DoW2 is more "every soldier is important" and with the cover system you have enough time to mikro your units and hold them alive.
Dow3 ist mostly about Makro, you have huge armys and soldiers die fast. The single marine is not so much important.
Where is the "huge armies"? The army sizes in this game don't even match DoW1 so far.
Are you sure, or is that just perspective? The game is "zoomed out" further. Also someone did a calculation using DOW3 squad numbers and population costs and posted it somewhere on the forum that you can have roughly the same amount of SM and quite a few more Ork and Eldar units than in DOW1.
Am I the only one who remembers that the basic Tac SM squads in DoW 1 weren't anything special either? They felt more like grunts than superhuman warriors then, and it's difficult to create mechanical in-game balance around every SM basically being a godly hero in his own right. Sometimes concessions have to be made.
DoW2 is more "every soldier is important" and with the cover system you have enough time to mikro your units and hold them alive.
Dow3 ist mostly about Makro, you have huge armys and soldiers die fast. The single marine is not so much important.
Where is the "huge armies"? The army sizes in this game don't even match DoW1 so far.
For me arnys looks bigger, both in quantity and quality. Maybe the small units and the titans dissort the picture but it looks bigger to me. Or its the same size but we see more at the sale time then before.
@kric1991 said:
DoW had 9 space marines per squad, 10 plus a sergeant. That is in line with the codex, not sure why they broke it up into 5's for DoW3.
Actually they had 8 marines + a sergeant, giving a grand total of 9. I remember because it annoyed me an unreasonable amount! 5 is more in line, standard combat squad size.
Additional, the Space Marines in DoW3 are extremely squashy. They should retain their numbers and be buffed. Orks should be able to have 3 or 4 times the army size of SM to make it accurate. If SM are so squashy now, I can't even imagine the IG...the IG is all about mass numbers. If they don't do that justice I wont buy whatever DLC they come in.
I think a lot of things in this game are pretty squishie, with marines being at the top of the pile, but still a bit squishie. Bearing in mind the amount of stuff that is in this game which can take the average marine apart (Jain Zar, Knights of all types, Nobz), I'm not really upset about that. Even if I were...
@PrimaGoosa said:
Am I the only one who remembers that the basic Tac SM squads in DoW 1 weren't anything special either? They felt more like grunts than superhuman warriors then, and it's difficult to create mechanical in-game balance around every SM basically being a godly hero in his own right. Sometimes concessions have to be made.
@kric1991 said:
Additional, the Space Marines in DoW3 are extremely squashy. They should retain their numbers and be buffed. Orks should be able to have 3 or 4 times the army size of SM to make it accurate. If SM are so squashy now, I can't even imagine the IG...the IG is all about mass numbers. If they don't do that justice I wont buy whatever DLC they come in.
Well, it's not first discussion I'm talking about it. I was predicting that Astartes will be "guardsmenised" just by looking at first Dawn of War III screens.
In regards to Astartes Chapter Size. There are actually several Chapters that have way more than 1,000 Warriors. The Black Templar supposedly have over 6,000 spread across their fleets and the Space Wolves never adhered to the Codex really, so it's been assumed that they have over 1,000 warriors as well. When the Space Wolves fought against Magnus on their homewrold years after the Horus Heresy they had 2,500-3,000 warriors in all; and this is after the legions were split and restricted.
Yes, there are exceptions. By normal chapters I meant Codex size standards chapters which means most of the chapters (sorry for being unclear again)
@Auric said:
I think a lot of things in this game are pretty squishie, with marines being at the top of the pile, but still a bit squishie. Bearing in mind the amount of stuff that is in this game which can take the average marine apart (Jain Zar, Knights of all types, Nobz)
Astartes should be average nob sized (around 9 feet tall)
@DiggaNob said:
Orks seems to die like pansy Eldar now... at least from what I see in the videos...
Well when Ork will wear an armor instead of a t-shirt, they will survive more ^^
More seriously, if Space Marines were really like they are described in many books, they would be near unkillable and impossible to fight against in a "fair" environment.
"Give me 1000 guardsmen or 100 space marines", do we really want to see squads of 50 guardsmen? ^^
@BUTI said:
Yes, it's truth, 1st company fall but they were the heroes of Macragge. Fighting at the maelstrom of battle among untold billions of Tyranids, they destroyed the most of the whole hive-fleet.
You ignored entirely the most important part of his point: they were not alone. The first company didn't do all the job. the Ultramar Planetary Defense Force was there too, as well as the Imperial Navy which did almost all the work in space. Without them, I'm pretty sure the Ultramarines would never have been able to hold.
Space Wolves are totally different from the rest of the Astartes. They even drink poisons to actually get drunk like mortals which would be unthinkable in other chapters.
The daily routine I posted doesn't concern Space Wolves though. And you missed my point: here's the part of your post I was answering to.
Astartes are always during battles and they don't have too much time to organize their strikes. No matter how much Astartes in the company, strike cruisers are mostly attacking without waiting for anything to support them.
I was pointing out that they indeed have time between battles, and have time to organize their strikes.
Astartes used to leave their mortal lives behind. People they knew as mortals usually die of old age.
This is true in most case, this is not true of Salamanders. Again, it's just an example of time spent by Marines outside of battle.
You was the one talking about changing.
Ho, so I totally misunderstood the first post of this dicussion and you're entirely OK with the way Marines are currently depicted in the game then. Great, it was nice to discuss with you, glad we reached an agreement.
Also, that's nitpicking but they actually have a bit more than 1000 Marines on average, since Dreadnoughts and 'officers' (Captains, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, etc.) don't count in the total.
I didn't said that Blood Ravens got 1000 Marines. I just said that Astartes chapters got 1000 Astartes at max and only the most significant chapters reach those numbers.
I just said in the bit you quoted that the maximum is more than 1000 Marines.
Or are you moving the point about the Blood Ravens not being a great chapter enough to reach the maximum number? I guess I can receive that argument, it's true that they're not primogenitors or anything. But that's true only for the campaign though, in Multiplayer people will play (mostly) the most successful chapters, their own original chapter (which can be a huge one), or just colors they like because they don't care about the lore.
There had been countless occasions on the fluff where Eldar massacre Space Marines, so I fail to see how that is farfetched.
Battle of Macragge is one of the most canon things in Warhammer there is.
True. But I fail to see how a battle between Tyranids and Ultramarines (among others) relates to the topic at hand. Reminder that the argument was that Eldar are roughly on par with Marines.
You asked me "how would you make them lore friendly". Because there need to be balance as well I has to mention guardsmen.
And again I fail to see how putting a Space Marine in a middle of a squad of Guardsmen would be more lore friendly when the two entities can work on their own.
You got right, Astartes are independent but they used to fight and even cooperate with mortals as well.
They still do so, but not all of them and/or not always.
The same could be said about the Mechanicum, or the PDF, or the Arbites, or the Inquistion, or... See what I mean? A huge, monolithic Imperium faction would just be horrible to see in game. A mess to balance, probably a fluff nightmare, multiple color schemes depending on the "sub-factions" you use, etc.
@kric1991 said:
DoW had 9 space marines per squad, 10 plus a sergeant. That is in line with the codex, not sure why they broke it up into 5's for DoW3.
Combat squads number 5 Marines. It has always been a thing that when your squad number 10 Marines, you could use them as 2 independant squads of 5 Marines.
Additional, the Space Marines in DoW3 are extremely squashy. They should retain their numbers and be buffed. Orks should be able to have 3 or 4 times the army size of SM to make it accurate.
Firstly, they don't seem that squasky in most videos I've seen, and secondly, I think you underestimate Orks' endurance and strenght (or overestimate Astartes').
If SM are so squashy now, I can't even imagine the IG...the IG is all about mass numbers. If they don't do that justice I wont buy whatever DLC they come in.
I fail to see how it wouldn't be possible to make IG. They could even use the same numbers per squad as Orks, and reduce the cost, so you have more squads of IG on the field.
Also: the IG can also be about huge tanks.
A bit of fluff nitpicking as well:
The Black Templar supposedly have over 6,000 spread across their fleets
It has been retconned unfortunately, they're around 1600 only now apparently.
@kric1991 said:
Where is the "huge armies"? The army sizes in this game don't even match DoW1 so far.
It's mostly on par with Dawn of War I, even a bit bigger for some factions, as I calculated here.
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Comments
kric1991
Where is the "huge armies"? The army sizes in this game don't even match DoW1 so far.
DiggaNob
Orks seems to die like pansy Eldar now... at least from what I see in the videos...
Katitof
Holy crap OP!
Its ALMOST as its completely different game with completely different scale, mechanics and balance!
Nautiloidor
Are you sure, or is that just perspective? The game is "zoomed out" further. Also someone did a calculation using DOW3 squad numbers and population costs and posted it somewhere on the forum that you can have roughly the same amount of SM and quite a few more Ork and Eldar units than in DOW1.
PrimaGoosa
Am I the only one who remembers that the basic Tac SM squads in DoW 1 weren't anything special either? They felt more like grunts than superhuman warriors then, and it's difficult to create mechanical in-game balance around every SM basically being a godly hero in his own right. Sometimes concessions have to be made.
Larkis
For me arnys looks bigger, both in quantity and quality. Maybe the small units and the titans dissort the picture but it looks bigger to me. Or its the same size but we see more at the sale time then before.
Auric
Actually they had 8 marines + a sergeant, giving a grand total of 9. I remember because it annoyed me an unreasonable amount! 5 is more in line, standard combat squad size.
I think a lot of things in this game are pretty squishie, with marines being at the top of the pile, but still a bit squishie. Bearing in mind the amount of stuff that is in this game which can take the average marine apart (Jain Zar, Knights of all types, Nobz), I'm not really upset about that. Even if I were...
This guy has a point.
Andtaxes
You'll have to wait for Custodes to be released as a faction to live out demigod fantasies.
BUTI
Well, it's not first discussion I'm talking about it. I was predicting that Astartes will be "guardsmenised" just by looking at first Dawn of War III screens.
Yes, there are exceptions. By normal chapters I meant Codex size standards chapters which means most of the chapters (sorry for being unclear again)
Astartes should be average nob sized (around 9 feet tall)
Mournilg
Well when Ork will wear an armor instead of a t-shirt, they will survive more ^^
More seriously, if Space Marines were really like they are described in many books, they would be near unkillable and impossible to fight against in a "fair" environment.
"Give me 1000 guardsmen or 100 space marines", do we really want to see squads of 50 guardsmen? ^^
Silk
You ignored entirely the most important part of his point: they were not alone. The first company didn't do all the job. the Ultramar Planetary Defense Force was there too, as well as the Imperial Navy which did almost all the work in space. Without them, I'm pretty sure the Ultramarines would never have been able to hold.
The daily routine I posted doesn't concern Space Wolves though. And you missed my point: here's the part of your post I was answering to.
I was pointing out that they indeed have time between battles, and have time to organize their strikes.
This is true in most case, this is not true of Salamanders. Again, it's just an example of time spent by Marines outside of battle.
Ho, so I totally misunderstood the first post of this dicussion and you're entirely OK with the way Marines are currently depicted in the game then. Great, it was nice to discuss with you, glad we reached an agreement.
I just said in the bit you quoted that the maximum is more than 1000 Marines.
Or are you moving the point about the Blood Ravens not being a great chapter enough to reach the maximum number? I guess I can receive that argument, it's true that they're not primogenitors or anything. But that's true only for the campaign though, in Multiplayer people will play (mostly) the most successful chapters, their own original chapter (which can be a huge one), or just colors they like because they don't care about the lore.
True. But I fail to see how a battle between Tyranids and Ultramarines (among others) relates to the topic at hand. Reminder that the argument was that Eldar are roughly on par with Marines.
And again I fail to see how putting a Space Marine in a middle of a squad of Guardsmen would be more lore friendly when the two entities can work on their own.
They still do so, but not all of them and/or not always.
The same could be said about the Mechanicum, or the PDF, or the Arbites, or the Inquistion, or... See what I mean? A huge, monolithic Imperium faction would just be horrible to see in game. A mess to balance, probably a fluff nightmare, multiple color schemes depending on the "sub-factions" you use, etc.
Silk
Combat squads number 5 Marines. It has always been a thing that when your squad number 10 Marines, you could use them as 2 independant squads of 5 Marines.
Firstly, they don't seem that squasky in most videos I've seen, and secondly, I think you underestimate Orks' endurance and strenght (or overestimate Astartes').
I fail to see how it wouldn't be possible to make IG. They could even use the same numbers per squad as Orks, and reduce the cost, so you have more squads of IG on the field.
Also: the IG can also be about huge tanks.
A bit of fluff nitpicking as well:
It has been retconned unfortunately, they're around 1600 only now apparently.
It's mostly on par with Dawn of War I, even a bit bigger for some factions, as I calculated here.