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Limiting Elite Units
AlternativeIV
As seen in this video at the current time stamp 
it seems as though Relic have decided to limit "Elite" selection to a pre game strategy and not as it was before being a tech choice in game like in previous titles. I am extremely disheartened by said choice limiting my ability to create units in game for reasons of "dynamic gameplay" and "strategy". It just feels like a negative player experience not allowing you to play with all the toys of your race at hand, I want to create an army with Terminators an Imperial Knight a Chapter Master and a Librarian and now Im limited to 3 not to mention the other units they are leaving out with said limitations. My opinion maybe anecdotal but i dont believe this works in Dawn of War it just feels wrong to limit unit selection at a pick screen for the sake of some as said pre game strategy? Maybe Relic is going for some Command and Conquer Generals type of gameplay but that dosent fit thematically in universe. As said I think this is another mistake made by Relic overlooked by the community like the cover system or morale but what do you guys think? Do you believe that unit choice as it relates to "Elites" should be limited to a pre game pick or should they be all allowed and have the only restricting factors be requisition and tech?
Comments
Plattfish
Based on the gameplay videos, they balanced this game around the super units, not the creeps. Also, that's literally a core gameplay aspect of DOWIII, so there is approximately zero percent chance of it changing before release.
The cynic in me says that this decision was made additionally to allow for easier micro-transactions in the future, with both hero skins, and god forbid, entirely new heroes being sold as DLC.
AlternativeIV
I understand that its more than likely not going to change but limiting unit choice to a pre game pick screen feels so fuckking bad as a mechanic in rts as it relates to gameplay. Also I would understand if it was maybe just named character hero units but ++heresy redacted++ Terminators were and always will be core in every Marine army. This feels as though it limits how influential base building and teching would be in game with these passive abilities chosen pre game and everything focusing around the Hero units and not the army itself. When I see this gameplay I kind of find myself going back to my Warcraft 3 days playing Angel Arena rofl.
vindicarex
I think this follows the DoW2/CoH2 style much more closely. In both, you go in with a pre-selected commander (or choice of doctrines) that shape the key aspects of your play.
In fact, I really like what I see here - there are a lot of interesting strategy/balance implications from the passive buffs from elites, some elites countering others - in fact, we're likely to see some form of "meta" picks when the game gets rolling. By the looks of the layout they had, it seems readily accessible for additional elites and doctrines, meaning the number of possible choices for each army to pick is potentially limitless. Regardless, the layout definitely suggest an expansive roster of some sort.
Each game will have a different variety of threats for you to face down, and so will feel a bit different for each army load-out. This design looks like a good mix of army-strategy pre-selection, but having it change only the details of your race, fits nicely with an RTS: each game will be fundamentally the same but play a bit different. This is what Relic, and 40k, is all about.
I think this also helps capture the essence of 40k/DoW - army customization. It not only fits well with the 40k theme, but also from a gameplay stance of giving the player more unique way to play the game. While this does increase the difficulty in balancing the game, I think the foundation is sound.
Arrevax
I do hope Relic rethinks elite unit limits and provides a way around them, somehow.
I'd prefer Company of Heroes 2 style army doctrines (other than certain units being unavailable without a particular doctrine). I definitely understand what OP means by saying that it's undesirable to not have all parts of your chosen race available during a match. It's a cheap way to broaden the possibilities of the metagame, but that means that some units will be even less used than they would have been if all units were available (some elite units will never be chosen due to being less competitively viable or completely unviable).
It's a bad sign that may indicate Sega's intention to DLC the crap out of DoW III. It's kind of inevitable, but I do wish they'd try to avoid impacting gameplay (outside of releasing major expansions).
Hopefully, we'll get a true Annihilation mode with the option to allow all Elite units at once later on.
vindicarex
That "DLC the crap out of DoW III" is exactly what it needs to see the massive amount of content a 40k game needs (all the units and races...).
AlternativeIV
How does limiting tactical choices and unit variety increase the uniqueness of the game in comparison to having all Elites at hand in a game and being able to use them in any permutation in game? Not even mentioning the loading screen where all your tactical choices concerning the Elites are revealed to the opposing team giving them all the details about your probable strategy. I dont know about you but I dont believe I have played an rts where in you are limited to unit decisions on the pick screen other than Age of Empires, Empire Earth, and Command and Conquer Generals but every single one of those had unique units to replace the ones you weren't able to get if you picked a certain general or nation or race. Making a game where you have to decide whether to have a Chapter Master or Terminators is quite frankly ++heresy redacted++ without adequate replacements for those unique units in the game that are less powerful than the Elite counterparts. As you said "Each game will have a different variety of threats for you to face down, and so will feel a bit different for each army load-out." the game variety will remain if they add all the possible Elites to game you just limit them with resource cost, but dont ++heresy redacted++ make it so limiting that I have to choose what sections of the chapter I have to deploy because of some supposed balance when that is blatantly ++heresy redacted++ false.
vindicarex
So Relic's plan is likely to release many Elites - I heard 10 for each race at launch, and then they go from there. As such, you can't add dozens of elite units to the basic game (as in, have them be buildable in every game and ditch the loadouts) - simply too many.
How is this unique? The same was every other army build is: You have the OPTION to take some units and you have to CHOOSE what to take in your army. This is heavily present in 40k tabletop (Set points, fill the points from your roster). This is not limiting choices - its expanding them by giving us all these different Elite choices to use - to customize a loadout. It only "limits" choices if you demand that all Elite units are buildable - but that isn't feasible from a gameplay or balance perspective. This is also one of the main drive of games like CoD or League of Legends (you play with all the same stuff as the other players, but with enough customization to feel different). It's not traditional style-RTS, true. But Relic has proven this system in CoH2 so i'm confident they can pull it off in a successful manner in DoW3.
AlternativeIV
I never said it wasn't unique I said it was less so than giving us the ability to diversify armies through teching in game and creating a roster as such. If you want to go and make an argument as it relates to the model game I can litearlly field every single Elite if I want so in the most recent edition of the rules depending on the points of the game personally I play Apoc style 15k games so I field everything from Shadowswords to Usarakar E Creed to Colonel Gaunt and Commisar Yarrik all in the same game there are literally no limiting pathways. As for the League comparison which is kinda of dumb in and of itself, Dota(Another ARTS) allows for almost every single Hero in that game to be viable 96 out of the 111 were picked at the last international tournament showing the viability of balance as it relates to "ELITE" units, which makes your balance comments quite absurd. Still we are not talking about an ARTS or a MOBA we are talking about an RTS where in the most interesting aspect of any RTS is the agency to decide and create an army in realm time using it in real time and creating a unique experience with all the tools at your disposal in real time. The argument you make reductio ad absurdum about balance and creating a wholly unique experience greater than having all possible permutations available is kind of ridiculous and really disheartens me that people wouid actively defend such limiting gameplay principles on the scales of "possible" balance. I know this will not change the gameplay which is probably set in stone at this point no matter how awful the public reaction but I would still like to discuss it.
vindicarex
Whoa, that's not my argument, that's yours (or what you appear to state): > @AlternativeIV said:
So no, I wasn't attempting to make an "reductio ad absurdum." I was trying to understand the opening statement of your post. When you said "use them in any permutation in game" implies that they will always be available in any game mode, albeit in different varieties.
If I misunderstood, please explan exactly what you mean by "all possible permutations" of the game. Because you almost exactly say "all possible forms of game modes" - i.e. a basic game design choice to have units x,y,z at all levels in game, unlocked with traditional RTS tech progression (rather than acuquired through Elite points). Is this what you meant?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the competitive, tournament version of tabletop 40k is 1850 points, no? Apocalypse rules is wayyyy different with 15k points (or whatever), as you said. When you don't have near limitless points (resources), you have to be more selective with your army comp. to tailor it to play a certain way - to fight in a certain style. The Elite load out system helps to capture this essence.
Did you mean you want Elite units just to be enhanced versions of units that you could build without them? I.e. elite terminators vs regular terminators?
And comparing basic customization principles (pre-game loadout selection here) between other games with these same features is not dumb. It shows, with concrete examples, how that design choice is popular and successful in competitive games.
I still fail to understand how the Elite system is such a travesty, because to me, this system has the potential to expand many strategic and tactical choices - not inherently "limit" them, as I tried to explain in my previous posts. As I said, CoH2's doctrinal commander system appears to function very similarly to what they want to do with DoW3's Elite. The CoH2 system was implemented well and is an overall positive effect on gameplay choices and depth - and I see no reason for DoW3 to not achieve the same level of depth.
AmalurLegend
Honestly, both of ways can be "Balanced". The point will be around "Prediction" and "Balance".
In fact, relic can do the way you provide, but to do so, they have to reduce the Elite Units to 4 and it will work like the system in Warcraft 3. It means Elite have to level up and learn new skill. Relic does want to do more than 4 Elite Units and they do not hope the Elite units are too important in DoW3, so they can not do this approach.
Under this structure, players have to guess which Elite the rival will send first and the Exp gain speed have to be considered, so the 4 is maximum to design. Now, we have at least 8 Elite units for each Factions in DoW3, so it's hard to do prediction and hard to balance the game.
So, Relic does take a different approach to do this system. They make Elite units be pick up at pre-match phase. Why?
Because, it can reduce the "over prediction" situation during the match and it can let players to make a pre-vision before match.
And these are okay. The big thing is Relic does want to implement the B/P system to change the feeling of strategy.
At before, players have to destroy enemy's specific building or to harass enemy's economy heavily to deny enemy's "Strategies" that are like prevent some super unit or making a ball army during the match.
Now, Relic wants players to do part of it before a match, with the B/P system, players have to think the counter plot to deal with it.
Why do elite units not to tie with tech?
Because, it will limit the build of line units and they don't want to reduce the variation of line units.
Thanks for reading.
AlternativeIV
I don't understand why people hate failure states or "over prediction", its inherently more interesting of a game where the wrong decision can be made then a streamlined version where there are no wrong choices and players can see what type of build you are going without any needed scouting which is the case as we can see with this game due to the fact that these "Hero" units makes such a huge impact on gameplay and is the focus point of DoW 3 as was stated earlier in the thread. Also what is wrong with limiting build paths to tech for heros if they are all possible? That creates player choice and player choice is inherently good especially when its on the fly as it relates to rts. To be able to react to your opponents decision with Tech switching or hero switching mid build isn't a bad thing unless as i said you dont like the instant failure state which is the possible end of a bad tech choice that dosent pan out army and Elite wise. Also what is the reasoning as to why they cant have more than 4 "Elite" units at any given time, it worked for Dawn of War where we were able to get Pyskers Commisars, Kasrkins, General Militants, Ecclesiarch Priest and Vindicare Assassins so why would it be absurd or imbalanced to have all possible Elites like Chapter Master Veteran Marines, Terminators, Librarians, Chaplains and Imperial Knights if every army has there own?
Shardex
If the game is balanced primarily around the elite units and more are to be released post gamerelease ( likely) it does indeed make more sense to draft them pregame. If you could just tech them, the game will become a stale and predictable meta really fast once players figure out the counters. Skilled usage of the elite units chosen pregame in tandem with the Build Orders and Army composition will make for more diverse strategies and mndgames. Atleast in my head.
We'll see how it plays out after a while. So far i've only seen videos of players clicking every spell and playing very slow in general, but all of the official reviewers attested the game complexity and strategic depth.
Shardex
@AlternativeIV Your arguments are indeed valid, but they built the game with a certain design philosophy. Dawn of war games arent as fast as Starcraft matches . Especially in DoW1 it was possible to hurt the opponent so much in the early game to make it near impossible for him to come back. Then you had to play out a 25~30min game that was already onesided Doom, unless he surrenders. Which is never fun but frustrating. So they implemented more comeback mechanism in DoW 3, especially with the escalation system, which afaik will speed up lategame teching. So if every eliteunit is available in the match it becomes this simple rock ,paper, scissor game, accelerating through the game. Also a horror to balance with competiveness (is that a word?) in mind. Maybe it will be possible to think out certain strategies like having a elite unit that is weaker to the opponents in the beginning but to supplement it with a good army composition that fares well against the enemy elite unit/army. Then becomes more powerful in lategame or hits certain power spikes. Not even counting in superior mechanical skills in microing etc.
Also with the addition of units postrelease its always possible to refresh the metagame. Also im preeeetty sure, if the game will somewhat succeed (and i expect it to regardless of the ranting) we will see more factions releases and balanced accordingly. You just have to accept/embrace the fact they are currently going for a mobalike design combined with rts parts.
AmalurLegend
First, it's about the Role of Elite unit in the game. Relic wants Elite units have its role, but they also do not hope it's too important. So, they try to find the meet point between DoW1 and WC3. and that's what we see.
We have Elite units, they have some important ability and they are not tied to tech building, but they do not have Levels and Equipment. The only way to get elite units is use Elite Points to "Buy" it, but Elite points are mainly from time passing and it decides the timing those elite units come to the battlefield.
For now the system has all ready has a lot of variation, players can choose when to buy which Elite unit, so even the same build of Elite unit, there are 6 combinations. If there are no limitation and then the combination will have more.
Secondly, the complexity of DoW3 is not just from Elite Unit system and are also from other aspect. so if they make the Elite Units part have too much complexity and then it will have big impact at other aspect. For example, the line unit aspect will be affect by the elite unit system.
Thirdly, I remember there are no more than 4 Elite Units in DoW1 and I mean those units at left side frames. Those Elite units have some function but not as powerful as those Elite units in DoW3. There is less choice of the system, because players can buy all of them. The only choice is their timing and I mean players decide when to buy those Elite units.
Thanks for reading.
AlternativeIV
The 2 states I was referencing were
"I think this also helps capture the essence of 40k/DoW - army customization. It not only fits well with the 40k theme, but also from a gameplay stance of giving the player more unique way to play the game. While this does increase the difficulty in balancing the game, I think the foundation is sound."
and
"How is this unique? The same was every other army build is: You have the OPTION to take some units and you have to CHOOSE what to take in your army. This is heavily present in 40k tabletop (Set points, fill the points from your roster). This is not limiting choices - its expanding them by giving us all these different Elite choices to use - to customize a loadout. It only "limits" choices if you demand that all Elite units are buildable - but that isn't feasible from a gameplay or balance perspective. This is also one of the main drive of games like CoD or League of Legends (you play with all the same stuff as the other players, but with enough customization to feel different). It's not traditional style-RTS, true. But Relic has proven this system in CoH2 so i'm confident they can pull it off in a successful manner in DoW3."
Correct me if Im wrong but how does limiting the army to a selection of 3 elites at the beginning increase gameplay variety/uniqueness as you stated here "but also from a gameplay stance of giving the player more unique way to play the game" in comparison to having all available units at your disposal? That was my main point i was trying to get across, then you state is isn't feasible from a gameplay or balance perspective which is where my argumentum ad absurdum comes from because that is just ridiculous to think and as an example of this I bring up Dota 2 to disprove said argument as you brought up League. Then you bring up the table top which I then counter with the knowledge that with the current edition of the rules you can literally field any army composition you want within points reason and looking at my current Imprerial Guard(Astra Militarium) Codex while doing some mental math I could quite literally field every single "ELITE" choice and HQ "ELITE" choice bare bones in an 1850 point game with enough left over for 1 of every possible variant of Lemun Russ Exterminator, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Demolisher, Punisher, and Executioner along with Kasyrkins Ogryns, Pyskers, Uskar E Creed, Bullgryns, Ratlings, Preist, Enginseers, Knight Commander Pask, Lord Commisars, Nork Deddog and Colonel Straken. That might now be a very good army but I could field it as it comes out to 1870 but you get my point. Finally what I meant by every possible permutation was the ability to be able to make on the fly decision making about units for example in my perfect world of Dawn of War 3 playing a hypothetical Space Marine game I would want to start my build path along the lines of a final army supporting an Imperial Knight and a Warhound Titan which would be a late game build. So i start the tech path to that only to see my Tyranid opponent is rushing a Zoanthroape and Genestealer army so I do a fast tech switch cutting resources to my development of my Imperial Titan and redirect requisition to a Chaplain and Librarian to attach to my Devastator and Marine Squad to stop the said push and hopefully come out ahead. That is what I mean by every permutation of Elite unit, I dont like the fact that Terminators have to be a pre game decision when they should be a real time decision to invest in, it just doesn't make sense if player agency and game diversity is the key factor as we have been arguing about this entire time.
AlternativeIV
Look I dont disagree with you, I made this thread fully understanding that this is something that wont be changed and this is probably the reason I'm not going to purchase the game full price(maybe when it goes on sale) because I very much disagree with these limitations on player agency. The reason I'm so active in replies and heated in some cases is because I hate the arguments that were presented earlier that this is an objectively more diverse option for gameplay and the argument that it would be "impossible" or "improbable" or a "horror" to balance as that is reasoning enough not to do it? That just dosen't make any given sense and like I brought up before Dota does it as it relates to "Mobas" "ARTS" and balance where as I said 96 of the 111 Hero's were picked at said international tournament with the 20 million dollar prize pool. Albeit Ice Frog had about 7 years of balance with Dota Allstars but creating and balancing a Dawn of War game within its life cycle where in all units are viable dosent seem like an impossibility and would make for a more interesting game all together.
Shardex
Yep, youre totally right in regards to Dota. By now its a very well balanced, much complex and diverse game. But it grew (keypoint) organically from a mod in WC3 over a decade to what it is now. And Dota had its fair share of bad and unbalanced metas. Also when you even bring Dota up, you have to acknowledge how much strategy is involved in hero drafting instead of being able to switch "tech" at any point. Ofc it will be a more interesting game if more units are released over time. New possible strategies and tactics will come up. But having everything available in the game basically at every point only makes sense in a game where ressources deplete over time like in SC2. Only then it is possible to make wrong choices instead of repeatedly build the rock to the opponents scissor . And then it mostly boils down to fast APM, unfortunately as that is. In a game that on the other hand speeds up ressource gain limiting the unit pool is the obvious choice. And puts the S as in strategy in focus instead of the A in apm. Which i absolutely prefer.
Hope that makes it clearer. More choice isnt always a deeper complex solution.
AlternativeIV
I completely agree Dota did have the opportunity to grow and get balanced and yes it had its rough patches bring Hoho Haha and Troll Warlord and even further back in Allstars ++heresy redacted++ the Gambler Patch http://i.imgur.com/xrmjVZl.jpg , still the design philosophy and gameplay philosophy allowed for this kind of growth and future expansive balance. Im going to bring up League vs Dota as my example where in Riot actively tries to limit player agency and creativity by enforcing the meta and stifiiling creativity and growth only to allow interesting gameplay when something is op or when a new champ is released. My examples of this would be AP Rengar being nerfed to ++heresy redacted++ instead of creating soft counters for him and more recently support roaming singed and support roaming nunu as seen here http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/FrILlWp7-14-day-ban-because-playing-nunu-support-with-smite-is-stealing-other-peoples-roles Every single choice Relic has made me see them following more and more of Riots playbook which might be decent for some but not from me. I can see them releasing new "Elite" every few month and nerfing the ++heresy redacted++ outta the old ones and charging for said Elites with the possibility of buying them for fucktons of in game currency or micro transactions and balancing as such. I know this might be loose false equivalence because two completely different companies and 2 different genres of games but there is logic that follows in my argument showing that either SEGA or Relic see fit to make this game as close to League as possible which as it relates to micro-transactions and monetary game is a smart move but as it relates to balance and this games life cycle i dont think it bodes well unless there is an endless stream of creative Elite choices this company is willing to pay the Black Librarians at Games Workshop to come up with rofl.
Shardex
Now you make totally different points about the publisher's buisness strategy instead of gameplay design. I can share your concerns but only time will tell how much of an impact (later) elite units/factions will have. Many games have been destroyed by shareholder's greed. Then i can only argue to buy the game and enjoy it while it lasts :-p
Edit: while i've never played CoH2 i have indeed heard and read of strong imbalances but im not able to judge that myself. But as far as the history of Dawn of War games goes, they have delivered really good dlc's and expansions that werent cash grabs. And when they were a bit greedy it was pretty much a negligible dlc.
AlternativeIV
Business stratagems and gameplay elements aren't mutually exclusive ideas as it relates to balance and investment into an idea and then monetizing said idea followed with the inevitable balance to prolong that ideas gameplay life span to get the greatest return possible. :^)