@Gorb said:
**DoW II had the same issue **(because it's an older game, with similar issues, before people bring it up as a counter-example).
>
How did it have the same issue? Compared to the ++heresy redacted++ storm that is DoW3 as shown in the gifs it was nothing like it @Gorb. As soon as one team dropped a global say Tyranoformation or not that any sensible SM player would use the Orbital becuase it was rubbish but any of these ults the other team our either try and disperse or retreat back to base. This was the case in 2v2 and 3v3.
It had similar issues because people raised similar issues. I pointed out that this isn't really relevant though because DoW II is an older game, while DoW III is the product you want to give feedback on and hopefully change.
That said, do I really have to point out the irony in you defending DoW II for readability because you can read the gameplay well? That's exactly what you're failing to recognise in peoples' opinions in DoW III gameplay. People concerns are always worth listening to, even if the final decision goes against them.
Your opinion about DoW III is just as valid as someone's opinion that they find the game clear and readable. However your concerns should still be taken seriously. Please try and extend that courtesy to others, in return. Opinion post.
From the ultimate abilities I think the ork one ist the best in terms of clarity because its not blocking that much sight but tells all important information: the device, that units can pick up is clearly visible and draws attention with its movement and lightning effects, you can see the radius and the big nuke in the end.
The worst imo is the eldritch storm, because most times it covers like a quarter of the screen? From the AoE field on the ground, up to the points where the lightning strikes are coming from makes it appear quite big. But also, it is highly contrasted, having white lightning, red / blue clouds and dark clouds in it, and they block a lot of sight. Also the borders of the effect are barely visible, I would like a cleaner line there (there are some clouds hinting at its actual radius but its not really clear).
The laser of the space marines seems okay, but as it increases in size it also becomes a giant pillar of sight blocking. (it also has a better border shown than the eldritch storm)
Ofc the footage is 3v3 lategame mayhem, and it could work fine in smaller fights
asking for games that clutter the screen in a similar fashion was dumb of me, because DoW doesnt need to do the same mistakes as other games. Besides that i didnt find your Dota video to be that cluttered, ofc im used to it but also the soundscape in Dota is very distinctive, which DoW3 is currently lacking. Your Sc2 video wasnt cluttered to me at all. Its just a bunch of mass carriers, but i can still clearly see whats going on. The CoH video was interesting, as i dont play it and so i am less biased. I found it to be readable and i could see the infantry guys running there, but the smoke was unnecessarily high in particle density.
Anyways none of these come close to the DoW3 ults in my opinion , especially when its 2v2 or 3v3 and even more effects and abilities are being layered over each other. I would not be able to see if a unit inside this mess is using a stun grenade on me and move out of the explosion radius in time, only if id mouseover it with outlines enabled. But when i have to mouseover it first to see what its happening i cant click somewhere else in time. Needs to be more visible. Either by autoenabling outlines or lowering the particle density.
But think about you have the Situation in the SC Video and also an Ground Focre army under the carriers which you need to micromanage.
At the end the big "problem" with the readability is that you must know which information is important and which not.
When i first played Dota it was so much confusing. Ice rain from the top, blue balls flying around, a complete ship appears and crashes near to me, ateroid fall down, huge snowballs rolling around ect. It was really really distracting. Later when i learn the heroes and there abilitys i know what i see and my brain just concentrate on the important information.
The same when i first drive a car in the night with heavy rain. I clealry see nothing, everything is reflecting everything, the vision was so disturbed, it was horrible. After a few yeears of practise, i now the important informatio and its no problem driving on any weather conditions.
What i try to say: No one of us allrady played DOW3, we just look on videos. Our brain dont know which information is important and which not. As i saw, the space marine laser kills everything instant which its in raange. So you simple dont need to see whats on that place, cause everything on that place is dead.
The rok has a good visibility, cause you need to play the hot potato game.
The storm seems to have some visual issues, but i cant say how the storm works so maybe its ok. its i hint to me that i should remove my units out of it, when i cant see what happening. Maybe (i dont play elder) it could also used as advantage for blocking the lign of sight for your enemys.
For example there is a well defended enemy position, you put your storm on it and your space marine partner drops droppods on top of it so your enemy dont know what happens under the storm.
Also, dont forget that we just see leaked gameplay where people mostly play bad of fool around. We dont know how regular the showing part is. I mean starcraft2 is easy readable, but take a 4vs4 were everyone say "hey, lets all produce units until we reach the unit max and then throw all together at one point and throw some nukes and psi storms on it". This would also be very bad readable, but its not a regular situation.
No, me and quite a few others already did play the game. And if you could get used to Dota, you will get used to DoW3. You will learn to identify the spells rather quickly because they are actually really well done and distinguishable. The soundscape could use some tuning still though.
It just gets problematic when these really big aoe effects hide important information like used abilities beneath.
I think part of the problem with nukes is that they will be way more frequent in DoW3. In DoW2, you normally have max 1 nuke per player, so even in 3v3 it's usually around 3 or 4 nukes. In Dow3 we will probably see multiple nukes from every player each game, so the demand for readability is higher than in DoW2. Also, you can't just hit retreat button when there is a nuke dropped on you, you will have to micro your units inside the nuke if you want them to survive.
At the moment, I think Ork roks are completely ok, orbital could maybe use a little bit toning down, and the biggest problem is eldritch. Eldritch is a low damage nuke that slows units and stays extremely long, so you will often need to micro your units out of the storm, but it almost completely obscures them. I think making it more transparent would help a lot.
the different games above are far more clearer than DOW3!
I'm not a SC2 or COH2 player but it looks very clear, I see all the units on the screen all the time and how they are moving.
I'm a Dota2 player and think that you have 10 players during team fights, each one playing all his ability and items effects at once and still everything is very clear, you see what amount of damage your hero is taking, what is the probability he'll survive, where is it sure to move or if you'll manage to kill another hero, where are your teammates and where are the opponent heroes. You can't see nothing of those in Dow3.
As you can see in the gif, you allways see the healthbar of the units, you see the type of the units and is think Effect on them.. This is all the information you need to controll your units. You only dont see shiny models and animations. So there is no real information loss. Also you could see the selection outline trough the storm!
@Shardex said:
No, me and quite a few others already did play the game. And if you could get used to Dota, you will get used to DoW3. You will learn to identify the spells rather quickly because they are actually really well done and distinguishable. The soundscape could use some tuning still though.
It just gets problematic when these really big aoe effects hide important information like used abilities beneath.
The problem is having played the game doesn't grant you absolute statements on the topic. Observations from streamed footage are valid, presuming it's of a quality that supports the assertions made. Readability is a very subjective thing, and thus hard for developers to get "right".
The problem is having played the game doesn't grant you absolute statements on the topic. Observations from streamed footage are valid, presuming it's of a quality that supports the assertions made. Readability is a very subjective thing, and thus hard for developers to get "right".
Absolutely agree. What i wrote might have come across differently then intended. My first sentence was in direct response to this part Larkis wrote.
@Larkis said:
What i try to say: No one of us allrady played DOW3, we just look on videos. Our brain dont know which information is important and which not. As i saw, the space marine laser kills everything instant which its in raange. So you simple dont need to see whats on that place, cause everything on that place is dead.
I just meant to tell him, even though i have first hand experience i agree with him and have problems identifying some visuals like whats going on beneath the ultimate abilities. And even if i weren't sharing his opinion, i wouldnt deem it invalid because as you said Readability is a subjective thing.
As you can see in the gif, you allways see the healthbar of the units, you see the type of the units and is think Effect on them.. This is all the information you need to controll your units. You only dont see shiny models and animations. So there is no real information loss. Also you could see the selection outline trough the storm!
Yes, but for the selection outline to be visible through the storm, i must have it enabled. I'd rather have it disabled and only autoenabled in these extreme circumstances where Spells would cover them up completely, if technically possible. I think its called Dithering in DoW 1? Id like to see the whole model as as dark shade instead of the outline. That would be easier to read and in my opinion also artistically more coherent. Because of the many active abilities units have i deem the visuals of the models rather important, as the healthbars dont indicate used spells, especially telegraphed Skills arent visible anymore beneath the Ults.
As examples i wouldnt be able to see that Macha uses her Singing Spear or the tactical Space Marines are throwing a Stun grenade. Both abilities i generally would be able to dodge if i could see them coming.
@Shardex I haven't played it yet. As an opposing player, does the green telegraph show up in the game?
In DoW2 some abilities would not telegraph their target locations as the animation resolved (Mekboy's teleport, Warboss charge, all kinds of grenades) yet some would (Loota tank megablast, Chaos Sorcerer's chain thing (IIRC), Manticore's barrage...).
And as far as I remember it was fair game to sneak in small abilities in as stuff got busy in the screen. Heck, I used Lord Commissar's flare plenty of times as a bluff since the target telegraph was the same as Manticore's.
It's playing the engine. As long as it isn't a constant firework show, it should be just fine.
@Shardex said:
Ofcourse we can learn to read all this and become used to it, but it will always be distracting and be a total clusterfukk for any viewer.
It's getting easier to read the more I watch it ;D
Maybe they could make the "Nukes" a little more transparent, but I think it's one of those things that get much easier to read once you are in the game playing it, and you you just get that natural internal filter. Much like Overwatch. Still much easier to read than say, Battleborn.
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Gorb
It had similar issues because people raised similar issues. I pointed out that this isn't really relevant though because DoW II is an older game, while DoW III is the product you want to give feedback on and hopefully change.
That said, do I really have to point out the irony in you defending DoW II for readability because you can read the gameplay well? That's exactly what you're failing to recognise in peoples' opinions in DoW III gameplay. People concerns are always worth listening to, even if the final decision goes against them.
Your opinion about DoW III is just as valid as someone's opinion that they find the game clear and readable. However your concerns should still be taken seriously. Please try and extend that courtesy to others, in return. Opinion post.
Larkis
Showing other Strategy Games/moobas with the same claritiy issues? Challenge acceptet:
Dota:
Starcraft2:
Company of heroes: Time: 0:50 And now think about haveing armys under that, you alse can see aclearly invisible Soldier squad
Act of Agression Time: 1:00
Now all of them (except Dota) shows 1vs1 Actions. Now think about what happens when 4 Player do this on the same place at the same time.
NTRFX
From the ultimate abilities I think the ork one ist the best in terms of clarity because its not blocking that much sight but tells all important information: the device, that units can pick up is clearly visible and draws attention with its movement and lightning effects, you can see the radius and the big nuke in the end.
The worst imo is the eldritch storm, because most times it covers like a quarter of the screen? From the AoE field on the ground, up to the points where the lightning strikes are coming from makes it appear quite big. But also, it is highly contrasted, having white lightning, red / blue clouds and dark clouds in it, and they block a lot of sight. Also the borders of the effect are barely visible, I would like a cleaner line there (there are some clouds hinting at its actual radius but its not really clear).
The laser of the space marines seems okay, but as it increases in size it also becomes a giant pillar of sight blocking. (it also has a better border shown than the eldritch storm)
Ofc the footage is 3v3 lategame mayhem, and it could work fine in smaller fights
Shardex
asking for games that clutter the screen in a similar fashion was dumb of me, because DoW doesnt need to do the same mistakes as other games. Besides that i didnt find your Dota video to be that cluttered, ofc im used to it but also the soundscape in Dota is very distinctive, which DoW3 is currently lacking. Your Sc2 video wasnt cluttered to me at all. Its just a bunch of mass carriers, but i can still clearly see whats going on. The CoH video was interesting, as i dont play it and so i am less biased. I found it to be readable and i could see the infantry guys running there, but the smoke was unnecessarily high in particle density.
Anyways none of these come close to the DoW3 ults in my opinion , especially when its 2v2 or 3v3 and even more effects and abilities are being layered over each other. I would not be able to see if a unit inside this mess is using a stun grenade on me and move out of the explosion radius in time, only if id mouseover it with outlines enabled. But when i have to mouseover it first to see what its happening i cant click somewhere else in time. Needs to be more visible. Either by autoenabling outlines or lowering the particle density.
Larkis
But think about you have the Situation in the SC Video and also an Ground Focre army under the carriers which you need to micromanage.
At the end the big "problem" with the readability is that you must know which information is important and which not.
When i first played Dota it was so much confusing. Ice rain from the top, blue balls flying around, a complete ship appears and crashes near to me, ateroid fall down, huge snowballs rolling around ect. It was really really distracting. Later when i learn the heroes and there abilitys i know what i see and my brain just concentrate on the important information.
The same when i first drive a car in the night with heavy rain. I clealry see nothing, everything is reflecting everything, the vision was so disturbed, it was horrible. After a few yeears of practise, i now the important informatio and its no problem driving on any weather conditions.
What i try to say: No one of us allrady played DOW3, we just look on videos. Our brain dont know which information is important and which not. As i saw, the space marine laser kills everything instant which its in raange. So you simple dont need to see whats on that place, cause everything on that place is dead.
The rok has a good visibility, cause you need to play the hot potato game.
The storm seems to have some visual issues, but i cant say how the storm works so maybe its ok. its i hint to me that i should remove my units out of it, when i cant see what happening. Maybe (i dont play elder) it could also used as advantage for blocking the lign of sight for your enemys.
For example there is a well defended enemy position, you put your storm on it and your space marine partner drops droppods on top of it so your enemy dont know what happens under the storm.
I think we just need some time to figure out.
Larkis
Also, dont forget that we just see leaked gameplay where people mostly play bad of fool around. We dont know how regular the showing part is. I mean starcraft2 is easy readable, but take a 4vs4 were everyone say "hey, lets all produce units until we reach the unit max and then throw all together at one point and throw some nukes and psi storms on it". This would also be very bad readable, but its not a regular situation.
Shardex
No, me and quite a few others already did play the game. And if you could get used to Dota, you will get used to DoW3. You will learn to identify the spells rather quickly because they are actually really well done and distinguishable. The soundscape could use some tuning still though.
It just gets problematic when these really big aoe effects hide important information like used abilities beneath.
CleanAndClear
I think part of the problem with nukes is that they will be way more frequent in DoW3. In DoW2, you normally have max 1 nuke per player, so even in 3v3 it's usually around 3 or 4 nukes. In Dow3 we will probably see multiple nukes from every player each game, so the demand for readability is higher than in DoW2. Also, you can't just hit retreat button when there is a nuke dropped on you, you will have to micro your units inside the nuke if you want them to survive.
At the moment, I think Ork roks are completely ok, orbital could maybe use a little bit toning down, and the biggest problem is eldritch. Eldritch is a low damage nuke that slows units and stays extremely long, so you will often need to micro your units out of the storm, but it almost completely obscures them. I think making it more transparent would help a lot.
shmoulki
the different games above are far more clearer than DOW3!
I'm not a SC2 or COH2 player but it looks very clear, I see all the units on the screen all the time and how they are moving.
I'm a Dota2 player and think that you have 10 players during team fights, each one playing all his ability and items effects at once and still everything is very clear, you see what amount of damage your hero is taking, what is the probability he'll survive, where is it sure to move or if you'll manage to kill another hero, where are your teammates and where are the opponent heroes. You can't see nothing of those in Dow3.
Larkis
Ok if you going on this.
As you can see in the gif, you allways see the healthbar of the units, you see the type of the units and is think Effect on them.. This is all the information you need to controll your units. You only dont see shiny models and animations. So there is no real information loss. Also you could see the selection outline trough the storm!
Gorb
The problem is having played the game doesn't grant you absolute statements on the topic. Observations from streamed footage are valid, presuming it's of a quality that supports the assertions made. Readability is a very subjective thing, and thus hard for developers to get "right".
Shardex
Absolutely agree. What i wrote might have come across differently then intended. My first sentence was in direct response to this part Larkis wrote.
I just meant to tell him, even though i have first hand experience i agree with him and have problems identifying some visuals like whats going on beneath the ultimate abilities. And even if i weren't sharing his opinion, i wouldnt deem it invalid because as you said Readability is a subjective thing.
Yes, but for the selection outline to be visible through the storm, i must have it enabled. I'd rather have it disabled and only autoenabled in these extreme circumstances where Spells would cover them up completely, if technically possible. I think its called Dithering in DoW 1? Id like to see the whole model as as dark shade instead of the outline. That would be easier to read and in my opinion also artistically more coherent. Because of the many active abilities units have i deem the visuals of the models rather important, as the healthbars dont indicate used spells, especially telegraphed Skills arent visible anymore beneath the Ults.
As examples i wouldnt be able to see that Macha uses her Singing Spear or the tactical Space Marines are throwing a Stun grenade. Both abilities i generally would be able to dodge if i could see them coming.
Shardex
Or this one, that LeemanRuss just posted:
The green telegraph is basically invisible below an ult like the Eldritch Storm. For me as opposing player it would really hard to dodge in time.
AtlasDoomOcculta
@Shardex I haven't played it yet. As an opposing player, does the green telegraph show up in the game?
In DoW2 some abilities would not telegraph their target locations as the animation resolved (Mekboy's teleport, Warboss charge, all kinds of grenades) yet some would (Loota tank megablast, Chaos Sorcerer's chain thing (IIRC), Manticore's barrage...).
And as far as I remember it was fair game to sneak in small abilities in as stuff got busy in the screen. Heck, I used Lord Commissar's flare plenty of times as a bluff since the target telegraph was the same as Manticore's.
It's playing the engine. As long as it isn't a constant firework show, it should be just fine.
Shardex
For some abilities you see the target telegraph in red as opponent but not all are visible, for some you just got to learn the animations.
Connatic
It's getting easier to read the more I watch it ;D
Maybe they could make the "Nukes" a little more transparent, but I think it's one of those things that get much easier to read once you are in the game playing it, and you you just get that natural internal filter. Much like Overwatch. Still much easier to read than say, Battleborn.
Connatic
Not sure if they actually did tweak it, but it's no where near as bad as the GIF you linked, or seen in some of the videos.
Watching this game live right now, it's much easier to read.
Heavyflame
Act of Agression is a terrible game with no control about your army, this is also the reasion why it is dead.