I have been saying Relic have taken liberties with the lore (with GW's approval) since threads like this started
As for the Terminator, the occupant was perfectly fine after being stepped on by a Titan. A Space Wolf, if I'm remembering my core rulebooks right; it was to do with the Crux Terminatus and the defensive shield it generated (represented by the Invulnerable save in Tabletop).
And I'm really confused as to why you would think Relic had any say in the novel commission to a third-party author published by someone affiliated with Games Workshop, and not Relic. It seems to me that you're trying to pin blame where none exists.
@Gorb said:
I have been saying Relic have taken liberties with the lore (with GW's approval) since threads like this started
As for the Terminator, the occupant was perfectly fine after being stepped on by a Titan. A Space Wolf, if I'm remembering my core rulebooks right; it was to do with the Crux Terminatus and the defensive shield it generated (represented by the Invulnerable save in Tabletop).
Again, it doesn't matter if the suit survived, all the shielding wouldn't stop the momentum on the body being stopped by the ground. He'd have some serious groin bruising at the very least. If Terminators could just stop momentum like that they'd just drop out the backs of aircraft like assault marines do.
And I'm really confused as to why you would think Relic had any say in the novel commission to a third-party author published by someone affiliated with Games Workshop, and not Relic. It seems to me that you're trying to pin blame where none exists.
You're focusing on the wrong thing here, but you said you know Relic don't exactly have a good history of accuracy, hopefully you understand the point. GW not saying anything about Relic's lack of knowing basic things doesn't mean much, they generally have fairly low standards for non official things. Like basically every other game ever and the novels.
@Gorb said:
Terminator Armour was made so that a Titan can stand on it, and the wearer survive (this is one of the earliest recorded pieces of rulebook lore on Terminator Armour, too). I'm not sure you can make assumptions on "what it was made for".
It's not the armor that's the cause for concern but the guy in it. If you're in a thick metal box dropped from a high height, the metal box will probably survive unscathed, but you'll still feel the full force of the landing and probably not, even normal assault marines with jump packs use them to slow the decent. A Space Hulk is in space, and that's from a novel anyway.
Just a minor question, why does it matter so much that they are in a metal box if the box is capable of not deforming on impact, since as long as density is high enough to ignore air resistance weight should not matter. So as long as the armour does not collapse on the marine inside, he 'only' needs to be able to withstand the impact of his own body. Also, only another novel, but in a Ciaphas Cain novel, The Emperor's Finest there is a mention of a terminator simply dropping down to support/save Cain.
The book I think you're referring to must've been a DoW official novel kind of thing? Which wasn't written by anyone at Relic, and published by Black Library.
Unless someone at Relic did write a novel and I'm not aware of it!
If they didn't even bother to read the promotional novel series that came with their game to check it for nonsense, it doesn't really help to illustrate they care about authenticity does it? Thats not even an isolated case, we've gone from those novels in DoW and the basically nonsensically important Blood Raven's story to khorne sorcerers in DoW II. The point is no one should be surprised by Relic saying they don't care about the universe it's set in or authenticity as it's been that way basically since the start.
@Auric said:
It's all put in to try and create a game that works and that people find enjoyable. For all their flaws, I haven't had a Dawn of War game that I didn't enjoy (yes, even Soulstorm). Maybe people should just relax on this whole 'disregard for the lore' and realise it has been going on for a long time, and for a good reason.
There's degrees to that though. On one side there's minor things like the 3 man tactical squads that aren't exactly typical (though might happen) but are understandable from a gameplay perspective. Some other things they're doing and done though don't really add anything to the experience and just end up diluting the setting down for no benefit.
If they really don't care about making it an "authentic" experience then they might as well just make their own game in their own universe. That way they can do whatever with, like Blizzard did for different reasons where they can have free reign and not put off people.
Please never again mention C. S. Goto's books. Those things are absolutely heretical. Multilazers on everything, Biel tan and Blood Ravens bro-ing around. Blood Ravens having a miniature Astronomican on Omnis Arcanum, etc. Those are some of the worst books ever printed by Black Library and although they have a lot of bad books, those are the absolute worst. Even Furious Abyss and Descent of Angels were better.
You guys are discussing the physics of an universe where tanks are less armoured than today's tanks, where people regularly travel aboard flying cathedrals through Hell because it's (most of the time) faster than light, and hulking, where acid-spitting guys with redundants bio-engineered organs wear armours powered by a nuclear reactor in their backpack.
If GW doesn't consider the physics and the "believability" of its own universe to be that important, how can you expect Relic to do so?
40k runs on rule of cool. It has always been the case, and hopefuly it will always be.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Please never again mention C. S. Goto's books. Those things are absolutely heretical. Multilazers on everything, Biel tan and Blood Ravens bro-ing around. Blood Ravens having a miniature Astronomican on Omnis Arcanum, etc. Those are some of the worst books ever printed by Black Library and although they have a lot of bad books, those are the absolute worst. Even Furious Abyss and Descent of Angels were better.
So tempted to mention the whole "the Ultramarines in Winter Assault were Alpha Legion in disguise" bit...
@Xerith said:
Just a minor question, why does it matter so much that they are in a metal box if the box is capable of not deforming on impact, since as long as density is high enough to ignore air resistance weight should not matter. So as long as the armour does not collapse on the marine inside, he 'only' needs to be able to withstand the impact of his own body. Also, only another novel, but in a Ciaphas Cain novel, The Emperor's Finest there is a mention of a terminator simply dropping down to support/save Cain.
The force of the motion has to go somewhere. If the metal box doesn't absorb the impact by crumpling then it passes on the forces to whatever was inside it fully. Falling from about 20m in height constantly would destroy his leg muscles and ligaments pretty quickly, even if he was genetically altered.
You shouldn't ever rely on novels as they typically say basically everything silly ever. They aren't generally considered a proper source of anything but just in universe stories about events that might not have actually happened. If they did they are told in an dramatized way that more than likely stretches the truth for dramatic impact rather than a "realistic" retelling.
Oh the other thing the novels are a source of are amusing things that a certain author wrote.
@Silk said:
You guys are discussing the physics of an universe where tanks are less armoured than today's tanks, where people regularly travel aboard flying cathedrals through Hell because it's (most of the time) faster than light, and hulking, where acid-spitting guys with redundants bio-engineered organs wear armours powered by a nuclear reactor in their backpack.
All of those examples are consistent to the universe's own rules however so make in universe sense. As assault marines slow their own impact it's kind of safe to assume even lighter Space Marines don't like taking drops full speed onto their legs. So it's kind of safe to assume that instead of all jump pack users wishing to sound light on their feet that they do so for some kind of safety need.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Please never again mention C. S. Goto's books. Those things are absolutely heretical. Multilazers on everything, Biel tan and Blood Ravens bro-ing around. Blood Ravens having a miniature Astronomican on Omnis Arcanum, etc. Those are some of the worst books ever printed by Black Library and although they have a lot of bad books, those are the absolute worst. Even Furious Abyss and Descent of Angels were better.
Maybe he can be convinced to make a novel for the special edition of DoW III?
@Mr_Ruin said:
Please never again mention C. S. Goto's books. Those things are absolutely heretical. Multilazers on everything, Biel tan and Blood Ravens bro-ing around. Blood Ravens having a miniature Astronomican on Omnis Arcanum, etc. Those are some of the worst books ever printed by Black Library and although they have a lot of bad books, those are the absolute worst. Even Furious Abyss and Descent of Angels were better.
So tempted to mention the whole "the Ultramarines in Winter Assault were Alpha Legion in disguise" bit...
Oh, forgot about that part -.- . Although he was the first to start with Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, (heresy era marines in red guarding a world and Eldar seeing no difference between the two ten thousand years later - although Eldars are massive di**s so maybe all Astartes are interchangable to them) so even he got something right.
@Silk said:
You guys are discussing the physics of an universe where tanks are less armoured than today's tanks, where people regularly travel aboard flying cathedrals through Hell because it's (most of the time) faster than light, and hulking, where acid-spitting guys with redundants bio-engineered organs wear armours powered by a nuclear reactor in their backpack.
If GW doesn't consider the physics and the "believability" of its own universe to be that important, how can you expect Relic to do so?
40k runs on rule of cool. It has always been the case, and hopefuly it will always be.
Warhammer works on rule of cool and some things are not explainable. But the rest of the things are. Emperor envisaged SM's for close quarters and long battles, something a regular human cannot do (ADB - Betrayer). That longevity of battles and lethality of close combat are reasons for so much of their ''improvements''.
Some Astartes reactors need recharge every few days if they degraded (Chaos), while others are fully working miniature fusion reactors. We are fumbling with fusion, who says they didn't perfect it in 28 000 years? Although probably needs a lot of knowledge and resources to create so it is mostly used for top notch war machines. Like Astartes warplate. And is hard to succesfully maintain, so Chaos Marines in Black Crusade rulebook can choose what parts of their armour are still working.
Ships look like cathedrals to ward off daemons. Daemons are all about symbolism - being easier to kill with fire and swords than modern weaponry cause it is similar to how they were summoned (Dan Abnett - Know no Fear)
But somersaulting in Tactical Dreadnought armour is a bit of a strech. And if we are going with rule of cool, to me it doesn't look cool, it looks childish. If someone thinks differently, ok. And isn't supported by anything written or shown before. If they can jump like that why are they even giving them teleporters? Just let them drop from Thunderhawks. Less usage of temperamental tech which could jam you into a mountain.
@Misery said:
All of those examples are consistent to the universe's own rules however so make in universe sense.
Yet the example of the Terminator armour withstanding a Titan's stomp, which is from a similar source, is somehow inconsistant with the universe and/or physics.
The force of the motion has to go somewhere. If the metal box doesn't absorb the impact by crumpling then it passes on the forces to whatever was inside it fully. Falling from about 20m in height constantly would destroy his leg muscles and ligaments pretty quickly, even if he was genetically altered.
What if the entirety of the kinetic energy was (somehow, by the magic of the mighty bullshitium) dissipated in heat and used to deform the ground around the point of impact? What if the defensive shield produced by the Crux Terminatus absorbed most of it?
You shouldn't ever rely on novels as they typically say basically everything silly ever. They aren't generally considered a proper source of anything but just in universe stories about events that might not have actually happened. If they did they are told in an dramatized way that more than likely stretches the truth for dramatic impact rather than a "realistic" retelling.
Yes, but the codices are considered this way too. GW people basically said "ignore everything you don't like, as long as you have fun with your headcanon".
@Mr_Ruin said:
Warhammer works on rule of cool and some things are not explainable.
Thank you for conceding on this point.
[...] Some Astartes reactors need recharge every few days if they degraded (Chaos), while others are fully working miniature fusion reactors. We are fumbling with fusion, who says they didn't perfect it in 28 000 years?
So why is it so difficult to admit that we can also develop technology that withstands the weight of a Titan?
But somersaulting in Tactical Dreadnought armour is a bit of a strech. And if we are going with rule of cool, to me it doesn't look cool, it looks childish. If someone thinks differently, ok. And isn't supported by anything written or shown before.
Yes, but apparently it looked cool to Relic's people.
Frankly, it doesn't look so cool to me either: I would have prefered something I recognized from previous sources, like a good'ol'fashion teleportation. My idea is just that if you can find a way to explain it with which you're happy, then that's it - because your headcanon is as valuable as your neighbour's, and 40k is all headcanons conflicting with each other (unfortunately) due to the way GW manages their IP.
If they can jump like that why are they even giving them teleporters? Just let them drop from Thunderhawks. Less usage of temperamental tech which could jam you into a mountain.
@Xerith said:
Just a minor question, why does it matter so much that they are in a metal box if the box is capable of not deforming on impact, since as long as density is high enough to ignore air resistance weight should not matter. So as long as the armour does not collapse on the marine inside, he 'only' needs to be able to withstand the impact of his own body. Also, only another novel, but in a Ciaphas Cain novel, The Emperor's Finest there is a mention of a terminator simply dropping down to support/save Cain.
The force of the motion has to go somewhere. If the metal box doesn't absorb the impact by crumpling then it passes on the forces to whatever was inside it fully. Falling from about 20m in height constantly would destroy his leg muscles and ligaments pretty quickly, even if he was genetically altered.
This makes no sense to me honestly, if you are inside a box with no physical contact with the box except your feet, you will not get any force of the motion from the impact from the box. If the box collapses, then yes, you must support it, but as long as the box around can withstand the forces, you inside should not have to worry about it.
@Gorb said:
Especially when (coming in at number 14), Apollo Diomedes can straight-up cause earthquakes if you upgrade him correctly in Dawn of War II: Retribution.
[...] Some Astartes reactors need recharge every few days if they degraded (Chaos), while others are fully working miniature fusion reactors. We are fumbling with fusion, who says they didn't perfect it in 28 000 years?
So why is it so difficult to admit that we can also develop technology that withstands the weight of a Titan?
It can withstand the weight of a Titan cause armour is harder than the ground below it, so Titan didn't actually stand on him but pushed him into the ground if I am not mistaken. But that is just pressure, while somebody jumping around would have to contend with force of motion. Practically stopping in an instant without a way to slow him down (like a jump pack) would almost certainly end up with injuries. Maybe internal stabilizers are too good for that? I doubt it, but even if it is so that jump looks bad.
Terminators regularly shrug off buildings falling on them too I mean, we're investing a lot of effort into explaining how a Terminator could reasonable survive a Titan standing on him.
Could you not then understand why other people might be able to invest a similar amount of effort into Gabriel's movements (even if the actual reason is gameplay-related, and not lore-related)? We all have things that we're able to explain.
Not a direct reply to anything but can we agree that the "rule of cool" only goes so far in 40k? The universe still has to be believable and realistic when it is grounded in its own laws and rules . Sure, no one believes that the 40k universe exists (stupid thing to say and pointless but believe me, I've seen people ridiculed for believing the 40k universe exists even when they didn't and were just trying to make an interesting point) however it is believable that based on its laws of physics and rules a plasma weapon may well exist. Or Space Marine armour. Or the armour plating of a Land Raider. Or a bolter. It is reasonable to assume all these things would work given the universe (again, not in our universe but in the 40k universe). That is how the universe is made interesting - it is believable and realistic given the setting it is in and so it is more exciting and compelling. Some writers do this better than others of course but in general it holds true.
For example it would be lame and boring (though hilarious, for a short while) if absolutely anything at any point could happen in the 40k universe:
A Space Marine grows bunny ears giving him powerful battle bonuses against the Eldar.
The Necron guns suddenly start shooting magical rainbows against their enemies that emit hip hop music when they fire.
Orks start diplomatic relations with the Imperium and Tyranids at the same time and the three races make a happy pact to start a massive cleaning corporation so that the abode of ever Space Marine, Nob and Tyranid Warrior is polished and respecatable, giving Orks their new war cry "CLEANILINEZ IZ NEX TO GODLINEZ!!!!!".
I really could go on and I'm being pretty tame here.
My point is, just because something seems cool doesn't mean it has to or even is allowed to happen. Cool is subjective. The franchise needs a bit more respect than that.
Good fantasy universes exist because they have rules and limitations, often being quite strict about them which gives interesting conflicts. Lord of the Rings wouldn't be half as good if hobbits suddenly grew massive blades from their hands, became bloodthirsty. raised a huge army and conquered Mordor because COOL. Rules and restraints are important, very important.
It is up to your judgement if Gabriel doing a huge jump and flip is within the rules and constraints of the universe. If it is believable. Frankly, for me it isn't really that believable (possible maybe but extremely unlikely) and as far as cool is concerned, for me it is decidedly uncool.
@Xerith said:
This makes no sense to me honestly, if you are inside a box with no physical contact with the box except your feet, you will not get any force of the motion from the impact from the box. If the box collapses, then yes, you must support it, but as long as the box around can withstand the forces, you inside should not have to worry about it.
Something has to take the transference of force of the impact, it can't just disappear into the air and gets passed along the chain.
It's why cars have crumple zones to protect the passengers rather than being rigid, as that way the car absorbs much of that impact forces instead of passing it onto the passengers fully. If the car remained rigid then the passengers would be like eggs in a safe throw against a wall at high speed.
This is what I was talking about earlier Aren73. 40k really does not have it's own internal rules that it follows, it is ridiculously inconsistent and GW has made it clear that they have no intention of fixing that aspect. They simply refer to the lore as being in the same vein as myths and legends, where nobody actually knows what is real and what is made up. That not only allows them to write pretty much whatever they want but it also enables an aspect that already had a very strong presence in the 40k community, headcanon. Most 40k fans that I know cherry-pick their lore to create their own personal version of 40k, and in a way they have to because there are so many contradicting sources.
If you don't like the acrobatics, that's perfectly fine. It is not however, in any conceivable way, disrespectful to the franchise.
@Orblivion - if the 40k lore "does not have it's own internal rules that it follows" then tell me why can't the Imperium, Orks and Tyranids set up a massive, galactic house cleaning corporation that I mentioned earlier?
Or maybe you think that it does fit in the universe since it has no internal rules that it follows?
I'd love to hear how it fits in the universe.
(Sorry if that sounds aggressive, it's not, I just vehemently disagree that it hasn't got any laws, they're there if sometimes only by implication)
Alright, think of this way then. The one rule of 40k is that whatever GW wants, works. If what GW writes today completely contradicts what they wrote yesterday, "oh well" is their go to response.
Here's another way of looking at it, from a player / consumer perspective:
If a Space Marine suddenly grows bunny ears, there is no existing precedent for this kind of genetic mutation. If it isn't accompanied by expected in-universe reactions (the Chapter being declared Hereticus, for example), and Games Workshop force this through, at a guess a lot of people would be unhappy. But it would still be the (new) lore.
If Relic, or any other third party did this, a lot of people would be unhappy, and Games Workshop would probably be unhappy. Thus making it actually disrespectful, because that descriptor only applies when offending the creator and / or holder of the (40k) IP.
You're attempting an argument to absurdity; you're asking "if this thing you (personally) consider over the top is allowed, does this mean that is therefore fine". This is unfair, because nobody was ever supporting such a radical addition to the 40k lore. We're discussing the specific physics of a superhuman in armour powered by the Emperor's divinity and nuclear fusion (or maybe that's a Dreadnought core, I forget). The "right answer" is a lot harder to find than discussing what would happen if a Chapter of Space Marines suddenly grew animal body parts
@Orblivion - But firstly GW needs to cater to the fans otherwise they WILL leave the hobby or just play previous editions and ignore the new lore, secondly because of that one rule other rules spawn
@Gorb - You are making a strawman argument. You are equating my argument to: "If Gabe can jump then Space Marines can grow bunny ears". That's dishonest intellectually and it is not my argument. My argument is that if the universe has no laws whatsoever then Space Marines growing bunny ears is just as likely as anything else because there are no laws to forbid it. That follows logically, as does pretty much anything else because anything is possible and likely in a universe with no laws or rules.
All I am doing is pointing out that saying the universe has no laws or rules is absurd.
I am not making an argument that Gabe jumping is objectively absurd. Subjectively I don't like it, but that's my opinion.
However I can't not respond when people say that the universe has no laws or rules, it's a claim I am strongly opposed to.
Well, that's because I thought that was the argument you were making. And I believe you still are, in a way.
The argument has been reframed around the notion that 40k has no laws or rules. And arguably, this is true. It has no consistent rules, which I think was in @Orblivion's original wording and certainly has been mentioned by various posters every time this topic crops up. The rules are most definitely not consistent. Even the "core" lore, the stuff mentioned directly in rulebooks and Codices, is changed each new generation.
You yourself said that "the rule of cool only goes so far". I'm not misquoting you there, but correct me at will.
And that sentence, that admission right there, is all people seem to be aiming at (in my opinion). Certainly it's all I'm aiming at. The rule of cool absolutely has limits, and for the sake of the topic ("Gabriel the Acrobat Theories") it's being argued that the rule of cool holds for him (and his animations). People can disagree, and absolutely do in a lot of cases.
But that's how we got here. You bringing up extreme examples to try and break the "rule of cool" when the "rule of cool" was never used to justify such extreme examples isn't fair. There's no need to call me disingenuous or any other synonym thereof. If anything, you've done this by mistake and I'm pointing out how you're coming across. Nobody was ever suggesting that the rule of cool was so ironclad that it could be used to justify bunny ears on Space Marines. You came up with that example. You crafted it. The burden of its explanation falls, unfortunately, on you.
@Gorb - Again, my apologies if I come across as aggressive. I honestly do not care that much about Gabriel's acrobatics and don't really want to make much of an argument around them or a fuss about them. I don't like them, not from much of a logical perspective as I have indeed been converted to thinking that yes, they are possible in the 40k universe but rather I don't like them because the animation, frankly, looks silly to me and not in keeping with a grimdark theme or indeed the theme and feel of Space Marines. I will reiterate - this is my opinion and not really an argument. It's subjective but I don't have an objective reason to say they should be removed.
I will underline - I am not making an argument, currently, for the Gabriel acrobatic animation not fitting in the lore.
Now for my real argument - there are laws and rules in the Warhammer 40k universe. Just because the laws change from time to time doesn't mean that they don't exist. In fact, if the rules and laws change that is an admission that there were rules and laws to begin with and there are new ones now.
@Orblivion stated (direct quote): "40k really does not have it's own internal rules that it follows" - this is the statement that I disagreed with. I don't believe it is out of context as his statement that "it (40k) is ridiculously inconsistent" is a separate point. I understood his post to read, essentially: 40k has no laws that it follows and it is also inconsistent. If that's not what Orblivion meant then I'm sorry, my mistake.
All I am saying is that currently, 40k has laws that it does follow. It also has supposed laws it doesn't follow. The laws and rules also change very frequently yet there are always laws there. The sum of the newest set of lore and books as well as anything published earlier that does not contradict the current set of lore make up the laws and rules. The newest publication from GW in a rulebook or codex or supplement directly overwrites anything previously published that contradicts it, therefore you always will have laws and rules as if there is a clash the newest publication is always correct. Black library novels then support the GW lore but they are always an inferior source and considered invalid should they contradict the current lore.
Is that inconsistent over a long period of time? Sure, it is. Yet there are still laws and rules that as of the making of this game are in effect and cannot be breached.
If every piece of lore is added then yes 40k is a mess however that's why only the most recent and non contradictory lore is in effect, the rest is as good as fan-fiction.
In summary, my point has only been that 40k has some laws and rules that have to be kept, as of the current state of the lore. I thought this was something that we could all agree on and quickly move over.
As a side note - the rule of cool existing and there not being any rules don't have to follow from one another. The rule of cool does exist though I believe it is limited. But the rule of cool does not mean Space Marines with bunny ears. Rather the lack of any rules lead to the bunnies. So you see I was never trying to "break the "rule of cool"" as you say, it cannot be broken by bunny ears because to someone somewhere bunny ears are cool. No, rather I was reinforcing the point that having no rules of any kind is absurd, something I feel the argument to absurdity can be freely and fairly used to represent.
I think that is something we all agree on, the rules no matter how inconsistent exist. My argument and indeed GW's argument is that the most recent rules apply.
GW has never made an argument, or statement, on the order of canonicity, as far as I'm aware. The only statement about application of rules is with regards to the Tabletop statistics themselves. That said if there's a new source on that front, I'm happy to know about it. Used to frustrate the local staff at two of the stores I used to go to, because you'd have staff-on-staff arguments about what was valid when. And this was way back in the early days of 3ed!
But beyond that, a lot of people don't believe in 40k's consistency precisely because it can change so dramatically over time. You can select the non-contradictory pieces of lore to build a modern intepretation of the universe but that doesn't change the fact that in the next Codex one faction might be irrevocably changed. I don't mind that personally, I think it keeps it fresh (and I don't exactly go to 40k for well-written science fiction, haha. Some Black Library authors are the exception to this, though). So people get disheartened when this cyclic development of lore breaks something that for them was The Sense of It.
So what you call the "core" rules and laws that keep 40k in check might not be the core rules for other people. They might see them as not strictly "rules", because they're already getting used to the changes that are around the corner in the next edition.
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs to have some kind of founding in something.
Even if you don't think that certain things are "rules" then there's still that big problem with this whole acrobatic air flipping while twirling a hammer terminator thing. As there's zero tabletop rules, codex entries or even silly junky novels with some kind of precedent for it, it can't really be considered on the same level as a "contradiction" or "interpretation" issue.
It's basically on the same level as making up space marines fill their armor with bread and eat it after the battle. As it's completely unfounded in anything that space marines enjoy post battle body sandwiches, even if there isn't any evidence it doesn't happen specifically still doesn't grant it a case for being a thing. As there's no support for it anyway it's still at step zero.
@Misery said:
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs to have some kind of founding in something.
Even if you don't think that certain things are "rules" then there's still that big problem with this whole acrobatic air flipping while twirling a hammer terminator thing. As there's zero tabletop rules, codex entries or even silly junky novels with some kind of precedent for it, it can't really be considered on the same level as a "contradiction" or "interpretation" issue.
It's basically on the same level as making up space marines fill their armor with bread and eat it after the battle. As it's completely unfounded in anything that space marines enjoy post battle body sandwiches, even if there isn't any evidence it doesn't happen specifically still doesn't grant it a case for being a thing. As there's no support for it anyway it's still at step zero.
I tried making the same argument fam where in I asked for examples of the rules relating to main characters in Fluff being represented accurately/inaccurate in the table top, its just a difference of opinion where in we think Games Workshop tries to accurately represent table top characters as close to there fluff representations as possible. Still every permutation cannot be accounted for and every heroic feat cant be represented in the rules but that dosen't mean Relic should have carte blanch when there is no precedence in the fluff for something as stupid as the flips he does in said suit. I mentioned anti grav devices or jet packs as a compromise if they want to keep the ability in and I hope they consider it, because come on there are cases where Space Marines in Terminator armor fall over and cant get themselves up where they need help from Servitors or other Space Marines to help them upright how the ++heresy redacted++ is he able to flip in the same or similar armor even if it is master crafted from the dark ages of technology.
@Misery said:
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs to have some kind of founding in something.
Even if you don't think that certain things are "rules" then there's still that big problem with this whole acrobatic air flipping while twirling a hammer terminator thing. As there's zero tabletop rules, codex entries or even silly junky novels with some kind of precedent for it, it can't really be considered on the same level as a "contradiction" or "interpretation" issue.
It's basically on the same level as making up space marines fill their armor with bread and eat it after the battle. As it's completely unfounded in anything that space marines enjoy post battle body sandwiches, even if there isn't any evidence it doesn't happen specifically still doesn't grant it a case for being a thing. As there's no support for it anyway it's still at step zero.
A Space Marine in nuclear-powered armour making a big jump in a video game is on a completely different level to a Space Marine filling their armour with bread.
That's a very silly comparison. If that's the level we've dropped to here, it's a bit disappointing. Recognise your opinion, own it, and respect other peoples' right to disagree.
@Gorb said:
A Space Marine in nuclear-powered armour making a big jump in a video game is on a completely different level to a Space Marine filling their armour with bread.
That's a very silly comparison. If that's the level we've dropped to here, it's a bit disappointing. Recognise your opinion, own it, and respect other peoples' right to disagree.
You're missing the point of the example and focusing on the wrong thing again. Both the bread and the leaping terminator have no basis in any rule, codex or novel, so are about equal, both being unsourced opinions about silly things.
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs some kind of basis or precedent in something from which it's interpreted or contradictory to, which it doesn't seem to have anywhere.
Except we're retreading really, really old ground here. There is no evidence that Chapter Masters in special Terminator armour can't do what Gabriel does. It can't be proven either way. Which brings us back to peoples' individual interpretations of the 40k universe, and how you presume yours to somehow be more correct.
But your existing arguments of physics and how the Space Marine would be damaged have been abandoned, so it's hard to understand your point as you keep changing it. There is proof that supports Terminators surviving excessive amounts of physical trauma that should otherwise destroy them (even inside the armour). Ergo, from the angle of biology and body-related physics, it's technically possible.
Which means the lore-based argument solely rests upon whether or not the armour itself is capable of it. Which we have no way of knowing. There aren't many Chapter Masters with special Terminator Armour with written accounts of their physical feats (most accounts of Calgar tend to focus on his fists, for example).
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Gorb
I have been saying Relic have taken liberties with the lore (with GW's approval) since threads like this started
As for the Terminator, the occupant was perfectly fine after being stepped on by a Titan. A Space Wolf, if I'm remembering my core rulebooks right; it was to do with the Crux Terminatus and the defensive shield it generated (represented by the Invulnerable save in Tabletop).
And I'm really confused as to why you would think Relic had any say in the novel commission to a third-party author published by someone affiliated with Games Workshop, and not Relic. It seems to me that you're trying to pin blame where none exists.
Misery
Again, it doesn't matter if the suit survived, all the shielding wouldn't stop the momentum on the body being stopped by the ground. He'd have some serious groin bruising at the very least. If Terminators could just stop momentum like that they'd just drop out the backs of aircraft like assault marines do.
You're focusing on the wrong thing here, but you said you know Relic don't exactly have a good history of accuracy, hopefully you understand the point. GW not saying anything about Relic's lack of knowing basic things doesn't mean much, they generally have fairly low standards for non official things. Like basically every other game ever and the novels.
Xerith
Just a minor question, why does it matter so much that they are in a metal box if the box is capable of not deforming on impact, since as long as density is high enough to ignore air resistance weight should not matter. So as long as the armour does not collapse on the marine inside, he 'only' needs to be able to withstand the impact of his own body. Also, only another novel, but in a Ciaphas Cain novel, The Emperor's Finest there is a mention of a terminator simply dropping down to support/save Cain.
Mr_Ruin
Please never again mention C. S. Goto's books. Those things are absolutely heretical. Multilazers on everything, Biel tan and Blood Ravens bro-ing around. Blood Ravens having a miniature Astronomican on Omnis Arcanum, etc. Those are some of the worst books ever printed by Black Library and although they have a lot of bad books, those are the absolute worst. Even Furious Abyss and Descent of Angels were better.
Silk
You guys are discussing the physics of an universe where tanks are less armoured than today's tanks, where people regularly travel aboard flying cathedrals through Hell because it's (most of the time) faster than light, and hulking, where acid-spitting guys with redundants bio-engineered organs wear armours powered by a nuclear reactor in their backpack.
If GW doesn't consider the physics and the "believability" of its own universe to be that important, how can you expect Relic to do so?
40k runs on rule of cool. It has always been the case, and hopefuly it will always be.
edub
So tempted to mention the whole "the Ultramarines in Winter Assault were Alpha Legion in disguise" bit...
Misery
The force of the motion has to go somewhere. If the metal box doesn't absorb the impact by crumpling then it passes on the forces to whatever was inside it fully. Falling from about 20m in height constantly would destroy his leg muscles and ligaments pretty quickly, even if he was genetically altered.
You shouldn't ever rely on novels as they typically say basically everything silly ever. They aren't generally considered a proper source of anything but just in universe stories about events that might not have actually happened. If they did they are told in an dramatized way that more than likely stretches the truth for dramatic impact rather than a "realistic" retelling.
Oh the other thing the novels are a source of are amusing things that a certain author wrote.
All of those examples are consistent to the universe's own rules however so make in universe sense. As assault marines slow their own impact it's kind of safe to assume even lighter Space Marines don't like taking drops full speed onto their legs. So it's kind of safe to assume that instead of all jump pack users wishing to sound light on their feet that they do so for some kind of safety need.
Misery
Maybe he can be convinced to make a novel for the special edition of DoW III?
Mr_Ruin
Oh, forgot about that part -.- . Although he was the first to start with Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, (heresy era marines in red guarding a world and Eldar seeing no difference between the two ten thousand years later - although Eldars are massive di**s so maybe all Astartes are interchangable to them) so even he got something right.
Warhammer works on rule of cool and some things are not explainable. But the rest of the things are. Emperor envisaged SM's for close quarters and long battles, something a regular human cannot do (ADB - Betrayer). That longevity of battles and lethality of close combat are reasons for so much of their ''improvements''.
Some Astartes reactors need recharge every few days if they degraded (Chaos), while others are fully working miniature fusion reactors. We are fumbling with fusion, who says they didn't perfect it in 28 000 years? Although probably needs a lot of knowledge and resources to create so it is mostly used for top notch war machines. Like Astartes warplate. And is hard to succesfully maintain, so Chaos Marines in Black Crusade rulebook can choose what parts of their armour are still working.
Ships look like cathedrals to ward off daemons. Daemons are all about symbolism - being easier to kill with fire and swords than modern weaponry cause it is similar to how they were summoned (Dan Abnett - Know no Fear)
But somersaulting in Tactical Dreadnought armour is a bit of a strech. And if we are going with rule of cool, to me it doesn't look cool, it looks childish. If someone thinks differently, ok. And isn't supported by anything written or shown before. If they can jump like that why are they even giving them teleporters? Just let them drop from Thunderhawks. Less usage of temperamental tech which could jam you into a mountain.
Silk
Yet the example of the Terminator armour withstanding a Titan's stomp, which is from a similar source, is somehow inconsistant with the universe and/or physics.
What if the entirety of the kinetic energy was (somehow, by the magic of the mighty bullshitium) dissipated in heat and used to deform the ground around the point of impact? What if the defensive shield produced by the Crux Terminatus absorbed most of it?
Yes, but the codices are considered this way too. GW people basically said "ignore everything you don't like, as long as you have fun with your headcanon".
Thank you for conceding on this point.
So why is it so difficult to admit that we can also develop technology that withstands the weight of a Titan?
Yes, but apparently it looked cool to Relic's people.
Frankly, it doesn't look so cool to me either: I would have prefered something I recognized from previous sources, like a good'ol'fashion teleportation. My idea is just that if you can find a way to explain it with which you're happy, then that's it - because your headcanon is as valuable as your neighbour's, and 40k is all headcanons conflicting with each other (unfortunately) due to the way GW manages their IP.
Why wouldn't they be able to do both?
Xerith
This makes no sense to me honestly, if you are inside a box with no physical contact with the box except your feet, you will not get any force of the motion from the impact from the box. If the box collapses, then yes, you must support it, but as long as the box around can withstand the forces, you inside should not have to worry about it.
Nautiloidor
But....but....but that's cool!
Mr_Ruin
It can withstand the weight of a Titan cause armour is harder than the ground below it, so Titan didn't actually stand on him but pushed him into the ground if I am not mistaken. But that is just pressure, while somebody jumping around would have to contend with force of motion. Practically stopping in an instant without a way to slow him down (like a jump pack) would almost certainly end up with injuries. Maybe internal stabilizers are too good for that? I doubt it, but even if it is so that jump looks bad.
Gorb
Terminators regularly shrug off buildings falling on them too
I mean, we're investing a lot of effort into explaining how a Terminator could reasonable survive a Titan standing on him.
Could you not then understand why other people might be able to invest a similar amount of effort into Gabriel's movements (even if the actual reason is gameplay-related, and not lore-related)? We all have things that we're able to explain.
GeneralSkull
shame to this disign to my chapter master
Aren73
Not a direct reply to anything but can we agree that the "rule of cool" only goes so far in 40k? The universe still has to be believable and realistic when it is grounded in its own laws and rules . Sure, no one believes that the 40k universe exists (stupid thing to say and pointless but believe me, I've seen people ridiculed for believing the 40k universe exists even when they didn't and were just trying to make an interesting point) however it is believable that based on its laws of physics and rules a plasma weapon may well exist. Or Space Marine armour. Or the armour plating of a Land Raider. Or a bolter. It is reasonable to assume all these things would work given the universe (again, not in our universe but in the 40k universe). That is how the universe is made interesting - it is believable and realistic given the setting it is in and so it is more exciting and compelling. Some writers do this better than others of course but in general it holds true.
For example it would be lame and boring (though hilarious, for a short while) if absolutely anything at any point could happen in the 40k universe:
A Space Marine grows bunny ears giving him powerful battle bonuses against the Eldar.
The Necron guns suddenly start shooting magical rainbows against their enemies that emit hip hop music when they fire.
Orks start diplomatic relations with the Imperium and Tyranids at the same time and the three races make a happy pact to start a massive cleaning corporation so that the abode of ever Space Marine, Nob and Tyranid Warrior is polished and respecatable, giving Orks their new war cry "CLEANILINEZ IZ NEX TO GODLINEZ!!!!!".
I really could go on and I'm being pretty tame here.
My point is, just because something seems cool doesn't mean it has to or even is allowed to happen. Cool is subjective. The franchise needs a bit more respect than that.
Good fantasy universes exist because they have rules and limitations, often being quite strict about them which gives interesting conflicts. Lord of the Rings wouldn't be half as good if hobbits suddenly grew massive blades from their hands, became bloodthirsty. raised a huge army and conquered Mordor because COOL. Rules and restraints are important, very important.
It is up to your judgement if Gabriel doing a huge jump and flip is within the rules and constraints of the universe. If it is believable. Frankly, for me it isn't really that believable (possible maybe but extremely unlikely) and as far as cool is concerned, for me it is decidedly uncool.
Misery
Something has to take the transference of force of the impact, it can't just disappear into the air and gets passed along the chain.
It's why cars have crumple zones to protect the passengers rather than being rigid, as that way the car absorbs much of that impact forces instead of passing it onto the passengers fully. If the car remained rigid then the passengers would be like eggs in a safe throw against a wall at high speed.
Orblivion
This is what I was talking about earlier Aren73. 40k really does not have it's own internal rules that it follows, it is ridiculously inconsistent and GW has made it clear that they have no intention of fixing that aspect. They simply refer to the lore as being in the same vein as myths and legends, where nobody actually knows what is real and what is made up. That not only allows them to write pretty much whatever they want but it also enables an aspect that already had a very strong presence in the 40k community, headcanon. Most 40k fans that I know cherry-pick their lore to create their own personal version of 40k, and in a way they have to because there are so many contradicting sources.
If you don't like the acrobatics, that's perfectly fine. It is not however, in any conceivable way, disrespectful to the franchise.
Aren73
@Orblivion - if the 40k lore "does not have it's own internal rules that it follows" then tell me why can't the Imperium, Orks and Tyranids set up a massive, galactic house cleaning corporation that I mentioned earlier?
Or maybe you think that it does fit in the universe since it has no internal rules that it follows?
I'd love to hear how it fits in the universe.
(Sorry if that sounds aggressive, it's not, I just vehemently disagree that it hasn't got any laws, they're there if sometimes only by implication)
Orblivion
Alright, think of this way then. The one rule of 40k is that whatever GW wants, works. If what GW writes today completely contradicts what they wrote yesterday, "oh well" is their go to response.
Gorb
Here's another way of looking at it, from a player / consumer perspective:
If a Space Marine suddenly grows bunny ears, there is no existing precedent for this kind of genetic mutation. If it isn't accompanied by expected in-universe reactions (the Chapter being declared Hereticus, for example), and Games Workshop force this through, at a guess a lot of people would be unhappy. But it would still be the (new) lore.
If Relic, or any other third party did this, a lot of people would be unhappy, and Games Workshop would probably be unhappy. Thus making it actually disrespectful, because that descriptor only applies when offending the creator and / or holder of the (40k) IP.
You're attempting an argument to absurdity; you're asking "if this thing you (personally) consider over the top is allowed, does this mean that is therefore fine". This is unfair, because nobody was ever supporting such a radical addition to the 40k lore. We're discussing the specific physics of a superhuman in armour powered by the Emperor's divinity and nuclear fusion (or maybe that's a Dreadnought core, I forget). The "right answer" is a lot harder to find than discussing what would happen if a Chapter of Space Marines suddenly grew animal body parts
Aren73
@Orblivion - But firstly GW needs to cater to the fans otherwise they WILL leave the hobby or just play previous editions and ignore the new lore, secondly because of that one rule other rules spawn
@Gorb - You are making a strawman argument. You are equating my argument to: "If Gabe can jump then Space Marines can grow bunny ears". That's dishonest intellectually and it is not my argument. My argument is that if the universe has no laws whatsoever then Space Marines growing bunny ears is just as likely as anything else because there are no laws to forbid it. That follows logically, as does pretty much anything else because anything is possible and likely in a universe with no laws or rules.
All I am doing is pointing out that saying the universe has no laws or rules is absurd.
I am not making an argument that Gabe jumping is objectively absurd. Subjectively I don't like it, but that's my opinion.
However I can't not respond when people say that the universe has no laws or rules, it's a claim I am strongly opposed to.
Gorb
Well, that's because I thought that was the argument you were making. And I believe you still are, in a way.
The argument has been reframed around the notion that 40k has no laws or rules. And arguably, this is true. It has no consistent rules, which I think was in @Orblivion's original wording and certainly has been mentioned by various posters every time this topic crops up. The rules are most definitely not consistent. Even the "core" lore, the stuff mentioned directly in rulebooks and Codices, is changed each new generation.
You yourself said that "the rule of cool only goes so far". I'm not misquoting you there, but correct me at will.
And that sentence, that admission right there, is all people seem to be aiming at (in my opinion). Certainly it's all I'm aiming at. The rule of cool absolutely has limits, and for the sake of the topic ("Gabriel the Acrobat Theories") it's being argued that the rule of cool holds for him (and his animations). People can disagree, and absolutely do in a lot of cases.
But that's how we got here. You bringing up extreme examples to try and break the "rule of cool" when the "rule of cool" was never used to justify such extreme examples isn't fair. There's no need to call me disingenuous or any other synonym thereof. If anything, you've done this by mistake and I'm pointing out how you're coming across. Nobody was ever suggesting that the rule of cool was so ironclad that it could be used to justify bunny ears on Space Marines. You came up with that example. You crafted it. The burden of its explanation falls, unfortunately, on you.
Aren73
@Gorb - Again, my apologies if I come across as aggressive. I honestly do not care that much about Gabriel's acrobatics and don't really want to make much of an argument around them or a fuss about them. I don't like them, not from much of a logical perspective as I have indeed been converted to thinking that yes, they are possible in the 40k universe but rather I don't like them because the animation, frankly, looks silly to me and not in keeping with a grimdark theme or indeed the theme and feel of Space Marines. I will reiterate - this is my opinion and not really an argument. It's subjective but I don't have an objective reason to say they should be removed.
I will underline - I am not making an argument, currently, for the Gabriel acrobatic animation not fitting in the lore.
Now for my real argument - there are laws and rules in the Warhammer 40k universe. Just because the laws change from time to time doesn't mean that they don't exist. In fact, if the rules and laws change that is an admission that there were rules and laws to begin with and there are new ones now.
@Orblivion stated (direct quote): "40k really does not have it's own internal rules that it follows" - this is the statement that I disagreed with. I don't believe it is out of context as his statement that "it (40k) is ridiculously inconsistent" is a separate point. I understood his post to read, essentially: 40k has no laws that it follows and it is also inconsistent. If that's not what Orblivion meant then I'm sorry, my mistake.
All I am saying is that currently, 40k has laws that it does follow. It also has supposed laws it doesn't follow. The laws and rules also change very frequently yet there are always laws there. The sum of the newest set of lore and books as well as anything published earlier that does not contradict the current set of lore make up the laws and rules. The newest publication from GW in a rulebook or codex or supplement directly overwrites anything previously published that contradicts it, therefore you always will have laws and rules as if there is a clash the newest publication is always correct. Black library novels then support the GW lore but they are always an inferior source and considered invalid should they contradict the current lore.
Is that inconsistent over a long period of time? Sure, it is. Yet there are still laws and rules that as of the making of this game are in effect and cannot be breached.
If every piece of lore is added then yes 40k is a mess however that's why only the most recent and non contradictory lore is in effect, the rest is as good as fan-fiction.
In summary, my point has only been that 40k has some laws and rules that have to be kept, as of the current state of the lore. I thought this was something that we could all agree on and quickly move over.
As a side note - the rule of cool existing and there not being any rules don't have to follow from one another. The rule of cool does exist though I believe it is limited. But the rule of cool does not mean Space Marines with bunny ears. Rather the lack of any rules lead to the bunnies. So you see I was never trying to "break the "rule of cool"" as you say, it cannot be broken by bunny ears because to someone somewhere bunny ears are cool. No, rather I was reinforcing the point that having no rules of any kind is absurd, something I feel the argument to absurdity can be freely and fairly used to represent.
I think that is something we all agree on, the rules no matter how inconsistent exist. My argument and indeed GW's argument is that the most recent rules apply.
Gorb
GW has never made an argument, or statement, on the order of canonicity, as far as I'm aware. The only statement about application of rules is with regards to the Tabletop statistics themselves. That said if there's a new source on that front, I'm happy to know about it. Used to frustrate the local staff at two of the stores I used to go to, because you'd have staff-on-staff arguments about what was valid when. And this was way back in the early days of 3ed!
But beyond that, a lot of people don't believe in 40k's consistency precisely because it can change so dramatically over time. You can select the non-contradictory pieces of lore to build a modern intepretation of the universe but that doesn't change the fact that in the next Codex one faction might be irrevocably changed. I don't mind that personally, I think it keeps it fresh (and I don't exactly go to 40k for well-written science fiction, haha. Some Black Library authors are the exception to this, though). So people get disheartened when this cyclic development of lore breaks something that for them was The Sense of It.
So what you call the "core" rules and laws that keep 40k in check might not be the core rules for other people. They might see them as not strictly "rules", because they're already getting used to the changes that are around the corner in the next edition.
Misery
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs to have some kind of founding in something.
Even if you don't think that certain things are "rules" then there's still that big problem with this whole acrobatic air flipping while twirling a hammer terminator thing. As there's zero tabletop rules, codex entries or even silly junky novels with some kind of precedent for it, it can't really be considered on the same level as a "contradiction" or "interpretation" issue.
It's basically on the same level as making up space marines fill their armor with bread and eat it after the battle. As it's completely unfounded in anything that space marines enjoy post battle body sandwiches, even if there isn't any evidence it doesn't happen specifically still doesn't grant it a case for being a thing. As there's no support for it anyway it's still at step zero.
AlternativeIV
I tried making the same argument fam where in I asked for examples of the rules relating to main characters in Fluff being represented accurately/inaccurate in the table top, its just a difference of opinion where in we think Games Workshop tries to accurately represent table top characters as close to there fluff representations as possible. Still every permutation cannot be accounted for and every heroic feat cant be represented in the rules but that dosen't mean Relic should have carte blanch when there is no precedence in the fluff for something as stupid as the flips he does in said suit. I mentioned anti grav devices or jet packs as a compromise if they want to keep the ability in and I hope they consider it, because come on there are cases where Space Marines in Terminator armor fall over and cant get themselves up where they need help from Servitors or other Space Marines to help them upright how the ++heresy redacted++ is he able to flip in the same or similar armor even if it is master crafted from the dark ages of technology.
Gorb
A Space Marine in nuclear-powered armour making a big jump in a video game is on a completely different level to a Space Marine filling their armour with bread.
That's a very silly comparison. If that's the level we've dropped to here, it's a bit disappointing. Recognise your opinion, own it, and respect other peoples' right to disagree.
Misery
You're missing the point of the example and focusing on the wrong thing again. Both the bread and the leaping terminator have no basis in any rule, codex or novel, so are about equal, both being unsourced opinions about silly things.
For it to be a contradiction or interpretation issue it needs some kind of basis or precedent in something from which it's interpreted or contradictory to, which it doesn't seem to have anywhere.
Gorb
Except we're retreading really, really old ground here. There is no evidence that Chapter Masters in special Terminator armour can't do what Gabriel does. It can't be proven either way. Which brings us back to peoples' individual interpretations of the 40k universe, and how you presume yours to somehow be more correct.
But your existing arguments of physics and how the Space Marine would be damaged have been abandoned, so it's hard to understand your point as you keep changing it. There is proof that supports Terminators surviving excessive amounts of physical trauma that should otherwise destroy them (even inside the armour). Ergo, from the angle of biology and body-related physics, it's technically possible.
Which means the lore-based argument solely rests upon whether or not the armour itself is capable of it. Which we have no way of knowing. There aren't many Chapter Masters with special Terminator Armour with written accounts of their physical feats (most accounts of Calgar tend to focus on his fists, for example).