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Do you still want an accuracy mechanic?
4 years ago
Seed_of_Power
E.i units miss shots.
I personally like it, I like the subtle reason it brings and its something I have to think about when playing. It makes Relic strategy games feel like Relic strategy games.
Do you still want this for dawn of war 3? Why or why not.
1
Comments
reach
Nope
Bezagron
Short answer Yes. It's part of the combat favour that makes the DoW games range combat feel so different to others. Why it feels more gritty & realistic when you watch & interact with it. I think part of the reason why people might be referring it as feeling SCy after they watch the gameplay demo is because range combat didn't feel like it had any random element to it.
I would like this range combat randomness back. Sure it doesn't feel as responsive or clear but it gives a gritty realistic feeling to it not making it feel so clinical. Like the units are real & under combat pressure missing shots because they're also trying to dodge incoming shot & miss time shots.
Other RTS were just move unit in range attack cause damage. DoW was move in range actually hit the target & then cause damage. This also followed the feeling of the TT game. Hoping a chance to miss is still in.
Ellie
I feel that things like accuracy will be replaced with dodge for certain units. it seems like most eldar units can dodge, at least from what was shown in the e3 gameplay, while space marines didnt have that dodge chance, so every shot the eldar weapons fired hit them.
Seed_of_Power
Those things don't have to be mutuality exclusive. I feel the character of the orks wouldn't make them great shots so they will tend to miss more, as Tactical marines will have a better weapon skill.
Bezagron
I think it's an important element that has made DoW range combat feel the way it is. Take it away & it will no longer feel like the DoW combat we know.
raviel
Sure, it was always in the DOW games.
Why do people try to make games easier(shallow) and less complex all the time?
The easier(more shallow) the game is, the more boring(bad) it is. It is always nice to play a game for years and only than understand some minor mechanic interactions that can be useful but you haven't noticed yet.
Accuracy is good for balance too, you can make higher damage weapons that miss a lot, or size related accuracy like in DoW2, so you have more things to consider when choosing target, the farseer ability Guide is about increasing accuracy and essentially dps.
fleet of foot can be balanced by it as well if it is a toggled ability like it was in DOW1, hopefully.
on the move accuracy so some weapon can be used on the move for reduced dps, while others do full dps or can't be used at all.
It allows many interesting mechanics and ways to balance units while not forcing them to be essentially equal except the skin, and name
HohesHaus
Exact that makes balance incredibly difficult. With no accuray - if a unit makes too much damage, lower it. With accuary you can higher the miss chance or lower the damage, both aspects have to take into account and make it more difficult to find the good middle path
Caeltos
I hope they're done with accuracy and overcomplicated mechanics that aren't available to the players without data-mining for the specifics. % accuracy and etc just causes inconsistencies with unit performance and expectations, resulting in frustrating situations due to RNG.
SharKnight
I wish for an accurate mechanic to that of DOW 1.
I dont want no new wierd stuff that would break the gameplay of dow 1. Such as "no need for buildings or workers" to construct units that fall on drop pods.
What is wrong with having an ORBITAL RELAY to produce Deep Strike units or load your units for Deep striking?
raviel
You can calculate the expected dps including accuracy, if dps too high nerf damage or accuracy.
Having accuracy allows for units such as Seraphim squad for sisters of battle in DoW1, necron warriors as well use same mechanic to compensate their movement speed and range problems. It gives ways to make units unique while still keeping the expected dps roughly the same.
If you just remove mechanics not only you make it impossible to make unique units, in the end if all the stats units have are hp and damage you will end up having exactly same units with just different skins and names. We already have just 3 races in the game, like 8 unit types per race. At least make those units count not just clones one of the other!
the lack of documentation is a problem, no doubt about that, but we could ask for doumentation instead requesting to dumben the game.
RNG is part of the game you should take it into consideration if you doubt you can win the engagement you should decide whether to risk it or not.
Obviously it should be kept in check, just slight differences in performance like +-(5-10)% damage in an encounter.
Other thing is number of units per squad, it shouldn't differ much from race to race(as having less models is a big advantage). Having space marines like in DoW2 that can survive 1000+ damage without loosing a single model(~400 hp each model) is irrisonable when other races lose units when space marines just look at them. Hopefully without retreat mechanic this will be better.
Seed_of_Power
Things are only over complicated if they are not adequately taught. I would say that understanding the inconsistencies in a unit make their performance less frustrating. I'm also just talking about basic fire damage, I wouldn't want this in abilities.
SharKnight
If they make it like DOW1 then yes.
Ellie
im fine with accuracy as long as they make weapons fast firing on average. I hated it in dow 2 because of how slow everything fired, especially on the space marine side. it felt like you missed 50% of shots no matter what.
Seed_of_Power
So no reloading? They're were a lot of animations in DoW2 fighting, between volleys you can see squads reloading for example. I can see how that can be frustrating. I hope for Dawn of War 3, they are better about teaching us the nuances in the game.
Ellie
im fine with reloading as well, as long as it isnt like dow 2. with dow 2 they reloaded after like 3 bolter shots, or rested with a plasma gun after a single shot or two. more animations for fluid, lifelike troops are nice, but I dont want it to necessarily get in the way of gameplay and slow it down to a crawl constantly.
Seed_of_Power
I would disagree with you as this statement is hyperbolic, and I wouldn't take it as a criticism. Animations and rate of fire can be mutually exclusive to accuracy. As for game speed, both games were pretty fast when comes to combat.
Bezagron
Well how do we want the combat to feel?
That a point players need to consider. Sure the random needs to be controlled but these random combat elements are a main reason for the way DoW combat has had this realistic gritty feeling to it. It's not clean it's messy because of this randomness.
Also randomness is only as random as the designer makes it. It can be quite easily consider & accounted for. What is needed is the details. If a base unit weapon has a 75% chance to hit display this detail don't hide it.
So far for me it's this realistic gritty messy feeling to the combat that seems to be missing. And why people feel like it doesn't look or feel like DoW.
Without randomness we basically just get chess with a ability active skill layer & more units.
Seed_of_Power
Very well put, hopefully in the upcoming game play trailers this will be addressed. I know in the previous dawn of war games, their tool tips weren't that great and didn't display the full breath of unit statistics. As for your question, I too would pick the ladder answer.
Reaper51
I don't think you need to have accuracy per say, you could have units with attacks like 50-60 damage for space marines, and 20-30 for orks, this would make sm have a smaller delta between lowest attack damage and highest while the orks would have a higher delta, hence be more inaccurate without necessarily having an accuracy rating, just a potential damage range where a certain unit's attacks will fall in. This means that the sm unit will have an average of 55dps and the ork unit 25dps.
KanKrusha
Personally, yes I do.
Accuracy is a mechanic that adds some flavour to the game and differentiates units and races. It works well when you have lots of models to receive damage and a relatively high rate of fire (ie lots of shots) so that changing the accuracy from 100 to 75% has the exact same effect as reducing damage by 25%.
Plus it adds a bit of tension and excitement to strategy - the risk you take is a little uncertain. Annoying for esport pros who want complete predictability but good for the rest of us.
When it did not work well was that time in DOW2 when you had a large change in received accuracy from 100 to 50% when in melee and you had small numbers of models in the squads. This led to extreme spikes where shooting caused no casualties or unexpectedly large casualties and possible squad losses. In that setting it was changed to reduced received damage and that worked better as it was more predictable.
So I would say keep accuracy modifiers for ranged fire as long as it doesn't drop below 66.67% . After that it starts getting too random and a reduced damage modifier is better
Likewise a bit of burst vs sustained damage difference between units is good as long as the difference is not too extreme and results in wildly unpredictable outcomes
Raindrop
I hope its gone.
RNG based accuracy is most frustrating when it comes to vehicle combat.
I dont mind it so much when it comes to infanry combat. Tho they could have animations for some shots missing thier target while the dmg is still applyed. I don't think accuracy increases the skill cap of the game because its RNG based anyway.
Caeltos
Yeah, but the thing is - how deep will they be with the description and details of statistics without overflooding the UI. Even detailed tooltips for Dawn of War 2 can be abit over-the top with it's information, and it STILL doesn't tell you sufficient details, even if it does a better job then the default tooltip. The tooltips gives you specifics regarding certain abilities/weapon stats, but it doesn't tell you the details that entail on damage-fall, modifiers and how terrain can have an effect on it.
I'm fine with a moderate amount of RNG to keep the tensions high - and there's a risk vs reward type of element. But it should never be a burden or a frustrating mechanic, if that makes any sense? I mean, Dawn of War 2 specifically had Special Attacks, and for mid-fight skirmishes, this was tolerable and it actually had a mechanic with the melee skill system. For the most part, it worked quite well - but it started to break apart when the special attacks would occur during retreats, or not during retreats - having a major impact on the game. It caused inconsistencies with how retreating was handled. Sometimes you got lucky, sometimes you didn't - and depending on that outcome, you could sometimes lose the game, or win the game based on that.
Seed_of_Power
Yeah I understand, its how you implement.
I feel they could squeeze units stats onto the UI. There is a info box above the unit bar on the HUD designated for stuff like that. As for the accuracy, what I'm really talking about is a hit or miss chance on basic shots. For squad units this would be a range in DPS, as not all shots land and for vehicles it would work like it always had.
The time I spent really on Dawn of War 2, it was super frustrating when a squad would get away just because my force commander decided to throw a super punch at that moment and miss it. Granted I was also pretty happy when I was on the other end of that. I guess we have still wait and see what they are keeping, I don't know if they have said anything about random basic special attacks but I'm not here nor there on that.
Reaper51
The UI in DoW1 was fairly informative, you could see the damage range of both melee and ranged attacks, number of squad members, number of special weapons, and armor type, though accuracy was hidden:
media.moddb.com/images/downloads/1/63/62300/Bugfix_Screenshot.jpg
Bezagron
You can basically make the randomness have minumum overall impact while still providing the visual favour & feeling core to DoW combat.
I say core because if it's removed although you might have more responsive clean combat mechanics it will no longer feel or play like the DoW from DoW 1 or 2. It will no longer be the DoW messy combat we know & more Star Craft like as people have been talking about.
Because it was messy it felt darker, grittier & more realistic. That messy realistic feeling of DoW combat is something I would be very sad to see go.
Regarding balance the tick is to keep the randomness within a small controllable range but also provide that randomness stat for players to see & not hide it. It's frustrating having to figure out a unit has 75% chance to hit small units & 85% against large units because the stats not given.
Also the randomness also need reliability yes there's an element of luck but a player needs the reliability that an action they engage in will achieve the result their looking within a small variation of the end result. This is without the feeling that it's all in the hands of the Dice Rolling GODS.
Not 100% successful result but close. This still provides that great feeling of a close escape due to some luck or the slight frustration because they just got away. This is not a bad aspect as there's also a skill needed in taking advantages & reacting skillful to these plays. But this type of event should not be the norm. Play out the same encounter & 9 times out of 10 it would achieve the reliable result not the lucky/unlucky one.
Lastly I just hope at some level the realistic messy combat that has been part of DoW for both 1 & 2 is carried over into DoW 3. There is a skill in this combat a skill that also plays off the element of reacting to lucky & unlucky events that's not just dictated by pure mechanical execution of clean chessboard mechanics. A more Star Craft clean combat then the messy DoW we know.
Seed_of_Power
Nicely put.
reach
RNG is for RPGs.
There is already plenty of randomness, it's called player control.
Xileh
I too like a little randomness.
The Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill represent the accuracy in the tabletop game and is an balance tool.
Without accuracy we will have Orks, that typically spam their weapons and spray the whole air in an attempt to hit something.
If we remove it, suddendly the Orks always hit what would make their heavy weapons teams too strong, meaning the damage has to be reduced. But it would feel odd if their heavy weapons like zappguns just won't blow a big junk out of a vehicle.
Or if we don't reduce damage we have to reduce firing speed, what makes Orks not feel Orky.
Bezagron
So if you don't like randomness or the attempt at a more realistic representation of real combat why the interest in DoW 3?
I'm just wondering because this aspect has been a part of the DoW IP & is one of the major combat elements that gives DoW that dark gritty messy feeling people associate with 40k & DoW's combat. It's also a major element of faction designs in the 40k universe like Xileh mentions without a chance to hit or miss how do you even provide DoW 3's Orks weaponry with the feeling that the 40k Orks have due to the inaccuracy of their weaponry. The object of accuracy & the chance to hit & miss is an important element of design. The realism of such of the factions & their technologies.
Actually this is one aspect I would be very interested in if this was going to be carried over or removed.
I agree if accuracy has been removed how does that effect a faction like the Orks which have typically been a faction of inaccurate range weaponry.. What becomes of the Orks? What becomes of the Powerful but inaccurate weaponries. Accuracy is an important element between factions & weaponrries in the 40k universe.
I'm not sure it will feel anything like DoW. From DoW 1 & 2s messy combat with a bit of randomness to a clinical clean unrandom combat that feels more like Star Craft but only with a 40k skin. It just feels wrong when watching the ranged comabt in the clip seeing 100% accuracy with all range auto attacks hitting the target. Units look like they just shooting target dummies & not actually engaged in a combat that has their life on the line.
If only for the Orks to keep their character please keep accuracy with the chance to hit or miss in DoW 3. Also please provide detailed information like accuracy against small units or larger units. This is information that's not always needed for the minute to minute game play but could either be provided through a pop-up panel in match or an encyclopedia data bank. Also for in match info please update stats when upgrades or items are in effect on a unit.
Creature
I like as little RNG as possible.