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Make DoW3 Great Again
vindicarex
I want to discuss on how to make DoW3 a successful multiplayer title to achieve greater esports scene than Company of Heroes. At its core, this requires popularity - people playing and watching the game. I want to talk about this goal by reflecting on the some of the history and features of Dawn of War 1 and 2.
The real problems with DoW2 were the rushed release (buggy game, lacking UI/multiplayer features), the terrible, god-forsaken Games For Windows (GFWL) Live systems combined with Steam, and a lengthy balancing span for a myriad of reasons (remember when T2 was 45 power in DoW2? Or stikkbombas 1-shotting genfarms).
The core mechanics of both DoW1 and DoW2 were good, it was just the lack of polishing the game needed to sustain a healthy multiplayer scene.
To my knowledge they both sold very well - clearly a lot of people buy them for aspects other than multiplayer, like campaign or skirmish with friends.
I really like where DoW3 is going with it's mechanics - back to the core of DoW1 but with advanced abilities and units that can execute mass carnage (the core of DoW2) - a good approach. People hate on the game for it's art design - as if that spoke at all about gameplay - and label it a "MOBA piece of garbage" because they have hero units (hello? DoW1 had the same thing). It looks more like a classic RTS. While it lack lack features like dynamic cover or lot's of abilities, I'd argue these "features" added more problems than they were worth (just look at the host of potentially game-breaking pathing problems in DoW2's history). The point being that more is not always best. A game with solid core gameplay can be good and reduces the complexity of balancing and coding a game for future updates.
What I'm more concerned about it are things like how the economy works, the pacing of the game. DoW1 had a very funky economy compared to DoW2. In DoW1, your economy grew at a powerful rate depending on how much you invest in building listening posts, possibly evening quadrupling income in a few minutes. It goes from a bare-bones income and a very low-resource game to an almost controllable income level where you can barely spend money faster than you get it. This income system has strong implications for the balance of the game and a demanding skillcurve with a punishing game pace.
- in 1v1, you can essentially lose in the first few minutes if you have a wrong cap order or a bad build order. Winning here meant controlling points and Listening Posts at all costs, losing some battles to this cause can work.
- This is in drastic contrast to DoW2: while it was possible to gain a tech advantage through controlling power nodes, your requisition income was more or less the same as your opponent, tied in with an upkeep system (Similar to coh2, a good mechanic I think). So it was usually pretty easy to build an army comparable to the enemy - the game here was to win the battles, not spam LPs to gain an insurmountable eco lead. Losing battles meant losing the game.
As such, I'm hoping they will add the economic pacing of DoW2 with the squad mechanic of DoW1. it should positively influence game pacing where you don't have the absurd games in DoW1 where you just overwatch units and send them out due to a massive float of resources.
I like the basic squad mechanics that I've seen. Is it exactly what I wanted? No - but no 40k game can ever be that. 40k is too detailed and comes with so much baggage that it makes it hard to conform to fans' notions of a great 40k game.
What DoW3 really needs is good multiplayer functionality (connectivity, matchmaking, leaderboards, lobbies) and a polished gameplay (as little bugs that affect a game's outcome in multiplayer as possible). I believe neglecting these goals makes your core base of players feel frustrated over these issues more than balance or lack of game modes or something. Having a good multiplayer system in place early on will keep players around. Good for both the community, potential esports, and Relic.
I'm hoping we'll get DLC race packs early on and frequently, like Total War: Warahmmer. It could be a prime money maker for Relic - selling Race DLC packs for $10-$20 bucks a pop to a large player base like DoW3 will have at launch. Even CoH2 had a dedicated base large enough to receive ample DLC's (Even if some people don't like the "p2win" content). I for one don't mind this new system - it allows devs to work on more content at a fast rate than we would normally get with "classic" expansion packs. And no one forces you to buy it. Although I can see how in some cases it can be a cheap money grab. I for one would be glad to throw some more money at Relic for race packs in DoW3.
-After IG and Chaos, add Dark Eldar, Relic! Please!
Comments
PhilthyPhilPhD
Pretty much agree with everything here, mirrors my sentiments exactly (including the DLC part, I really hope to see Tau personally). I think the DoW1 economy is a very interesting point and I'm genuinely interested in seeing which way it leans for multiplayer, though it feels a little like they might be going the DoW1 route for DoW3.
On a slightly unrelated note I think you should consider putting the type of stuff you talked about in your second last paragraph regarding lobbies etc as well as questions about what kind of economy system they're going to be using in my PC Gamer Weekender thread as they are important things I'd like to see them discuss when they start talking about multiplayer but I'm too lazy to take it and put it in that thread. Thanks for bringing up these points, a pleasant surprise to read after seeing the thread title
Silk
Really interesting read.
I don't have time the to comment everything right now, but I'd like to add something about this:
I may be wrong but I think it could be more difficult and lenghty to add factions in DoW III than in TW:WH. There seem to be lots a units, elite units, and very specific mechanisms behind every of the DoW III faction - and if you add something that big, too quickly, you may destroy the balance of the game.
Quick food-for-thoughts.
g0ll0
Esports is important but not make it core of the game, thats why sc2 failed, sc2 was extremelly focused in competitive, and casuals or semi competitive players like me left the game however DOW needs replays system and observer mode it will keep the community alive... I recall playing dow2 with no obs mode at launch and a lot of people stopped playing only for that reason.. there are 3 types or player, casuals, semi competitive ( play solo vs ai , ranked and campaign ) and competitive ( 24/7) Relic should aim all of them if they want to succeed.
FJGC
I would argue that including The Last Stand and also mod tools from the start would be a great community booster as well. I hope Relic had the resources for these other two options, but even if they don't include them and "just" include what you talked about would be a great start.
WarbossGogangash
I just want a nice map editor.
FearTheReaper
WE NEED TO BUILD A WALL
Renner
Right, as Slik said, factions from Relic games were never really like in TW series. It takes quite a lot of effort and time to design them and their units, not just to change the skin, or add a couple of unique units. Hardly we'll see DLCs spawning so often, it should take at least from 6 months up to one year per faction expansion/DLC, like in CoH2.
Speaking of which, CoH2 got a lot of great features in the meantime. Starting from the new server arch that replaced that miscreant P2P plaguing their games since forever, and the great observer mode that you can also watch live with groups. I think in that aspect DoW3 should be covered.
And as some others said, I understand the competitive community and their needs, but its not everything in the number of clicks per second. Clashing with armies in Relic games, troops screaming, bullets and grenades flying everywhere, arty shaking the ground, its a feeling like no other. I hope they'll keep some of that mojo.
McNash
Just tuning down the Space Marines animations and the overall game visual effects would be a great start, as Arch Warhammer pointed out, you can't go saying you made the graphics simpler in the name of readability and then making even an ork boy melee attack flash and glow.
Gorb
Why not? Being able to recognise attack cycles is an important part in determining combat visuals. Not being able to see every speck of dirt on an Astartes' battle plate doesn't exactly have a gameplay objective (or negative), so these two points can exist in tandem, supporting the same goal.
Aren73
In which case maybe tone down the animations so that the animations with bright light flashes are reserved for those attacks which are energy based (most of the Eldar ranged weapons, plasma weapons etc) and explosions? I really don't want to see that level of light on metal based close combat weapons like chainswords (which should only have some sparks) or choppas (only sparks or some really toned down animations). That way you can differentiate between attacks even better and you don't have as many flashy animations clogging up the screen.
Really giving the player the option of how flashy the animations are would be ideal. I fully realise this is difficult (although I doubt impossible) but would be a great asset to a game I think despite some minor gripes is shaping up well.
Gorb
Relic have already said they're constantly tweaking the intensity of the effects and bearing community feedback in mind. That's the last they said on this specific matter, so while people have every right to reserve judgement, the developers have recognised it as an active concern.
Ventulus
There will always be options for you to tune the visual effects to your liking. Its one of the many benefits of being a PC gamer, options menus.
I know plenty of Starcraft players who do this, and all of the pros pretty much play on minimal settings for maximum clarity.
Mr_Ruin
And you will end up with rushed out updates which will add broken races so people buy them and then they will have to pass through several iterations and balance patches etc. to even make the game playable again.
That happened with British in CoH2 where they are undefeated in King of the Hill matches. If someone chooses them he already has half a victory. Also when Chaos came to DoW2 at the beginning no one could defeat them. Entire armies were breaking before Great Unclean One, Sorcerer could take your unit and then eat it, etc.
Better to wait and get something balanced than to get a mess which will break any semblance of balance. If something off puts people it is a thinly veiled money grab.