@RaspberryTurtle said:
Apart from that cringey pause when Gorgutz jumps in, very good trailer.
Wraithknight Taldeer looks amazing in motion.
I think the pause was quite funny, like Gorgutz forgot what he was there for. He then defaulted to the tried and tested "Waaaagh and fight" method of resolving issues.
Even without seeing the other Eldar elites, I'm expecting Taldeer to always be in my lineup. I never particularly liked the wraithknight in tabletop 40k, but seeing her leaping through the air makes me love them in dawn of war.
The worst thing about this game will be having to settle for only 3 elites in a match!
the normal wraithknight leaps as well, so enjoy taking both
@Silk said:
You just said they answered two of the critics.
goes to show that they are not considering the feedback that much seriously (never said ''they did not at all'').
Ans as I said earlier in the thread, you can't change the game instantly. It takes time. And with the see of unconstructive criticism they got, it's hard to see what people really want and compare it to what is actually doable.
There have been actually a lot of constructive criticism that they have ignored - again I'm capitalizing on this since they said they are open to feedback and the game being in alpha build gave too many people false hope that their feedback may somehow be implemented into the game - such as the one we have already discussed, the animations of certain characters and units (Angelos and Space marines) or even a topic in this forum which discussed why all the tactical marines are hip-firing rather than aiming down the sight, etc. All little issues related to immersion which I think all the previous fans - whether DoW 1 or DoW 2 - can agree upon and modifying them to some extent to win back some of the unsatisfied crowd would be a totally rational move on their part and not doing so is just odd. The thing here is that none of these changes, which again could win back a lot of people to their side, does interfere with their grand and pre-established game design.
Good that you see that you don't jump on hate-bandwagon nor hype-trains, but unfortunately (and as you saif) marketing works (otherwise no company would invest in this kind of trailers). They do it because it works, it's as simple as that: why take the hard way? Notice that this critic goes for everything in nowadays' life, including politics (which is why I always find american elections hilarious, but this is another matter and quite polemic so I suppose I shouldn't discuss it here).
I'm simply saying with people who follow the wind wherever it blows ( as we say it in Persian), people who always tend to be at the two extremes ( hate bandwagons and hype trains), this issue will always persist and it in itself leads to another bad move to be made by the developers which is to create flashy trailers to counter the criticisms (simply by exploiting 'hype') instead of actually working on the feedback to gradually win back the crowd. Which I have to give them that, it works like magic, by seeing some of people who were frontiers in saying negative stuff in every video and their comments being top liked, suddenly changing their whole opinion about the game and now saying they are pretty hyped about it! Meanwhile we who took a more neutral position in all this, can't even have our criticisms noticed.
Good that you see that you don't jump on hate-bandwagon nor hype-trains
I did not say it to gratify myself, just taking a back seat approach to all this proves that point.
@AliZz said:
There have been actually a lot of constructive criticism that they have ignored - again I'm capitalizing on this since they said they are open to feedback and the game being in alpha build gave too many people false hope that their feedback may somehow be implemented into the game - such as the one we have already discussed, the animations of certain characters and units (Angelos and Space marines) or even a topic in this forum which discussed why all the tactical marines are hip-firing rather than aiming down the sight, etc. All little issues related to immersion which I think all the previous fans - whether DoW 1 or DoW 2 - can agree upon and modifying them to some extent to win back some of the unsatisfied crowd would be a totally rational move on their part and not doing so is just odd. The thing here is that none of these changes, which again could win back a lot of people to their side, does interfere with their grand and pre-established game design.
So your point is that Relic gave false hope to some. Okay, I get why someone would think that and respect that opinion. It is true that the "alpha" and "beta" terms now have a "marketing" meaning they didn't have before, and maybe Relic is being too cautious there.
I'm simply saying with people who follow the wind wherever it blows ( as we say it in Persian), people who always tend to be at the two extremes ( hate bandwagons and hype trains), this issue will always persist and it in itself leads to another bad move to be made by the developers which is to create flashy trailers to counter the criticisms (simply by exploiting 'hype') instead of actually working on the feedback to gradually win back the crowd. Which I have to give them that, it works like magic, by seeing some of people who were frontiers in saying negative stuff in every video and their comments being top liked, suddenly changing their whole opinion about the game and now saying they are pretty hyped about it! Meanwhile we who took a more neutral position in all this, can't even have our criticisms noticed.
I get the concept, I just meant that I don't think this situation will change soon unfortunately.
I did not say it to gratify myself, just taking a back seat approach to all this proves that point.
Don't worry, I didn't think your were arrogant or anything. I took the decision to gratify you on your reserved stance, because I think it is the most reasonable approach.
Look, I want this game to suceed. All of us here want that or we wouldn't waste our time here. But there are criticisms which are going unanswered and I want some answers. Even if it is an answer I don't like. Better to know I won't like this game in the end than to keep up false hope. Or vice versa, why continue worrying if end-product will end up ok. Instead of that, here, have a trailer. I don't have problems with this trailer, actually it is very good. I like it. But I am afraid it is just a smoke screen.
How is this new cover working? Is it just bubble shield or is there more to it? Grass breaking vision? Is that just that (a copy of SC2 mechanic) or is there more to it? Are they even considering changing those stupid Termi animations? How big will maps in the game be? Will there be any incentive to preserve units? And a million others. And no, I don't need definitive answers, I just want to see the way they want to take this game. And then I can decide for myself is this the product I want to buy.
@Mr_Ruin:
You won't possibly know everything about the game before it is released. No game ever managed to give all the information about it, and I don't think this game will be any different - because there is just too much to know about it, like a lot of games. I suppose you will worry for a lot longer, for this game and for almost every other game you're looking into (except maybe some kickstarted indie-game with basic gameplay).
They also won't answer questions about every little detail because those little details often change on the course of development, and they may announce things that won't be true at launch - causing people to calling them liars or say they were betrayed or whatever. They also have priorities, and while they would certainly change everything to cater to our every exigence, they don't necessarily have the time and the budget to do so. Although I too would prefer if Gabriel Angelos was a bit less swift, I prefer them to work on making a stable, balanced, fun game than on changing esthetic details.
This trailer was the best I've seen so far, where there was some skepticism left in me, it actually drummed up some hype! -- But I can't help but wonder why they didn't show this first. It accentuates the so called "Cartoony" animations and visuals in a way that looks good - Not shown in the plain "Gameplay Unit Breakdowns" that outraged so many people. I'm sure if this had been released right after the first trailer a lot more people would still be on board with this game.
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
@Gorb said:
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
Answer is Warhammer 40k universe is silly already so who cares! There are yellow supermen! So we can make all the silly animations we want! You mean that interview?
@Gorb said:
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
Then isn't it your fault as the moderator or the fault of the community relations team at Relic for not having an area on the forums or a video directing us to where these supposed answers lie? I only ask this because I have followed any and all public relations announcements and have viewed many a forum discussion on graphics, clarity , animations, shield systems, base building and friendly fire and I have not yet found a satisfactory reply to any of my concerns. As what Mr_Ruin said I want this game to succeed, I want to give my hard earned money to Relic but they have handled announcements and public relations in a pretty sub standard way which makes me less inclined to throw money at them and I know it might be a vocal minority but if you look at a good portion of youtube videos reddit post and forum post there are quite a number of people all be it a vocal minority who feel the same way expressing it through discussion or dislikes as it relates to youtube. If there are concrete answers to the questions raised maybe a stickied post on the main forum page with constantly asked question an discussion is the answer but don't expect people to be ok with the current state of affairs.
@SKYL0K said:
So 3 we can chose 3 elites for game and that made me wonder can we chose both imperial knights or wraithknights? Or there will be limit on those? How this with elites will work in skirmish? I would like elite system only in multiplayer and campaign,while in skirmish all those elites can be made as regular units lol.
If I understood correctly (lack of info), you can use any Elites but they will cost elite points. More powerfull units wil cost more and come later into the game. So if your opponent uses 3 early Elites he could push you across the map and you won't get even one Elite until much later. Similar choice to CoH2 commanders. Use early beast commander like Partisans which can rip you apart in first 10 minutes but falls off or Guard Motorised or something like that which gives you a good late game.
There will probably be all units mod like in CoH2.
@SKYL0K said:
So 3 we can chose 3 elites for game and that made me wonder can we chose both imperial knights or wraithknights? Or there will be limit on those? How this with elites will work in skirmish? I would like elite system only in multiplayer and campaign,while in skirmish all those elites can be made as regular units lol.
If I understood correctly (lack of info), you can use any Elites but they will cost elite points. More powerfull units wil cost more and come later into the game. So if your opponent uses 3 early Elites he could push you across the map and you won't get even one Elite until much later. Similar choice to CoH2 commanders. Use early beast commander like Partisans which can rip you apart in first 10 minutes but falls off or Guard Motorised or something like that which gives you a good late game.
There will probably be all units mod like in CoH2.
Yeah I think someone could choose to go an entirely late game build theoretically and just get Knights and Terminators theoretically. Someone could perhaps counter that with an all in early game build.
I'm sure someone will mod in all units, or perhaps they can also allow it as a game setting for custom matches, because though that won't be balanced people should probably be allowed to play like that with friends if they feel like.
@AlternativeIV said:
Then isn't it your fault as the moderator or the fault of the community relations team at Relic for not having an area on the forums or a video directing us to where these supposed answers lie?
Well there is this "Relic Posts" band, and everything there is on this website outside of this very forum. And I'm pretty sure, as I said just a little higher, that there was never a game where they have been answers to almost everything in one place - the exceptions being the fan-made Q&As I saw for a lot for a lot of games (DoW II included), with information collected from every piece of interview of video.
Also, I'm not sure why you would blame a guy who's just there to make people behave decently on the forum for this (it is in my understanding that Gorb doesn't work at Relic at all, that he does it for free, and that is has no real power on the forum except the banhammer - he's not and admin, he can't modifiy the forum at will).
I suppose you could try and reach @Kat_RE for example.
@HiveMind said:
They have done some sneaky colour editing here. Its clearly all signs pointing towards Necrons. Take a look at this edited image, changing the orange to green.
Makes sense that all 3 races would be meeting up for a big reveal also.
But im pretty sure there way a Necron dynasty that had a orange glow but im not too good with the lore.
I think it was the Mephrit dynasty or something like this (hopefuly someone will come and help us on this).
@HiveMind said:
On closer inspection i pulled out a few grabs.
1st is this one below. Can anyone tell me who or what is on this screen and what are the statues that are holding it?
It's probably an Inquisitor of some sort based on the huge sigil just right of his face. Certainly from the Ordo Xenos, judging from the presence of Deathwatch Marines as well. Maybe he is the one who reached the Blood Ravens to find this errant planet, because he heard of the prophecy during onf of his investigations?
Just one more point which i really hope they fix is the bunching up of units. As seen below in the pic of the scouts.
Hu. Are the Sniper Scout squads 5-men of 7-men? Not sure if it is bunching up or cloning. Weird anyway, nice catch.
Also, what's everyone theory on the sea of flesh we see before the Autarch at the 0:59 mark in this video? Looks a bit like what we saw on the trailer than cheering Eldar doesn't it?
@Gorb said:
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
Answer is Warhammer 40k universe is silly already so who cares! There are yellow supermen! So we can make all the silly animations we want! You mean that interview?
Great.
Argument to absurdity is a silly argument, and you, given how long we've known each other, should know better
As I said. You not liking the argument doesn't invalidate said argument. You need to argue against it without misrepresenting what they said into something far more extreme.
@Gorb said:
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
Then isn't it your fault as the moderator or the fault of the community relations team at Relic for not having an area on the forums or a video directing us to where these supposed answers lie? I only ask this because I have followed any and all public relations announcements and have viewed many a forum discussion on graphics, clarity , animations, shield systems, base building and friendly fire and I have not yet found a satisfactory reply to any of my concerns. As what Mr_Ruin said I want this game to succeed, I want to give my hard earned money to Relic but they have handled announcements and public relations in a pretty sub standard way which makes me less inclined to throw money at them and I know it might be a vocal minority but if you look at a good portion of youtube videos reddit post and forum post there are quite a number of people all be it a vocal minority who feel the same way expressing it through discussion or dislikes as it relates to youtube. If there are concrete answers to the questions raised maybe a stickied post on the main forum page with constantly asked question an discussion is the answer but don't expect people to be ok with the current state of affairs.
I moderate the forums; that is literally all I do. If you want something from Relic, I advise either messaging a Relic representative or hitting them up on social media channels. This is a bit of a cop-out answer, I know.
My actions are limited, here, and I also post a lot as a community member (my moderator posts are marked as such. A bit humourously sometimes, but it was a community member who suggested it).
To summarise as best I can, Relic are working towards a goal of visual clarity for both units and effects; units have to be recognisable at a glance (hence why Angelos has unique animations compared to other Terminator units) and effects have to be obvious when they fire (hence the flashy effects on Ork Choppaz that have apparently? been toned down). Relic themselves have a small amount of leeway when adapting things from the source material because, like all adaptations, there's never going to be a 1:1 correlation.
Even Black Library novels don't manage that. Dawn of War (and it's sequels) is simply another adaptation of the source material; it isn't the source material itself. And going on past games, I know that Games Workshop have a longstanding relationship with the studio and have had creative input on the products themselves.
You're still free to disagree with this reasoning. It might not end up being the game for you. I can't and won't force you to believe otherwise.
I simply debate against the people that put forward bad-faith arguments, and attempt to entrap Relic in their own words (by phrasing them in ways that subvert the meaning of said words). Always done it, quite enjoy it. World needs more stuff in good faith
@HiveMind said:
On closer inspection i pulled out a few grabs.
1st is this one below. Can anyone tell me who or what is on this screen and what are the statues that are holding it?
It's probably an Inquisitor of some sort based on the huge sigil just right of his face. Certainly from the Ordo Xenos, judging from the presence of Deathwatch Marines as well. Maybe he is the one who reached the Blood Ravens to find this errant planet, because he heard of the prophecy during onf of his investigations?
Definitely an Inquisitor. Unsure what the statues holding the screens are of though.
Also, noticed there is a Dreadnaught and a Termie with shoulder rockets at the bottom of this grab
Argument to absurdity is a silly argument, and you, given how long we've known each other, should know better
As I said. You not liking the argument doesn't invalidate said argument. You need to argue against it without misrepresenting what they said into something far more extreme.
To summarise as best I can, Relic are working towards a goal of visual clarity for both units and effects; units have to be recognisable at a glance (hence why Angelos has unique animations compared to other Terminator units) and effects have to be obvious when they fire (hence the flashy effects on Ork Choppaz that have apparently? been toned down). Relic themselves have a small amount of leeway when adapting things from the source material because, like all adaptations, there's never going to be a 1:1 correlation.
Even Black Library novels don't manage that. Dawn of War (and it's sequels) is simply another adaptation of the source material; it isn't the source material itself. And going on past games, I know that Games Workshop have a longstanding relationship with the studio and have had creative input on the products themselves.
You're still free to disagree with this reasoning. It might not end up being the game for you. I can't and won't force you to believe otherwise.
I simply debate against the people that put forward bad-faith arguments, and attempt to entrap Relic in their own words (by phrasing them in ways that subvert the meaning of said words). Always done it, quite enjoy it. World needs more stuff in good faith
I work in customer escalation. For me good faith does not exist. There are only those who are guilty and those who are even more guilty. But I appreciate your sentiment.
Reductio ad absurdum maybe is a cheap shot, but to me Gabe's jump is similar. Ok, let's say he can jump in Termi armour and needs to be bigger. So he stands out. Clarity and all that. Ok I can get that. Especially as someone who lost a sniper or two cause of bunching of units (curse you granatenwefer 34 and your RNG). But does he need to be Primarch sized? (Look at Guilliman, now look at your Chapter Master. Your Chapter Master isn't Guilliman but he is the same size now!) And make a salto in the air? Not so sure. But ok that is just me disliking their answer.
Let's get on the cover. They showed us one type of cover and one visual breaker (if I am not mistaken), and the rest is silence. It would help them if they showed us that there are more types not just bubble shields (which look like they are eldaric in origin and I am not sure others would use them with all the distrust of the aeldari - especially Tarkus). And while no game says everything they would do a service to themselves to actually talk to us. I know that, working in customer escalation. That, and reductio ad absurdum, but let's stay on the talk part. People said that cards in HW2 will end up as a mess. Creators made a demo and added Blitz to it. Boom! No more bad comments. Info helps.
And while they said a lot of things it is getting increasingly harder to get a full picture cause there is more and more data in different places and some contradict each other (which is ok taking into account that it is a work in progress) while some other fields are completely untouched. Let's try to ask them for a real Q&A which is going to have a minimum of moderation (like really flaming or something) which would actually allow us to ask a hard question and get some sort of answer, even half baked where they actually explain what the hell is actually happening. And not that ''SM ask a question'' thingie where every 10th post was answered. Everyone asks what bothers him most and get's some sort of answer and everyone is more or less happy. Cause othervise I am going to wait for a Demo or try this on Piratebay first and I think I won't be alone.
This is never going to be my version of Dawn of War. My version would be R-rated, with bigger variation in unit sizes (several astartes vs. a lot of guardsmen), more photo realistic, gritty, with sync kills and gore, outmaneuvering and a loooong campaign written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and would probably cost enough to produce to bankrupt a well standing small country. But this DoW3 still could end up enjoyable and I want to know so I can go to work thinking I am working today to buy DoW3! And not because I took those shifts and cannot back out now.
I agree with Mr_Ruin above, ^ I am really weary of devs avoiding the critical questions - Especially Bethesda when it came to the lore of the Fallout series (Which they utterly manhandled)
I work in customer escalation. For me good faith does not exist. There are only those who are guilty and those who are even more guilty. But I appreciate your sentiment.
Reductio ad absurdum maybe is a cheap shot, but to me Gabe's jump is similar. Ok, let's say he can jump in Termi armour and needs to be bigger. So he stands out. Clarity and all that. Ok I can get that. Especially as someone who lost a sniper or two cause of bunching of units (curse you granatenwefer 34 and your RNG). But does he need to be Primarch sized? (Look at Guilliman, now look at your Chapter Master. Your Chapter Master isn't Guilliman but he is the same size now!) And make a salto in the air? Not so sure. But ok that is just me disliking their answer.
Let's get on the cover. They showed us one type of cover and one visual breaker (if I am not mistaken), and the rest is silence. It would help them if they showed us that there are more types not just bubble shields (which look like they are eldaric in origin and I am not sure others would use them with all the distrust of the aeldari - especially Tarkus). And while no game says everything they would do a service to themselves to actually talk to us. I know that, working in customer escalation. That, and reductio ad absurdum, but let's stay on the talk part. People said that cards in HW2 will end up as a mess. Creators made a demo and added Blitz to it. Boom! No more bad comments. Info helps.
And while they said a lot of things it is getting increasingly harder to get a full picture cause there is more and more data in different places and some contradict each other (which is ok taking into account that it is a work in progress) while some other fields are completely untouched. Let's try to ask them for a real Q&A which is going to have a minimum of moderation (like really flaming or something) which would actually allow us to ask a hard question and get some sort of answer, even half baked where they actually explain what the hell is actually happening. And not that ''SM ask a question'' thingie where every 10th post was answered. Everyone asks what bothers him most and get's some sort of answer and everyone is more or less happy. Cause othervise I am going to wait for a Demo or try this on Piratebay first and I think I won't be alone.
This is never going to be my version of Dawn of War. My version would be R-rated, with bigger variation in unit sizes (several astartes vs. a lot of guardsmen), more photo realistic, gritty, with sync kills and gore, outmaneuvering and a loooong campaign written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and would probably cost enough to produce to bankrupt a well standing small country. But this DoW3 still could end up enjoyable and I want to know so I can go to work thinking I am working today to buy DoW3! And not because I took those shifts and cannot back out now.
All the more reason for the world needing good faith, then!
You understand the arguments of clarity, but you don't understand why Angelos has to jump? To make the ability clear and stand out? The same goes for the model's size (assuming it hasn't been altered and has zero supporting lore arguments)? Why do you understand that him being bigger is okay, but him being a certain apparent size is too much?
This is a lot of the problem, I feel. There are no easy answers to this question. A lot of answers to the same questions are going to be different depending on who you ask.
Which leads us onto questioning the developers. While I'd always support a Q&A (though I don't have any power there), I would not support "minimum" moderation. You can ask hard questions without being rude, disrespectful, or outright flaming. As much moderation as necessary is absolutely fine, so long as the crowd is mature enough to act so and ask the right questions.
Though I would like to know what information contradicts itself - you've given no examples of that. And no, "they said clarity but the game isn't clear to me" isn't an example of the data contradicting itself.
And don't get me start on the piracy angle. You know I know you in that respect, and that's not exactly a change from the norm, for you. That's not a threat Relic should take seriously. And it's disappointing that you'd sink to that kind of act, on here. Nevermind good faith, let's have some basic decency, eh?
there is 100 things i want to say
but there is one thing i need to know
if this is fully capable of archiving via the game engine why not also implement sync kills to the game aswell?
and before anyone say the usual ++heresy redacted++ of player agency and disruption of the flow of battle, i am fully aware of that, and it is none the less still capable of being implemented without disturbing any of them, it would also simmer down the biggest discord the fans of the franchise are having there for a major advantage for the games success
and my question is why not?
i don't even care if the answer is disappointing or not i just want a explanation as to why
The answer of it removing player agency and disrupting the flow of battle is an entirely reasonable reason. However I'm not sure that's the reason Relic gave.
I think Relic said they preferred to increase the blood and gore effects as an alternative.
Also, while that cinematic is in-engine, it's quite obviously still a cinematic. Hand-crafted animations.
@Gorb said:
The answer of it removing player agency and disrupting the flow of battle is an entirely reasonable reason. However I'm not sure that's the reason Relic gave.
Yeah, I had some little butthurts because of sync kills happening when I didn't really want them. I guess there are some ways of making everything cool without them. The ones that we have already seen are quite acceptable to me.
I work in customer escalation. For me good faith does not exist. There are only those who are guilty and those who are even more guilty. But I appreciate your sentiment.
Reductio ad absurdum maybe is a cheap shot, but to me Gabe's jump is similar. Ok, let's say he can jump in Termi armour and needs to be bigger. So he stands out. Clarity and all that. Ok I can get that. Especially as someone who lost a sniper or two cause of bunching of units (curse you granatenwefer 34 and your RNG). But does he need to be Primarch sized? (Look at Guilliman, now look at your Chapter Master. Your Chapter Master isn't Guilliman but he is the same size now!) And make a salto in the air? Not so sure. But ok that is just me disliking their answer.
Let's get on the cover. They showed us one type of cover and one visual breaker (if I am not mistaken), and the rest is silence. It would help them if they showed us that there are more types not just bubble shields (which look like they are eldaric in origin and I am not sure others would use them with all the distrust of the aeldari - especially Tarkus). And while no game says everything they would do a service to themselves to actually talk to us. I know that, working in customer escalation. That, and reductio ad absurdum, but let's stay on the talk part. People said that cards in HW2 will end up as a mess. Creators made a demo and added Blitz to it. Boom! No more bad comments. Info helps.
And while they said a lot of things it is getting increasingly harder to get a full picture cause there is more and more data in different places and some contradict each other (which is ok taking into account that it is a work in progress) while some other fields are completely untouched. Let's try to ask them for a real Q&A which is going to have a minimum of moderation (like really flaming or something) which would actually allow us to ask a hard question and get some sort of answer, even half baked where they actually explain what the hell is actually happening. And not that ''SM ask a question'' thingie where every 10th post was answered. Everyone asks what bothers him most and get's some sort of answer and everyone is more or less happy. Cause othervise I am going to wait for a Demo or try this on Piratebay first and I think I won't be alone.
This is never going to be my version of Dawn of War. My version would be R-rated, with bigger variation in unit sizes (several astartes vs. a lot of guardsmen), more photo realistic, gritty, with sync kills and gore, outmaneuvering and a loooong campaign written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and would probably cost enough to produce to bankrupt a well standing small country. But this DoW3 still could end up enjoyable and I want to know so I can go to work thinking I am working today to buy DoW3! And not because I took those shifts and cannot back out now.
All the more reason for the world needing good faith, then!
You understand the arguments of clarity, but you don't understand why Angelos has to jump? To make the ability clear and stand out? The same goes for the model's size (assuming it hasn't been altered and has zero supporting lore arguments)? Why do you understand that him being bigger is okay, but him being a certain apparent size is too much?
This is a lot of the problem, I feel. There are no easy answers to this question. A lot of answers to the same questions are going to be different depending on who you ask.
Which leads us onto questioning the developers. While I'd always support a Q&A (though I don't have any power there), I would not support "minimum" moderation. You can ask hard questions without being rude, disrespectful, or outright flaming. As much moderation as necessary is absolutely fine, so long as the crowd is mature enough to act so and ask the right questions.
Though I would like to know what information contradicts itself - you've given no examples of that. And no, "they said clarity but the game isn't clear to me" isn't an example of the data contradicting itself.
And don't get me start on the piracy angle. You know I know you in that respect, and that's not exactly a change from the norm, for you. That's not a threat Relic should take seriously. And it's disappointing that you'd sink to that kind of act, on here. Nevermind good faith, let's have some basic decency, eh?
In moderation I thought mainly on disregarding questions if they are not ''omg can't wait for this game omg''. Flaming and similar things should not be accepted (as I wrote).
Some (even most) Chapter Masters are big fellows. Calgar with half his body being bionic (similar to Angelos), is a bit larger than your regular Smurf. As is Asterion Moloc of Minotaurs and so on. Guilliman on the other side is one of the twenty Primarchs that Big E created personally with all of his science and tech and etc. Primarchs are bigger than Terminator decked Astartes (cept' Alpharius). And now some size comparisons.
Gabe is almost head to head with a Primarch. Big no no in Wh40k. But ok, big bionics. Although how his head grew? Maybe he can jump (although he weighs several tons with that much metal), but a triple salto? Wh40k is built on suspension of disbelief, but there are still limits.
Contradicting data? Drop pods heal units (but only if Gabe is around). Armor of Assault Marines is Light/Normal. Lascannon is Void Ray/hellgun.
Look, I am not exactly sure are you British or from some other country and it is not important. But I am from Croatia. And not the rich coast part. 60 Euros is still a lot of money. Not life threatening, but still could roll with it for some time. Add DLC's, expansions, whatnots, Special Edition, etc. we go upwards of 100 Euros. And I should give it without any foreknowledge will I even like the game? Therefore I need more info, I need to try it out for myself before I buy it. Demo, Free weekend, discount, very big coverage or a lot of info or any other thing. I cannot burn 100 Euros on a maybe. Hell, I am currently considering will I get my 12 Euros out of Warhammer Total War if I buy it. I want to be fair but I need them to work with me.
As for his size, again, it could be lore-related, it could be Relic taking liberties with the lore, it could wholly be gameplay-related. There's very little official reasoning on the size of one hero (though it looks like the Terminator-Chaplain is a similar size? Could be wrong, it's a bad angle on it). It's a singular example of a greater trend of dissatisfaction that you and others have with the game. And that's absolutely your right to hold.
But that doesn't make you right, or me wrong. Or me right, and you wrong. I started modding Dawn of War to provide options I felt the game was missing. I understand that people might not feel like they're getting their money's worth.
But definitely wait for a beta in that case. Maybe answers from Relic will help, and I hope you get them. But if you don't, then the only sensible option is to wait for a beta, or some other kind of pre-release programme. I'm British, but I'm not exactly rolling in cash. Game purchases do not come easily to me. I fully support consumer rights when it comes to pre-ordering video games and similar cases. Wait and see, and then decide.
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Comments
Auric
True enough, but the second one is distinctly lacking in giant sword!
AliZz
goes to show that they are not considering the feedback that much seriously (never said ''they did not at all'').
There have been actually a lot of constructive criticism that they have ignored - again I'm capitalizing on this since they said they are open to feedback and the game being in alpha build gave too many people false hope that their feedback may somehow be implemented into the game - such as the one we have already discussed, the animations of certain characters and units (Angelos and Space marines) or even a topic in this forum which discussed why all the tactical marines are hip-firing rather than aiming down the sight, etc. All little issues related to immersion which I think all the previous fans - whether DoW 1 or DoW 2 - can agree upon and modifying them to some extent to win back some of the unsatisfied crowd would be a totally rational move on their part and not doing so is just odd. The thing here is that none of these changes, which again could win back a lot of people to their side, does interfere with their grand and pre-established game design.
I'm simply saying with people who follow the wind wherever it blows ( as we say it in Persian), people who always tend to be at the two extremes ( hate bandwagons and hype trains), this issue will always persist and it in itself leads to another bad move to be made by the developers which is to create flashy trailers to counter the criticisms (simply by exploiting 'hype') instead of actually working on the feedback to gradually win back the crowd. Which I have to give them that, it works like magic, by seeing some of people who were frontiers in saying negative stuff in every video and their comments being top liked, suddenly changing their whole opinion about the game and now saying they are pretty hyped about it! Meanwhile we who took a more neutral position in all this, can't even have our criticisms noticed.
I did not say it to gratify myself, just taking a back seat approach to all this proves that point.
Silk
So your point is that Relic gave false hope to some. Okay, I get why someone would think that and respect that opinion. It is true that the "alpha" and "beta" terms now have a "marketing" meaning they didn't have before, and maybe Relic is being too cautious there.
I get the concept, I just meant that I don't think this situation will change soon unfortunately.
Don't worry, I didn't think your were arrogant or anything. I took the decision to gratify you on your reserved stance, because I think it is the most reasonable approach.
GeneralSkull
why would Macha turn against her own and whats the guard doing here
GeneralSkull
why is my chapter after a spear and i hope we get more about taldeer and her role in this
Mr_Ruin
Look, I want this game to suceed. All of us here want that or we wouldn't waste our time here. But there are criticisms which are going unanswered and I want some answers. Even if it is an answer I don't like. Better to know I won't like this game in the end than to keep up false hope. Or vice versa, why continue worrying if end-product will end up ok. Instead of that, here, have a trailer. I don't have problems with this trailer, actually it is very good. I like it. But I am afraid it is just a smoke screen.
How is this new cover working? Is it just bubble shield or is there more to it? Grass breaking vision? Is that just that (a copy of SC2 mechanic) or is there more to it? Are they even considering changing those stupid Termi animations? How big will maps in the game be? Will there be any incentive to preserve units? And a million others. And no, I don't need definitive answers, I just want to see the way they want to take this game. And then I can decide for myself is this the product I want to buy.
Silk
@Mr_Ruin:
You won't possibly know everything about the game before it is released. No game ever managed to give all the information about it, and I don't think this game will be any different - because there is just too much to know about it, like a lot of games. I suppose you will worry for a lot longer, for this game and for almost every other game you're looking into (except maybe some kickstarted indie-game with basic gameplay).
They also won't answer questions about every little detail because those little details often change on the course of development, and they may announce things that won't be true at launch - causing people to calling them liars or say they were betrayed or whatever. They also have priorities, and while they would certainly change everything to cater to our every exigence, they don't necessarily have the time and the budget to do so. Although I too would prefer if Gabriel Angelos was a bit less swift, I prefer them to work on making a stable, balanced, fun game than on changing esthetic details.
TheHilariousBard
This trailer was the best I've seen so far, where there was some skepticism left in me, it actually drummed up some hype! -- But I can't help but wonder why they didn't show this first. It accentuates the so called "Cartoony" animations and visuals in a way that looks good - Not shown in the plain "Gameplay Unit Breakdowns" that outraged so many people. I'm sure if this had been released right after the first trailer a lot more people would still be on board with this game.
Gorb
The problem is, @Mr_Ruin, is you're still expecting answers to the things you personally consider (more) problematic (than the other things other people consider problematic).
Relic gave answers about the art direction a long time ago (this includes the animations). You (and others) didn't like those answers. And that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that the answers were given. And now, we have this little sub-discussion of how complaints have been ignored? That's not very fair. They haven't been ignored at all - you've just disagreed with the developers on the reasons they've given. And now you want . . . . more reasons? Different reasons? It's hard to tell, because we keep forgetting that these questions already have official developer answers in official developer interviews (and posts from Relic on this very forum).
Mr_Ruin
Answer is Warhammer 40k universe is silly already so who cares! There are yellow supermen! So we can make all the silly animations we want! You mean that interview?
Great.
AlternativeIV
Then isn't it your fault as the moderator or the fault of the community relations team at Relic for not having an area on the forums or a video directing us to where these supposed answers lie? I only ask this because I have followed any and all public relations announcements and have viewed many a forum discussion on graphics, clarity , animations, shield systems, base building and friendly fire and I have not yet found a satisfactory reply to any of my concerns. As what Mr_Ruin said I want this game to succeed, I want to give my hard earned money to Relic but they have handled announcements and public relations in a pretty sub standard way which makes me less inclined to throw money at them and I know it might be a vocal minority but if you look at a good portion of youtube videos reddit post and forum post there are quite a number of people all be it a vocal minority who feel the same way expressing it through discussion or dislikes as it relates to youtube. If there are concrete answers to the questions raised maybe a stickied post on the main forum page with constantly asked question an discussion is the answer but don't expect people to be ok with the current state of affairs.
Mr_Ruin
If I understood correctly (lack of info), you can use any Elites but they will cost elite points. More powerfull units wil cost more and come later into the game. So if your opponent uses 3 early Elites he could push you across the map and you won't get even one Elite until much later. Similar choice to CoH2 commanders. Use early beast commander like Partisans which can rip you apart in first 10 minutes but falls off or Guard Motorised or something like that which gives you a good late game.
There will probably be all units mod like in CoH2.
PhilthyPhilPhD
Yeah I think someone could choose to go an entirely late game build theoretically and just get Knights and Terminators theoretically. Someone could perhaps counter that with an all in early game build.
I'm sure someone will mod in all units, or perhaps they can also allow it as a game setting for custom matches, because though that won't be balanced people should probably be allowed to play like that with friends if they feel like.
GABBO90
The animations and the art style are teerribad compared to starcraft 2 and tw warhammer. I liked that jumping wraithknight tho.
The campaign cinematics look lazy as hell but thats a trademark of the franchise
Silk
Well there is this "Relic Posts" band, and everything there is on this website outside of this very forum. And I'm pretty sure, as I said just a little higher, that there was never a game where they have been answers to almost everything in one place - the exceptions being the fan-made Q&As I saw for a lot for a lot of games (DoW II included), with information collected from every piece of interview of video.
Also, I'm not sure why you would blame a guy who's just there to make people behave decently on the forum for this (it is in my understanding that Gorb doesn't work at Relic at all, that he does it for free, and that is has no real power on the forum except the banhammer - he's not and admin, he can't modifiy the forum at will).
I suppose you could try and reach @Kat_RE for example.
I think it was the Mephrit dynasty or something like this (hopefuly someone will come and help us on this).
It's probably an Inquisitor of some sort based on the huge sigil just right of his face. Certainly from the Ordo Xenos, judging from the presence of Deathwatch Marines as well. Maybe he is the one who reached the Blood Ravens to find this errant planet, because he heard of the prophecy during onf of his investigations?
Hu. Are the Sniper Scout squads 5-men of 7-men? Not sure if it is bunching up or cloning. Weird anyway, nice catch.
Also, what's everyone theory on the sea of flesh we see before the Autarch at the 0:59 mark in this video? Looks a bit like what we saw on the trailer than cheering Eldar doesn't it?
Gorb
Argument to absurdity is a silly argument, and you, given how long we've known each other, should know better
As I said. You not liking the argument doesn't invalidate said argument. You need to argue against it without misrepresenting what they said into something far more extreme.
I moderate the forums; that is literally all I do. If you want something from Relic, I advise either messaging a Relic representative or hitting them up on social media channels. This is a bit of a cop-out answer, I know.
My actions are limited, here, and I also post a lot as a community member (my moderator posts are marked as such. A bit humourously sometimes, but it was a community member who suggested it).
To summarise as best I can, Relic are working towards a goal of visual clarity for both units and effects; units have to be recognisable at a glance (hence why Angelos has unique animations compared to other Terminator units) and effects have to be obvious when they fire (hence the flashy effects on Ork Choppaz that have apparently? been toned down). Relic themselves have a small amount of leeway when adapting things from the source material because, like all adaptations, there's never going to be a 1:1 correlation.
Even Black Library novels don't manage that. Dawn of War (and it's sequels) is simply another adaptation of the source material; it isn't the source material itself. And going on past games, I know that Games Workshop have a longstanding relationship with the studio and have had creative input on the products themselves.
You're still free to disagree with this reasoning. It might not end up being the game for you. I can't and won't force you to believe otherwise.
I simply debate against the people that put forward bad-faith arguments, and attempt to entrap Relic in their own words (by phrasing them in ways that subvert the meaning of said words). Always done it, quite enjoy it. World needs more stuff in good faith
Nautiloidor
Definitely an Inquisitor. Unsure what the statues holding the screens are of though.
Also, noticed there is a Dreadnaught and a Termie with shoulder rockets at the bottom of this grab
MrBenis
She's a farseer. Her job is to interpret the coming events via precognition and prophecy. As for the guard etc they could just be token units.
TheHilariousBard
If I recall correctly, the Guard was also in the original Dawn of War campaign before they were added as a playable army in Winter Assault.
Mr_Ruin
I work in customer escalation. For me good faith does not exist. There are only those who are guilty and those who are even more guilty. But I appreciate your sentiment.
Reductio ad absurdum maybe is a cheap shot, but to me Gabe's jump is similar. Ok, let's say he can jump in Termi armour and needs to be bigger. So he stands out. Clarity and all that. Ok I can get that. Especially as someone who lost a sniper or two cause of bunching of units (curse you granatenwefer 34 and your RNG). But does he need to be Primarch sized? (Look at Guilliman, now look at your Chapter Master. Your Chapter Master isn't Guilliman but he is the same size now!) And make a salto in the air? Not so sure. But ok that is just me disliking their answer.
Let's get on the cover. They showed us one type of cover and one visual breaker (if I am not mistaken), and the rest is silence. It would help them if they showed us that there are more types not just bubble shields (which look like they are eldaric in origin and I am not sure others would use them with all the distrust of the aeldari - especially Tarkus). And while no game says everything they would do a service to themselves to actually talk to us. I know that, working in customer escalation. That, and reductio ad absurdum, but let's stay on the talk part. People said that cards in HW2 will end up as a mess. Creators made a demo and added Blitz to it. Boom! No more bad comments. Info helps.
And while they said a lot of things it is getting increasingly harder to get a full picture cause there is more and more data in different places and some contradict each other (which is ok taking into account that it is a work in progress) while some other fields are completely untouched. Let's try to ask them for a real Q&A which is going to have a minimum of moderation (like really flaming or something) which would actually allow us to ask a hard question and get some sort of answer, even half baked where they actually explain what the hell is actually happening. And not that ''SM ask a question'' thingie where every 10th post was answered. Everyone asks what bothers him most and get's some sort of answer and everyone is more or less happy. Cause othervise I am going to wait for a Demo or try this on Piratebay first and I think I won't be alone.
This is never going to be my version of Dawn of War. My version would be R-rated, with bigger variation in unit sizes (several astartes vs. a lot of guardsmen), more photo realistic, gritty, with sync kills and gore, outmaneuvering and a loooong campaign written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and would probably cost enough to produce to bankrupt a well standing small country. But this DoW3 still could end up enjoyable and I want to know so I can go to work thinking I am working today to buy DoW3! And not because I took those shifts and cannot back out now.
TheHilariousBard
I agree with Mr_Ruin above, ^ I am really weary of devs avoiding the critical questions - Especially Bethesda when it came to the lore of the Fallout series (Which they utterly manhandled)
Gorb
All the more reason for the world needing good faith, then!
You understand the arguments of clarity, but you don't understand why Angelos has to jump? To make the ability clear and stand out? The same goes for the model's size (assuming it hasn't been altered and has zero supporting lore arguments)? Why do you understand that him being bigger is okay, but him being a certain apparent size is too much?
This is a lot of the problem, I feel. There are no easy answers to this question. A lot of answers to the same questions are going to be different depending on who you ask.
Which leads us onto questioning the developers. While I'd always support a Q&A (though I don't have any power there), I would not support "minimum" moderation. You can ask hard questions without being rude, disrespectful, or outright flaming. As much moderation as necessary is absolutely fine, so long as the crowd is mature enough to act so and ask the right questions.
Though I would like to know what information contradicts itself - you've given no examples of that. And no, "they said clarity but the game isn't clear to me" isn't an example of the data contradicting itself.
And don't get me start on the piracy angle. You know I know you in that respect, and that's not exactly a change from the norm, for you. That's not a threat Relic should take seriously. And it's disappointing that you'd sink to that kind of act, on here. Nevermind good faith, let's have some basic decency, eh?
WarEagle
there is 100 things i want to say
but there is one thing i need to know
if this is fully capable of archiving via the game engine why not also implement sync kills to the game aswell?
and before anyone say the usual ++heresy redacted++ of player agency and disruption of the flow of battle, i am fully aware of that, and it is none the less still capable of being implemented without disturbing any of them, it would also simmer down the biggest discord the fans of the franchise are having there for a major advantage for the games success
and my question is why not?
i don't even care if the answer is disappointing or not i just want a explanation as to why
Gorb
The answer of it removing player agency and disrupting the flow of battle is an entirely reasonable reason. However I'm not sure that's the reason Relic gave.
I think Relic said they preferred to increase the blood and gore effects as an alternative.
Also, while that cinematic is in-engine, it's quite obviously still a cinematic. Hand-crafted animations.
Prince_Hatta_First
Yeah, I had some little butthurts because of sync kills happening when I didn't really want them. I guess there are some ways of making everything cool without them. The ones that we have already seen are quite acceptable to me.
Mr_Ruin
In moderation I thought mainly on disregarding questions if they are not ''omg can't wait for this game omg''. Flaming and similar things should not be accepted (as I wrote).
Some (even most) Chapter Masters are big fellows. Calgar with half his body being bionic (similar to Angelos), is a bit larger than your regular Smurf. As is Asterion Moloc of Minotaurs and so on. Guilliman on the other side is one of the twenty Primarchs that Big E created personally with all of his science and tech and etc. Primarchs are bigger than Terminator decked Astartes (cept' Alpharius). And now some size comparisons.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330564-gathering-storm-iii-rise-of-the-primarch-new-video/
Gabe is almost head to head with a Primarch. Big no no in Wh40k. But ok, big bionics. Although how his head grew? Maybe he can jump (although he weighs several tons with that much metal), but a triple salto? Wh40k is built on suspension of disbelief, but there are still limits.
Contradicting data? Drop pods heal units (but only if Gabe is around). Armor of Assault Marines is Light/Normal. Lascannon is Void Ray/hellgun.
Look, I am not exactly sure are you British or from some other country and it is not important. But I am from Croatia. And not the rich coast part. 60 Euros is still a lot of money. Not life threatening, but still could roll with it for some time. Add DLC's, expansions, whatnots, Special Edition, etc. we go upwards of 100 Euros. And I should give it without any foreknowledge will I even like the game? Therefore I need more info, I need to try it out for myself before I buy it. Demo, Free weekend, discount, very big coverage or a lot of info or any other thing. I cannot burn 100 Euros on a maybe. Hell, I am currently considering will I get my 12 Euros out of Warhammer Total War if I buy it. I want to be fair but I need them to work with me.
Gorb
Sorry, I read you wrong on the Q&A then
As for his size, again, it could be lore-related, it could be Relic taking liberties with the lore, it could wholly be gameplay-related. There's very little official reasoning on the size of one hero (though it looks like the Terminator-Chaplain is a similar size? Could be wrong, it's a bad angle on it). It's a singular example of a greater trend of dissatisfaction that you and others have with the game. And that's absolutely your right to hold.
But that doesn't make you right, or me wrong. Or me right, and you wrong. I started modding Dawn of War to provide options I felt the game was missing. I understand that people might not feel like they're getting their money's worth.
But definitely wait for a beta in that case. Maybe answers from Relic will help, and I hope you get them. But if you don't, then the only sensible option is to wait for a beta, or some other kind of pre-release programme. I'm British, but I'm not exactly rolling in cash. Game purchases do not come easily to me. I fully support consumer rights when it comes to pre-ordering video games and similar cases. Wait and see, and then decide.