Hmm really makes me thing :^).
Lets see most if not all those examples I think are accurately represented in terms of power in the model game but lets break down a few now shall we :^)
Eldrad Ulthran:Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
195 5 5 3 4 3 5 1(2) 10 -/3++
Eldrad is probably THE mainstay special character for Eldar armies. As we all know, the dude is rivaled as a (non-cheese) psychic powerhouse only by Ahzek Ahriman: he's got Mastery Level 4, meaning that if you go for Psychic Focus and roll on a single table, you've got access to every power on there except for one (something his Tzeentchian peer can only do with the Tzeentch discipline since he has to generate at least one power from it). He knows Sanctic Daemonology, Telepathy, Divination, and, of course, Runes of Fate. Whereas Ahriman is all about the volume when it comes to mind bullets, Eldrad is all about stability and reliability. He has the usual Farseer toys: Runes of the Farseer, which allows him to re-roll once per turn any number of dice on a psychic test or a Deny the Witch test, and a Ghosthelm, which allows him to spend a warp charge to nullify a wound caused by Perils of the Warp. So like any Farseer, he's already much less likely than other psykers to get turned inside out by daemons or to have his powers fizzle out, even when casting big WC3 stuff. Furthermore, his staff gives him a 33% chance to generate an extra warp charge every time he successfully casts a power; so not only does he have those 4-5 powers, but he's usually got the charges to use all of them.
Besides his psychic prowess, Eldrad also has some nifty wargear. Armour of the Last Runes gives him a 3++ Invulnerable save, which, coupled with his T4, allows him to take more punishment than the average Farseer, though his resilience still isn't anything to write home to Craftworld Ulthwé about. He's got a shuriken pistol (always good to have a Bladestorm weapon handy, and it's an extra close combat attack), a witchblade (Fleshbane! Always wounds on 2+), and let's not forget his all-important psyker disco stick, the Staff of Ulthamar, which is S-User (which doesn't really matter), AP3 AND has Fleshbane and Force. Anything he hits with it gets wounded on 2+, probably doesn't get an armor save, and dies instantly if you activate Force. Enough said. Oh, and his special rules are Fleet, Ancient Doom, Independent Character, Battle Focus, and Psyker. Naturally, his Warlord Trait is An Eye on Distant Events—because, you see, Eldrad is a ++heresy redacted++.
-Hmm looks like Eldrad is represented in the table top as accurately as possible as it relates to the fluff he is just really ++heresy redacted++ expensive. :^)
Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Ragnar Blackmane: 195 6 5 4 4 3 5 4 10 3+/4++
Jesus that ++heresy redacted++ toughness is insane Hmmmm. Also I know you havent played in a tournament setting in the past 5 years because Space Wolves and Grey Knights were the cancer permeating the tournament setting and this guy was lead cancer. He might have not have the same plot armor as represented in the books but he does have an accurate representation of power in the model game.
Ragnar is a powerful close-combat character that specializes in raping hordes of MEQs and GEQs, and he's not half bad against TEQs. He's also a personal favorite of this author, even if he is retardedly overpriced. Like all the Vlka Fenryka Ragnar has Acute Senses and ATSKNF, plus he has Counter Attack, Rage, and Independent Character. He also has Incredible Reflexes which allows him to reroll a single save in every assault phase (including your opponent's phase), Insane Bravado (must give and accept challenges where possible), and War Howl, which gives him and whatever unit he's attached to Furious Charge. His warlord trait, "Saga of the Warrior Born," which allows him to reroll all failed to-hit rolls in a challenge. He can also take two Fenrisian "Wolves" if he so chooses. As far as gear goes he has power armor (notably not runic armor), bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades, melta bombs, belt of russ (gives him an invuln), and a Str+1 AP3 chainsword with MC and rending. With Rage and furious charge, Ragnar is brutal on the charge. Anything without a 2+ armor or a good invuln is dead against Ragnar in a challenge and he stands a fair chance against TEQs due to his volume of attacks and rending, but at the same time his lack of a 2+ armor save means you should keep him away from lots of power weapons. Ideally speaking, stick him in a group of Blood Claws or Grey Hunters with a Wolf Standard. Charge something. That thing dies. Repeat.
Lets see whats next on the list ohh I play IG so lets do those.
OHH ++heresy redacted++ YOU BROUGHT UP TANITHS FIRST
Now Im not going to use your example because I for the most part dont use him or havent but I will bring up Gaunt who has won me mutiple kill team battles along with Apocalypse objective table top games. :^)
Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt[edit]
HQ, 150 pts.
WS 5 BS 5 S 3 T 3 W 3 I 4 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 5+
Composition: 1 Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Unit Type: Infantry (unique)
Wargear: Flak Armour, Bolt Pistol, Sword of Heironymo Sondar (Paragon Blade; see Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal), Camo Cloak, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Warlord Trait: Tactical Genius
Special Rules: Aura of Discipline, Independent Character, Fearless, Stealth, Adamantium Will, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Voice of Command, Senior Officer
My example will be anecdotal but in the Apoc game my Gaunt and his team was able to fight toe to toe with Chaos Abaddon the Despoiler inflicting 3 wounds on the character model before an allied Brother Captain Stern came into close combat and finished him off on the objective. I have more examples of exemplorary heroism by Gaunts ghost that but the book to shame :^).
Next example another Commisar with a decent table top build.
Commissar Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium![edit]
Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Composition
Ciaphas Cain 175 6 5 3 3 3 3 3 10 4+ Infantry (IC) 1 Lord Commissar
Unit Type: Infantry (unique) ((uses the Lord Commissar special rules along with those listed here.))
Wargear: Carapace armour, Laspistol, Cain's Chainsword, Refractor Field.
S AP
Cain's Chainsword +2 3
Special Rules:
Aura of Discipline, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, Night Vision, infiltrate
Hero of the Imperium!: Ciaphas Cain's heroic reputation (regardless of whether it is fraudulent or not) inspires those around him to follow his example. When accompanying a unit, Ciaphas Cain, and the unit he accompanies, are Stubborn. Additionally, all units within 12" of Cain (including one he accompanies) automatically pass tests to Regroup, and may move, shoot (or Run), and declare charges normally in the turn in which they Regroup.
Leader of Men: Even though he is a Commissar, Ciaphas Cain can never use Summary Execution, as this would mean one less body standing between him and danger. He may still execute a Psyker that failed Perils of the Warp test, as per the It's For Your Own Good rule.
Pintle Gunner: While Ciaphas Cain is embarked on a transport vehicle, that vehicle may fire one pintle weapon using Ciaphas Cain's Ballistic Skill, even if the weapon would otherwise fire at Ballistic Skill 1 (firing snap shots, for instance). The other weapons it is normally allowed to fire do so at their normal Ballistic Skill.
Survival Instincts: Commissar Cain's focus on personal safety, and experience in surviving dangerous situations allows him, and any unit he joins, to avoid danger. Cain and any unit he is attached to add 1 to their cover saves. This operates as, and stacks with, the stealth special rule. When he is embarked on a transport, the transport gets the same benefit. The transport may not gain 6+ cover save if it does not have one.
Defensive Fencing Technique: Ciaphas Cain developed his own unique fencing style, which revolves around defensive stances, evasion, counter-attack, and running away. Ciaphas Cain adds 4 to his WS when determining how difficult he is to hit in melee. Furthermore, anyone attempting a Glorious Intervention to get him out of a challenge automatically succeeds.
Run Like Frak! - Ciaphas Cain, and any unit he is attached to, has the Hit and Run special rule, except that they only roll 2d6 inches for the fleeing distance (he can only run so fast!) and always use Cain's Initiative +2 for the test (he's always ready to leg it).
Options: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may be accompanied by Gunner Jurgen (130 pts.)
Transport: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may take a Chimera or a Salamander as dedicated transport.
I guess you dont understand how important a rule like Stubborn is when taking an objective in the table top or the automatic regroup ability. His +1 to cover saves is literally game winng when attached to a Kasrkin squad or any high value unit like veterans or special weapons melta guns. It also accurately reflects his personal nature in the books. Its going to take me a while to bring up other examples because my sources on id4chan are limited and i dont have my pdfs of the rule books or my rule books with my so as for Zahariel and Gregor Im going to need to do more research if there has been a table top with them or an equivalent model. Still as for the Gregor example Krak grenades in the model game are use as close combat weapons against vehicles and have the ability to roll glancing and penetrating hits in some cases against vehicles of all types so i dont understand why or how that is an example of difference in power from fluff to table top Hmmm?
Other than that why would you bring up the Horus Heresy when we are 10k years past said events, I did say that if Relic is going to make Gabriel Primarch tier then maybe they could sell the acrobatics or if they used banned anti grav technology from the dark age of technology neither of those is the reason given and making Gabriel Primarch tiers of power would have to have a ++heresy redacted++ convincing reason.
++heresy redacted++ me I accidentally deleted my other post.
Ill start of with Ragnar, idk if you have participated in any tournament setting in the past 5 years but Space Wolves and Grey have been the cancer in the tourney scene throughout these past few years and Ragnar has been a major tumor on the fun. He dosen't have the same plot armor as he does in the books but he is litearlly impossible to kill if played properly. Its subjective and anecdotal but in all my Tourney scenes as guard I have thrown entire armored companies of Lemun Russes at him which is Ironic (Lemun Russ) not to get a single dent on the character. Now mine might be as anecdotal as yours but his statline in comparison to other models along with his abilites as I said accurately represent his power in the books barring his plot armor.
Ragnar is a powerful close-combat character that specializes in raping hordes of MEQs and GEQs, and he's not half bad against TEQs. He's also a personal favorite of this author, even if he is retardedly overpriced. Like all the Vlka Fenryka Ragnar has Acute Senses and ATSKNF, plus he has Counter Attack, Rage, and Independent Character. He also has Incredible Reflexes which allows him to reroll a single save in every assault phase (including your opponent's phase), Insane Bravado (must give and accept challenges where possible), and War Howl, which gives him and whatever unit he's attached to Furious Charge. His warlord trait, "Saga of the Warrior Born," which allows him to reroll all failed to-hit rolls in a challenge. He can also take two Fenrisian "Wolves" if he so chooses. As far as gear goes he has power armor (notably not runic armor), bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades, melta bombs, belt of russ (gives him an invuln), and a Str+1 AP3 chainsword with MC and rending. With Rage and furious charge, Ragnar is brutal on the charge. Anything without a 2+ armor or a good invuln is dead against Ragnar in a challenge and he stands a fair chance against TEQs due to his volume of attacks and rending, but at the same time his lack of a 2+ armor save means you should keep him away from lots of power weapons. Ideally speaking, stick him in a group of Blood Claws or Grey Hunters with a Wolf Standard. Charge something. That thing dies. Repeat.
Now for Eldrad
Eldrad is probably THE mainstay special character for Eldar armies. As we all know, the dude is rivaled as a (non-cheese) psychic powerhouse only by Ahzek Ahriman: he's got Mastery Level 4, meaning that if you go for Psychic Focus and roll on a single table, you've got access to every power on there except for one (something his Tzeentchian peer can only do with the Tzeentch discipline since he has to generate at least one power from it). He knows Sanctic Daemonology, Telepathy, Divination, and, of course, Runes of Fate. Whereas Ahriman is all about the volume when it comes to mind bullets, Eldrad is all about stability and reliability. He has the usual Farseer toys: Runes of the Farseer, which allows him to re-roll once per turn any number of dice on a psychic test or a Deny the Witch test, and a Ghosthelm, which allows him to spend a warp charge to nullify a wound caused by Perils of the Warp. So like any Farseer, he's already much less likely than other psykers to get turned inside out by daemons or to have his powers fizzle out, even when casting big WC3 stuff. Furthermore, his staff gives him a 33% chance to generate an extra warp charge every time he successfully casts a power; so not only does he have those 4-5 powers, but he's usually got the charges to use all of them.
Besides his psychic prowess, Eldrad also has some nifty wargear. Armour of the Last Runes gives him a 3++ Invulnerable save, which, coupled with his T4, allows him to take more punishment than the average Farseer, though his resilience still isn't anything to write home to Craftworld Ulthwé about. He's got a shuriken pistol (always good to have a Bladestorm weapon handy, and it's an extra close combat attack), a witchblade (Fleshbane! Always wounds on 2+), and let's not forget his all-important psyker disco stick, the Staff of Ulthamar, which is S-User (which doesn't really matter), AP3 AND has Fleshbane and Force. Anything he hits with it gets wounded on 2+, probably doesn't get an armor save, and dies instantly if you activate Force. Enough said. Oh, and his special rules are Fleet, Ancient Doom, Independent Character, Battle Focus, and Psyker. Naturally, his Warlord Trait is An Eye on Distant Events—because, you see, Eldrad is a ++heresy redacted++.
With the change in how Pskers function the most recent rule Eldrad is the ultimate cheese and a massive piece of ++heresy redacted++. In the 2 years since the most recent edition of the rules came out I havent played against another Eldar player from points 1000 up to 15k apoc games who havent run this pysker asshole.
Composition: 1 Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Unit Type: Infantry (unique)
Wargear: Flak Armour, Bolt Pistol, Sword of Heironymo Sondar (Paragon Blade; see Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal), Camo Cloak, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Warlord Trait: Tactical Genius
Special Rules: Aura of Discipline, Independent Character, Fearless, Stealth, Adamantium Will, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Voice of Command, Senior Officer
I'm not using your example but my own as it relates to Taniths first and Gaunts ghost. I used Gaunt alot in kill team games and as a special leader in a Apoc games which his Infiltrate ability and his fearless ability can be made use of to great effect. An anecdotal example of Gaunt living up to his name in the books which I have read is an apoc game I played where Gaunt was holding a contested objective with veterans squad. The contestor of the objective was one Abaddon the Despoiler, now I lost almost the entire veterans squad in the process but Gaunt survived and was able to do 3 wounds to Abaddon which I believe is a feat more heroic than any he did in the books. Albeit he was saved by one allied Brother Captain Stern who came into close combat to finish off Abaddon but i think that example is telling of a model being represented well in the model game as it relates to his fluff.
Next up is Commissar Ciaphas Cain,
1 Lord Commissar
Unit Type: Infantry (unique) ((uses the Lord Commissar special rules along with those listed here.))
Wargear: Carapace armour, Laspistol, Cain's Chainsword, Refractor Field.
S AP
Cain's Chainsword +2 3
Special Rules:
Aura of Discipline, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, Night Vision, infiltrate
Hero of the Imperium!: Ciaphas Cain's heroic reputation (regardless of whether it is fraudulent or not) inspires those around him to follow his example. When accompanying a unit, Ciaphas Cain, and the unit he accompanies, are Stubborn. Additionally, all units within 12" of Cain (including one he accompanies) automatically pass tests to Regroup, and may move, shoot (or Run), and declare charges normally in the turn in which they Regroup.
Leader of Men: Even though he is a Commissar, Ciaphas Cain can never use Summary Execution, as this would mean one less body standing between him and danger. He may still execute a Psyker that failed Perils of the Warp test, as per the It's For Your Own Good rule.
Pintle Gunner: While Ciaphas Cain is embarked on a transport vehicle, that vehicle may fire one pintle weapon using Ciaphas Cain's Ballistic Skill, even if the weapon would otherwise fire at Ballistic Skill 1 (firing snap shots, for instance). The other weapons it is normally allowed to fire do so at their normal Ballistic Skill.
Survival Instincts: Commissar Cain's focus on personal safety, and experience in surviving dangerous situations allows him, and any unit he joins, to avoid danger. Cain and any unit he is attached to add 1 to their cover saves. This operates as, and stacks with, the stealth special rule. When he is embarked on a transport, the transport gets the same benefit. The transport may not gain 6+ cover save if it does not have one.
Defensive Fencing Technique: Ciaphas Cain developed his own unique fencing style, which revolves around defensive stances, evasion, counter-attack, and running away. Ciaphas Cain adds 4 to his WS when determining how difficult he is to hit in melee. Furthermore, anyone attempting a Glorious Intervention to get him out of a challenge automatically succeeds.
Run Like Frak! - Ciaphas Cain, and any unit he is attached to, has the Hit and Run special rule, except that they only roll 2d6 inches for the fleeing distance (he can only run so fast!) and always use Cain's Initiative +2 for the test (he's always ready to leg it).
Options: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may be accompanied by Gunner Jurgen (130 pts.)
Transport: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may take a Chimera or a Salamander as dedicated transport.
How is his personality and achievements not accurately reflected in his model rules here rofl. His Leader of Men and Survival Instincts abilities are literally game winnning when used in conjunction with a squad of Kasrkins or Veterans while holding an objective or going for an assassination. Other than that i dont understand why using a power sword and Krak grenade are that unbelievable to break open a piece of armor when that is what they are designed to do? As for the other examples why would you bring up the Horus Heresy when its 10k years far removed and a vast majority of weapon systems used at the time are lost or out right banned for fear of corruption by the xenos menace. As I said before it would still be reasonable for outlawed anti grav tech to be used by Gabriel because Space Marine chapters namely Dark Angels and Blood Ravens use any and all means to achieve there goals but that isnt the reason given as to why Gabriel can jump like a ++heresy redacted++ Kangaroo. >inb4 muh doom hammer. I understand Relic needs to and can take massive liberties on an IP with pre established lore for gameplay reasons but if they are going to do so they better give an explanation other than "XD the 40k universe is so random who cares for internal logical consistency XD" because Gabriel literally has Primarch tier abilites and I dont mind if they do so just give a decent explanation for it rofl.
I would advise against posting full statlines and point values on here, GW is historically very tight about such things which is why no online 40k community allows such posts to remain.
That being said, you won't find a single 40k community that accepts rules as valid arguments in a lore debate. The rules don't account for Dante defeating Skarbrand in close combat, nor Kaldor Draigo defeating the daemon primarch Mortarion (inside the warp no less), nor Calgar defeating The Avatar of Khaine. All of those things have happened in the lore.
@Orblivion said:
I would advise against posting full statlines and point values on here, GW is historically very tight about such things which is why no online 40k community allows such posts to remain.
That being said, you won't find a single 40k community that accepts rules as valid arguments in a lore debate. The rules don't account for Dante defeating Skarbrand in close combat, nor Kaldor Draigo defeating the daemon primarch Mortarion (inside the warp no less), nor Calgar defeating The Avatar of Khaine. All of those things have happened in the lore.
God I hate GW you are right about their stupid statline IP bullshti ty for reminding me, but as for the argument, "The Tabletop game itself isn't a realistic representation of the universe; that's why they supplement it with lore entries in the Codices and Black Library novels" which I was trying to prove as false by way of the rules which is the most common source of lore and fluff. As such I must ask which communities are you referring too because I mainly visit /tg/ when it comes to discussion about meta and fluff and we have discussed lore as it relates to gameplay and vice versa so I am just curious which communities you are referring to that have the authority to make statements where in rule sets have nothing to do with lore because with some units in 40k all we have is the fluff from the codexes and rules books?
Personally I find the lore an acceptable way of modelling simple comparisons. A Guardsman has S3, a Space Marine S4, so the Marine is stronger. That kind of stuff. I'd say for simple comparisons like that the rules are valid, after all GW strives (I assume) to make them consistent with the lore.
It isn't that everything from the codices are invalid, it's just the actual statlines for characters and equipment that simply don't represent the lore. The example I gave of Dante defeating Skarbrand is actually found in the Blood Angels codex, the very same codex in which his statline illustrates how impossible it is for him defeat Skarbrand within the rules of the actual game. Lore found in a codex is not part of the rules, it is still lore.
As far as communities are concerned, the largest I visit are DakkaDakka and BolterAndChainsword. DakkaDakka even goes so far as to separate tabletop and lore discussions into different sub-forums. BolterAndChainsword does not, but you'll still catch a ton of flak if you throw a statline into a lore debate.
Theories? It's just animation design choices, People agree they made the wrong choice, and no matter how Relic try to cover it with some background material, it looks bad, like with the tabletop game, sometimes the designers simply make a bad choices, just look at the Taurox (which of course Relic is going to bring it, aren't you Relic?), the Dreadknight (again, another one I suspect Relic wants to add to the game) and the Lord of Skulls (yep, I suspect this one too is high in their to-do-list).
The funny thing is that sometimes even Games Workshop themselves recognize they made a terrible mistake, hence why they had to elaborate and downgrade Kaldor's fluff tone down and put their top writers in charge of the Ultramarines background, to the point where they got Guilliman recognizing the Codex is flawed and open to interpretation, or create the Kytan Daemon Engine kit to fix the Lord of Skulls.
But then again, sometimes some people think loving and caring about a franchise is about agreeing with everything the developers and designers do.
@Olteonz said:
So me and my wh40k loving pals decided to have a brainstorm on skype about the abnormal vertical velocity Gabriel is able to produce in his terminator plate, and these are our resulting theories, all based on either the lexicanum, speculation or pure logic.
THEORY I - The God-splitter theory - The God-splitter is an artifact containing a shard of the Wailing Doom, a non-mortal weapon capable of wounding demons and has a large psychic power contained within it. If we assume that the weapon was constructed witht he purpose of combating powerful demons, then its wielder would require aid beyond a good Hammer. It has been scientificly proven that striking ones face is the most effective way of elimination, and as powerful demons tend to be quite large and tall, it seems only logical that the hammer itself would aid its wielder with accelerating him in the direction of his choosing, be it vertical or horizontal.
THEORY II - The Physics theory - Terminator armour comes with electrically-motivated fibre bundles that allow the wearer to move in this exceptionaly heavy suit of protection. It has a static amount of force it can produce, BUT the weight of terminator armour is not static. If the planet on which the action of DoW 3 is situated is exceptionaly small and/or compries of lower density matter then the gravitational pull would also be weaker, making the suit's weight subjectively smaller allowing its fibre bundles to do more than on standard earth mass body.
THEORY III - The Armour theory - As the Blood Ravens are known for their "lust" for aquiring relics and artifacts, Gabriel's armour might be just that. A relic long lost constructed with the purpose of mobility in mind. Having either more or higher tech fibre bundles, or supported by different tech like pneumatic servos and a larger power supply might explain his acrobatic prowess.
THEORY IV - The Warp Did It theory - Either gabriel is a chaos follower or has immense psychic potential, the planet is a home to large amounts of warp energy or some other sort of warp manipulation. If gabriel belived himself to be able to summer-sault through the air enough and there was either enough warp energy or he's a powerful psycher, then that would be the case. Quite an unlikely theory but never the less a plausible one.
We have come to the conclusion that it is most likely a combination of the first 3 theories in some proportions. If you have any other ideas for the cause of Gabriel's leg strenght you are welcome to post them here, and we can have a discussion about it.
Nah, it's just the developers being a bit too liberal with animation. The Eldar can stick to these anime acrobatics, but it's completely out of place for a Space Marine.
Eisenhorn (literally opens up a Chaos Dreadnought with a krak grenade and a sword).
Ravenor (psyker abilities beyond that of his potential).
Eldrad. Literally reshapes reality when he feels like it. Rules not accurately represented by Tabletop.
Same goes for Ahriman, really.
Any of the Gaunt's Ghosts. In order not to be cheap, this will be one entry. Though they're all meant to be Guardsmen. Bragg especially. Poor Bragg.
Ragnar Blackmane. Youngest Wolf Lord basically ever, repeatedly performs feats of unbelievable strength and agility (in powered armour). Again, Tabletop rules don't accurately reflect all the stuff the Space Wolf novels say he did.
Ragnar's Space Wolf brother who can lift entire sections of wall and other things normally impossible for even Space Marines. Haegr the Mountain, Russ take his name.
Any of the numerous characters in the Horus Heresy novels that perform magical acts just when the plot required them too, including both Garviel Loken and Nathaniel Garro. Another one-line entry.
Ciaphas Cain.
Any of the Perpetuals, also from the Horus Heresy novels, but a different class of creature. No comparable Tabletop rules.
Zahariel (Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels). Ridiculous-level hidden psyker. Rumoured to be (the modern) Cypher.
Okay, so that's a minimum of thirteen, with some of those being multiple examples (it's 11.40pm here). Gabriel Angelos is a named Commander and Chapter Master of a Space Marine Chapter which puts him on equal (or greater) footing than a lot of these folks here.
Rules aren't the be-all-and-end-all.
I appreciate and understand that everyone has different limits for what they find acceptable in the Dawn of War games (Khornate Sorcerors, heh), but a Chapter Master performing a big jump isn't, for me, that big of a deal.
Especially when (coming in at number 14), Apollo Diomedes can straight-up cause earthquakes if you upgrade him correctly in Dawn of War II: Retribution.
All of that is very valid, however, I would say that the real reason people are pissed of is not because it breaks the lore, but rather that it breaks the main theme of space marine. When creating factions within any medium it is vital that they are unique and distinguishable. In terms of table top and video games, this means injecting each faction with particular themes and attribute that define them. It is the goal of an RTS game (also table top) to try to represent different aspect of the lore rather than being faithful, for example lore wise it makes no sense how space marine can lose an entire chapter within some of the campaign mission. The compromise is that space marine have smaller squad sizes and that is how the game represent the fact that spaces marines are meant to be a powerful but small in number.
There are several problem with the Gabriel jumping animation that do not come from a lore perspective:
1. The backflip is unnecessary. Such an animation would be fine for the Orks or Eldar heroes since it fits the tone of those faction.
2. Such an animation overlaps with other factions theme
3. Assault Marines require jump pack in order to "Jump", therefore, Gabriel should be using some form of technology in order to accomplish this action for example teleporter.
Also the things you mention were written down in books, and are not a good comparison to the current situation considering this is a visual medium. Gabriel Angelos jumping might not be as over the top when written down.
That being said I am actually fine with the jumping ability, but remove the backflip. The best improve would be, as mention ages ago, to replace it would a short range teleport above the enemy. That would fit with Gabriel Angelos being portrayed as a strategist since by using gravity to his advantage.
And my repeated point, which I wish people would simply understand, is that is simply your opinion of what you find acceptable. Other people can and will have different thresholds.
Relic can't cater to everybody's individual limits in this manner, and of course being human they have opinions on the lore of their own. Which is why we get the game as it is, and not the game if some other group of 40k fans was making it (and Relic are / have a lot of 40k fans, even to this day).
They're still not able to do things that they do in the lore. The lore allows these characters to perform feats that their Tabletop rules say they can't.
It's as simple as that, really.
And some of them flat-out don't exist in Tabletop!
I already speculated that Gabe is so big cause he was stung by space bees. Whenever I see that picture in which his head is larger that regular SM's helmeted one that is one of the possibilities I can think of. Or he is an Ork in disquise and he is so good that he started growing cause of it. How did Ravens not notice? Or they did and though ok, who cares? Similar to the 1d4chan story of Blood Ravens stealing Bjorn the Fell Handed ...
And flying through the air? Well, Tartaros armour is the most mobile Termi armour and maybe it is a low gravity planet, but then why are not all SM's kung-fu fighting? And while there are crazy abilities in DoW2 most are very high lvl ones and producers didn't know how to up the ante from past abilities (heroes have 20 or more abilities in campaigns), but there is no need to continue with that if they have 2 or 3 abilities each.
@Gorb said:
And my repeated point, which I wish people would simply understand, is that is simply your opinion of what you find acceptable. Other people can and will have different thresholds.
Relic can't cater to everybody's individual limits in this manner, and of course being human they have opinions on the lore of their own. Which is why we get the game as it is, and not the game if some other group of 40k fans was making it (and Relic are / have a lot of 40k fans, even to this day).
And our repeated point is we really dislike that animation. Like REALLY DISLIKE it. They don't have to agree with that. But we can still put it here as many times as necessary to get that particular point through.
That's fine, but I wasn't replying to your concerns. I mean, open forum, but you must understand if I'm talking to someone else, even in general terms, I'm not talking to you at the same time
People can have as many problems with as many aspects of the game as they want.
But if you start to phrase it in a way that suggests Relic needs to something because something is definitively wrong, then we have an issue that needs correcting. Because there are very few things that are definitively wrong when it comes to a reader's intepretation of a fantasy universe.
I'd love to debate the actual fantasy universe itself til the end of time. I still love 40k, even if I don't have time to play the physical game. But people are too concerned with having the right opinions, when in fact everyone's opinion is "right". Or valid, to use a better word.
@Gorb - A lot of people want to be validated probably. Interesting to hear though what percentage of the community do you think dislikes the animation and would prefer a different one?
@Aren73 said: @Gorb - A lot of people want to be validated probably. Interesting to hear though what percentage of the community do you think dislikes the animation and would prefer a different one?
We already talked about that a long time ago. If I am not mistaken Gorb's main idea is even if we did that it would still be thoughts of this forum community, not everyone who will ever play DoW3. Therefore not official or something. I disagree partly with that opinion, but it is still a valid opinion.
@Aren73 said: @Gorb - A lot of people want to be validated probably. Interesting to hear though what percentage of the community do you think dislikes the animation and would prefer a different one?
We already talked about that a long time ago. If I am not mistaken Gorb's main idea is even if we did that it would still be thoughts of this forum community, not everyone who will ever play DoW3. Therefore not official or something. I disagree partly with that opinion, but it is still a valid opinion.
Sure, what I'm getting at is that the forum community and the people following this game on Youtube are the ones most likely to play. We are the ones most likely to be the DoW3 gaming community and as such our opinions should be at the very least considered. I also think that there is a large percentage of the community, about 40-50% who dislike (even if just a tiny bit) the animation. I then think a further 55-45% don't care and another 5% like the animation (animation purely not the gamplay options it offers). So while the ones who dislike it are in the minority (40%) they are in the vast majority of those who like it.
Of course my numbers may be wrong, the people who dislike it might be just an extremely vocal tiny minority but what I can say is that those who dislike it are definitely in majority of those who like it.
However, usually with these things they scale up so what you see here on the forums is probably more or less represented by most of the future fans who already know the 40k universe or DoW games previously.
It's an interesting topic, but not one I feel would benefit from me walloftexting a thread about Angelos' acrobatic prowess
I've been around this specific community for a very long time, and there are a lot of recurring posters. I use that to support my general points (insofar as I make general points) and people can absolutely come up with different percentages, or different arguments. But that's where I come from.
All I want is for people to give Relic's opinions and arguments the validity they give to their own, because this is one of the key challenges games designers face on a daily basis (entertaining and reconciling opposing opinions on something that they have a hand in creating).
@Aren73 said: @Gorb - A lot of people want to be validated probably. Interesting to hear though what percentage of the community do you think dislikes the animation and would prefer a different one?
We already talked about that a long time ago. If I am not mistaken Gorb's main idea is even if we did that it would still be thoughts of this forum community, not everyone who will ever play DoW3. Therefore not official or something. I disagree partly with that opinion, but it is still a valid opinion.
Sure, what I'm getting at is that the forum community and the people following this game on Youtube are the ones most likely to play. We are the ones most likely to be the DoW3 gaming community and as such our opinions should be at the very least considered. I also think that there is a large percentage of the community, about 40-50% who dislike (even if just a tiny bit) the animation. I then think a further 55-45% don't care and another 5% like the animation (animation purely not the gamplay options it offers). So while the ones who dislike it are in the minority (40%) they are in the vast majority of those who like it.
Of course my numbers may be wrong, the people who dislike it might be just an extremely vocal tiny minority but what I can say is that those who dislike it are definitely in majority of those who like it.
However, usually with these things they scale up so what you see here on the forums is probably more or less represented by most of the future fans who already know the 40k universe or DoW games previously.
You are preaching to the choir. I wanted to make that vote some time ago. I think percentage of ppl disliking it is even higher. But I am just repeating what Gorb told me so he doesn't have to wall of text us. Again. Or lock the thread. Again.
I never lock threads I'm involved in, unless it's absolutely necessary and there's no-one else around.
C'mon. For someone who's known me for so long, there's no need for that kind of cheap attack. I mark all my moderator posts as moderator posts these days, too
@Gorb said:
I never lock threads I'm involved in, unless it's absolutely necessary and there's no-one else around.
C'mon. For someone who's known me for so long, there's no need for that kind of cheap attack. I mark all my moderator posts as moderator posts these days, too
I am not attacking, I am just trying to say that ''let's make a vote'' won't work cause I know what I was told the last time I tried.
Well, it's a bit silly (also I can't create polls, sorry). It doesn't prove much, because the posts you are all already making Relic are already reading!
And recently we've seen direct evidence of that. So I feel pretty comfortable in maintaining my opinion, there
@Gorb said:
Well, it's a bit silly (also I can't create polls, sorry). It doesn't prove much, because the posts you are all already making Relic are already reading!
And recently we've seen direct evidence of that. So I feel pretty comfortable in maintaining my opinion, there
Actually saw some evidence of them reading, about outlines and things like that. Who knows, maybe they also stop giving growing pills to Gabe as well. And take him off ballet classes.
Even if he could leap off the ground, how does he land without damage?
Terminator armor isn't exactly made for the impact of falling large distances, and even if it was some special suit, the weight of the accelerated mass of the universes biggest space marine wearing giant armor impacting the ground would probably lodge his feet into it.
Maybe they should make him take 1/3rd of his health damage every time the silly thing is used with a 50% chance to be immobilized?
This is Relic though, who also released a book that said the Dark Eldar worshiped Slaanesh about DoW. So their statements about not caring about authenticity aren't exactly new.
Also randomly, showing people who are fans of universe the video of the leaping terminator is kind of fun. Every single one of them have gone from "oh wow there's a new DoW?" to saying rude words about it. I know this isn't "valid" until I ask every person on the planet, but it's kind of telling of the general opinion.
@Misery said:
Even if he could leap off the ground, how does he land without damage?
Terminator armor isn't exactly made for the impact of falling large distances, and even if it was some special suit, the weight of the accelerated mass of the universes biggest space marine wearing giant armor impacting the ground would probably lodge his feet into it.
Maybe they should make him take 1/3rd of his health damage every time the silly thing is used with a 50% chance to be immobilized?
This is Relic though, who also released a book that said the Dark Eldar worshiped Slaanesh about DoW. So their statements about not caring about authenticity aren't exactly new.
Also randomly, showing people who are fans of universe the video of the leaping terminator is kind of fun. Every single one of them have gone from "oh wow there's a new DoW?" to saying rude words about it. I know this isn't "valid" until I ask every person on the planet, but it's kind of telling of the general opinion.
I find it more amusing how fickle 'fans' can be. Relic have been playing fast and loose with the lore for the purposes of creating the game they want to create for ages. From marines that teleport in to reinforce their squad in the middle of a battle (WITHOUT terminator armour? HERESY) to captain's that can cause the ground to rupture in a big way when they swing their sword particularly hard. Hell, how about the fact that marines are building bases AT ALL? What about Eldar tanks being the slowest in DOW2?
It's all put in to try and create a game that works and that people find enjoyable. For all their flaws, I haven't had a Dawn of War game that I didn't enjoy (yes, even Soulstorm). Maybe people should just relax on this whole 'disregard for the lore' and realise it has been going on for a long time, and for a good reason.
I was honestly thinking the exact same thing. Since the prophecy of war teaser I've seen so much less hate for the game. Everybody is all aboard the hypetrukk now. Which is kinda funny because there was absolutely no gameplay at all.
Nothing against the game, but it just shows the sad state of the industry. Hype everything all the time. Pre-order super-exclusive-ultra edition with a crossbow.
@Misery said:
Even if he could leap off the ground, how does he land without damage?
Terminator armor isn't exactly made for the impact of falling large distances, and even if it was some special suit, the weight of the accelerated mass of the universes biggest space marine wearing giant armor impacting the ground would probably lodge his feet into it.
Maybe they should make him take 1/3rd of his health damage every time the silly thing is used with a 50% chance to be immobilized?
This is Relic though, who also released a book that said the Dark Eldar worshiped Slaanesh about DoW. So their statements about not caring about authenticity aren't exactly new.
Also randomly, showing people who are fans of universe the video of the leaping terminator is kind of fun. Every single one of them have gone from "oh wow there's a new DoW?" to saying rude words about it. I know this isn't "valid" until I ask every person on the planet, but it's kind of telling of the general opinion.
Ragnar Blackmane and his pack dropped hundreds of metres into a Space Hulk with no obvious damage suffered. In regular Power Armour.
Terminator Armour was made so that a Titan can stand on it, and the wearer survive (this is one of the earliest recorded pieces of rulebook lore on Terminator Armour, too). I'm not sure you can make assumptions on "what it was made for".
The book I think you're referring to must've been a DoW official novel kind of thing? Which wasn't written by anyone at Relic, and published by Black Library.
Unless someone at Relic did write a novel and I'm not aware of it!
@Gorb said:
Terminator Armour was made so that a Titan can stand on it, and the wearer survive (this is one of the earliest recorded pieces of rulebook lore on Terminator Armour, too). I'm not sure you can make assumptions on "what it was made for".
It's not the armor that's the cause for concern but the guy in it. If you're in a thick metal box dropped from a high height, the metal box will probably survive unscathed, but you'll still feel the full force of the landing and probably not, even normal assault marines with jump packs use them to slow the decent. A Space Hulk is in space, and that's from a novel anyway.
The book I think you're referring to must've been a DoW official novel kind of thing? Which wasn't written by anyone at Relic, and published by Black Library.
Unless someone at Relic did write a novel and I'm not aware of it!
If they didn't even bother to read the promotional novel series that came with their game to check it for nonsense, it doesn't really help to illustrate they care about authenticity does it? Thats not even an isolated case, we've gone from those novels in DoW and the basically nonsensically important Blood Raven's story to khorne sorcerers in DoW II. The point is no one should be surprised by Relic saying they don't care about the universe it's set in or authenticity as it's been that way basically since the start.
@Auric said:
It's all put in to try and create a game that works and that people find enjoyable. For all their flaws, I haven't had a Dawn of War game that I didn't enjoy (yes, even Soulstorm). Maybe people should just relax on this whole 'disregard for the lore' and realise it has been going on for a long time, and for a good reason.
There's degrees to that though. On one side there's minor things like the 3 man tactical squads that aren't exactly typical (though might happen) but are understandable from a gameplay perspective. Some other things they're doing and done though don't really add anything to the experience and just end up diluting the setting down for no benefit.
If they really don't care about making it an "authentic" experience then they might as well just make their own game in their own universe. That way they can do whatever with, like Blizzard did for different reasons where they can have free reign and not put off people.
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Renner
How could you forget Kaldor Draigo...
AlternativeIV
Hmm really makes me thing :^).
Lets see most if not all those examples I think are accurately represented in terms of power in the model game but lets break down a few now shall we :^)
Eldrad Ulthran:Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
195 5 5 3 4 3 5 1(2) 10 -/3++
Eldrad is probably THE mainstay special character for Eldar armies. As we all know, the dude is rivaled as a (non-cheese) psychic powerhouse only by Ahzek Ahriman: he's got Mastery Level 4, meaning that if you go for Psychic Focus and roll on a single table, you've got access to every power on there except for one (something his Tzeentchian peer can only do with the Tzeentch discipline since he has to generate at least one power from it). He knows Sanctic Daemonology, Telepathy, Divination, and, of course, Runes of Fate. Whereas Ahriman is all about the volume when it comes to mind bullets, Eldrad is all about stability and reliability. He has the usual Farseer toys: Runes of the Farseer, which allows him to re-roll once per turn any number of dice on a psychic test or a Deny the Witch test, and a Ghosthelm, which allows him to spend a warp charge to nullify a wound caused by Perils of the Warp. So like any Farseer, he's already much less likely than other psykers to get turned inside out by daemons or to have his powers fizzle out, even when casting big WC3 stuff. Furthermore, his staff gives him a 33% chance to generate an extra warp charge every time he successfully casts a power; so not only does he have those 4-5 powers, but he's usually got the charges to use all of them.
Besides his psychic prowess, Eldrad also has some nifty wargear. Armour of the Last Runes gives him a 3++ Invulnerable save, which, coupled with his T4, allows him to take more punishment than the average Farseer, though his resilience still isn't anything to write home to Craftworld Ulthwé about. He's got a shuriken pistol (always good to have a Bladestorm weapon handy, and it's an extra close combat attack), a witchblade (Fleshbane! Always wounds on 2+), and let's not forget his all-important psyker disco stick, the Staff of Ulthamar, which is S-User (which doesn't really matter), AP3 AND has Fleshbane and Force. Anything he hits with it gets wounded on 2+, probably doesn't get an armor save, and dies instantly if you activate Force. Enough said. Oh, and his special rules are Fleet, Ancient Doom, Independent Character, Battle Focus, and Psyker. Naturally, his Warlord Trait is An Eye on Distant Events—because, you see, Eldrad is a ++heresy redacted++.
-Hmm looks like Eldrad is represented in the table top as accurately as possible as it relates to the fluff he is just really ++heresy redacted++ expensive. :^)
Ragnar Blackmane: 195 6 5 4 4 3 5 4 10 3+/4++
Jesus that ++heresy redacted++ toughness is insane Hmmmm. Also I know you havent played in a tournament setting in the past 5 years because Space Wolves and Grey Knights were the cancer permeating the tournament setting and this guy was lead cancer. He might have not have the same plot armor as represented in the books but he does have an accurate representation of power in the model game.
Ragnar is a powerful close-combat character that specializes in raping hordes of MEQs and GEQs, and he's not half bad against TEQs. He's also a personal favorite of this author, even if he is retardedly overpriced. Like all the Vlka Fenryka Ragnar has Acute Senses and ATSKNF, plus he has Counter Attack, Rage, and Independent Character. He also has Incredible Reflexes which allows him to reroll a single save in every assault phase (including your opponent's phase), Insane Bravado (must give and accept challenges where possible), and War Howl, which gives him and whatever unit he's attached to Furious Charge. His warlord trait, "Saga of the Warrior Born," which allows him to reroll all failed to-hit rolls in a challenge. He can also take two Fenrisian "Wolves" if he so chooses. As far as gear goes he has power armor (notably not runic armor), bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades, melta bombs, belt of russ (gives him an invuln), and a Str+1 AP3 chainsword with MC and rending. With Rage and furious charge, Ragnar is brutal on the charge. Anything without a 2+ armor or a good invuln is dead against Ragnar in a challenge and he stands a fair chance against TEQs due to his volume of attacks and rending, but at the same time his lack of a 2+ armor save means you should keep him away from lots of power weapons. Ideally speaking, stick him in a group of Blood Claws or Grey Hunters with a Wolf Standard. Charge something. That thing dies. Repeat.
Lets not kid ourselves now.
AlternativeIV
Lets see whats next on the list ohh I play IG so lets do those.
OHH ++heresy redacted++ YOU BROUGHT UP TANITHS FIRST
Now Im not going to use your example because I for the most part dont use him or havent but I will bring up Gaunt who has won me mutiple kill team battles along with Apocalypse objective table top games. :^)
Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt[edit]
HQ, 150 pts.
WS 5 BS 5 S 3 T 3 W 3 I 4 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 5+
Composition: 1 Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Unit Type: Infantry (unique)
Wargear: Flak Armour, Bolt Pistol, Sword of Heironymo Sondar (Paragon Blade; see Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal), Camo Cloak, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Warlord Trait: Tactical Genius
Special Rules: Aura of Discipline, Independent Character, Fearless, Stealth, Adamantium Will, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Voice of Command, Senior Officer
My example will be anecdotal but in the Apoc game my Gaunt and his team was able to fight toe to toe with Chaos Abaddon the Despoiler inflicting 3 wounds on the character model before an allied Brother Captain Stern came into close combat and finished him off on the objective. I have more examples of exemplorary heroism by Gaunts ghost that but the book to shame :^).
Next example another Commisar with a decent table top build.
Commissar Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium![edit]
Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Composition
Ciaphas Cain 175 6 5 3 3 3 3 3 10 4+ Infantry (IC) 1 Lord Commissar
Unit Type: Infantry (unique) ((uses the Lord Commissar special rules along with those listed here.))
Wargear: Carapace armour, Laspistol, Cain's Chainsword, Refractor Field.
S AP
Cain's Chainsword +2 3
Special Rules:
Aura of Discipline, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, Night Vision, infiltrate
Hero of the Imperium!: Ciaphas Cain's heroic reputation (regardless of whether it is fraudulent or not) inspires those around him to follow his example. When accompanying a unit, Ciaphas Cain, and the unit he accompanies, are Stubborn. Additionally, all units within 12" of Cain (including one he accompanies) automatically pass tests to Regroup, and may move, shoot (or Run), and declare charges normally in the turn in which they Regroup.
Leader of Men: Even though he is a Commissar, Ciaphas Cain can never use Summary Execution, as this would mean one less body standing between him and danger. He may still execute a Psyker that failed Perils of the Warp test, as per the It's For Your Own Good rule.
Pintle Gunner: While Ciaphas Cain is embarked on a transport vehicle, that vehicle may fire one pintle weapon using Ciaphas Cain's Ballistic Skill, even if the weapon would otherwise fire at Ballistic Skill 1 (firing snap shots, for instance). The other weapons it is normally allowed to fire do so at their normal Ballistic Skill.
Survival Instincts: Commissar Cain's focus on personal safety, and experience in surviving dangerous situations allows him, and any unit he joins, to avoid danger. Cain and any unit he is attached to add 1 to their cover saves. This operates as, and stacks with, the stealth special rule. When he is embarked on a transport, the transport gets the same benefit. The transport may not gain 6+ cover save if it does not have one.
Defensive Fencing Technique: Ciaphas Cain developed his own unique fencing style, which revolves around defensive stances, evasion, counter-attack, and running away. Ciaphas Cain adds 4 to his WS when determining how difficult he is to hit in melee. Furthermore, anyone attempting a Glorious Intervention to get him out of a challenge automatically succeeds.
Run Like Frak! - Ciaphas Cain, and any unit he is attached to, has the Hit and Run special rule, except that they only roll 2d6 inches for the fleeing distance (he can only run so fast!) and always use Cain's Initiative +2 for the test (he's always ready to leg it).
Options: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may be accompanied by Gunner Jurgen (130 pts.)
Transport: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may take a Chimera or a Salamander as dedicated transport.
I guess you dont understand how important a rule like Stubborn is when taking an objective in the table top or the automatic regroup ability. His +1 to cover saves is literally game winng when attached to a Kasrkin squad or any high value unit like veterans or special weapons melta guns. It also accurately reflects his personal nature in the books. Its going to take me a while to bring up other examples because my sources on id4chan are limited and i dont have my pdfs of the rule books or my rule books with my so as for Zahariel and Gregor Im going to need to do more research if there has been a table top with them or an equivalent model. Still as for the Gregor example Krak grenades in the model game are use as close combat weapons against vehicles and have the ability to roll glancing and penetrating hits in some cases against vehicles of all types so i dont understand why or how that is an example of difference in power from fluff to table top Hmmm?
Other than that why would you bring up the Horus Heresy when we are 10k years past said events, I did say that if Relic is going to make Gabriel Primarch tier then maybe they could sell the acrobatics or if they used banned anti grav technology from the dark age of technology neither of those is the reason given and making Gabriel Primarch tiers of power would have to have a ++heresy redacted++ convincing reason.
AlternativeIV
++heresy redacted++ me I accidentally deleted my other post.
Ill start of with Ragnar, idk if you have participated in any tournament setting in the past 5 years but Space Wolves and Grey have been the cancer in the tourney scene throughout these past few years and Ragnar has been a major tumor on the fun. He dosen't have the same plot armor as he does in the books but he is litearlly impossible to kill if played properly. Its subjective and anecdotal but in all my Tourney scenes as guard I have thrown entire armored companies of Lemun Russes at him which is Ironic (Lemun Russ) not to get a single dent on the character. Now mine might be as anecdotal as yours but his statline in comparison to other models along with his abilites as I said accurately represent his power in the books barring his plot armor.
Ragnar is a powerful close-combat character that specializes in raping hordes of MEQs and GEQs, and he's not half bad against TEQs. He's also a personal favorite of this author, even if he is retardedly overpriced. Like all the Vlka Fenryka Ragnar has Acute Senses and ATSKNF, plus he has Counter Attack, Rage, and Independent Character. He also has Incredible Reflexes which allows him to reroll a single save in every assault phase (including your opponent's phase), Insane Bravado (must give and accept challenges where possible), and War Howl, which gives him and whatever unit he's attached to Furious Charge. His warlord trait, "Saga of the Warrior Born," which allows him to reroll all failed to-hit rolls in a challenge. He can also take two Fenrisian "Wolves" if he so chooses. As far as gear goes he has power armor (notably not runic armor), bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades, melta bombs, belt of russ (gives him an invuln), and a Str+1 AP3 chainsword with MC and rending. With Rage and furious charge, Ragnar is brutal on the charge. Anything without a 2+ armor or a good invuln is dead against Ragnar in a challenge and he stands a fair chance against TEQs due to his volume of attacks and rending, but at the same time his lack of a 2+ armor save means you should keep him away from lots of power weapons. Ideally speaking, stick him in a group of Blood Claws or Grey Hunters with a Wolf Standard. Charge something. That thing dies. Repeat.
Now for Eldrad
Eldrad is probably THE mainstay special character for Eldar armies. As we all know, the dude is rivaled as a (non-cheese) psychic powerhouse only by Ahzek Ahriman: he's got Mastery Level 4, meaning that if you go for Psychic Focus and roll on a single table, you've got access to every power on there except for one (something his Tzeentchian peer can only do with the Tzeentch discipline since he has to generate at least one power from it). He knows Sanctic Daemonology, Telepathy, Divination, and, of course, Runes of Fate. Whereas Ahriman is all about the volume when it comes to mind bullets, Eldrad is all about stability and reliability. He has the usual Farseer toys: Runes of the Farseer, which allows him to re-roll once per turn any number of dice on a psychic test or a Deny the Witch test, and a Ghosthelm, which allows him to spend a warp charge to nullify a wound caused by Perils of the Warp. So like any Farseer, he's already much less likely than other psykers to get turned inside out by daemons or to have his powers fizzle out, even when casting big WC3 stuff. Furthermore, his staff gives him a 33% chance to generate an extra warp charge every time he successfully casts a power; so not only does he have those 4-5 powers, but he's usually got the charges to use all of them.
Besides his psychic prowess, Eldrad also has some nifty wargear. Armour of the Last Runes gives him a 3++ Invulnerable save, which, coupled with his T4, allows him to take more punishment than the average Farseer, though his resilience still isn't anything to write home to Craftworld Ulthwé about. He's got a shuriken pistol (always good to have a Bladestorm weapon handy, and it's an extra close combat attack), a witchblade (Fleshbane! Always wounds on 2+), and let's not forget his all-important psyker disco stick, the Staff of Ulthamar, which is S-User (which doesn't really matter), AP3 AND has Fleshbane and Force. Anything he hits with it gets wounded on 2+, probably doesn't get an armor save, and dies instantly if you activate Force. Enough said. Oh, and his special rules are Fleet, Ancient Doom, Independent Character, Battle Focus, and Psyker. Naturally, his Warlord Trait is An Eye on Distant Events—because, you see, Eldrad is a ++heresy redacted++.
With the change in how Pskers function the most recent rule Eldrad is the ultimate cheese and a massive piece of ++heresy redacted++. In the 2 years since the most recent edition of the rules came out I havent played against another Eldar player from points 1000 up to 15k apoc games who havent run this pysker asshole.
AlternativeIV
Now to the IG examples.
Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Composition: 1 Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Unit Type: Infantry (unique)
Wargear: Flak Armour, Bolt Pistol, Sword of Heironymo Sondar (Paragon Blade; see Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal), Camo Cloak, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Warlord Trait: Tactical Genius
Special Rules: Aura of Discipline, Independent Character, Fearless, Stealth, Adamantium Will, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Voice of Command, Senior Officer
I'm not using your example but my own as it relates to Taniths first and Gaunts ghost. I used Gaunt alot in kill team games and as a special leader in a Apoc games which his Infiltrate ability and his fearless ability can be made use of to great effect. An anecdotal example of Gaunt living up to his name in the books which I have read is an apoc game I played where Gaunt was holding a contested objective with veterans squad. The contestor of the objective was one Abaddon the Despoiler, now I lost almost the entire veterans squad in the process but Gaunt survived and was able to do 3 wounds to Abaddon which I believe is a feat more heroic than any he did in the books. Albeit he was saved by one allied Brother Captain Stern who came into close combat to finish off Abaddon but i think that example is telling of a model being represented well in the model game as it relates to his fluff.
Next up is Commissar Ciaphas Cain,
1 Lord Commissar
Unit Type: Infantry (unique) ((uses the Lord Commissar special rules along with those listed here.))
Wargear: Carapace armour, Laspistol, Cain's Chainsword, Refractor Field.
S AP
Cain's Chainsword +2 3
Special Rules:
Aura of Discipline, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, Night Vision, infiltrate
Hero of the Imperium!: Ciaphas Cain's heroic reputation (regardless of whether it is fraudulent or not) inspires those around him to follow his example. When accompanying a unit, Ciaphas Cain, and the unit he accompanies, are Stubborn. Additionally, all units within 12" of Cain (including one he accompanies) automatically pass tests to Regroup, and may move, shoot (or Run), and declare charges normally in the turn in which they Regroup.
Leader of Men: Even though he is a Commissar, Ciaphas Cain can never use Summary Execution, as this would mean one less body standing between him and danger. He may still execute a Psyker that failed Perils of the Warp test, as per the It's For Your Own Good rule.
Pintle Gunner: While Ciaphas Cain is embarked on a transport vehicle, that vehicle may fire one pintle weapon using Ciaphas Cain's Ballistic Skill, even if the weapon would otherwise fire at Ballistic Skill 1 (firing snap shots, for instance). The other weapons it is normally allowed to fire do so at their normal Ballistic Skill.
Survival Instincts: Commissar Cain's focus on personal safety, and experience in surviving dangerous situations allows him, and any unit he joins, to avoid danger. Cain and any unit he is attached to add 1 to their cover saves. This operates as, and stacks with, the stealth special rule. When he is embarked on a transport, the transport gets the same benefit. The transport may not gain 6+ cover save if it does not have one.
Defensive Fencing Technique: Ciaphas Cain developed his own unique fencing style, which revolves around defensive stances, evasion, counter-attack, and running away. Ciaphas Cain adds 4 to his WS when determining how difficult he is to hit in melee. Furthermore, anyone attempting a Glorious Intervention to get him out of a challenge automatically succeeds.
Run Like Frak! - Ciaphas Cain, and any unit he is attached to, has the Hit and Run special rule, except that they only roll 2d6 inches for the fleeing distance (he can only run so fast!) and always use Cain's Initiative +2 for the test (he's always ready to leg it).
Options: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may be accompanied by Gunner Jurgen (130 pts.)
Transport: Commissar Ciaphas Cain may take a Chimera or a Salamander as dedicated transport.
How is his personality and achievements not accurately reflected in his model rules here rofl. His Leader of Men and Survival Instincts abilities are literally game winnning when used in conjunction with a squad of Kasrkins or Veterans while holding an objective or going for an assassination. Other than that i dont understand why using a power sword and Krak grenade are that unbelievable to break open a piece of armor when that is what they are designed to do? As for the other examples why would you bring up the Horus Heresy when its 10k years far removed and a vast majority of weapon systems used at the time are lost or out right banned for fear of corruption by the xenos menace. As I said before it would still be reasonable for outlawed anti grav tech to be used by Gabriel because Space Marine chapters namely Dark Angels and Blood Ravens use any and all means to achieve there goals but that isnt the reason given as to why Gabriel can jump like a ++heresy redacted++ Kangaroo. >inb4 muh doom hammer. I understand Relic needs to and can take massive liberties on an IP with pre established lore for gameplay reasons but if they are going to do so they better give an explanation other than "XD the 40k universe is so random who cares for internal logical consistency XD" because Gabriel literally has Primarch tier abilites and I dont mind if they do so just give a decent explanation for it rofl.
Orblivion
I would advise against posting full statlines and point values on here, GW is historically very tight about such things which is why no online 40k community allows such posts to remain.
That being said, you won't find a single 40k community that accepts rules as valid arguments in a lore debate. The rules don't account for Dante defeating Skarbrand in close combat, nor Kaldor Draigo defeating the daemon primarch Mortarion (inside the warp no less), nor Calgar defeating The Avatar of Khaine. All of those things have happened in the lore.
AlternativeIV
God I hate GW you are right about their stupid statline IP bullshti ty for reminding me, but as for the argument, "The Tabletop game itself isn't a realistic representation of the universe; that's why they supplement it with lore entries in the Codices and Black Library novels" which I was trying to prove as false by way of the rules which is the most common source of lore and fluff. As such I must ask which communities are you referring too because I mainly visit /tg/ when it comes to discussion about meta and fluff and we have discussed lore as it relates to gameplay and vice versa so I am just curious which communities you are referring to that have the authority to make statements where in rule sets have nothing to do with lore because with some units in 40k all we have is the fluff from the codexes and rules books?
Aren73
Personally I find the lore an acceptable way of modelling simple comparisons. A Guardsman has S3, a Space Marine S4, so the Marine is stronger. That kind of stuff. I'd say for simple comparisons like that the rules are valid, after all GW strives (I assume) to make them consistent with the lore.
Orblivion
It isn't that everything from the codices are invalid, it's just the actual statlines for characters and equipment that simply don't represent the lore. The example I gave of Dante defeating Skarbrand is actually found in the Blood Angels codex, the very same codex in which his statline illustrates how impossible it is for him defeat Skarbrand within the rules of the actual game. Lore found in a codex is not part of the rules, it is still lore.
As far as communities are concerned, the largest I visit are DakkaDakka and BolterAndChainsword. DakkaDakka even goes so far as to separate tabletop and lore discussions into different sub-forums. BolterAndChainsword does not, but you'll still catch a ton of flak if you throw a statline into a lore debate.
McNash
Theories? It's just animation design choices, People agree they made the wrong choice, and no matter how Relic try to cover it with some background material, it looks bad, like with the tabletop game, sometimes the designers simply make a bad choices, just look at the Taurox (which of course Relic is going to bring it, aren't you Relic?), the Dreadknight (again, another one I suspect Relic wants to add to the game) and the Lord of Skulls (yep, I suspect this one too is high in their to-do-list).
The funny thing is that sometimes even Games Workshop themselves recognize they made a terrible mistake, hence why they had to elaborate and downgrade Kaldor's fluff tone down and put their top writers in charge of the Ultramarines background, to the point where they got Guilliman recognizing the Codex is flawed and open to interpretation, or create the Kytan Daemon Engine kit to fix the Lord of Skulls.
But then again, sometimes some people think loving and caring about a franchise is about agreeing with everything the developers and designers do.
Dreamlicker
Nah, it's just the developers being a bit too liberal with animation. The Eldar can stick to these anime acrobatics, but it's completely out of place for a Space Marine.
Wardonno
All of that is very valid, however, I would say that the real reason people are pissed of is not because it breaks the lore, but rather that it breaks the main theme of space marine. When creating factions within any medium it is vital that they are unique and distinguishable. In terms of table top and video games, this means injecting each faction with particular themes and attribute that define them. It is the goal of an RTS game (also table top) to try to represent different aspect of the lore rather than being faithful, for example lore wise it makes no sense how space marine can lose an entire chapter within some of the campaign mission. The compromise is that space marine have smaller squad sizes and that is how the game represent the fact that spaces marines are meant to be a powerful but small in number.
There are several problem with the Gabriel jumping animation that do not come from a lore perspective:
1. The backflip is unnecessary. Such an animation would be fine for the Orks or Eldar heroes since it fits the tone of those faction.
2. Such an animation overlaps with other factions theme
3. Assault Marines require jump pack in order to "Jump", therefore, Gabriel should be using some form of technology in order to accomplish this action for example teleporter.
Also the things you mention were written down in books, and are not a good comparison to the current situation considering this is a visual medium. Gabriel Angelos jumping might not be as over the top when written down.
That being said I am actually fine with the jumping ability, but remove the backflip. The best improve would be, as mention ages ago, to replace it would a short range teleport above the enemy. That would fit with Gabriel Angelos being portrayed as a strategist since by using gravity to his advantage.
Gorb
And my repeated point, which I wish people would simply understand, is that is simply your opinion of what you find acceptable. Other people can and will have different thresholds.
Relic can't cater to everybody's individual limits in this manner, and of course being human they have opinions on the lore of their own. Which is why we get the game as it is, and not the game if some other group of 40k fans was making it (and Relic are / have a lot of 40k fans, even to this day).
@AlternativeIV
They're still not able to do things that they do in the lore. The lore allows these characters to perform feats that their Tabletop rules say they can't.
It's as simple as that, really.
And some of them flat-out don't exist in Tabletop!
Mr_Ruin
I already speculated that Gabe is so big cause he was stung by space bees. Whenever I see that picture in which his head is larger that regular SM's helmeted one that is one of the possibilities I can think of. Or he is an Ork in disquise and he is so good that he started growing cause of it. How did Ravens not notice? Or they did and though ok, who cares? Similar to the 1d4chan story of Blood Ravens stealing Bjorn the Fell Handed ...
And flying through the air? Well, Tartaros armour is the most mobile Termi armour and maybe it is a low gravity planet, but then why are not all SM's kung-fu fighting? And while there are crazy abilities in DoW2 most are very high lvl ones and producers didn't know how to up the ante from past abilities (heroes have 20 or more abilities in campaigns), but there is no need to continue with that if they have 2 or 3 abilities each.
Mr_Ruin
And our repeated point is we really dislike that animation. Like REALLY DISLIKE it. They don't have to agree with that. But we can still put it here as many times as necessary to get that particular point through.
Gorb
That's fine, but I wasn't replying to your concerns. I mean, open forum, but you must understand if I'm talking to someone else, even in general terms, I'm not talking to you at the same time
People can have as many problems with as many aspects of the game as they want.
But if you start to phrase it in a way that suggests Relic needs to something because something is definitively wrong, then we have an issue that needs correcting. Because there are very few things that are definitively wrong when it comes to a reader's intepretation of a fantasy universe.
I'd love to debate the actual fantasy universe itself til the end of time. I still love 40k, even if I don't have time to play the physical game. But people are too concerned with having the right opinions, when in fact everyone's opinion is "right". Or valid, to use a better word.
Aren73
@Gorb - A lot of people want to be validated probably. Interesting to hear though what percentage of the community do you think dislikes the animation and would prefer a different one?
Mr_Ruin
We already talked about that a long time ago. If I am not mistaken Gorb's main idea is even if we did that it would still be thoughts of this forum community, not everyone who will ever play DoW3. Therefore not official or something. I disagree partly with that opinion, but it is still a valid opinion.
Aren73
Sure, what I'm getting at is that the forum community and the people following this game on Youtube are the ones most likely to play. We are the ones most likely to be the DoW3 gaming community and as such our opinions should be at the very least considered. I also think that there is a large percentage of the community, about 40-50% who dislike (even if just a tiny bit) the animation. I then think a further 55-45% don't care and another 5% like the animation (animation purely not the gamplay options it offers). So while the ones who dislike it are in the minority (40%) they are in the vast majority of those who like it.
Of course my numbers may be wrong, the people who dislike it might be just an extremely vocal tiny minority but what I can say is that those who dislike it are definitely in majority of those who like it.
However, usually with these things they scale up so what you see here on the forums is probably more or less represented by most of the future fans who already know the 40k universe or DoW games previously.
Gorb
It's an interesting topic, but not one I feel would benefit from me walloftexting a thread about Angelos' acrobatic prowess
I've been around this specific community for a very long time, and there are a lot of recurring posters. I use that to support my general points (insofar as I make general points) and people can absolutely come up with different percentages, or different arguments. But that's where I come from.
All I want is for people to give Relic's opinions and arguments the validity they give to their own, because this is one of the key challenges games designers face on a daily basis (entertaining and reconciling opposing opinions on something that they have a hand in creating).
Mr_Ruin
You are preaching to the choir. I wanted to make that vote some time ago. I think percentage of ppl disliking it is even higher. But I am just repeating what Gorb told me so he doesn't have to wall of text us. Again. Or lock the thread. Again.
Gorb
I never lock threads I'm involved in, unless it's absolutely necessary and there's no-one else around.
C'mon. For someone who's known me for so long, there's no need for that kind of cheap attack. I mark all my moderator posts as moderator posts these days, too
Mr_Ruin
I am not attacking, I am just trying to say that ''let's make a vote'' won't work cause I know what I was told the last time I tried.
Gorb
Well, it's a bit silly (also I can't create polls, sorry). It doesn't prove much, because the posts you are all already making Relic are already reading!
And recently we've seen direct evidence of that. So I feel pretty comfortable in maintaining my opinion, there
Mr_Ruin
Actually saw some evidence of them reading, about outlines and things like that. Who knows, maybe they also stop giving growing pills to Gabe as well. And take him off ballet classes.
Misery
Even if he could leap off the ground, how does he land without damage?
Terminator armor isn't exactly made for the impact of falling large distances, and even if it was some special suit, the weight of the accelerated mass of the universes biggest space marine wearing giant armor impacting the ground would probably lodge his feet into it.
Maybe they should make him take 1/3rd of his health damage every time the silly thing is used with a 50% chance to be immobilized?
This is Relic though, who also released a book that said the Dark Eldar worshiped Slaanesh about DoW. So their statements about not caring about authenticity aren't exactly new.
Also randomly, showing people who are fans of universe the video of the leaping terminator is kind of fun. Every single one of them have gone from "oh wow there's a new DoW?" to saying rude words about it. I know this isn't "valid" until I ask every person on the planet, but it's kind of telling of the general opinion.
Auric
I find it more amusing how fickle 'fans' can be. Relic have been playing fast and loose with the lore for the purposes of creating the game they want to create for ages. From marines that teleport in to reinforce their squad in the middle of a battle (WITHOUT terminator armour? HERESY) to captain's that can cause the ground to rupture in a big way when they swing their sword particularly hard. Hell, how about the fact that marines are building bases AT ALL? What about Eldar tanks being the slowest in DOW2?
It's all put in to try and create a game that works and that people find enjoyable. For all their flaws, I haven't had a Dawn of War game that I didn't enjoy (yes, even Soulstorm). Maybe people should just relax on this whole 'disregard for the lore' and realise it has been going on for a long time, and for a good reason.
Ventulus
I was honestly thinking the exact same thing. Since the prophecy of war teaser I've seen so much less hate for the game. Everybody is all aboard the hypetrukk now. Which is kinda funny because there was absolutely no gameplay at all.
Nothing against the game, but it just shows the sad state of the industry. Hype everything all the time. Pre-order super-exclusive-ultra edition with a crossbow.
Gorb
Ragnar Blackmane and his pack dropped hundreds of metres into a Space Hulk with no obvious damage suffered. In regular Power Armour.
Terminator Armour was made so that a Titan can stand on it, and the wearer survive (this is one of the earliest recorded pieces of rulebook lore on Terminator Armour, too). I'm not sure you can make assumptions on "what it was made for".
The book I think you're referring to must've been a DoW official novel kind of thing? Which wasn't written by anyone at Relic, and published by Black Library.
Unless someone at Relic did write a novel and I'm not aware of it!
Misery
It's not the armor that's the cause for concern but the guy in it. If you're in a thick metal box dropped from a high height, the metal box will probably survive unscathed, but you'll still feel the full force of the landing and probably not, even normal assault marines with jump packs use them to slow the decent. A Space Hulk is in space, and that's from a novel anyway.
If they didn't even bother to read the promotional novel series that came with their game to check it for nonsense, it doesn't really help to illustrate they care about authenticity does it? Thats not even an isolated case, we've gone from those novels in DoW and the basically nonsensically important Blood Raven's story to khorne sorcerers in DoW II. The point is no one should be surprised by Relic saying they don't care about the universe it's set in or authenticity as it's been that way basically since the start.
There's degrees to that though. On one side there's minor things like the 3 man tactical squads that aren't exactly typical (though might happen) but are understandable from a gameplay perspective. Some other things they're doing and done though don't really add anything to the experience and just end up diluting the setting down for no benefit.
If they really don't care about making it an "authentic" experience then they might as well just make their own game in their own universe. That way they can do whatever with, like Blizzard did for different reasons where they can have free reign and not put off people.