@Chubbyninja89 said:
Well I was in a rush when I first said the whole "screw balance things. And what I really wanted to say was that if all the various chapters and sub factions were added into the/a game so that there's less of a chance that one race/faction will be the most overpowered. I don't want to Chaos or Eldar be the most ridiculously OP faction in the game. Do you understand what I'm talking about with that?
I just don't want the games to become yet another moron's paradise where idiots can spam this or that stupid cheap OP "tactic", and be able to win all the freaking time, you know, instead of actually using strategy and thinking ability.
Maybe there wouldn't be one faction dominating the game, but there would certainly be biased match-ups.
Fictive example: Biel-tan Eldar, like all other faction, has roughly 50% win ratio overall. At a glance, you could say that's wonderful. However,watching the numbers more closely, you would notice they have a 98% win ratio against Space Wolves, and a 3% win ratio against Blood Angels. The first game is uninteresting because you have almost no chance to lose, the second is very frustrating because you know you'll lose right when the faction of the other player appears.
The ideal situation is a 50%win-50%lose ratio between each faction, and it is always easier to obtain this with fewer factions than with a lot (which is why a lot of people think 3 races, ala Starcraft, is a perfect number, because it's high enough that there is some diversity but also low enough that it isn't too hard to balance it all, allegedly), because a change on a faction affect all its match-ups.
I was just saying that saying "Screw balance" is kind of a dumb way to say it, and I dunno... I guess I "was in a rush at the time of typing that comment." Also, how would having more factions make the game more balanced? That would just make it even more complicated.
Well I was in a rush when I first said the whole "screw balance things. And what I really wanted to say was that if all the various chapters and sub factions were added into the/a game so that there's less of a chance that one race/faction will be the most overpowered. I don't want to Chaos or Eldar be the most ridiculously OP faction in the game. Do you understand what I'm talking about with that?
I just don't want the games to become yet another moron's paradise where idiots can spam this or that stupid cheap OP "tactic", and be able to win all the freaking time, you know, instead of actually using strategy and thinking ability.
Something they could do for Space Wolves is give the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard a ability like the Ork's WAAAGH! abilit, but that could be a ability for just the Wolf Lord as well. of course it could be renamed something like Fury of Russ or something to make it at least sound different. Mix that with the changes for their units, and you'd get a fairly good representation of the Space Wolves, but that's just simple version of it.
I was just saying that saying "Screw balance" is kind of a dumb way to say it, and I dunno... I guess I "was in a rush at the time of typing that comment." Also, how would having more factions make the game more balanced? That would just make it even more complicated.
Well I was in a rush when I first said the whole "screw balance things. And what I really wanted to say was that if all the various chapters and sub factions were added into the/a game so that there's less of a chance that one race/faction will be the most overpowered. I don't want to Chaos or Eldar be the most ridiculously OP faction in the game. Do you understand what I'm talking about with that?
If you add more factions/subfactions to the game, it will increase the chance that any faction at all will be OP, where as if there are only a few, there is a lower chance of any being OP, and it will be easier to balance, do to the fact that they only need to change it according to a few other factions. That is what I meant by "That would just make it even more complicated."
@Silk said:
The ideal situation is a 50%win-50%lose ratio between each faction, and it is always easier to obtain this with fewer factions than with a lot (which is why a lot of people think 3 races, ala Starcraft, is a perfect number, because it's high enough that there is some diversity but also low enough that it isn't too hard to balance it all, allegedly), because a change on a faction affect all its match-ups.
How would you know? Seriously. Ho would you know?
You talk like you'd know exactly what races would be the best and would always win. When you don't.
And it'd really just be about figuring out how to use the various chapters and such, and they could balance it. You just don't like the idea of the variety that could be brought to the games.
It's funny, because you're really sounding like one of those people who likes to have some cheap stupid way to win and who feel threatened when there's a possibility that your precious exploitable crap will be changed.
More factions absolutely increase the difficulty in balancing the game as a whole. This is a simple truth just by the numbers; 2 lots of 4 units are harder to balance than 4 units by themselves.
Speculation that three races is the "ideal" is entirely arguable, but the difficulty in balancing more races and more units vs. less races and less units is pretty undeniable. One of the few basic constants in game design and balance.
@DiggaNob said:
If you add more factions/subfactions to the game, it will increase the chance that any faction at all will be OP, where as if there are only a few, there is a lower chance of any being OP, and it will be easier to balance, do to the fact that they only need to change it according to a few other factions. That is what I meant by "That would just make it even more complicated."
It's funny how you say that. Because the same thing could be said about having only a few races. And don't you dare try to just blow that fact off.
But I'll give you a good example of what I'm talking about.
In the kinda "older" game Total War: Shogun 2, there came to be two armies in multi player after the really stupid expansion called Fall of the Samurai. The FoTS army was ridiculously overpowered. Not only did they have more "modern" firearms, but most of their gun troops could hold their own in melee.
And then Rome 2 wasn't much better for which factions were OP. The Romans were the biggest bunch of crap in the entire game. They NEVER got nerfed for anything, where as plenty of the "barbarian" factions were nerfed and changed and weakened.
@Gorb said:
More factions absolutely increase the difficulty in balancing the game as a whole. This is a simple truth just by the numbers; 2 lots of 4 units are harder to balance than 4 units by themselves.
Speculation that three races is the "ideal" is entirely arguable, but the difficulty in balancing more races and more units vs. less races and less units is pretty undeniable. One of the few basic constants in game design and balance.
Well I'm just sick and tired of all the other various factions other than the stupid Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens keep getting screwed and never get the treatment they deserve.
The devs just need to go the extra mile, then, not only would they make better games, but could make a lore more money from the games.
The Ultramarines have only featured in a story sense in Winter Assault (IIRC), and in Retribution two other Chapters also received cosmetic DLC (the Dark Angels and the Imperial Fists). I'm sure going forwards we'll see all sorts of visual customisation (if the Masters of War skin pack is anything to go by).
The Blood Ravens are Relic' official Chapter, so the Dawn of War tale revolves around them. There's no escaping them; they're the Chapter that represents the franchise. Created for Relic, for use in the series.
@Chubbyninja89 said:
How would you know? Seriously. Ho would you know?
I just explained it to you!
because a change on a faction affect all its match-ups
What is difficult to understand here?
Let's say there are 10 factions instead of 3. When you change a unit in one faction, instead of modifying (for example) 9 match-ups (33), you would affect 100 (1010), which means you may have caused balance problems in 99 other match-up to save one, instead of 8. It makes the balance really harder and longer (don't even think of that) for the devs - and they have other things to do than balancing!
You talk like you'd know exactly what races would be the best and would always win. When you don't.
This is absolutely not what I said, I could have used other factions and the problem would still be here.
And it'd really just be about figuring out how to use the various chapters and such, and they could balance it. You just don't like the idea of the variety that could be brought to the games.
It's funny, because you're really sounding like one of those people who likes to have some cheap stupid way to win and who feel threatened when there's a possibility that your precious exploitable crap will be changed.
This is absolutely false too. In an ideal world I would be all for this. But this is not an ideal world, balancing needs time and money, and I'd rather have them using time and money on major races AND campaign AND maps AND mechanics etc. rather than on balancing. Because YES, as a lot of people already tried to explain to you in this thread, it is more difficult to balance 10 races than 3.
EDIT: it's not that I don't think Relic can make a lot of factions, of course they can. It's that I don't think they can manage that much factions afterwards. Not with their gameplay being deeper than a puddle of mud anyway.
The game can balance itself out , even with 10 factions, with all the doctrines available in theory there should be enough choices for every matchup. But we would need to see what race the opponent plays and the elite drafts just like in a MOBA. The pregame drafting is just too important to have random build go vs random build. Else it cannot be a competitive game at all, the only possibility would be private tournaments with custom rules.
It’s hard to see how impactful doctrines/elites are going to be in a game, particularly what kind of strategies they’ll bring together, without having played the game.
But I’d argue that a pick/ban mechanics, as suggested above, in tournament and in ranked would be tricky to have. In one hand it’s going to be hard for players to go blindly against each other, without knowing what kind of doctrines/elites, as one particular set of doctrines/elites might be better suited to deal against another, so having the possibility to have intel of your opponent’s pregame choices is going to allow you to make the right decisions. On the other hand I can see how the game might become tedious because both players will counter pick each other, which might happen if the game hasn’t enough diversity in the strategies available. If I take the example of Dota 2, it shows that with good diversity you can pretty much play anything even against the meta composition, with (I think) 10 elites and 12 doctrines per races we can hope that they’ll be unique enough, and balanced enough, to allow enough diversity in the pregame choices. Therefore, if it’s the case, I won’t have any objection to implement one or two doctrines/elites emulating different sub-factions.
@alg0rythm said:
The game can balance itself out , even with 10 factions, with all the doctrines available in theory there should be enough choices for every matchup. But we would need to see what race the opponent plays and the elite drafts just like in a MOBA. The pregame drafting is just too important to have random build go vs random build. Else it cannot be a competitive game at all, the only possibility would be private tournaments with custom rules.
Absolutely this. It doesnt make much sense having the pregame draft at all if i can only see what the opponent picked hereafter. This will make for an even more stale meta because everybody will opt for the most universal build that works everytime instead of specialising for a specific matchup. Both players/teams should pick alternately and the draft has to be visible.
I think these would be interesting and viable custom games but likely not something that would drop into mainstream play.
When you boil it down what you're actually picking are doctrines of that specific faction...which we already have. I think it would be very akin to COH2's commander system where you could counterpick some ones doc.
@alg0rythm said:
The game can balance itself out , even with 10 factions, with all the doctrines available in theory there should be enough choices for every matchup. But we would need to see what race the opponent plays and the elite drafts just like in a MOBA. The pregame drafting is just too important to have random build go vs random build. Else it cannot be a competitive game at all, the only possibility would be private tournaments with custom rules.
That's kind of what I'm saying. The game would find a balance.
Maybe this kind of tactic might work with this faction if you do it this way, but it might not work if you do it against this other faction in the same way.
Then they should make all kinds of the legendary characters as the playable characters with a single specific elite unit they bring into battle with them.
@Vlad said:
This is not so important! There are millions of other shortcomings
What are you talking about?
The main thing I'm talking about is how the various factions within the races like the 1st founding chapters and ork klans never get represented properly in games.
For instance. When the best the Space Wolves get is a stupid mobile game and Sanctus Reach, there's a problem. And it's not just them.
I really like how Total War: Warhammer released races in pairs. I might be wrong but I've never seen a dark eldar army in DoW either. I'd love to see sub factions make an appearance like this. Introduce two subfactions at a time with they're own rules and skins.
I seriously don't understand the ++heresy redacted++ mindset of people asking for more factions since 3 is more than enough. Adding more factions would just ruin the balance LMAO. wh40k fanboyism is strong among the dumbfuck players here
@MajBumWhistler said:
I really like how Total War: Warhammer released races in pairs. I might be wrong but I've never seen a dark eldar army in DoW either. I'd love to see sub factions make an appearance like this. Introduce two subfactions at a time with they're own rules and skins.
Well actually, the Dark Eldar were in DoW Soulstorm. It was disappointing compared to Dark Crusade, not terrible, just disappointing.
And that actually sounds like a great idea, and it'd be a great way to make DLC without just making it simple reskins. At least make it good reskins, not just a stupid color change.
And I'm actually excited for TW:W2, though they could've done a better job with the name.
@Sascas said:
I seriously don't understand the ++heresy redacted++ mindset of people asking for more factions since 3 is more than enough. Adding more factions would just ruin the balance LMAO. wh40k fanboyism is strong among the dumbfuck players here
How cute. A little troll.
Though it does sound like you're one of those people who really likes having a stupidly exploitable game rather than a more fun and balanced game that provides a challenge and doesn't just hand you a victory.
But your trolling "game" is so bad it's hilarious. Please try to come back when you've matured a little and are willing to act like an adult, or if you can think of something actually cleaver to say.
@MajBumWhistler said:
I really like how Total War: Warhammer released races in pairs. I might be wrong but I've never seen a dark eldar army in DoW either. I'd love to see sub factions make an appearance like this. Introduce two subfactions at a time with they're own rules and skins.
Well actually, the Dark Eldar were in DoW Soulstorm. It was disappointing compared to Dark Crusade, not terrible, just disappointing.
And that actually sounds like a great idea, and it'd be a great way to make DLC without just making it simple reskins. At least make it good reskins, not just a stupid color change.
And I'm actually excited for TW:W2, though they could've done a better job with the name.
I just can't believe how quick they churning out 2 and the size of the map from what I've seen its going to be epic.
@Chubbyninja89 said:
Are they seriously making this game a MOBA?
Then they should make all kinds of the legendary characters as the playable characters with a single specific elite unit they bring into battle with them.
See if I'm understanding this I just can't understand it. How is a draft a MOBA thing?
Like what is the functionality of a draft? It's the commencement of war. Unless it's a total first contact event matching two blind armies against each other makes no sense. What a draft basically represents in a RTS sense is the pre-troop deployment & resource allocation of your forces for the coming battle & your undisclosed manoeuvres that impact your foes ability to do the same.
A draft at it's core is a true strategic battle. Also we could approach a draft in two ways:
1. Draft picking Elites & Doctrines - The familiar one from MOBAs.
2. Draft picking Visibility of Elites & Doctrines - This draft looks to cover information about a foes pre-selected loadout to make further informed strategies.
What I can't seem to understand with the elite & doctrine system is so far many seem to talk about it exclusively as an elite system only when in fact that's so far from the truth of what it is. Yes we are picking 3 strong elite units & their skills but that's really the smaller of the effect of picking them. What they bring is 3 Elite Doctrines with them that modify your line units. Combined with the 3 Elite Doctrines we also get 3 Army Doctrines that further modifying your line units (note after elite lvl 8 Command Doctrines can also be used as Army Doctrines).
So isn't the elite/doctrine system really a faction gameplay customisation system at it's core. And when we think about a system that customises a factions gameplay isn't this the exact idea of what a sub-faction is towards a factions. A customised version a faction but still using core elements that still identifies it as part of that faction.
@Bezagron said:
See if I'm understanding this I just can't understand it. How is a draft a MOBA thing?
Like what is the functionality of a draft? It's the commencement of war. Unless it's a total first contact event matching two blind armies against each other makes no sense. What a draft basically represents in a RTS sense is the pre-troop deployment & resource allocation of your forces for the coming battle & your undisclosed manoeuvres that impact your foes ability to do the same.
A draft at it's core is a true strategic battle. Also we could approach a draft in two ways:
1. Draft picking Elites & Doctrines - The familiar one from MOBAs.
2. Draft picking Visibility of Elites & Doctrines - This draft looks to cover information about a foes pre-selected loadout to make further informed strategies.
What I can't seem to understand with the elite & doctrine system is so far many seem to talk about it exclusively as an elite system only when in fact that's so far from the truth of what it is. Yes we are picking 3 strong elite units & their skills but that's really the smaller of the effect of picking them. What they bring is 3 Elite Doctrines with them that modify your line units. Combined with the 3 Elite Doctrines we also get 3 Army Doctrines that further modifying your line units (note after elite lvl 8 Command Doctrines can also be used as Army Doctrines).
So isn't the elite/doctrine system really a faction gameplay customisation system at it's core. And when we think about a system that customises a factions gameplay isn't this the exact idea of what a sub-faction is towards a factions. A customised version a faction but still using core elements that still identifies it as part of that faction.
The only reason I ask if it's going to be a MOBA or not is because I've seen a lot of people bring it up, and that kinda worries me a little. Just that the devs might've been jumping on the MOBA bandwagon and all.
@MajBumWhistler said:
I just can't believe how quick they churning out 2 and the size of the map from what I've seen its going to be epic.
What do you mean? Are you talking about DoW2 or 3?
If the size of the maps is going to be nice and big, then that sounds' pretty good to me.
No the annoucement for TW:W2, DLC only just finished for the first game. From what I saw of some maps on youtube DoW 3 does look nice and big, but its never big enough!
@Chubbyninja89 said:
The only reason I ask if it's going to be a MOBA or not is because I've seen a lot of people bring it up, and that kinda worries me a little. Just that the devs might've been jumping on the MOBA bandwagon and all.
I guess that really comes down to what you consider a MOBA.
DoW 3 has at a minimum 3 structures (shield generator, turret & power core) that need to be destroyed. 1st shield generator before turret can be attacked then turret before power core can be destroyed. Mainly these really seem to be added to stop early cheesy rush tactics.
It has 3 elite units you take into a match that have multiple abilities but they don't lvl throughout the match and they need resources before they can be deployed.
But you still build a base & control a larger army that you tier up throughout the match. Also you still need to fight over resource point spread throughout the map. Overall it looks to be more of a DoW 1 combat with DoW 2 heroes (elite) added in. Also I have heard some people mention early game feels alot loke DoW 2 with the small number of units & that you don't want to lose them.
There has been talk all over the forum of the elite/doctrine draft system being a form of auto-balance, and this seems highly presumptuous to me. There has been no indication that the devs intend this as a pick/counterpick mechanism.
The praise @Bezagron makes of drafts involving strategy and intrigue is already present in Starcraft in the form of scouting your opponents building selection and projecting their strategy thereby. Drafting is entirely a MOBA simplification of this phenomenon so it's not surprising that it feeds into people's paranoia of this being a DoW moba conversion.
In truth all of the elites and all of the doctrines could be in the game and accessed by a research system as in any classic RTS. I find it more likely that these choices were removed from the real-time portion in an attempt to streamline it and keep the player's attention on the battles, as they've said to be their design philosophy with other elements. Their intention is to make a game with lots of death and explosions and deciding the game at the drafting phase before anyone gets shot is not in keeping with that at all. ("Dead Man Walking Syndrome", as they describe it.)
So to @alg0rythm 's point the draft should not be expected to shoulder all balance and truncating the roster was the right move.
Perhaps the 40k fanboys should also take a look at the actual rules of their favorite factions as well as their fluff- if they did that, they'd see that most of the supposed "differences" between factions extend to a handful of unique units that wouldn't have a place in the DoW series in the first place and situational stuff that Doctrines would be expected to approximate anyway. Other than that, the sub-factions are little more than recolors- you could easily create "Space Wolves" just by employing a buttload of Assault Marines and doctrines supporting their use, for example. If you can't be content with that, tough luck- DoW was never made to act as a perfect copy of the tabletop game and never will.
And for the record, if you really want the different chapters depicted in a way that satisfies your OCD, play Space Hulk Ascension. It's not much, but it's all you'll ever get for one simple reason:
Those Ultrasmurf and Blood Ravens fans make up the vast majority of Space Marine fans who play DoW, so pandering to the other factions would be a gamble whose reward would likely be lower than its risk. Stop thinking like a fanboy and start thinking like a businessman, and all those decisions that make you mad suddenly start to make sense. After all, why should they spend time pandering to the minor factions when odds are you'll buy the game either way? Heck, even if you didn't buy it what's your non-purchase going to matter compared to the thousands of people who won't care about their absence? It's all about the bottom line, don't you forget it.
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Silk
Maybe there wouldn't be one faction dominating the game, but there would certainly be biased match-ups.
Fictive example: Biel-tan Eldar, like all other faction, has roughly 50% win ratio overall. At a glance, you could say that's wonderful. However,watching the numbers more closely, you would notice they have a 98% win ratio against Space Wolves, and a 3% win ratio against Blood Angels. The first game is uninteresting because you have almost no chance to lose, the second is very frustrating because you know you'll lose right when the faction of the other player appears.
The ideal situation is a 50%win-50%lose ratio between each faction, and it is always easier to obtain this with fewer factions than with a lot (which is why a lot of people think 3 races, ala Starcraft, is a perfect number, because it's high enough that there is some diversity but also low enough that it isn't too hard to balance it all, allegedly), because a change on a faction affect all its match-ups.
DiggaNob
If you add more factions/subfactions to the game, it will increase the chance that any faction at all will be OP, where as if there are only a few, there is a lower chance of any being OP, and it will be easier to balance, do to the fact that they only need to change it according to a few other factions. That is what I meant by "That would just make it even more complicated."
Chubbyninja89
How would you know? Seriously. Ho would you know?
You talk like you'd know exactly what races would be the best and would always win. When you don't.
And it'd really just be about figuring out how to use the various chapters and such, and they could balance it. You just don't like the idea of the variety that could be brought to the games.
It's funny, because you're really sounding like one of those people who likes to have some cheap stupid way to win and who feel threatened when there's a possibility that your precious exploitable crap will be changed.
Gorb
More factions absolutely increase the difficulty in balancing the game as a whole. This is a simple truth just by the numbers; 2 lots of 4 units are harder to balance than 4 units by themselves.
Speculation that three races is the "ideal" is entirely arguable, but the difficulty in balancing more races and more units vs. less races and less units is pretty undeniable. One of the few basic constants in game design and balance.
Chubbyninja89
It's funny how you say that. Because the same thing could be said about having only a few races. And don't you dare try to just blow that fact off.
But I'll give you a good example of what I'm talking about.
In the kinda "older" game Total War: Shogun 2, there came to be two armies in multi player after the really stupid expansion called Fall of the Samurai. The FoTS army was ridiculously overpowered. Not only did they have more "modern" firearms, but most of their gun troops could hold their own in melee.
And then Rome 2 wasn't much better for which factions were OP. The Romans were the biggest bunch of crap in the entire game. They NEVER got nerfed for anything, where as plenty of the "barbarian" factions were nerfed and changed and weakened.
Chubbyninja89
Well I'm just sick and tired of all the other various factions other than the stupid Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens keep getting screwed and never get the treatment they deserve.
The devs just need to go the extra mile, then, not only would they make better games, but could make a lore more money from the games.
Gorb
The Ultramarines have only featured in a story sense in Winter Assault (IIRC), and in Retribution two other Chapters also received cosmetic DLC (the Dark Angels and the Imperial Fists). I'm sure going forwards we'll see all sorts of visual customisation (if the Masters of War skin pack is anything to go by).
The Blood Ravens are Relic' official Chapter, so the Dawn of War tale revolves around them. There's no escaping them; they're the Chapter that represents the franchise. Created for Relic, for use in the series.
Silk
I just explained it to you!
What is difficult to understand here?
Let's say there are 10 factions instead of 3. When you change a unit in one faction, instead of modifying (for example) 9 match-ups (33), you would affect 100 (1010), which means you may have caused balance problems in 99 other match-up to save one, instead of 8. It makes the balance really harder and longer (don't even think of that) for the devs - and they have other things to do than balancing!
This is absolutely not what I said, I could have used other factions and the problem would still be here.
This is absolutely false too. In an ideal world I would be all for this. But this is not an ideal world, balancing needs time and money, and I'd rather have them using time and money on major races AND campaign AND maps AND mechanics etc. rather than on balancing. Because YES, as a lot of people already tried to explain to you in this thread, it is more difficult to balance 10 races than 3.
EDIT: it's not that I don't think Relic can make a lot of factions, of course they can. It's that I don't think they can manage that much factions afterwards. Not with their gameplay being deeper than a puddle of mud anyway.
alg0rythm
The game can balance itself out , even with 10 factions, with all the doctrines available in theory there should be enough choices for every matchup. But we would need to see what race the opponent plays and the elite drafts just like in a MOBA. The pregame drafting is just too important to have random build go vs random build. Else it cannot be a competitive game at all, the only possibility would be private tournaments with custom rules.
UnknownRobot
It’s hard to see how impactful doctrines/elites are going to be in a game, particularly what kind of strategies they’ll bring together, without having played the game.
But I’d argue that a pick/ban mechanics, as suggested above, in tournament and in ranked would be tricky to have. In one hand it’s going to be hard for players to go blindly against each other, without knowing what kind of doctrines/elites, as one particular set of doctrines/elites might be better suited to deal against another, so having the possibility to have intel of your opponent’s pregame choices is going to allow you to make the right decisions. On the other hand I can see how the game might become tedious because both players will counter pick each other, which might happen if the game hasn’t enough diversity in the strategies available. If I take the example of Dota 2, it shows that with good diversity you can pretty much play anything even against the meta composition, with (I think) 10 elites and 12 doctrines per races we can hope that they’ll be unique enough, and balanced enough, to allow enough diversity in the pregame choices. Therefore, if it’s the case, I won’t have any objection to implement one or two doctrines/elites emulating different sub-factions.
Shardex
Absolutely this. It doesnt make much sense having the pregame draft at all if i can only see what the opponent picked hereafter. This will make for an even more stale meta because everybody will opt for the most universal build that works everytime instead of specialising for a specific matchup. Both players/teams should pick alternately and the draft has to be visible.
Andtaxes
I think these would be interesting and viable custom games but likely not something that would drop into mainstream play.
When you boil it down what you're actually picking are doctrines of that specific faction...which we already have. I think it would be very akin to COH2's commander system where you could counterpick some ones doc.
Chubbyninja89
That's kind of what I'm saying. The game would find a balance.
Maybe this kind of tactic might work with this faction if you do it this way, but it might not work if you do it against this other faction in the same way.
Chubbyninja89
Are they seriously making this game a MOBA?
Then they should make all kinds of the legendary characters as the playable characters with a single specific elite unit they bring into battle with them.
Vlad
This is not so important! There are millions of other shortcomings
Chubbyninja89
What are you talking about?
The main thing I'm talking about is how the various factions within the races like the 1st founding chapters and ork klans never get represented properly in games.
For instance. When the best the Space Wolves get is a stupid mobile game and Sanctus Reach, there's a problem. And it's not just them.
MajBumWhistler
I really like how Total War: Warhammer released races in pairs. I might be wrong but I've never seen a dark eldar army in DoW either. I'd love to see sub factions make an appearance like this. Introduce two subfactions at a time with they're own rules and skins.
Sascas
I seriously don't understand the ++heresy redacted++ mindset of people asking for more factions since 3 is more than enough. Adding more factions would just ruin the balance LMAO. wh40k fanboyism is strong among the dumbfuck players here
Chubbyninja89
Well actually, the Dark Eldar were in DoW Soulstorm. It was disappointing compared to Dark Crusade, not terrible, just disappointing.
And that actually sounds like a great idea, and it'd be a great way to make DLC without just making it simple reskins. At least make it good reskins, not just a stupid color change.
And I'm actually excited for TW:W2, though they could've done a better job with the name.
Chubbyninja89
How cute. A little troll.
Though it does sound like you're one of those people who really likes having a stupidly exploitable game rather than a more fun and balanced game that provides a challenge and doesn't just hand you a victory.
But your trolling "game" is so bad it's hilarious. Please try to come back when you've matured a little and are willing to act like an adult, or if you can think of something actually cleaver to say.
So begone pitiful troll.
MajBumWhistler
I just can't believe how quick they churning out 2 and the size of the map from what I've seen its going to be epic.
Bezagron
See if I'm understanding this I just can't understand it. How is a draft a MOBA thing?
Like what is the functionality of a draft? It's the commencement of war. Unless it's a total first contact event matching two blind armies against each other makes no sense. What a draft basically represents in a RTS sense is the pre-troop deployment & resource allocation of your forces for the coming battle & your undisclosed manoeuvres that impact your foes ability to do the same.
A draft at it's core is a true strategic battle. Also we could approach a draft in two ways:
1. Draft picking Elites & Doctrines - The familiar one from MOBAs.
2. Draft picking Visibility of Elites & Doctrines - This draft looks to cover information about a foes pre-selected loadout to make further informed strategies.
What I can't seem to understand with the elite & doctrine system is so far many seem to talk about it exclusively as an elite system only when in fact that's so far from the truth of what it is. Yes we are picking 3 strong elite units & their skills but that's really the smaller of the effect of picking them. What they bring is 3 Elite Doctrines with them that modify your line units. Combined with the 3 Elite Doctrines we also get 3 Army Doctrines that further modifying your line units (note after elite lvl 8 Command Doctrines can also be used as Army Doctrines).
So isn't the elite/doctrine system really a faction gameplay customisation system at it's core. And when we think about a system that customises a factions gameplay isn't this the exact idea of what a sub-faction is towards a factions. A customised version a faction but still using core elements that still identifies it as part of that faction.
Chubbyninja89
The only reason I ask if it's going to be a MOBA or not is because I've seen a lot of people bring it up, and that kinda worries me a little. Just that the devs might've been jumping on the MOBA bandwagon and all.
Chubbyninja89
What do you mean? Are you talking about DoW2 or 3?
If the size of the maps is going to be nice and big, then that sounds' pretty good to me.
MajBumWhistler
No the annoucement for TW:W2, DLC only just finished for the first game. From what I saw of some maps on youtube DoW 3 does look nice and big, but its never big enough!
Bezagron
I guess that really comes down to what you consider a MOBA.
DoW 3 has at a minimum 3 structures (shield generator, turret & power core) that need to be destroyed. 1st shield generator before turret can be attacked then turret before power core can be destroyed. Mainly these really seem to be added to stop early cheesy rush tactics.
It has 3 elite units you take into a match that have multiple abilities but they don't lvl throughout the match and they need resources before they can be deployed.
But you still build a base & control a larger army that you tier up throughout the match. Also you still need to fight over resource point spread throughout the map. Overall it looks to be more of a DoW 1 combat with DoW 2 heroes (elite) added in. Also I have heard some people mention early game feels alot loke DoW 2 with the small number of units & that you don't want to lose them.
Sascas
Lmao chubby you dismiss me as yet I make valid point too difficult for your minuscule brain to handle!
Jelly
There has been talk all over the forum of the elite/doctrine draft system being a form of auto-balance, and this seems highly presumptuous to me. There has been no indication that the devs intend this as a pick/counterpick mechanism.
The praise @Bezagron makes of drafts involving strategy and intrigue is already present in Starcraft in the form of scouting your opponents building selection and projecting their strategy thereby. Drafting is entirely a MOBA simplification of this phenomenon so it's not surprising that it feeds into people's paranoia of this being a DoW moba conversion.
In truth all of the elites and all of the doctrines could be in the game and accessed by a research system as in any classic RTS. I find it more likely that these choices were removed from the real-time portion in an attempt to streamline it and keep the player's attention on the battles, as they've said to be their design philosophy with other elements. Their intention is to make a game with lots of death and explosions and deciding the game at the drafting phase before anyone gets shot is not in keeping with that at all. ("Dead Man Walking Syndrome", as they describe it.)
So to @alg0rythm 's point the draft should not be expected to shoulder all balance and truncating the roster was the right move.
(edited out some redundancy)
alphariusomegon1
Perhaps the 40k fanboys should also take a look at the actual rules of their favorite factions as well as their fluff- if they did that, they'd see that most of the supposed "differences" between factions extend to a handful of unique units that wouldn't have a place in the DoW series in the first place and situational stuff that Doctrines would be expected to approximate anyway. Other than that, the sub-factions are little more than recolors- you could easily create "Space Wolves" just by employing a buttload of Assault Marines and doctrines supporting their use, for example. If you can't be content with that, tough luck- DoW was never made to act as a perfect copy of the tabletop game and never will.
And for the record, if you really want the different chapters depicted in a way that satisfies your OCD, play Space Hulk Ascension. It's not much, but it's all you'll ever get for one simple reason:
Those Ultrasmurf and Blood Ravens fans make up the vast majority of Space Marine fans who play DoW, so pandering to the other factions would be a gamble whose reward would likely be lower than its risk. Stop thinking like a fanboy and start thinking like a businessman, and all those decisions that make you mad suddenly start to make sense. After all, why should they spend time pandering to the minor factions when odds are you'll buy the game either way? Heck, even if you didn't buy it what's your non-purchase going to matter compared to the thousands of people who won't care about their absence? It's all about the bottom line, don't you forget it.