You can argue whatever you want. I repeatedly ask people all over for more fairness for ideas they disagree with - I'm not singling you out. If that's how you want to take that, then that's entirely your right.
Relic has a smaller team than Blizzard so obviously you cant do as many things while being subjected to the dreaded pipeline deadlines
Blizzard actually have a NDA when they do the betatesting and they keep in close touch with key members of the community regarded for their knowledge/understanding (i can personally confirm that)
Not systematically embracing whatever senseless advise the random forum warrior advocates doesnt mean the software house is deaf to the community feedback, rather they often read and discuss promising ideas/suggestion but i strongly suspect that the average joe doesnt really have a full grasp of all the consequences of a certain choice
Last but not least you have to understand thats their product, so it reflects their vision of the game, not yours or the community's; also just because some loud members of the community wants something its not going to systematically satisfy that same community once implemented. Shocking uh? Sometimes you actually have to protect the players from themselves
@AlternativeIV said:
This reddit post covered alot of those points created by one of my favorite streamers who played the game professionally. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/
Blizzard quite frankly ignored a good portion of this commentary and rarely talked to the community about it or the balance changes and by the time they did actually decide to create a dialogue and initiate changes the tournament scene was on the decline and the average player base moved onto League and Dota respectively killing the Starcraft community because Blizzard did not listen and only focused on the professional scene. This is both a good thing and a bad thing for Dawn of War 3 because Relic is obviously focusing on the casual portion of the gaming community to try to bring in the biggest possible audience but its not communicating with the current core audience about issues to allay fears and like it or not the casual moba community would be pretty hard to turn into a core audience especially with a 60 dollar price tag barrier to entry. Maybe if they made the multiplayer free like Blizz did later on while having you pay for a single player campaign could create some buzz and interest but unless tehy add a rewards system and a micro-transaction skin system I can see the same lack of interest as starcraft did in the years post HoTS. I hope Relic is listening and learns from Blizzards mistakes but with a month to go I have some serious doubts
Wow, that is a good article, helped me to see things in a new way and now I'm more worried about the future of DoW3 than before. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the game looks promising, but the guy that wrote the article is right: 95% of the people don't care about playing 1v1 ranked, so a game like this needs to have (among other things) 2 features:
team based play -
DoW3 has it, but why limit it to 3v3? Release a map editor with the game and let the community make maps up to 6v6 or I don't know how many, why not? And talking about map editor, that's probably the most important thing of them all, because --->
more game modes -
At first I didn't care too much about there being just one single game mode on release, but now I realized that I'm part of the 5% of the players who play 1v1 ranked and it's not this part of the player base that makes the game succesful in general or as an e-sport. Those are the other 95% of players. And for them the game needs to be fun and diverse and varied - so it needs more game modes. I mean, where is FFA? where is 2v2v2 or 3v3v3? And I would say in needs to go way further than that, there should be an editor which alows modders to make custom game modes and so. As it looks now, the game will launch with very little content. Even if they add a lot of content later, I'm afraid the damage will be irreversibly done. This is not a free to play, it needs to start growing right after release, otherwise if it kills it's launch hype it will die.
Edit: Hah, I even completely forgot about Last Stand, a prime example why an rts needs game modes and custom games. It's even Relic's own game, how can they not see how popular it was?
I've tried to steer clear of all conversations to do with DoW3 because it was clear there was a vocal group of haters that were beyond looking at any reveal of the game/game mechanics objectively and simply wanted to hate on it and call it a MOBA and or Mobile game.
I also usually end up writing walls of texts about things I'd written walls of text about in the past so I decided stop but what the hell, if he can make a rant video I can type a lengthy post once in a while.
~Wall of Text Warning~
There is quite a few flaws in Arch Warhammers logic when making this video, he's already expressed his displeasure at a lot of things shown of DoW3 so he is hardly in a position to be objective in making his lists. Making a video list of what makes DoW3 not a Dawn of War game is, in my opinion, him justifying his own position as if he feels a need to show how "right" he is. The list is clearly biased and I want to back that statement up by going over a few of his points.
Cover System
Building Cover
First off there is no reason these needed to be two points on his list, they are both a point referring to the cover system, He chooses to dismiss the bubble shields as "not cover" therefore the cover does not exist in the game. Well regardless of whether you like the bubble shields or not, they are cover as the developers intend them to be in this game so I'd strike that off his list. He also argued that the bubble shields could be perceived as building cover but then proceeds to keep "building cover" as a point on his list against DoW3. Also, I do not believe there was any Building cover in DoW1 until the Imperial Guard were added to the game in Winter Assault with their bunker buildings, so it would only be fair to judge this point (if you want to separate it from cover in general) after the devs have officially stopped adding content to DoW3
Dynamic Movement
He points out that DoW1 did not have dynamic movement, he makes the assumption that the only reason it wasn't included was due to the technology not having been created yet. It is his belief that Dynamic Movement is a staple of Relic games and that somehow furthers his point of DoW3 not being a Dawn of War game. I would argue that because Dawn of War 1 did not have dynamic movement that proves it isn't a staple of Dawn of War games and therefore not a required feature of a Dawn of War game. You don't get to make assumptions and then through your own bias infer that this feature would have been included had the tech been available, the fact is, Dawn of War 1 didn't have it.
Chaos Faction
Was not in Vanilla DoW2, so why is he adding this as a point against DoW3? unless DoW3 does not include Chaos by the time the devs stop adding content but even then they were an expansion race in one game and some Expansion races from DoW1 did not get into DoW2 so it could be argued that not including a race from a previous game is nothing new. I personally feel Chaos should be included and I am sure they will be added to DoW3 but this is another point on his list that is there to make up the numbers.
Suppression
He's aware that there is a debuff from heavy weapons of some kind in DoW3 (I was not, first I am hearing of it) but because it isn't as effective it doesn't count as suppression. I think a better argument would have been Morale, not suppression. Morale was in DoW1 and I viewed the suppression mechanic as its replacement in DoW2 but as he was referring to suppression only and there is apparently a minor debuff I would argue, just like cover, that just because it isn't implemented the way you want it doesn't mean it no longer "exists".
Retreat mechanic
Same as Dynamic movement, it wasn't in Dawn of War 1. There is also a fall back option in DoW3 that he mentions in the video, so again because it does not fit his own exact opinion of how that mechanic should work he dismisses the option given and states it no longer exists in this game.
Moving on to his "still in" list
Warhammer 40k IP
So its ok to separate Cover System and Building Cover but lets lump all race's, race mechanics, unit types, unit abilities, unit unlocks, unit upgrades etc under one entry on this list as if Warhammer 40k started out as an RTS video game and not Tabletop painted miniatures game.
I'd also say at this point that Cover should be added to the "still in" list as well as:
Capture Points
One of the main features of Dawn of War is capture points out on the map to fight over, the fact you gain resources from them as well, I could make resource collection another point but I think it fits nicely under this one and also it can be argued that resource gathering on its own has changed over each game.
The game not being the same as the last one
This is a fairly broad point but as Gorb mentioned, there was a lot of heat given to DoW2 that is almost identical to how people are acting with DoW3, the Heroes and simplification of DoW2 was argued to be Relic trying to go the E-Sport and MOBA route. But the one thing that is consistent here so far is that DoW2 was different from DoW1 to the point people went crazy with hate and DoW3 appears to continue that trend by being different from DoW2 and people are going crazy with hate. For the record I was not keen on the changes made for DoW2 but I still bought it and played it and enjoyed it.
I won't go over the "New List" as this was essentially another opportunity for Arch to go over the things he hates about DoW3 whilst throwing in a few 40k related jokes to exaggerate their implementation. I agree with him on some of the animations, particularly the two he pointed out but there are other animations I really like.
Finally, I want to point out that if we were to take the same logic applied in that video and apply it to Dawn of War 2 we could come to the conclusion that Dawn of War 2 is not a Dawn of War game, it is a Company of Heroes game with a 40k skin. Smaller armies, smaller squads, smaller maps, updated cover mechanic, retreat mechanic etc all prove that to be true. You can add lack of basebuilding, lack of Free For All game mode, less players (6 instead of 8), Annihilation mode being shallow due to the removal of base building on top of the above differences as reasons for it not being a Dawn of War game.
I believe the above was an opinion voiced back when details of DoW2 were emerging and well after it's eventual release, it was silly then, it's still silly now.
Now to be clear on my own personal Bias;
I am looking forward to playing the game.
I do have some reservations about certain features such as there only being one multiplayer mode, the restrictions that mode places on maps, only 3 races, some animations. I simply choose to give the game a chance, I can always cancel my pre-order if the game is not to my taste.
If you made it this far reading everything I wrote then thanks and maybe you deserve a medal.
@AlternativeIV said:
This reddit post covered alot of those points created by one of my favorite streamers who played the game professionally. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/
Blizzard quite frankly ignored a good portion of this commentary and rarely talked to the community about it or the balance changes and by the time they did actually decide to create a dialogue and initiate changes the tournament scene was on the decline and the average player base moved onto League and Dota respectively killing the Starcraft community because Blizzard did not listen and only focused on the professional scene. This is both a good thing and a bad thing for Dawn of War 3 because Relic is obviously focusing on the casual portion of the gaming community to try to bring in the biggest possible audience but its not communicating with the current core audience about issues to allay fears and like it or not the casual moba community would be pretty hard to turn into a core audience especially with a 60 dollar price tag barrier to entry. Maybe if they made the multiplayer free like Blizz did later on while having you pay for a single player campaign could create some buzz and interest but unless tehy add a rewards system and a micro-transaction skin system I can see the same lack of interest as starcraft did in the years post HoTS. I hope Relic is listening and learns from Blizzards mistakes but with a month to go I have some serious doubts
Wow, that is a good article, helped me to see things in a new way and now I'm more worried about the future of DoW3 than before. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the game looks promising, but the guy that wrote the article is right: 95% of the people don't care about playing 1v1 ranked, so a game like this needs to have (among other things) 2 features:
team based play -
DoW3 has it, but why limit it to 3v3? Release a map editor with the game and let the community make maps up to 6v6 or I don't know how many, why not? And talking about map editor, that's probably the most important thing of them all, because --->
more game modes -
At first I didn't care too much about there being just one single game mode on release, but now I realized that I'm part of the 5% of the players who play 1v1 ranked and it's not this part of the player base that makes the game succesful in general or as an e-sport. Those are the other 95% of players. And for them the game needs to be fun and diverse and varied - so it needs more game modes. I mean, where is FFA? where is 2v2v2 or 3v3v3? And I would say in needs to go way further than that, there should be an editor which alows modders to make custom game modes and so. As it looks now, the game will launch with very little content. Even if they add a lot of content later, I'm afraid the damage will be irreversibly done. This is not a free to play, it needs to start growing right after release, otherwise if it kills it's launch hype it will die.
Edit: Hah, I even completely forgot about Last Stand, a prime example why an rts needs game modes and custom games. It's even Relic's own game, how can they not see how popular it was?
Yeah I want DoW to succeed because of how dead the rts market is right now, but i see relic making the same Blizzard tier mistakes in some regards. I hope Dawn of War has a greater life cycle than SC2 and maybe if Relic learn from Blizzards ++heresy redacted++ business decisions Dawn of War can come out ahead and revitalize part of the rts market share.
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Gorb
Editing a video also takes time and resources!
You can argue whatever you want. I repeatedly ask people all over for more fairness for ideas they disagree with - I'm not singling you out. If that's how you want to take that, then that's entirely your right.
yourCuteMotoko
Few keypoints people seems to misunderstand:
Last but not least you have to understand thats their product, so it reflects their vision of the game, not yours or the community's; also just because some loud members of the community wants something its not going to systematically satisfy that same community once implemented. Shocking uh? Sometimes you actually have to protect the players from themselves
LeemanRuss
https://ibb.co/iM7cFa what is this tau look at shadows seems legit nah i know its fake but look s great
CleanAndClear
Wow, that is a good article, helped me to see things in a new way and now I'm more worried about the future of DoW3 than before. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the game looks promising, but the guy that wrote the article is right: 95% of the people don't care about playing 1v1 ranked, so a game like this needs to have (among other things) 2 features:
team based play -
DoW3 has it, but why limit it to 3v3? Release a map editor with the game and let the community make maps up to 6v6 or I don't know how many, why not? And talking about map editor, that's probably the most important thing of them all, because --->
more game modes -
At first I didn't care too much about there being just one single game mode on release, but now I realized that I'm part of the 5% of the players who play 1v1 ranked and it's not this part of the player base that makes the game succesful in general or as an e-sport. Those are the other 95% of players. And for them the game needs to be fun and diverse and varied - so it needs more game modes. I mean, where is FFA? where is 2v2v2 or 3v3v3? And I would say in needs to go way further than that, there should be an editor which alows modders to make custom game modes and so. As it looks now, the game will launch with very little content. Even if they add a lot of content later, I'm afraid the damage will be irreversibly done. This is not a free to play, it needs to start growing right after release, otherwise if it kills it's launch hype it will die.
Edit: Hah, I even completely forgot about Last Stand, a prime example why an rts needs game modes and custom games. It's even Relic's own game, how can they not see how popular it was?
ValKor01
I've tried to steer clear of all conversations to do with DoW3 because it was clear there was a vocal group of haters that were beyond looking at any reveal of the game/game mechanics objectively and simply wanted to hate on it and call it a MOBA and or Mobile game.
I also usually end up writing walls of texts about things I'd written walls of text about in the past so I decided stop but what the hell, if he can make a rant video I can type a lengthy post once in a while.
~Wall of Text Warning~
There is quite a few flaws in Arch Warhammers logic when making this video, he's already expressed his displeasure at a lot of things shown of DoW3 so he is hardly in a position to be objective in making his lists. Making a video list of what makes DoW3 not a Dawn of War game is, in my opinion, him justifying his own position as if he feels a need to show how "right" he is. The list is clearly biased and I want to back that statement up by going over a few of his points.
First off there is no reason these needed to be two points on his list, they are both a point referring to the cover system, He chooses to dismiss the bubble shields as "not cover" therefore the cover does not exist in the game. Well regardless of whether you like the bubble shields or not, they are cover as the developers intend them to be in this game so I'd strike that off his list. He also argued that the bubble shields could be perceived as building cover but then proceeds to keep "building cover" as a point on his list against DoW3. Also, I do not believe there was any Building cover in DoW1 until the Imperial Guard were added to the game in Winter Assault with their bunker buildings, so it would only be fair to judge this point (if you want to separate it from cover in general) after the devs have officially stopped adding content to DoW3
He points out that DoW1 did not have dynamic movement, he makes the assumption that the only reason it wasn't included was due to the technology not having been created yet. It is his belief that Dynamic Movement is a staple of Relic games and that somehow furthers his point of DoW3 not being a Dawn of War game. I would argue that because Dawn of War 1 did not have dynamic movement that proves it isn't a staple of Dawn of War games and therefore not a required feature of a Dawn of War game. You don't get to make assumptions and then through your own bias infer that this feature would have been included had the tech been available, the fact is, Dawn of War 1 didn't have it.
Was not in Vanilla DoW2, so why is he adding this as a point against DoW3? unless DoW3 does not include Chaos by the time the devs stop adding content but even then they were an expansion race in one game and some Expansion races from DoW1 did not get into DoW2 so it could be argued that not including a race from a previous game is nothing new. I personally feel Chaos should be included and I am sure they will be added to DoW3 but this is another point on his list that is there to make up the numbers.
He's aware that there is a debuff from heavy weapons of some kind in DoW3 (I was not, first I am hearing of it) but because it isn't as effective it doesn't count as suppression. I think a better argument would have been Morale, not suppression. Morale was in DoW1 and I viewed the suppression mechanic as its replacement in DoW2 but as he was referring to suppression only and there is apparently a minor debuff I would argue, just like cover, that just because it isn't implemented the way you want it doesn't mean it no longer "exists".
Same as Dynamic movement, it wasn't in Dawn of War 1. There is also a fall back option in DoW3 that he mentions in the video, so again because it does not fit his own exact opinion of how that mechanic should work he dismisses the option given and states it no longer exists in this game.
Moving on to his "still in" list
So its ok to separate Cover System and Building Cover but lets lump all race's, race mechanics, unit types, unit abilities, unit unlocks, unit upgrades etc under one entry on this list as if Warhammer 40k started out as an RTS video game and not Tabletop painted miniatures game.
I'd also say at this point that Cover should be added to the "still in" list as well as:
One of the main features of Dawn of War is capture points out on the map to fight over, the fact you gain resources from them as well, I could make resource collection another point but I think it fits nicely under this one and also it can be argued that resource gathering on its own has changed over each game.
This is a fairly broad point but as Gorb mentioned, there was a lot of heat given to DoW2 that is almost identical to how people are acting with DoW3, the Heroes and simplification of DoW2 was argued to be Relic trying to go the E-Sport and MOBA route. But the one thing that is consistent here so far is that DoW2 was different from DoW1 to the point people went crazy with hate and DoW3 appears to continue that trend by being different from DoW2 and people are going crazy with hate. For the record I was not keen on the changes made for DoW2 but I still bought it and played it and enjoyed it.
I won't go over the "New List" as this was essentially another opportunity for Arch to go over the things he hates about DoW3 whilst throwing in a few 40k related jokes to exaggerate their implementation. I agree with him on some of the animations, particularly the two he pointed out but there are other animations I really like.
Finally, I want to point out that if we were to take the same logic applied in that video and apply it to Dawn of War 2 we could come to the conclusion that Dawn of War 2 is not a Dawn of War game, it is a Company of Heroes game with a 40k skin. Smaller armies, smaller squads, smaller maps, updated cover mechanic, retreat mechanic etc all prove that to be true. You can add lack of basebuilding, lack of Free For All game mode, less players (6 instead of 8), Annihilation mode being shallow due to the removal of base building on top of the above differences as reasons for it not being a Dawn of War game.
I believe the above was an opinion voiced back when details of DoW2 were emerging and well after it's eventual release, it was silly then, it's still silly now.
Now to be clear on my own personal Bias;
I am looking forward to playing the game.
I do have some reservations about certain features such as there only being one multiplayer mode, the restrictions that mode places on maps, only 3 races, some animations. I simply choose to give the game a chance, I can always cancel my pre-order if the game is not to my taste.
If you made it this far reading everything I wrote then thanks and maybe you deserve a medal.
AlternativeIV
Yeah I want DoW to succeed because of how dead the rts market is right now, but i see relic making the same Blizzard tier mistakes in some regards. I hope Dawn of War has a greater life cycle than SC2 and maybe if Relic learn from Blizzards ++heresy redacted++ business decisions Dawn of War can come out ahead and revitalize part of the rts market share.