On a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to add that the fact they have a model close to a Bloodclaw in DoW II doesn't mean it's easy to make a full squad in DoW III. For all we know the game runs on a different engine, you can't just re-use the same model as the previous game.
@Chubbyninja89 said:
Where's the love for the various chapters and sub factions within the 40k universe?
Hidden behind the wall of development time alongside conflicting priorities. How do you split your workforce to address the playerbase's complaints?
Balance, bugfixes, new races, new expansions, etc.
I think they will made visual-DLCs for the chapters. They were idiots if they dont do it.
So you have the same Units but different looks. Like for Imperial Guard for example, you have standard Cardia Troops but could buy a Krieg-DLC or Catachans-DLC which change the look of the units.
@Chubbyninja89 said:
They're actually different enough to do something with, if you actually looked up the lore and did your freaking research. And I'll just put it in simple terms so it won't confuse you too much.
I am in TT for 9 years. And not really, they dont even have rules as of now (Ghazgkhkull Tgrhagkha had some). Sure, blood axes love commandos, goffs love greentide, deathskulls like to loot etc, but they don't really have any special units. And their preferences dont mean that goffs have no bikes and blood axes have no footslogging boys. So yeah, if u want to play as Blood Axes - put on some DLCs for skins, play with a lot of commandos and with commandos doctrine (if there will be something like this). As I said, not really huge difference which can be made by some skins and maybe doctrines. Space marines - black templars have huge squads of close combat marines, they are good against psykers, run faster and are going mad if having casualties from silly shooting, also Emperor's Champion, and its not, like, some of my fantasies
@Silk said:
What prevents the variety from coming from the elite and doctrine systems? Why does it need to be additional factions, instead of just doctrines and elite units?
If Relic wants to represent the different sub-factions it’s probably the best way to go considering the mechanics in place.
It would be easy for them to introduce one or two doctrines related to, let's say the Space Wolves, in order to have variations from the traditional mechanics of the Space Marines, then including two or three elites in order to showcase the unique units from that sub-faction, for example the Thunderwolf Cavalry in the case of the Space Wolves, and finally having a skin pack changing the appearance of the main units.
I honestly hope it’s the way they’re going to do it, if they choose to do it, because I’d love to see Thousand Sons represented once Chaos will be there, same for the Death Korps of Krieg for Adeptus Militarum.
If you implement a customise for each clan/chapter/gods/regiments you need to expand that to not just include the codex ones but a system to allow you to create your own traits (else everyone wont even make a custom chapter or just stick with the most effective one, like TT), which in turn adds another balance knot and another complexity layer which im not sure its actually beneficial since you have this doctrine system in place already.
@yourCuteMotoko
Well, you could also use the existing traits.
Maybe my special snowflake original donut steel chapter uses this trait from the Salamanders, and this "codex" (general) doctrine, and this doctrine from Blood Angels, and this elite unit from the Black Templars, etc.
If doctrines and elite units are varied enough, it should work.
@Doobeedoo said:
Oh for ++heresy redacted++'s sake. DoW3 is an RTS. It is not (and should not be) a simulation of the tabletop game/lore.
There's already an army painter which is something that other RTS games don't have.
If DoW2 is any indication, there may be DLC skin packs to make your Marines look like Smurfs/DA/BA/Space puppies etc.
I totally agree with you, it shouldn't be the slow paced battles of the tabletop, but I'm not talking about making it a simulation of the tabletop, but rather a simulation of all the crazy ferocious battles that have happened in 40k. And adding in the various factions and groups within race would greatly increase the amount of variety that you could get in those battles in the game.
@Gorb said:
I've played Tabletop, I know what Blood Claws look like
Maybe you should stop accusing people of what they do or do not know, and focus on debating the topic instead of attacking others? Personal opinion post.
And maybe you should stop trying to dance around the obviously clear point I'm making and act like an adult who is willing to actually look at someone else's opinion and not just your own.
Correct me if I'm wrong, however, I remember seeing an army editor that allows you to create custom colors or pick present colors from various chapters, etc.
@Silk said:
On a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to add that the fact they have a model close to a Bloodclaw in DoW II doesn't mean it's easy to make a full squad in DoW III. For all we know the game runs on a different engine, you can't just re-use the same model as the previous game.
Quit trying to act like such a stuck up know it all.
I was simply using the model of the force commander from DoW2 to show that it wouldn't require overhauling a ton of stuff to make the various sup factions and chapters within the 40k races as a whole. Yes, they'd have to make "new" data for some of the more elite units like Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard, or Evil Sunz Biker Nobz., but they could for the most part simply copy the data of the base Space Marine faction, and change a few little things here and there, then they'd be able to get the other SM chapters and such. And that could be a great way to make faction/chapter DLC.
@GenuineProdigy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, however, I remember seeing an army editor that allows you to create custom colors or pick present colors from various chapters, etc.
Actually it was basically just changing the color scheme of your Space Marines, Orks, and so on, not really changing how you play at all.
@Chubbyninja89 said:
They're actually different enough to do something with, if you actually looked up the lore and did your freaking research. And I'll just put it in simple terms so it won't confuse you too much.
I am in TT for 9 years. And not really, they dont even have rules as of now (Ghazgkhkull Tgrhagkha had some). Sure, blood axes love commandos, goffs love greentide, deathskulls like to loot etc, but they don't really have any special units. And their preferences dont mean that goffs have no bikes and blood axes have no footslogging boys. So yeah, if u want to play as Blood Axes - put on some DLCs for skins, play with a lot of commandos and with commandos doctrine (if there will be something like this). As I said, not really huge difference which can be made by some skins and maybe doctrines. Space marines - black templars have huge squads of close combat marines, they are good against psykers, run faster and are going mad if having casualties from silly shooting, also Emperor's Champion, and its not, like, some of my fantasies
Dude, that's kinda what I'm saying.
I think that if they at least brought in a doctrine like system where you start the match, and there in your base building, you have the option to choose between one of the various klans, chapters, or four chaos gods, and you get the various differences from what group you chose for the entire battle, then that'd be great. I'm just tired of seeing all these other awesome groups always getting neglected in most games, especially when they could be so well represented in the DoW games.
Though I learned that the Ork klans are different enough from each other to warrant a few special units at least. Things like Evil Sunz Biker Nobz and Blood Axe Kommando Nobz, but you get the idea.
And while if all the chapters and klans and so on were represented through proper good reskin DLC, that would at least be acceptable. But they'd really, really, REALLY have to make them full great quality reskins.
@Silk said:
On a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to add that the fact they have a model close to a Bloodclaw in DoW II doesn't mean it's easy to make a full squad in DoW III. For all we know the game runs on a different engine, you can't just re-use the same model as the previous game.
Quit trying to act like such a stuck up know it all.
I was simply using the model of the force commander from DoW2 to show that it wouldn't require overhauling a ton of stuff to make the various sup factions and chapters within the 40k races as a whole. Yes, they'd have to make "new" data for some of the more elite units like Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard, or Evil Sunz Biker Nobz., but they could for the most part simply copy the data of the base Space Marine faction, and change a few little things here and there, then they'd be able to get the other SM chapters and such. And that could be a great way to make faction/chapter DLC.
But such a huge change would require TONS of balancing, and we already have doctrines for you to customize your army, and presumably they'll add even more, allowing you to make a bigger focus on specific units, like assault marines for your blood angels etc. Also, like many before me have stated, in DoW2, they've released re-skins of a lot of the factions, like with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. It's also not that hard to just role play it, getting Blood Angel based elites, doctrines, units... overall, making a new version of Space Marines would make the game very unbalanced.
@DiggaNob said:
But such a huge change would require TONS of balancing, and we already have doctrines for you to customize your army, and presumably they'll add even more, allowing you to make a bigger focus on specific units, like assault marines for your blood angels etc. Also, like many before me have stated, in DoW2, they've released re-skins of a lot of the factions, like with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. It's also not that hard to just role play it, getting Blood Angel based elites, doctrines, units... overall, making a new version of Space Marines would make the game very unbalanced.
Well, they should just say screw balance, for the most part anyway, and just make the game more fun. But that's the thing man, if you actually look at the various special units from the various major chapters, you'd see that gameplay wise, they could be just made from the existing units, aside from the really different ones like Evil Suns Biker Nobz and Space Wolf Thunderwolf Cavalry.
I'll explain it here
Sanguinary Guard = Reskined elite Assault Marines for the Blood Angels
Space Wolf Bloodclaws = Assault Marines with no jump packs and slightly larger numbers (like 8 marines to 9 with a sergeant).
Space Wolf Grey Hunters = Tactical Marines with chainswords instead of the basic combat knife, with possible melee weapon upgrades in place of a few ranged ones.
Space Wolf Wolf Guard: Elite Tactical Marines who are very good in melee and have much more powerful melee weapon upgrades than the Grey Hunters.
Well, they should just say screw balance, for the most part anyway, and just make the game more fun.
Careful, balance = fun most of the time, and not just for the top pro players. If the game isn't balanced at least reasonably well, it will be less fun even for casual players that don't tryhard, but still like to play multiplayer. Nobody likes to lose just because his opponent has stronger faction. The number of players that play the game almost exclusively for the lore and don't care about balance and winning/loosing is imo incredibly small.
Agreed with @CleanAndClear. If you throw balance out of whack, it doesn't take a competitive, professional player to spam "cheese" strats for easy wins. Much of the time, strategies trickle down through every rank of play, and the more easy a strategy is to use to win (see: 4-gate in SC2), the more prevalent it'll be in lower brackets. It's so easy to pick up really good strategies in RTS games from watching streams, watching tournaments, reading forums, etc. that dissemination of imbalance is like wildfire.
@DiggaNob said:
But such a huge change would require TONS of balancing, and we already have doctrines for you to customize your army, and presumably they'll add even more, allowing you to make a bigger focus on specific units, like assault marines for your blood angels etc. Also, like many before me have stated, in DoW2, they've released re-skins of a lot of the factions, like with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. It's also not that hard to just role play it, getting Blood Angel based elites, doctrines, units... overall, making a new version of Space Marines would make the game very unbalanced.
Well, they should just say screw balance, for the most part anyway, and just make the game more fun.
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced? Sure you would have some "cool stuff" or whatever, but then you would just be smashed by guys spamming cheese strategies and the whole game would collapse because they lose every time they want to play their favorite faction, or win every time and get bored. you see my point.
@DiggaNob said:
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced?
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
@DiggaNob said:
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced?
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
That's why we are all hoping for rich modding possibilities so we would see something similar in DoW3 one day. But the base game should be here for balanced gameplay, not the other way around.
Fun isn't directly related to balance, but it contributes to it a lot.
I'll take the example of the tabletop game. At the moment, Orks are absurdly bad, and Tau are considered top-tier (mostly because of some really powerful units, that counter a lot of other units while being pretty cheap for its use).
When an Ork player encounters a Tau player on the tabletop, he has to rely on bad play from the Tau player and bad luck for the Tau and good rolls on his side to win, basically. (It may be a bit exagerated here but in my personal experience that's not that far from the truth.)
The direct result ot this is that Ork players feel less and less interested in playing the game per se, and perfer to play other armies. He may still buy and paint Orks, but he doesn't have any interest in playing them anymore (what's the point if he already knows he's going to loose?).
As for the Tau player, either he'll keep playing (and discouraging other Ork players he encounters), or he'll get bored of winning too easily each time and sell his army to play the next best game.
The same thing happens to any game ever. Imbalance creates frustration, which in turn make people leave the game, and reduces the diversity of plays (a.k.a. everyone follows the meta, and plays the flavor-of-the-month faction because some factions/subfactions are so under the others in terms of power they're not fun to play anymore).
Notice that I don't think perfect balance is required for the game to be fun - mainly because I also think perfect balance is impossible to reach. But striving for a perfectly balanced game reduces a lot of the frustrations I've talked about, and make the meta move enough that people just don't play the same perfect build that works everytime.
Now let's say they add a Space Wolves subfaction, that is very much like the Space Marine faction but with unique units replacing some of the classic ones - or simply added to the roster, it doesn't really matter.
If all other things are equal (i.e. same doctrines availables, same stats on not-replaced units, etc.), the slight differences will make the subfaction either better (or worse) than the nearby faction. Maybe the new units are too good (or worse than the one they replace), maybe it's a better synergy between units. Maybe the difference isn't that important. But overall, if you take an average on all match-ups, it is fairly certain Space Marines (or Space Wolves) will be considered the most optimal choice - and as the differences are so few, why would people keep playing the faction that is at a disadvantage? People not caring about the lore won't see the point at least. So devs have created a new faction that has to be balanced like the others (= more work on each patch), while few people actually play the subfaction (or the faction this subfaction now supercedes).
If you make more changes however, with stat changes for some "codex" units, or maybe even unique doctrines... well you could reach balance more easily already, but that means you worked on a lot of units, and the interaction between them. That's a lot more work than you seemed to think it would be. Almost as much as working on an entirely new faction, which would certainly add much more diversity (if only graphically!) than a subfaction. Therefore, the most logical choice for the company making the game is to use their ressources to make something really different instead of something barely different - especially when it is already possible to play something really close to the "barely different" faction with a good choice of color scheme, tactics, doctrines, unit selection, maybe a special skin, and maybe a bit of imagination on some units that are not exactly like in the related codex.
I'm not saying "it's impossible to make subfactions work". I'm saying in my opinion, it's much more practical and reasonable to do it by adding progressively new doctrines and elite units related to those subfactions (and balancing them along the way: it's much easier to tweak the stats and elite point cost on this particular unit you just added than tweaking stats on multiple new units).
@DiggaNob said:
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced?
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
That's not a case of content rich but unbalanced mods being the most desirable type of gameplay but rather the case that by the time a game is ten years old, those are the kind of players that still stick around.
Well, they should just say screw balance, for the most part anyway, and just make the game more fun.
Careful, balance = fun most of the time, and not just for the top pro players. If the game isn't balanced at least reasonably well, it will be less fun even for casual players that don't tryhard, but still like to play multiplayer. Nobody likes to lose just because his opponent has stronger faction. The number of players that play the game almost exclusively for the lore and don't care about balance and winning/loosing is imo incredibly small.
That's kind of why I really think that all, if not many, of the various chapters and such should be put into the games at some point. The more options there are, the less likely there will be one super OP faction or army.
@DiggaNob said:
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced? Sure you would have some "cool stuff" or whatever, but then you would just be smashed by guys spamming cheese strategies and the whole game would collapse because they lose every time they want to play their favorite faction, or win every time and get bored. you see my point.
You need to not try to be such a stuck up jerk about it all man, especially with a stupid line like "You have shown your true colors". But I wasn't meaning to say screw all balance, I was in a rush at the time of typing that comment, so I couldn't properly take the time to write the exact thing I wanted to get across.
And look at what I said to you earlier, or did you just choose to not read that? And what I'm saying further below in this comment.
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
Well, like I told CleanAndCleaner, the real reason I really want to see the various sub factions within each race is two fold.
Yeah cool stuff is one part of it, but the other is the fact that with more options, there'd be less chance for there to be one stupidly OP army or faction.
Well dude, I'm just getting sick of seeing the same ++heresy redacted++ factions over and over again in the 40k games. We never see any of the other, much more awesome space marine chapter. We don't get to see the actually different ork klans, go watch some lore videos on them to see what I mean. We've never seen the four chaos gods properly represented in the armies of chaos.
Those kind of things would seriously add so much ++heresy redacted++ variety to the games, not to mention it could be a great way to make money as DLC. Then everyone wins.
Except in practice, all those factions have minimal real difference from their template beyond the cosmetic. Your own example basically proves they're indistinguishable from normal Marines save for various elements that are limited to the fluff for the most part. Besides, even if it was done they'd be called out for not being true to their original depiction or otherwise be dismantled by nitpicking. Even doctrines and new units themed to support a force similar to them won't be enough to distinguish them, since the subfactions often work in radically different ways from one another. It would require making an entirely new army for each subfactions, which still wouldn't play differently enough to justify making it its own force.
More importantly, there's this thing called a "budget" that they have to follow, and as a result any subfactions added will be nothing more than recolors. That's how it's been for the last two games and their expansions, and that's how it'll be for this one too.
@DiggaNob said:
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced? Sure you would have some "cool stuff" or whatever, but then you would just be smashed by guys spamming cheese strategies and the whole game would collapse because they lose every time they want to play their favorite faction, or win every time and get bored. you see my point.
You need to not try to be such a stuck up jerk about it all man, especially with a stupid line like "You have shown your true colors". But I wasn't meaning to say screw all balance, I was in a rush at the time of typing that comment, so I couldn't properly take the time to write the exact thing I wanted to get across.
And look at what I said to you earlier, or did you just choose to not read that? And what I'm saying further below in this comment.
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
Well, like I told CleanAndCleaner, the real reason I really want to see the various sub factions within each race is two fold.
Yeah cool stuff is one part of it, but the other is the fact that with more options, there'd be less chance for there to be one stupidly OP army or faction.
I was just saying that saying "Screw balance" is kind of a dumb way to say it, and I dunno... I guess I "was in a rush at the time of typing that comment." Also, how would having more factions make the game more balanced? That would just make it even more complicated.
@alphariusomegon1 said:
Except in practice, all those factions have minimal real difference from their template beyond the cosmetic. Your own example basically proves they're indistinguishable from normal Marines save for various elements that are limited to the fluff for the most part. Besides, even if it was done they'd be called out for not being true to their original depiction or otherwise be dismantled by nitpicking. Even doctrines and new units themed to support a force similar to them won't be enough to distinguish them, since the subfactions often work in radically different ways from one another. It would require making an entirely new army for each subfactions, which still wouldn't play differently enough to justify making it its own force.
More importantly, there's this thing called a "budget" that they have to follow, and as a result any subfactions added will be nothing more than recolors. That's how it's been for the last two games and their expansions, and that's how it'll be for this one too.
Well you're wrong, so too bad for you. And it's pretty funny how you people constantly try to twist words around.
I was just using that as a example of how it wouldn't be hard to create the various space marine chapters from the base space marine race. And there could be enough differences between the 1st founding chapters to allow for different play styles, and that doesn't just go for the SMs but also the ork klans and chaos gods. It's what makes the chapters and all different that makes them awesome and special.
You guys really actually do your research and learning the lore as well before just trying to shoot down something you don't really know anything about.
And with all the effort you guys putting into this in order to put it down, you're starting to sound like one of those entitled morons who want the game to be kept stupidly exploitable. You know the type of person. The ones who demand that the games be made easier, that more stuff be given to them, and so on and so on. But I may just be reading into it too much, but I might possibly be right.
To be honest I think it would be a cool idea, but I would prefer relic to prioritise getting 1 or 2 of the other races in first and giving them a good fleshing out before moving on to different flavours of space marine/ork/eldar. The problem with this is that if you're going to be realistic, Relic only have so much time/money to do these things, and unless this game is mega successful, I'm not sure if we'll see enough support to add every warhammer race and then add loads of sub factions after that.
I would be happier if I could see a full list of available doctrines available to each race. Maybe we can work through it by using appropriate doctrines and elite units to match what the chapter/craftworld/klan would typically use.
I don't think adding Space Wolves/Dark angels/etc specifically add anything at all that couldn't be added by just some DLC voice lines and skins. More over it ends up being "like X but better at Y" which is a rabbit hole I'd rather not go down.
In a broad sense I think there is ALOT of room for them in custom games where you aren't trying to be competitive but in a ranked etc environment throwing in subfactions that focus on a specific aspect of the meta in addition to elites and doctrines are overkill
I was just saying that saying "Screw balance" is kind of a dumb way to say it, and I dunno... I guess I "was in a rush at the time of typing that comment." Also, how would having more factions make the game more balanced? That would just make it even more complicated.
Well I was in a rush when I first said the whole "screw balance things. And what I really wanted to say was that if all the various chapters and sub factions were added into the/a game so that there's less of a chance that one race/faction will be the most overpowered. I don't want to Chaos or Eldar be the most ridiculously OP faction in the game. Do you understand what I'm talking about with that?
I just don't want the games to become yet another moron's paradise where idiots can spam this or that stupid cheap OP "tactic", and be able to win all the freaking time, you know, instead of actually using strategy and thinking ability.
Something they could do for Space Wolves is give the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard a ability like the Ork's WAAAGH! abilit, but that could be a ability for just the Wolf Lord as well. of course it could be renamed something like Fury of Russ or something to make it at least sound different. Mix that with the changes for their units, and you'd get a fairly good representation of the Space Wolves, but that's just simple version of it.
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Comments
Silk
On a mostly unrelated note, I'd like to add that the fact they have a model close to a Bloodclaw in DoW II doesn't mean it's easy to make a full squad in DoW III. For all we know the game runs on a different engine, you can't just re-use the same model as the previous game.
Krakza
Hidden behind the wall of development time alongside conflicting priorities. How do you split your workforce to address the playerbase's complaints?
Balance, bugfixes, new races, new expansions, etc.
Larkis
I think they will made visual-DLCs for the chapters. They were idiots if they dont do it.
So you have the same Units but different looks. Like for Imperial Guard for example, you have standard Cardia Troops but could buy a Krieg-DLC or Catachans-DLC which change the look of the units.
Prince_Hatta_First
I am in TT for 9 years. And not really, they dont even have rules as of now (Ghazgkhkull Tgrhagkha had some). Sure, blood axes love commandos, goffs love greentide, deathskulls like to loot etc, but they don't really have any special units. And their preferences dont mean that goffs have no bikes and blood axes have no footslogging boys. So yeah, if u want to play as Blood Axes - put on some DLCs for skins, play with a lot of commandos and with commandos doctrine (if there will be something like this). As I said, not really huge difference which can be made by some skins and maybe doctrines. Space marines - black templars have huge squads of close combat marines, they are good against psykers, run faster and are going mad if having casualties from silly shooting, also Emperor's Champion, and its not, like, some of my fantasies
UnknownRobot
If Relic wants to represent the different sub-factions it’s probably the best way to go considering the mechanics in place.
It would be easy for them to introduce one or two doctrines related to, let's say the Space Wolves, in order to have variations from the traditional mechanics of the Space Marines, then including two or three elites in order to showcase the unique units from that sub-faction, for example the Thunderwolf Cavalry in the case of the Space Wolves, and finally having a skin pack changing the appearance of the main units.
I honestly hope it’s the way they’re going to do it, if they choose to do it, because I’d love to see Thousand Sons represented once Chaos will be there, same for the Death Korps of Krieg for Adeptus Militarum.
yourCuteMotoko
If you implement a customise for each clan/chapter/gods/regiments you need to expand that to not just include the codex ones but a system to allow you to create your own traits (else everyone wont even make a custom chapter or just stick with the most effective one, like TT), which in turn adds another balance knot and another complexity layer which im not sure its actually beneficial since you have this doctrine system in place already.
A mod might be what youre actually looking for
Silk
@yourCuteMotoko
Well, you could also use the existing traits.
Maybe my special snowflake original donut steel chapter uses this trait from the Salamanders, and this "codex" (general) doctrine, and this doctrine from Blood Angels, and this elite unit from the Black Templars, etc.
If doctrines and elite units are varied enough, it should work.
Chubbyninja89
I totally agree with you, it shouldn't be the slow paced battles of the tabletop, but I'm not talking about making it a simulation of the tabletop, but rather a simulation of all the crazy ferocious battles that have happened in 40k. And adding in the various factions and groups within race would greatly increase the amount of variety that you could get in those battles in the game.
Chubbyninja89
And maybe you should stop trying to dance around the obviously clear point I'm making and act like an adult who is willing to actually look at someone else's opinion and not just your own.
GenuineProdigy
Correct me if I'm wrong, however, I remember seeing an army editor that allows you to create custom colors or pick present colors from various chapters, etc.
Chubbyninja89
Quit trying to act like such a stuck up know it all.
I was simply using the model of the force commander from DoW2 to show that it wouldn't require overhauling a ton of stuff to make the various sup factions and chapters within the 40k races as a whole. Yes, they'd have to make "new" data for some of the more elite units like Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard, or Evil Sunz Biker Nobz., but they could for the most part simply copy the data of the base Space Marine faction, and change a few little things here and there, then they'd be able to get the other SM chapters and such. And that could be a great way to make faction/chapter DLC.
Chubbyninja89
Actually it was basically just changing the color scheme of your Space Marines, Orks, and so on, not really changing how you play at all.
Chubbyninja89
Dude, that's kinda what I'm saying.
I think that if they at least brought in a doctrine like system where you start the match, and there in your base building, you have the option to choose between one of the various klans, chapters, or four chaos gods, and you get the various differences from what group you chose for the entire battle, then that'd be great. I'm just tired of seeing all these other awesome groups always getting neglected in most games, especially when they could be so well represented in the DoW games.
Though I learned that the Ork klans are different enough from each other to warrant a few special units at least. Things like Evil Sunz Biker Nobz and Blood Axe Kommando Nobz, but you get the idea.
And while if all the chapters and klans and so on were represented through proper good reskin DLC, that would at least be acceptable. But they'd really, really, REALLY have to make them full great quality reskins.
DiggaNob
But such a huge change would require TONS of balancing, and we already have doctrines for you to customize your army, and presumably they'll add even more, allowing you to make a bigger focus on specific units, like assault marines for your blood angels etc. Also, like many before me have stated, in DoW2, they've released re-skins of a lot of the factions, like with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. It's also not that hard to just role play it, getting Blood Angel based elites, doctrines, units... overall, making a new version of Space Marines would make the game very unbalanced.
Chubbyninja89
Well, they should just say screw balance, for the most part anyway, and just make the game more fun. But that's the thing man, if you actually look at the various special units from the various major chapters, you'd see that gameplay wise, they could be just made from the existing units, aside from the really different ones like Evil Suns Biker Nobz and Space Wolf Thunderwolf Cavalry.
I'll explain it here
Sanguinary Guard = Reskined elite Assault Marines for the Blood Angels
Space Wolf Bloodclaws = Assault Marines with no jump packs and slightly larger numbers (like 8 marines to 9 with a sergeant).
Space Wolf Grey Hunters = Tactical Marines with chainswords instead of the basic combat knife, with possible melee weapon upgrades in place of a few ranged ones.
Space Wolf Wolf Guard: Elite Tactical Marines who are very good in melee and have much more powerful melee weapon upgrades than the Grey Hunters.
I'm pretty sure you get the idea.
CleanAndClear
Careful, balance = fun most of the time, and not just for the top pro players. If the game isn't balanced at least reasonably well, it will be less fun even for casual players that don't tryhard, but still like to play multiplayer. Nobody likes to lose just because his opponent has stronger faction. The number of players that play the game almost exclusively for the lore and don't care about balance and winning/loosing is imo incredibly small.
PrimaGoosa
Agreed with @CleanAndClear. If you throw balance out of whack, it doesn't take a competitive, professional player to spam "cheese" strats for easy wins. Much of the time, strategies trickle down through every rank of play, and the more easy a strategy is to use to win (see: 4-gate in SC2), the more prevalent it'll be in lower brackets. It's so easy to pick up really good strategies in RTS games from watching streams, watching tournaments, reading forums, etc. that dissemination of imbalance is like wildfire.
DiggaNob
You have shown your true colors. Seriously? Why would you want the game to be unbalanced? Sure you would have some "cool stuff" or whatever, but then you would just be smashed by guys spamming cheese strategies and the whole game would collapse because they lose every time they want to play their favorite faction, or win every time and get bored. you see my point.
Krakza
While I am with you on the side of preferring a balanced game: he might have a point.
Many 40k fans, when asked what they love, point towards modded DoW1 (Ultimate Apocalypse and Firestorm over Karauva especially) with their tongues lolling out. Neither of those are particularly balanced, but are popular in spite of that.
CleanAndClear
That's why we are all hoping for rich modding possibilities so we would see something similar in DoW3 one day. But the base game should be here for balanced gameplay, not the other way around.
Silk
Fun isn't directly related to balance, but it contributes to it a lot.
I'll take the example of the tabletop game. At the moment, Orks are absurdly bad, and Tau are considered top-tier (mostly because of some really powerful units, that counter a lot of other units while being pretty cheap for its use).
When an Ork player encounters a Tau player on the tabletop, he has to rely on bad play from the Tau player and bad luck for the Tau and good rolls on his side to win, basically. (It may be a bit exagerated here but in my personal experience that's not that far from the truth.)
The direct result ot this is that Ork players feel less and less interested in playing the game per se, and perfer to play other armies. He may still buy and paint Orks, but he doesn't have any interest in playing them anymore (what's the point if he already knows he's going to loose?).
As for the Tau player, either he'll keep playing (and discouraging other Ork players he encounters), or he'll get bored of winning too easily each time and sell his army to play the next best game.
The same thing happens to any game ever. Imbalance creates frustration, which in turn make people leave the game, and reduces the diversity of plays (a.k.a. everyone follows the meta, and plays the flavor-of-the-month faction because some factions/subfactions are so under the others in terms of power they're not fun to play anymore).
Notice that I don't think perfect balance is required for the game to be fun - mainly because I also think perfect balance is impossible to reach. But striving for a perfectly balanced game reduces a lot of the frustrations I've talked about, and make the meta move enough that people just don't play the same perfect build that works everytime.
Now let's say they add a Space Wolves subfaction, that is very much like the Space Marine faction but with unique units replacing some of the classic ones - or simply added to the roster, it doesn't really matter.
If all other things are equal (i.e. same doctrines availables, same stats on not-replaced units, etc.), the slight differences will make the subfaction either better (or worse) than the nearby faction. Maybe the new units are too good (or worse than the one they replace), maybe it's a better synergy between units. Maybe the difference isn't that important. But overall, if you take an average on all match-ups, it is fairly certain Space Marines (or Space Wolves) will be considered the most optimal choice - and as the differences are so few, why would people keep playing the faction that is at a disadvantage? People not caring about the lore won't see the point at least. So devs have created a new faction that has to be balanced like the others (= more work on each patch), while few people actually play the subfaction (or the faction this subfaction now supercedes).
If you make more changes however, with stat changes for some "codex" units, or maybe even unique doctrines... well you could reach balance more easily already, but that means you worked on a lot of units, and the interaction between them. That's a lot more work than you seemed to think it would be. Almost as much as working on an entirely new faction, which would certainly add much more diversity (if only graphically!) than a subfaction. Therefore, the most logical choice for the company making the game is to use their ressources to make something really different instead of something barely different - especially when it is already possible to play something really close to the "barely different" faction with a good choice of color scheme, tactics, doctrines, unit selection, maybe a special skin, and maybe a bit of imagination on some units that are not exactly like in the related codex.
I'm not saying "it's impossible to make subfactions work". I'm saying in my opinion, it's much more practical and reasonable to do it by adding progressively new doctrines and elite units related to those subfactions (and balancing them along the way: it's much easier to tweak the stats and elite point cost on this particular unit you just added than tweaking stats on multiple new units).
oLev
That's not a case of content rich but unbalanced mods being the most desirable type of gameplay but rather the case that by the time a game is ten years old, those are the kind of players that still stick around.
Chubbyninja89
That's kind of why I really think that all, if not many, of the various chapters and such should be put into the games at some point. The more options there are, the less likely there will be one super OP faction or army.
Chubbyninja89
You need to not try to be such a stuck up jerk about it all man, especially with a stupid line like "You have shown your true colors". But I wasn't meaning to say screw all balance, I was in a rush at the time of typing that comment, so I couldn't properly take the time to write the exact thing I wanted to get across.
And look at what I said to you earlier, or did you just choose to not read that? And what I'm saying further below in this comment.
Well, like I told CleanAndCleaner, the real reason I really want to see the various sub factions within each race is two fold.
Yeah cool stuff is one part of it, but the other is the fact that with more options, there'd be less chance for there to be one stupidly OP army or faction.
alphariusomegon1
Except in practice, all those factions have minimal real difference from their template beyond the cosmetic. Your own example basically proves they're indistinguishable from normal Marines save for various elements that are limited to the fluff for the most part. Besides, even if it was done they'd be called out for not being true to their original depiction or otherwise be dismantled by nitpicking. Even doctrines and new units themed to support a force similar to them won't be enough to distinguish them, since the subfactions often work in radically different ways from one another. It would require making an entirely new army for each subfactions, which still wouldn't play differently enough to justify making it its own force.
More importantly, there's this thing called a "budget" that they have to follow, and as a result any subfactions added will be nothing more than recolors. That's how it's been for the last two games and their expansions, and that's how it'll be for this one too.
DiggaNob
I was just saying that saying "Screw balance" is kind of a dumb way to say it, and I dunno... I guess I "was in a rush at the time of typing that comment." Also, how would having more factions make the game more balanced? That would just make it even more complicated.
Chubbyninja89
Well you're wrong, so too bad for you. And it's pretty funny how you people constantly try to twist words around.
I was just using that as a example of how it wouldn't be hard to create the various space marine chapters from the base space marine race. And there could be enough differences between the 1st founding chapters to allow for different play styles, and that doesn't just go for the SMs but also the ork klans and chaos gods. It's what makes the chapters and all different that makes them awesome and special.
You guys really actually do your research and learning the lore as well before just trying to shoot down something you don't really know anything about.
And with all the effort you guys putting into this in order to put it down, you're starting to sound like one of those entitled morons who want the game to be kept stupidly exploitable. You know the type of person. The ones who demand that the games be made easier, that more stuff be given to them, and so on and so on. But I may just be reading into it too much, but I might possibly be right.
Auric
To be honest I think it would be a cool idea, but I would prefer relic to prioritise getting 1 or 2 of the other races in first and giving them a good fleshing out before moving on to different flavours of space marine/ork/eldar. The problem with this is that if you're going to be realistic, Relic only have so much time/money to do these things, and unless this game is mega successful, I'm not sure if we'll see enough support to add every warhammer race and then add loads of sub factions after that.
I would be happier if I could see a full list of available doctrines available to each race. Maybe we can work through it by using appropriate doctrines and elite units to match what the chapter/craftworld/klan would typically use.
Andtaxes
Custom skins as Sub-factions is just peachy.
I don't think adding Space Wolves/Dark angels/etc specifically add anything at all that couldn't be added by just some DLC voice lines and skins. More over it ends up being "like X but better at Y" which is a rabbit hole I'd rather not go down.
In a broad sense I think there is ALOT of room for them in custom games where you aren't trying to be competitive but in a ranked etc environment throwing in subfactions that focus on a specific aspect of the meta in addition to elites and doctrines are overkill
Chubbyninja89
Well I was in a rush when I first said the whole "screw balance things. And what I really wanted to say was that if all the various chapters and sub factions were added into the/a game so that there's less of a chance that one race/faction will be the most overpowered. I don't want to Chaos or Eldar be the most ridiculously OP faction in the game. Do you understand what I'm talking about with that?
I just don't want the games to become yet another moron's paradise where idiots can spam this or that stupid cheap OP "tactic", and be able to win all the freaking time, you know, instead of actually using strategy and thinking ability.
Something they could do for Space Wolves is give the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard a ability like the Ork's WAAAGH! abilit, but that could be a ability for just the Wolf Lord as well. of course it could be renamed something like Fury of Russ or something to make it at least sound different. Mix that with the changes for their units, and you'd get a fairly good representation of the Space Wolves, but that's just simple version of it.