as a form of sub conscious herd behavior). This happens with everything, not just DoW3 and not just games. That's why the last couple of years have seen the meteoric rise and fall of some mediocre games from somewhat unknown publishers like PUBG, Rocketleague, and now Fortnite (Epic is well known publisher but the formula fits). It just takes one big influencer promoting the game and all the little fish fall in line. Suddenly the game rides a wave of success that lasts as long as it has big influencers behind it.
DoW3 could have easily been one of those games. IMO, it's a better game than all of those games. Unfortunately, folks like Total Biscuit didn't give it half a chance and hated it for not being Starcraft 2 or hated it for not being DoW1/2 or hated it just to hate it and the wave of hate began...
The only way out was through official support or a community free from trolls and haters. Neither was forthcoming.
Game over.
The DoW 3 dislike wasn't fad-like at all. There were consistent, solid reasonings behind it. A lesson from Total War to be learned.
@Jackattack I'd say not every game has to be for you. But just because a game isn't for you doesn't mean it's not for anyone. I also think your opinion may have already been colored by videos or experiences. Because when I play DoW3 I don't see a game struggling to find its identity. I see a game that has been refined with polished mechanics and ideas that are trying to bring the genre forward.
I've been playing RTS games since Warcraft 1. I have many hours played in Warcraft 2, 3, Starcraft 1 and 2, Total Annihilation, Total Annhilation: Kingdoms, Supcom, Supcom 2, SpellForce 1-2, and Dawn Of War 1, 2, and 3. I can tell you that even actively comparing two things you are not free from nostalgia. Nostalgia is always with you when you are looking at something you first experienced at a significantly younger stage of your life.
If you honestly compare DoW1 and DoW3 it's just night and day. DoW1 feels more confused about its identity to me than DoW3. It seems like it wanted to be like Starcraft and Warcraft 2 with open base building and annihilation as the main mode but then randomly there are these Relic points (he he named after the developer) that can win the game if the mode is set to allow it. But don't have to be. The maps are somewhat chaotic in their design without much thought to balancing resource locations or providing interesting attack paths. Units overlap their roles for every. single. faction. to the point that you can play a faction match after match after match without ever needing to engage with a lot of its roster. The hero units are powerful but not obvious in the UI so while some make their presence known with powerful abilities, others simply slip up and start pounding dudes without making it obvious to the player that this unit is special. They feel kind of shoe horned in tbh.
Look, DoW1 was a good game for its time. But game development has come a long way since then. The people who design and develop games know more about what makes a game fun and engaging than the people who were doing it in DoW1 days and furthermore, they have better tools to build them with.
That's why DoW3 is laser focused. Every unit has a role and while some units overlap, the way they solve problems provides them distinct places in their rosters. The elites likewise are multi layered and provide space for players to execute skill. The main game mode, Power Core is designed to give direction and form to the contest over territory while drawing players away from key contested resource points on most maps so that a defending player can sneak out for a back cap or harass. There are always multiple attack paths on the maps which are beautifully designed and immerse you in the universe.
And every faction is COMPLETELY different with unique mechanics that lend to the flavor of the units themselves.
Also, SEGA did make CA do something new with Total War: Warhammer. And that game would have gotten the same treatment as DoW3 if not for CA's adept social media team going out there and batting down all the negative nellies and taking the time to engage big name influencers to make sure the game was presented well.
@Decepticats said: @Jackattack I'd say not every game has to be for you. But just because a game isn't for you doesn't mean it's not for anyone. I also think your opinion may have already been colored by videos or experiences. Because when I play DoW3 I don't see a game struggling to find its identity. I see a game that has been refined with polished mechanics and ideas that are trying to bring the genre forward.
My friends too. If you see the polish, then perhaps you might be in the minority, for I think the large bulk of the longtime fanbase shares my views.
Nostalgia is always with you when you are looking at something you first experienced at a significantly younger stage of your life.
Perhaps, but I don't think that alone triggered the backlash.
If you honestly compare DoW1 and DoW3 it's just night and day.
I agree with that. haha.
DoW1 feels more confused about its identity to me than DoW3. It seems like it wanted to be like Starcraft and Warcraft 2 with open base building and annihilation as the main mode but then randomly there are these Relic points (he he named after the developer) that can win the game if the mode is set to allow it. But don't have to be. The maps are somewhat chaotic in their design without much thought to balancing resource locations or providing interesting attack paths. Units overlap their roles for every. single. faction. to the point that you can play a faction match after match after match without ever needing to engage with a lot of its roster. The hero units are powerful but not obvious in the UI so while some make their presence known with powerful abilities, others simply slip up and start pounding dudes without making it obvious to the player that this unit is special. They feel kind of shoe horned in tbh.
Look, DoW1 was a good game for its time. But game development has come a long way since then. The people who design and develop games know more about what makes a game fun and engaging than the people who were doing it in DoW1 days and furthermore, they have better tools to build them with.
That's why DoW3 is laser focused. Every unit has a role and while some units overlap, the way they solve problems provides them distinct places in their rosters. The elites likewise are multi layered and provide space for players to execute skill. The main game mode, Power Core is designed to give direction and form to the contest over territory while drawing players away from key contested resource points on most maps so that a defending player can sneak out for a back cap or harass. There are always multiple attack paths on the maps which are beautifully designed and immerse you in the universe.
And every faction is COMPLETELY different with unique mechanics that lend to the flavor of the units themselves.
Also, SEGA did make CA do something new with Total War: Warhammer. And that game would have gotten the same treatment as DoW3 if not for CA's adept social media team going out there and batting down all the negative nellies and taking the time to engage big name influencers to make sure the game was presented well.
The changes made with TW:W gameplay weren't as radical as that of DoW 3. Not close.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree alot with your comments regarding gameplay. Like, the main job of relic points is to be able to build powerful units. Not sure what you're trying to say about it. And powerful units are pretty obvious. In fact any player would've read up on the factions and learnt which units are powerful.
I've been playing RTS games since Warcraft 1. I have many hours played in Warcraft 2, 3, Starcraft 1 and 2, Total Annihilation, Total Annhilation: Kingdoms, Supcom, Supcom 2, SpellForce 1-2, and Dawn Of War 1, 2, and 3.
Based on what you've said and your criticism of DoW 1, I must be frank that I have doubt on your claims.
And if what you say is true, your point of view is really unique. Since you're a longtime RTS fan. Either you're lying to yourself, or... I'll be really perplexed as to what's going on in your mind. Perhaps you can shed more light on that. So that I'll understand and not doubt you.
@jackattack I don't give a flip if you doubt me. You're not in charge here man. And your attitude is pretty awful. You are talking to me and others on here like you are implicitly correct and treating us like we're here to serve your interest. I don't care what you and your friends and your invisible majority think. They don't matter. Their opinions put on a scale against mind don't tip it one inch. I've got facts and reasoning. You and they have "I just don't like it." Great, good for you. Why? Make an argument. Present a case. I'm done responding after this if you can't say something more than some accusatory, dismissive, horse manure.
As for this bit
The changes made with TW:W gameplay weren't as radical as that of DoW 3. Not close.
Are you kidding me? Did you play a Total War game before Total War: Warhammer? Here's a brief list of just SOME of what was changed for TW:W
Magic! Never had that before
A focus on units with special active abiltiies
NON HUMANS
NON HISTORICAL
Lords don't age and die or have kids
No city health
Taxes are a static on/off
MONSTROUS UNITS
FLYING UNITS
Crazy units of all kinds
Restricted settlements
FANTASY GRAPHICS (much more "Cartoony" than previous editions)
I could go on and on. And TW:W even had a huge scandal before release too by offering Warriors of Chaos day 1 DLC as a pre-order bonus. But they weathered it all, not because the game was better than DoW3 is relative to expectations, but because their PR team was better and they just kept pushing ahead with their plans for supporting the game while communicating what that plan was to their community.
@Decepticats said: And your attitude is pretty awful. You are talking to me and others on here like you are implicitly correct and treating us like we're here to serve your interest.
I've been pretty direct. But I haven't resorted to any insults. Just direct, that's all. You also talk to me like you know it all.
And now you're the one initiating the rudeness.
I don't care what you and your friends and your invisible majority think. They don't matter. Their opinions put on a scale against mind don't tip it one inch. I've got facts and reasoning. You and they have "I just don't like it." Great, good for you. Why? Make an argument. Present a case. I'm done responding after this if you can't say something more than some accusatory, dismissive, horse manure.
I've got facts and reasoning too. I didn't say I just don't like it. I said that I don't see the polish, I see a game that had a haphazard development.
Are you kidding me? Did you play a Total War game before Total War: Warhammer?
I could go on and on. And TW:W even had a huge scandal before release too by offering Warriors of Chaos day 1 DLC as a pre-order bonus. But they weathered it all, not because the game was better than DoW3 is relative to expectations, but because their PR team was better and they just kept pushing ahead with their plans for supporting the game while communicating what that plan was to their community.
A lot of fantasy elements, true, but the mainstay medieval warfare mechanics intact. Not like DoW 3 on launch.
Relic's PR was really awful, I gotta agree with you on that one.
I see players use a great deal of the roster for their games. And can you answer my question on relics and the hero units? thank you.
@Decepticats said:
What people didn't like about DoW3 is that it is hard to learn and get good at and Relic was slow to communicate and deploy balance patches for big issues early on.
EDIT: People just told themselves they were mad it wasn't like DoW1 or DoW2 or "not a real DoW game" to sooth their fragile egos. Reality is, it's an awesome game that has everything that made those games fun and more. One of the frequent complaints is "the factions are all the same" but the 3 factions in DoW3 are more different than any of the factions from each other in any of the previous games. Just demonstrates detractors weren't really being fair.
I have to respectfully disagree with all that.
But anyway, I assume you're fine with a revamp?
Do you think the majority of DoW 3 players would've been fine with a revamp?
It obviously depends on how it was revamped.
Considering I have yet to see anyone indicate how they would "revamp" DoW3 other than saying simplistic crap like "Make it more like DoW1" I really doubt it would make a difference.
>
So if its made more like DoW 1 anyway, would you continue to play it?
No probably not but it really depends on how it makes the transition. If the lethality is reduced to DoW1 levels hell no.
@jackattack I've seen those videos. They are opinion-based. No facts. Just people spouting their opinions which I disagree with and have reasons for disagreeing with. For one thing, everybody criticizes Gabriel's back flip. But he does not flip backwards. He flips forwards. Furthermore, Games Workshop approved EVERYTHING in DoW3. So Gabriel front flipping in special terminator armor? Canon!
The medieval warfare mechanics is the ONLY mainstay of Total war? That's like saying the only mainstay of a DoW game is 40K warfare mechanics... HMMMMMMmmm seems like a double standard is being applied.
You CAN use the whole roster in DoW1. But you don't HAVE to. Relics are considered critical points and in Take And Hold if you control > 50% of critical points for 7 minutes you win in DoW1. Hero units such as the farseer, harlequin, force commander, chaplain, chaos sorceror, etc..
And I was being rude but man, you gotta check your tone out in that post. It shouldn't have set me off but it did. Too much back and forth when I know it's not going to go anywhere. Your mind was made up before this game came out whether you admit it to yourself or not. It never got a fair shake. And that's sad. But what's sadder and weirder and makes my point for me even more is that people who hate this game are still, STILL haunting the forums, Twitter, Reddit, and youtube looking to disrupt and undermine any attempt to talk about the game positively. If that's not a de facto conspiracy against a game, I dunno what is.
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Decepticats
@jackattack large quantities of people agreeing something is so doesn't make it so. Nor is it a great way to justify the quality or accuracy of an opinion. Yes, a lot of people don't like DoW3. But a lot of people also bought N'Sync's albums and a lot of people currently watch the Kardashians on TV every week. Meanwhile, most people did not like Firefly and it was taken off TV.
The enjoyment of entertainment is not only subjective, but the opinions of humans can be influenced greatly by outside forces. For example: Youtube videos and reddit posts ranting about how a game BETRAYS the series might have a hugely negative impact on sales and the ability for people to objectively evaluate the game itself. I myself had trouble seeing past all those "influencers" (which is what they are called in Marketing terms btw. because they INFLUENCE opinion).
If DoW3 had been given a fair shake it'd be far more popular than it is without any substantial changes to game design.
As for DoW1 still "going strong." No it isn't. And the fact that people play it now doesn't mean they aren't still influenced by nostalgia. When I pick up a controller and start playing Zelda: A Link to the Past, seeing and hearing the game again reminds me of the time I first played it and first experienced it. That was a time when I was much much younger and my life was much much simpler. I was able to enjoy the game so much more because of that and even just REMEMBERING those times even subconsciously gives me an endorphin release that improves my current experience of the game too.
The same thing is true of people's experiences with DoW1 and DoW2. DoW1 was a great game for it's time, as was DoW2. But DoW3 is a very good game too. It's just not the same game you remember so you have to learn a new thing. And that part is hard for people especially in a series with such a fractured community opinion on what makes a game a "Dawn of war" game.
jackattack
>
So if its made more like DoW 1 anyway, would you continue to play it?
Parkerz
Have disagreed on this before, and will do so again. If you say that people didn't buy the game because of rants, I might even accept that. But people who bought the game are not playing it, which is the part that shows that people are, for whatever reason, not enjoying it. If a majority don't enjoy it, then subjectively, it might be good, even objectively, it might be a good game, but it isn't a successful game.
ReubenUK
@Parkerz
There isn't enough repetitive content to play the game for an extended amount of time (playing it as part of a game roster for more than a year).
jackattack
Doesn't make what so? I only said that one group of the masses is largely the same as another group. Nothing particularly distinguishing.
Yes. But was there some concerted political party-style propaganda effort to diss DoW 3? I think not. Unless you wanna believe that Sega's competitors purposely did so in a conspiracy.
There were influencers on the opposite side too. From personal experience, myself and my clique of DoW-loving friends all came to the same conclusion and none of us had been influenced by any influencer. We came to it before the barrage of critical posts.
The point is that the decision makers have the biggest role to blame.
What I'm saying is that its not just nostalgia from the distant past in their heads, because they are actively comparing the games.
I can tell you that I TRIED to like DoW 3. I really did. And my experience is that the game was confused about its identity, I failed to see how it was good, and it really didn't offer longtime fans much, especially based on their prior experiences. Echoed by my clique too.
What more are you gonna say to someone who really tried?
How much DoW 1 have you played? You can really feel the difference.
And what's the "and more" part of DoW 3?
Bottom line is the devs pushed out a game they knew would repulse the longtime fanbase and they managed to make some money of people which became these peoples' sunk cost.
They should've stayed true and continued just like Creative Assembly did. Sega let CA do its thing and asked Relic to branch out but Relic failed. That's a lesson to learn from Total War.
Decepticats
People aren't playing it because Relic stopped supporting it. Without bug fixes or balance support or additional maps or official tournaments to look forward to, the playerbase doesn't feel engaged. Any game that people play constantly is supported by some sort of community if not the developer themselves. DoW3 had a hard time developing a community as even on the official forums there are anti-DoW3 trolls constantly trying to undermine any efforts. No game could endure that. The most fun game ever made would be in the exact same state DoW3 is in given what it's been put through in terms of influencers, agitators, and trolls without official developer support to push through the muck.
Decepticats
@Parkerz Unfortunately, Relic stopped supporting the game. So even those of us that love it don't have anything to look forward to in terms of bug fixes, balance changes, maps, or official tournaments.
But games can survive without official support if they have a community develop around them that supports itself. Again unfortunately, what DoW3 has had to endure with outside influencers, agitators, and downright trolls has created a toxic environment that actively undermines any attempt at rallying a community together. Even the /r/dawnofwariii subreddit, a subreddit founded on the idea that people who liked DoW3 needed somewhere to go where people who hate it wouldn't be is beset by anti-dow3 trolls. There's no where to go to just rally around LIKING the game because the people who hate it have so much fun tracking positive posts about it down and attacking them.
There was no CONSPIRACY to destroy DoW3. But there doesn't have to be a de jure conspiracy to destroy something. Actually, internet opinion works in a de facto hivemind. I could spend about 30 pages explaining how that works but instead I'll just say this: When one influencer of a sufficient size within a specific niche decides to hate something, every smaller fish gloms onto that opinion to ride the wave of people watching that bigger influencer's video (and also probably because they look up to that person they adopt their opinion as a form of sub conscious herd behavior). This happens with everything, not just DoW3 and not just games. That's why the last couple of years have seen the meteoric rise and fall of some mediocre games from somewhat unknown publishers like PUBG, Rocketleague, and now Fortnite (Epic is well known publisher but the formula fits). It just takes one big influencer promoting the game and all the little fish fall in line. Suddenly the game rides a wave of success that lasts as long as it has big influencers behind it.
DoW3 could have easily been one of those games. IMO, it's a better game than all of those games. Unfortunately, folks like Total Biscuit didn't give it half a chance and hated it for not being Starcraft 2 or hated it for not being DoW1/2 or hated it just to hate it and the wave of hate began...
The only way out was through official support or a community free from trolls and haters. Neither was forthcoming.
Game over.
jackattack
The DoW 3 dislike wasn't fad-like at all. There were consistent, solid reasonings behind it. A lesson from Total War to be learned.
Sorry, I had asked 3 more questions too.
Decepticats
@Jackattack I'd say not every game has to be for you. But just because a game isn't for you doesn't mean it's not for anyone. I also think your opinion may have already been colored by videos or experiences. Because when I play DoW3 I don't see a game struggling to find its identity. I see a game that has been refined with polished mechanics and ideas that are trying to bring the genre forward.
I've been playing RTS games since Warcraft 1. I have many hours played in Warcraft 2, 3, Starcraft 1 and 2, Total Annihilation, Total Annhilation: Kingdoms, Supcom, Supcom 2, SpellForce 1-2, and Dawn Of War 1, 2, and 3. I can tell you that even actively comparing two things you are not free from nostalgia. Nostalgia is always with you when you are looking at something you first experienced at a significantly younger stage of your life.
If you honestly compare DoW1 and DoW3 it's just night and day. DoW1 feels more confused about its identity to me than DoW3. It seems like it wanted to be like Starcraft and Warcraft 2 with open base building and annihilation as the main mode but then randomly there are these Relic points (he he named after the developer) that can win the game if the mode is set to allow it. But don't have to be. The maps are somewhat chaotic in their design without much thought to balancing resource locations or providing interesting attack paths. Units overlap their roles for every. single. faction. to the point that you can play a faction match after match after match without ever needing to engage with a lot of its roster. The hero units are powerful but not obvious in the UI so while some make their presence known with powerful abilities, others simply slip up and start pounding dudes without making it obvious to the player that this unit is special. They feel kind of shoe horned in tbh.
Look, DoW1 was a good game for its time. But game development has come a long way since then. The people who design and develop games know more about what makes a game fun and engaging than the people who were doing it in DoW1 days and furthermore, they have better tools to build them with.
That's why DoW3 is laser focused. Every unit has a role and while some units overlap, the way they solve problems provides them distinct places in their rosters. The elites likewise are multi layered and provide space for players to execute skill. The main game mode, Power Core is designed to give direction and form to the contest over territory while drawing players away from key contested resource points on most maps so that a defending player can sneak out for a back cap or harass. There are always multiple attack paths on the maps which are beautifully designed and immerse you in the universe.
And every faction is COMPLETELY different with unique mechanics that lend to the flavor of the units themselves.
Also, SEGA did make CA do something new with Total War: Warhammer. And that game would have gotten the same treatment as DoW3 if not for CA's adept social media team going out there and batting down all the negative nellies and taking the time to engage big name influencers to make sure the game was presented well.
jackattack
My friends too. If you see the polish, then perhaps you might be in the minority, for I think the large bulk of the longtime fanbase shares my views.
Perhaps, but I don't think that alone triggered the backlash.
I agree with that. haha.
The changes made with TW:W gameplay weren't as radical as that of DoW 3. Not close.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree alot with your comments regarding gameplay. Like, the main job of relic points is to be able to build powerful units. Not sure what you're trying to say about it. And powerful units are pretty obvious. In fact any player would've read up on the factions and learnt which units are powerful.
Based on what you've said and your criticism of DoW 1, I must be frank that I have doubt on your claims.
And if what you say is true, your point of view is really unique. Since you're a longtime RTS fan. Either you're lying to yourself, or... I'll be really perplexed as to what's going on in your mind. Perhaps you can shed more light on that. So that I'll understand and not doubt you.
Decepticats
@jackattack I don't give a flip if you doubt me. You're not in charge here man. And your attitude is pretty awful. You are talking to me and others on here like you are implicitly correct and treating us like we're here to serve your interest. I don't care what you and your friends and your invisible majority think. They don't matter. Their opinions put on a scale against mind don't tip it one inch. I've got facts and reasoning. You and they have "I just don't like it." Great, good for you. Why? Make an argument. Present a case. I'm done responding after this if you can't say something more than some accusatory, dismissive, horse manure.
As for this bit
Are you kidding me? Did you play a Total War game before Total War: Warhammer? Here's a brief list of just SOME of what was changed for TW:W
I could go on and on. And TW:W even had a huge scandal before release too by offering Warriors of Chaos day 1 DLC as a pre-order bonus. But they weathered it all, not because the game was better than DoW3 is relative to expectations, but because their PR team was better and they just kept pushing ahead with their plans for supporting the game while communicating what that plan was to their community.
GeneralSkull
@jackattack
@Decepticats
would we pls get back to the matter at hand before the moderators come and get involved
jackattack
I've been pretty direct. But I haven't resorted to any insults. Just direct, that's all. You also talk to me like you know it all.
And now you're the one initiating the rudeness.
I've got facts and reasoning too. I didn't say I just don't like it. I said that I don't see the polish, I see a game that had a haphazard development.
A lot of fantasy elements, true, but the mainstay medieval warfare mechanics intact. Not like DoW 3 on launch.
Relic's PR was really awful, I gotta agree with you on that one.
I see players use a great deal of the roster for their games. And can you answer my question on relics and the hero units? thank you.
Dullahan
No probably not but it really depends on how it makes the transition. If the lethality is reduced to DoW1 levels hell no.
Decepticats
@jackattack I've seen those videos. They are opinion-based. No facts. Just people spouting their opinions which I disagree with and have reasons for disagreeing with. For one thing, everybody criticizes Gabriel's back flip. But he does not flip backwards. He flips forwards. Furthermore, Games Workshop approved EVERYTHING in DoW3. So Gabriel front flipping in special terminator armor? Canon!
The medieval warfare mechanics is the ONLY mainstay of Total war? That's like saying the only mainstay of a DoW game is 40K warfare mechanics... HMMMMMMmmm seems like a double standard is being applied.
You CAN use the whole roster in DoW1. But you don't HAVE to. Relics are considered critical points and in Take And Hold if you control > 50% of critical points for 7 minutes you win in DoW1. Hero units such as the farseer, harlequin, force commander, chaplain, chaos sorceror, etc..
And I was being rude but man, you gotta check your tone out in that post. It shouldn't have set me off but it did. Too much back and forth when I know it's not going to go anywhere. Your mind was made up before this game came out whether you admit it to yourself or not. It never got a fair shake. And that's sad. But what's sadder and weirder and makes my point for me even more is that people who hate this game are still, STILL haunting the forums, Twitter, Reddit, and youtube looking to disrupt and undermine any attempt to talk about the game positively. If that's not a de facto conspiracy against a game, I dunno what is.
GhostC4ke
Well those are opinion-based ? So you must be truth speaker I suppose
But that is your opinion alone