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Farseer Macha returns. With change of look.
SharKnight
Alright as happy as I am that farseer macha is returning I am a bit dissapointed on something.
Why doesnt she have her helmet and pony tail that make her so iconic from the rest of other farseers? The only think to indicate that she is Macha right now its because of the stripes on her cheeks which became popularized by 4chan.
When I think about Macha I think in a femenine and graceful farseer with white armor, cloak and a prominent ponytail. Without them she just looks like your generic eldar farseer, She is basically Idranel 2.0
Seriously? At least I have the solace that they are still in progress so this could still be fixed. And besides she is supposed to be pretty "why do you think she is the waifu of /tg/?"
What are your thoughts on her model etc..?
Comments
SharKnight
BTW, I am not sure if it was a nod or if I am missing something but, her having stripes on her cheeks... I guess 4chan will be very happy.
Anyways I was picturing we would have something to look like this:
Ellie
what? macha doesnt look anything special in dow 1 at all. every other farseer has the same look as her, the same helmet. she doesnt look unique whatsoever.
for comparison, this is a (fully upgraded) taldeer from dark crusade.
http://i.imgur.com/g1rx2nb.jpg
Adridos
Nicole Oliver.
Just look at how many people on /mlp/ fawn over her despite ever doing anything... Just like Macha, pretty much.
Auric
I think you're making a bit of a fuss here. Macha appeared in one game, and never showed her face. She looked identical to every farseer in DOW1. The only reason her ponytail was so prominent was due to the biel tan colours, which made it red on a white background.
I find it difficult to comment on her model as I haven't seen a close up, but I think her artwork makes her look pretty while still looking like a warrior.
And for that matter, I would say the same about Idranel.
Renner
She looks awesome, what a wonderful face design. In DoW she looked like every single generic Farseer in other expansions, just with another color pattern. Idranel broke that in DoW2, and I'm happy seeing the continuation in DoW3. Really, really nice looking. But, Holy Emperah, its not like in DoW1. Oooooh, my nostalgic tinted glasses, sniff, sniff.
SharKnight
I disagree with you.
Macha appeared in 1 game and her model was used for the other farseers but with some modifications. Now one thing its her looking like all the farseers from dow 1 and another its looking like all the farseers from DOW 2 and generic ones.
The point is the silhuette its very improtant but Relic art director for this project its completely ignoring it, keeping the silhuette it's something that every art director always keeps in mind and knows its important. Want a few examples of who said such thing? Ken Sugimori and Samwise Didier.
Ken sugimori keeps the silhuette of every pokemon completely unique - despite them being over 700 - and Samwise did the same with Starcraft.
When I saw this new Farseer Macha model "if I hadnt known that macha would appear, nor of the 4chan meme cheeks" I would not have known that it is her. Even people on facebook are asking who that is and if it is actually Macha.
This is not about Nostalgia @Renner, but actual art knowledge as I stated above. Macha looks like an Idranel clone. All DOW 2 did was use a new model for their farseer and DOW 3 looks like they are using the same model silhuette as the one from DOW 3 which is NOT Macha.
Every other farseer in dow 1 which uses her actual model. The point is when you think of Macha what do you think? A white farseer with a red pony tail and a femenine figure right?
g0ll0
Dont worry for the look of the the heroes... the game will be plagued with skins in the online store so you could change the look of your favorite units... this is something relic has not confirmed but im pretty sure about they are going for the moba model so expect a online store with tons of skins or (this is something bad) buy different elite units
BlessedSpartan
I'm quite happy with the character design, from the screen shot, Relic had one hero design in dow 1, she also mentioned before had a helmet on, this time she doesnt and she looks great! We actually know what she looks like! Awesome well done relic
SharKnight
Look great? literally she looks like a copy paste from Idranel now. She doesnt even have her pony tail no more. What they have done is have a generic character that doesnt tell you she is Macha unless someone tells you that she is.
That isnt necesarily a good thing you know. For me the art direction it's very important as well. What they did to Macha was basically "in terms of sonic" Taking away the moustahce and googles from dr eggman and changing his red jacket into a white one. Meaning, you wont know who that character is unless they specify it to you by exposition.
They literally placed a giant coin on her head!
SharKnight
I see the way the art director thinks and I disagree with him because he is completely getting rid of her silhuette which is the most important thing I mean how could they get rid of her ponytail?! How?! that's like the most iconic thing of Macha's character. And her red cloak just makes her look clunky.
Only because of her celtic name he decided to make her look more celtic? I understand but there was absolutel NO REASON to make such radical change on her.
I know what you must be thinking "relic art director knows what he is doing he is a pro, who are you to say such thing" well I didnt said it but actual professional veterans on the videogame industry did and they happen to be the art directors from Blizzard and GameFreak. And they are absolutely right.
Look if someone showed you the picture of DOW 3 macha without knowing its from DOW or telling you that it is macha you wouldnt even know its her. The only thing that would give you a clue are her cheek stripes "which originate from 4chan"
This is my concern, and I think I am one of the few that are concerned about art direction rather than gameplay - we have a lot of people that are concerned on that already.
Zimbo123
Yeah, I remember her pony tail being the distinguishing feature in DOW1. I'm wondering if they're thinking because they removed the mask and still gave her the red hair that it was still easy to recognise her?
Nah not at all, just because someone is a pro doesn't mean they're necessarily right. Do you have the link to those comments from Blizzard and GameFreak (curious to see what they have to say)?
Yeah I was doing some reading and seeing they were from 4Chan, from ++heresy redacted++ I think his name was.
It's a fair concern. I haven't made up my mind on the art style yet, I like it and I don't like it. I can't really put my finger on the reasons why I'm in two minds yet.
Auric
And I think it's quite clear now why our opinions differ. I never felt Macha was particularly important to Dawn of War, in that she only appeared in the first game, and as far as I remember (could be wrong, was a while ago) you never play as her, you just kill her troops. Because I never felt she was important, I don't really care about her silhouette, because I don't need to recognise her, because I don't really remember her anyway. I myself certainly wouldn't compare her to the likes of Mario, who has now been present as the protagonist in loads of games, compared to Macha as one of the smaller antagonists in one game.
Clearly she left a bigger mark on some people, in which case I would agree it is a shame for them that she isn't really recognisable anymore.
Having said that, this doesn't apply to me, and I quite like the design, celtic warrior and all.
BlessedSpartan
It's a bit odd because no one has complained about Gabriels appearance. Secondly she does look different and very clearly so from Idranel
I mean maybe farseers All look very simular?
my point is the silhouette was always going to change with the different art style. she hadn't been around for 2 games ( though I think she makes a cameo in Dow 2 retribution) So I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Maybe she has longer hair that you just can't see. She looks more alien in my opinion and saying she looks no different is just crazy when you compare Every Dow who hero is a copy and paste of the previous one with a different head.
Relic thank you for taking in feedback you even chose a darker looking map though it looks like a painting xD
SharKnight
Yes perhaps it wasnt a proper explanation but you sort of get the idea. Point and case is regardless of how the new Macha looks it just doesnt look like macha. It's a complete new thing and that is the problem. You cant tell its her at plain sight.
Gabriel for all reasons and porpuses retained his silhuette. When you hear or think of Gabriel what comes to your mind?; A marine in big red armor with a flowing black cape, a giant thunder hammer and white hair right? That is basically the description from DOW 1, 2 and it comes back in dow 3. Even thought he changed armor to represent his evolution to chapter master he still retains it.
Unlike Gabriel, Macha retained absolutely NONE of her previous features and that's why she doesnt look like Macha which is the actual problem here. Her silhuette is completely gone and you cant even call it an evolution of her silhuette because she didnt retain a single feature. Essentially her silhuette it's almost the same as idranel, maybe to you it doesnt because of details and stuff but at plain sight she does look like her.
As for style as an excuse to change silhuette its a terrible excuse. I mean look at Zelda franchise for a moment, in every game they change styles and yet they keep Links silhuette and traits. Even for the enemies that make re-appearances!
SharKnight
I will try to find them, I saw them a while ago but Samwise didier comment comes from the "making starcraft 2 wings of liberty" dvd that came with the game. I'll try to get that specific segment thought.
Ken sugimori's was a really long time ago but I will try to find it too. Still if people dont believe me then they can check the pokemon silhuette thing that come in the newer pokemon games and you'll see by yourself what I mean.
It's not that Macha's new design it's bad. It just doesnt look like her at all. Had they kept her pony tail hair style and white/cape/armor colours then at least I feel it would have sort of made the trick.
BlessedSpartan
Firstly do not compare zelda and adventure game to Dow franchise. And on that note In twilight and wind waker the silhouettes were changed.
Macha was never considered by many as an important charater. on Dow 1 relic didn't Wang to waste resources on a new model. I Dow 2 they probably tried to keep the gardener as close to the table top without a helmet as they could.
In Dow 3 many things have changed she looks pretty cool which of course is objective.
When I think of Gabriel I think of his Dow 2 incarnation a space marine with a golden Chest and white hair. that's all been changed is silhouette had totally changed.
Either way I played yesterday and I legit stopped caring what the units looked like and was mite focused on keeping them alive and killing elder
Also xD She had a helmet on so no one even knew what she looked like haha!
SharKnight
You just cant possibly be missing the point this much.
No one is comparing, I am using them as an example. And I am sorry but Link's silhuette in wind waker remains the same in twilight princess. It's just the art style that changes. His hair it's the same and later on he has the same cap and shield.
It doesnt matter if she is important or not, the point is that new Macha doesnt look at all like original Macha. Being important or not it's not an excuse to completely redesign it's character from scratch, that's just a lazy excuse.
You forgot to add the hammer, black cape and red armor too you know...
As I stated above this is evolution of a silhuette, not a complete overhaul. Why? because it retains traits from it's original incarnation, something that Macha completely lacks.
BlessedSpartan
@SharKnight
Okay, so i understand now where you're coming from but I don't see this as an issue for many reasons
Macha was not that much of an important character in dow 1, as was Idranel or any of the Eldar, heroes. Thus why Relic simply changed the colour scheme whilst keeping the model the same. They were faceless secondary antagonists and are only relevant now because relic says so, unlike the Space Marine heroes seen in previous games (more so Macha as Idranel was in dow 2 RIP).
Thule and Gabe were identical in only that thier hair/voice acting held them apart, which was later changed in dow 2.
Idranel, who also appeared in dow 2 had a slight silhouette change and redesign. Not an issue, we accepted it as her because none of us knew what she looked like, due to the helmet and her previous incarnation being a clone of macha who by that point had no unique appearance.
DOW 3 has now again taken this opportunity to make Macha look unique because she is now a more important character. She needs to look memorable and the best way to achieve this is by making her stand out from ALL of the previous DOW 1 clones. Notice as from your point, even though i somewhat disagree but w/e Gabe looks similar to his old dow 2 and dow 1 incarnations, the same for Jonah, because they were important characters who we saw a lot of in every expansion. Not clones of each other.
So for those reasons although yes i agree she does look different, the reasons behind it are sound and justifed, you want characters of import to stand out and I welcome this new look. She wore a helmet, so we had no idea what she previously looked like, and on that note of looking more like idranel, GOOD! dow 1 was a dated game and she looks better now imo. This warrants a character redesign and a sillhoute change if nessecry.
Lastly, the reason i mentioned LOZ is because those two have been in every game ever and continued a look so yes it would be odd if that changed. Macha before now wasnt important and only made one appearance. So thats why i said don't use that as an example.
I hope that clears things up
Apollyon
bruh, she looks nothing like an alien, christ she doesn't even look eldar with those honking ears sticking out the side of her head, she looks like a sodding blood elf
I've never liked the whole pretty human face deal with eldar anyway, this is how an eldar should look IMO
it looks humanoid and you can clearly see the elven inspiration, but the appearance remains uncanny enough to be strange and "alien"
SharKnight
Her importance it's irrelevant and this is a very poor excuse to change her silhuette and looks completely. Altought I do understand where you are coming from with this, you are being too condescending to DOW 3's Art direction.
How can she have a silhuette change and re-design if she was a completely new character? There is absolutely no issue with new characters being introduced with brand new designs.
Idranel wasnt even a clone of Macha at all, I would have called her character being more a clone of Taldeer since all she did was wail about uncoming doom and stuff. But in silhuette and shape and model, New macha looks A LOT like her and that itself its a problem.
By unique you mean generic and like an exact clone of a previous character antagonist? And sporting the usual vest that ever single farseer "including eldrad" has? I do understand that they wanted to make her stand out more and all, but at least they could have had the modicum to have some of her actual traits be passed, like armor color, cape, pony tail. Her new hairstyle it's a mistake because it is the same as Idranel.
Gabriel's shape and form in dow 3 its an evolution of his previous form and silhuette and he retained many traits, same with Jonah. But Macha retained absolutely none of those.
I dont think being a dated game its an excuse to change a characters look completely, other franchises and I mean both videogames and even GW do that. I mean have you seen the new Kharn and Eldrad? Their past models where from the mid 90's! and now look at them now. You can tell right away that its them since they kept their looks and characteristic traits.
I dont mind her not carrying a helmet but what you are pointing out its pretty subjective to opinion on wether she looks good or not. The point here is that new model doesnt look like Macha at all, and in fact it looks generic. Or tell me, what looks iconic about this new design that makes her stand out from the rest of the farseers?
BlessedSpartan
I Agree, though i apologies i didn't mean to come across condescending in away.
I personally never valued her original character as important so i suppose thats where we differ.
My main point was that she wasn't considered that important of a chracter since we didnt see her again even during retribution, (or maybe we did) so i assumed that they would redesign her here. I'm hoping for a model like we got with Jonah, @Kat_RE would this be possible.
Nautiloidor
I agree, If they wanted to make a "celtic" looking Farseer, just make a new one. Macha's reddy ginger ponytail was one of the most iconic things about her.
However, there is a high probability that the "hair" you see on the outside of Eldar's armour is actually armour decoration, NOT their actual hair (look at howling banshees...). This may also be the case for Farseers?
And of course, the Eldar have joined the whole "commanders aren't allowed to wear helmets" movement.... #clarity.
I LOVE the her new armour though! Actually, there are only 3 things I don't like about Macha so far in DOW3.
I do like the face stripes, which is a nice shout out to the smar/tg/uys over at 4chan. Although lets hope they don't delve too deep into '/tg/ 40,000' surrounding Macha...
Nautiloidor
I don't think she looks generic at all. She's more body armour than the normal robe with runes. I think her ponytail was a feature of her helmet. She looks pretty badass to me.
Her ears are my only qualm, but this is only in some artwork (her ears in the profile picture for this forum are shrek ears...)
She only bears resemblance to Idranel because of being a helmetless female Farseer. Their amour,face,colours,weapon,abilities are completely different. Much more different than the Farseers from the original DOW and its expansions.
SharKnight
I think they did a good job with Jonah you know, altought for a chief librarian I would have expected a bit more here and there. I still think the staff top could look cooler. But over all I like it.
Also why apologise? I just thought you where being too soft with relic on the matter. And yes I understand where you are coming from, so dont worry.
You think she only resembles Idranel cause of her being bare headed? Not because of the silhuette and hairstyle? She is basically an Idranel recolour on a different game if we go by silhuette and basic shapes.
And considering that most Eldar farseers in relic are always written in the same way of "ohh doom is upon us" I think the look isnt doing her any favors. Now dont get me wrong, I like that she doesnt have a helmet now but she is missing waaay too much things to connect her to actual Macha. Had they given her an actual pony tail then that would have helped, as I have stated multiple times the problem is that she doesnt look like Macha at all.
Also whats up with the coin on her head and those ears? she looks like a fantasy elf rather than an eldar. "shrek ears giggles" ohh poor macha.
SharKnight
I am quite sure the hair it's supposed to be hers, also she has red hair on the new model so I think it's pretty safe to confirm it was hers. Altought I think her hair was a bit more orange/ginger than red I think.
Her armor looks nice but I have no idea why her color palette it's completely different than her original one. They literally went completely reverse.
I agree with the points that you stated, they are the exact same thing that I have beena arguing about her character. plus the color palette that they chose for her.
Kat_RE
Kat_RE
Please keep all discussions relating to Macha in this thread. When myself or other developers are looking for information, it helps us a great deal to keep it all organized in one place!
Zimbo123
Hi @Kat_RE , are we able to have a look at the model soon?
SharKnight
Yeah, sorry @Kat_RE I'll let other folks know to keep it here then.
Saffron
So we post here about Macha, I hope I got it right.
It would be great if you can fix her hair and that coin on head