Am I the only person here to hate ELITE?

Mr_Ruin

First of all, I want to apologize to creators of the said mod. It is a well made mod, well thought out, and closer to something made officially than a mod.

BUT, first of, it breaks the community in half. There is a lot of guys I played with which now play Elite, so I cannot play with them. I do have Elite installed, but cannot play it for long before I shut it off and deinstall it. And there is a lot of guys playing vanilla, so to get a proper match in either, you have to wait twice as long as you had to.

Secondly, way too much love for some races, while others get squat. SM, already built on low model count leet units gets even more downright crazy with Sternguard and Vanguard. Also, before, you needed to jump among opponents to throw them around, but now you have a mobile rocket launcher to make any well planned assault into a bloody mess with throwing everyone around.
Chaos which is also way too mighty in vanilla, gets even a greater update with terminators, which decrease the ability of the opponent's forces with each kill. High model count races are basically put to the wall the moment termis get into combat. Also, Raptors. I mean, firstly, this is Chaos, they are viable in melee even without close combat weaponry (with Bloodlust you are more or less able to kill almost anything in close combat with a shooty based army), and then you give' em raptors to increase their melee prowess (which did not lack)? Also, heretics and raptors together in early tech together are bothersome to say the least. And they are not needed cause all three heroes have a way to deal with emplaced locations.
GK's get mobile suppresion unit and Termis without red do I need to say anything else? Several more cheese things, but this should be enough.
While IG gets artillery spotters which are meh to me, and late game Kasrkins which are late. And I am not sure did Nids get anything ... Now, I do understand somebody else will see it differently, but I think you get the gist of what I am trying to say.

Thirdly, those big **++heresy redacted++** maps. Charging for a minute and a half over it for a combat which is over in 30 seconds? Is this Starcraft? I thought DoW's main selling point was that you are bashing with your opponent throughout the entire match, not slogging around a map and asking for directions towards the front how far it is.

And lastly, I have a feeling there are more models in matches in Elite. Which makes commanding that entire force even more complex, add in that Whirlwind I spoke about, and you have a mess in which new players are lost even quicker, so matches against anyone not playing for years are brutally short. Which decreases fan base quicker, which leaves us without opponents and publisher without numbers needed to make DoW3.

Alright, I am done. Now you can spit on my opinion. Go crazy.

Gorb

http://dawnofwar.info/forum/index.php

That's the ELITE forum. That said, you may find they're more inclined to take you to take on your skill level / understanding of mod design than actually recognise anything as a design or balance concern. Despite what it may look like superficially, a lot of thought has gone into the mod.

The learning curve in particular, as far as I'm aware, is a known problem, but solutions aren't easy to come by.

I agree with you in that I don't like (or prefer) ELITE, but my reasoning is mainly due to how the mod changed, and how certain parts of the community use it as an excuse to insult Relic. I remember when all it was was a competitive balance modification

Mr_Ruin

About skill level, believe me I have that covered. I am not the greatest strategist ever to grace DoW 2 but I am handy in a fight. I still strongly believe that something that started as a balance mod became something ... different. Something I quite dislike.

But, I must admit there is nothing there I can do about it, so I really don't know why I even wrote that post. Not a angry rant, cause I didn't play Elite or get beaten or something, but still unnecessary. Sry Gorb.

WarNikolai

in my opinion, most of the mods in all games are just cheap "high" mods... the philosophy is always the same, two unbreakable rules:
- DIZ IZ CUL, ADD IT TO THE GAME
- MOAR THINGZ, BETAH GAME

i have seen really few ACTUAL balance mods among all games, that really balance something. in fact the only i remember is the "unoficial patch" for homeworld 2 which was like... it really improved everything just tweaking, not adding countless units.

also what you said is true. SPEIZ MARHEENS are the cool race, so they receive all the love. even a ""new" "race""

bjack

It's fine to not like it. But I do LOVE having Raptors and especially Terminators as Chaos, and Dark Reapers as Eldar. Mainly just cuz those units are cool. I suppose there was some well thought-out rationale to give Chaos a Tier 1 jump/suppression melee unit. (To help counter weapons teams perhaps?)



Maybe it's me and my lame skillz, but Eldar seem really weak in retail.

The Grey Knights are a bit over the top IMO. It's not uncommon to see people ask for "No GK" when setting up matches.

Certainly more is not always better. If nothing else, to me, Elite feels just a bit more like DOW1 with much greater number of units, which is, of course, awesome.

I'm such a latecomer to DOW2 that I learned to play both retail and Elite simultaneously. (a bit confusing no doubt!) It is interesting to hear opposing viewpoints against the mod and what people like/don't like in each.

Mr_Ruin

But Chaos already has Chaos Lord which can just wade trough suppression, Sorcerer who has several ways to teleport or hide troops to assault suppression and Plague Champion which when under suppression has the same dps as before. And all of them have heretics which can have grenades which can throw around any suppression unit. So Raptors, although they are cool, were not needed. And Rule of cool should have no place in something called balance mod.

Also, Chaos has a though melee T3 unit, no need for Termis. Yes, I will always take termis before GUO, but that is just it. Chaos has (IMO) one of the most powerfull T2, now it also gets terminators? Again, Rule of cool, while it should have no place in a balance mod.

bjack

I don't regularly play whole lot mods in most games. Many of them shoehorn in tacky, unpolished content or break balance. I don't think this mod is one of them IMHO.

Just to throw out one example, the sorcerer's teleports were actually heavily nerfed in the mod. Not everything in the mod is a series of buffs. Plague champion actually moves even slower with some of his wargear choices, so I don't see his counter-suppression mechanic as a game breaker in itself. Terminators are are not a strictly melee unit. They come with storm bolters by default of course, and autocannon is an upgrade option. It can serve as a needed ranged DPS complement.

I respect that you want a form of strict purity. The ironic thing here is that "the rule of cool" you decry is the foundation of everything that is Warhammer 40,000. I mean, wtf is a power fist really?

What factions would you say are under-served by the mod?

Black_Relic

While the Plague Champion does fire the same rate under suppression that does mean he is a counter to set up teams. It just means that in a prolonged fight (and if he has green cover and is under worship and is not focused by anything other that the suppression squad AND the suppression squad is at the PC max range distance) he can peel off models. But he is by no means a suppression team counter.

What Chaos (other than sorc) has a hard time dealing with are multiple suppression teams. And even then you have to spend more than 40 and bleed a crap ton if you ever want to push against them. And since I assume everyone here plays team games more than 1v1 then you have to rely on your team to deal with those suppression team until you can get to t2 and rush a Blood Crusher and punish them. But when you are in a 1v1 game those suppression team will help lock down your power and you in your base. Yes you can just walk the other way but know your enemy know which direction your units are going and good players will not just keep the set up team at your power. They will take them (or at least one) with them to force you off again. And keep in mind as you have no power income and your continually being forced off they have at least one squad of heretic capping the map. And don't get me started on rangers. Chaos has almost no way to stop 2 rangers. They can handle one but 2 is too much for chaos. If you think that a tele sorc will do the job of a Chaos Lord with Combi flamer will do the job you are wrong there. A player will
1: never keep the rangers in the same place after they shoot (if they do they are asking to lose the squad)
2: never leave them unsupported (if they do they are asking to lose the squad.
As chaos the req eco in t1 is fragile. And those rangers demolish it since they will bleed your noise marines and CSM effectively and your heretic are getting creamed by guardians. And that means you don't have a capping squad that can actually cap without be harassed, bleed and forced off. Because after they get forced off what is going to happen? Those Guardians will cap.
Raptors help on that front of multiple suppression squads and mass range blobs. (heretic can help but it's easy to spot when they are using their nade barrage so you can dodge it) Raptors are there to support a push vs set up teams. Now since they suppress when they land and their energy cost to jump is 65 that mean at level 1 and 2 they can deal with one suppression squad effectively. And as you since the t1 roster of chaos can deal with one suppression team so they can deal with the other. Then to make the viable vs tank in t3 (chaos has a hard time vs tanks in t3 in 1v1 of course) they can get melta guns with a melta bomb. They lose their suppression on land when they get this upgrade. But now you have some transitional AV when you get to t3.

As for the whirlwind I will admit i hate fighting against it. I would like to see its firing pattern change. But i can tell you what it is intended for. Range Blobs of death. IG has them. Chaos has them. Eldar (in elite at least) has them. Orks (to an extent) has them. And nid (definitely nids) has them. Space Marines have a very hard time with a well constructed range blob of death. Yes you say ASM but a proper range blob of death can deal with one or two of them. Even if you throw in a teleporting FC they can still reach a stalemate with you. In those 3 squads (no thunder and lighting on ASM just the serg and no armor upgrade on the FC) that is 220 power just on those 3 units to reach a stalemate and bleed heavily against a range blob or death that usually cost a simple 60-80 power to create. And Nids range blob of death are a perfect example.

The Nid pop count per model is very very strong. I can get 8 squad and still be able to get a fex if i handle to squad reinforcement manually. I like to get both melee and range synapse so i'll tell you what i usually build (which works way better in retail than in elite). Hormaguants, 2 Termagants, Raveners, Warriors, Zonthrobe, Venom Cannon Warriors, and Genestealers. And Even after all that I can still get a fex. Vehicles? No problem, i have a snare from zonthrobe, Venom Cannon warriors, Heavy melee warriors and Genestealers. Melee Walker No problem. They dont have melee resist despite being a melee superiority unit. Genestealers can use adrenaline rush, kill the walkers and suffer maybe (maybe) 2 model loses. Teleporting FC with Thunder Hammer? No problem, crippling poison, split your forces, crippling poison again, and focus him down. And If ASM is there and jumps with the FC just have the Genestealers eat them as the hormagaunts and the warriors to to tie up a dangerous ranged squad. Or A plasma Devs (or suppression team) ravener go burrow strike the and force melee. For SM, this is VERY hard to dislodge. IG has insane sricing dps in stormtroopers (who really don't need the anti infantry kit and can still become and AV unit if needed). Orks get a weirdboy with their range blob (good luck tying them up against a 8 seconds stun from warp vomit. Chaos, 2 tcsm asked to get jump, gets what is nearby? Heretics and either a MoK (MoT can be use to counter initiate to and extent with its barrage ability. Use it to stop support for the ASM and focus them down) or blood letters. And most likely the chaos player will have havocs so you have to jump those any way. And while all this is happening they have something (even a hero) going around capping the map.

Black_Relic

The whirlwind is needed in the SM roster. I agree it's too powerful atm but it fills in a major gap for SM.

To answer your question on Sternguard veterans Ill say this. Tactical Squads are very versatile and can get weapons to combat every armor type in the game. However you have to purchase these upgrade over and over again. The keeps you from getting squads out. They arent a specialist unit like tacs (when tacs get plasma gun they turn into a specialist unit toward heavy infantry). They might be able to combat every weapon type in the game but they do not damage them as good a tacs if they have a specific type of weapon for the job. Sternguard Kraken bolts are to combat heavy infantry. They don't do nearly as much damage as PLasma gun tacs but they do more than vanilla tacs vs HI. Dragon fire round are to combat units in heavy cover or that are garrisoned. Flamer does a better job at it on normal tacs. But Sterguards can get the job done to just take them a bit long due to the fact that dragonfire rounds damages a single unit in the garrison. The Flamer his every unit in the garrison. Vengeance rounds are to deal with SHI and vehicle armor. They serve as a soft counter to both but again tacs can combat those units better with their specific upgrade toward those armor types.

So Sterguards are there to give the player the flexibility of tactical marines with no cost with the downside being they don't do as much damage as tacs with a specific upgrade toward that armor type. The only exception to this is Hellfire rounds. But they cause a damage over time on hit only against infantry and fire resistance infantry.

Vanguards. Idk about them. They over abit more counters vs nobs (barely though) with their power melee weapons. They bleed HI pretty well. Their power fist is OK vs tanks and can chase low health ones. They only thing i really get them for is against range variant terminators.

As for the new thing for nids they got a nerothrobe. A sub commander with caz abilities. Terminator, GOU, and avatar are easy to deal with with this guy around. They also got an amazing upgrade for guants that they can reinforce 2 at a time and it adds to their squad count (10 max in a squad compared to 8) and for no extra pop! Atm i think Nids are OP tbh. But they always were when they got going. But the Endless Swarm is to help with req bleed nids are affected by when a prolonged t3 happens.

Spotters are amazing!! Even better with a commissar Lord! Reduce enemy range by 50% by spotters, than another 50% from basilick (prob spelt that wrong) flare. Kasrkin have insane DPS. If you have Ograns to soak up damage and you have 2 kasrkin squads with plasma guns. well let's say you throw in a "lead by example" and a execute buff and terminators are pretty much deleted (if they are focused down for 6-7 seconds). IG are in a pretty good spot atm. Their heavy weapon team can now target units now. If you do so in retail the member without a weapon will run up to the targeted squad. Then your opponent can just force melee on the units and de set up the set up team.

Grey Knights have a lot of work ahead of them. But Paladins will be a call in and cost red next patch. But they require alot of work.

Lastly. In Elite Mod heavy tier 1's a necessary. If you try to get to t2 with 4 squads (includes your hero) then most of the time you will lose both gens and eventually the game since you can't get out of base. If you go for a light t1 (or a no power purchase t1) in 1v1 in elite then you will lose the game. Its that simple.

Plus there are tons or balance issues that were addressed and fixed. The biggest one was sluggas breaking suppression and being suppression immune and taking less damage and getting an increase in speed. Thats nuts. Instead the get a 40% damage resistance vs range attacks and have an increase in their speed. That's totally reasonable.

The other is the Swift Movement global by the warlock. In Retail that stacks with all movement. Banshees have a movement speed of 5. Their charge adds 3. Fleet of Foot adds 3. So they chase stupidly well already. they are at 11 movement speed. That is almost a guaranteed wipe on a squad. You add in Swift Movement their movement speed is now 14. That is a guaranteed kill on a full hp havoc that is flanked. even if you knock them back. They can catch up to the havoc anyway.

In Elite that movement does not stack. Still a good global but it isn't insane as it is in retail.

But there you go. I play Elite because personally I feel like it is way more balanced and retail and offers more alternative to counter your enemy or cause a headache for him/her.

And if you want to learn about elite there is a group on steam for beginners were you can set up games and sometimes tournaments between the beginners take place. There is a learning curve but people will help you. Me included.

Had to post twice since my post was going to be too long.

Oddnerd

Elite Mod had to happen. I know it sucks to have the player base split in two, but this game in vanilla form has so many glaring oversights and bugs that a mod which at least attempts to balance things was necessary. Furthermore, vanilla balancing and tweaking seems to have been mostly abandoned, and most fixes are extremely slow to occur.

I have tried to go back to vanilla many times, but invariably I end up with horrible games that involve everyone just teching up and spamming (Annihilate/2v2v2/high res, all terrible game modes not worth playing). I know that the Elite mod inner clique are very pro-astartes, but that is still better than leaving the game in horribly unfinished form as it is in vanilla.

Ruzdreg

I assume that the Elite mod is purely for multiplayer and has no support for The Last Stand?

Gorb

As far as I'm aware there are no changes to TLS, but I could be mistaken.

WiseWindu

Nope, no changes to Last Stand yet. The matchmaking for Last Stand works, but there are always more people searching matchmaking in vanilla. Most stuff in Elite is done through pre-made or custom games because it just tends to be easier and faster.