I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting regarding this game mode and being very RTS elitist about it. Why is DOW3 having MOBA influences a bad thing? People are writing off a huge genre of games, one that is probably more popular and more played than RTSs these days, just because...? Because what? Because YOU personally don't like them? Because they are popular? I don't know.
DOW3 is still VERY much an RTS. Yes, it has MOBA influences, such as
1. Towers (ie objectives)
2. Obvious "lanes"
That is where the similarities end for me. You still control multiple units/squads. Even thought the maps are small, there is still an equal emphasis on strategy and tactics, similar to DOW1.
In my opinion, this game mode is the best of both worlds. You are tacking the strategy and gameplay similar to DOW1 and mixing it with physical objectives etc. For me, this increases the strategic and tactical depth that will be needed, and on the whole, makes the game SO much more interesting than "capture and hold these points" or "kill everything".
I am actually relieved Relic have tried to deliver something new and relatively original. I find the footage of this game mode quite refreshing.
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting regarding this game mode and being very RTS elitist about it. Why is DOW3 having MOBA influences a bad thing? People are writing off a huge genre of games, one that is probably more popular and more played than RTSs these days, just because...? Because what? Because YOU personally don't like them? Because they are popular? I don't know.
DOW3 is still VERY much an RTS. Yes, it has MOBA influences, such as
1. Destructible Towers (ie objectives)
2. Obvious "lanes"
That is where the similarities end for me. You still control multiple units/squads. Even thought the maps are small, there is still an equal emphasis on strategy and tactics, similar to DOW1.
In my opinion, this game mode is the best of both worlds. You are taking the strategy and gameplay similar to DOW1 and mixing it with physical objectives etc. For me, this increases the strategic and tactical depth that will be needed, and on the whole, makes the game SO much more interesting than "capture and hold these points" or "kill everything".
I am actually relieved Relic have tried to deliver something new and relatively original. I find the footage of this game mode quite refreshing.
The power core mode sounds hardly different from annihilation, it just skips mopping up the remains of your opponent. If your opponent is stomping around your base and you can't retaliate, you lost. Hiding farms shouldn't help at that point.
Relic has had turrets protecting the bases too since CoH 1 without much complaint as far as I can recall. Rarely were base attacks a thing though, VP's were the way to go. Even with the removal of VP's, it seems that the focus of the game is still on map control, so I'm pleased with that.
Warhammer 40k has always felt like a setting where a single character can be the deciding factor of planet wide war, so the increased emphasis on heroes seems only fitting, as they have been more centric with every DoW so far.
@Ellie said:
god its adorable to see how people think that this game isn't an rts just because it has a 'destroy these structures' mode.
That wouldnt be too bothersome, but the thing is, this is the main and only mode we are getting at release.
Even a starcraft clone would have been understandeable, but this? Its a big "screw you" to the people who liked their previous games but dislike the simplistic and boring gameplay of mobas. Thats the word, the videos published today look BORING and UGLY
And sega being the producer, we can expect tons of moneygrab dlcs.
@FusionClock said:
The power core mode sounds hardly different from annihilation, it just skips mopping up the remains of your opponent. If your opponent is stomping around your base and you can't retaliate, you lost. Hiding farms shouldn't help at that point.
Relic has had turrets protecting the bases too since CoH 1 without much complaint as far as I can recall. Rarely were base attacks a thing though, VP's were the way to go. Even with the removal of VP's, it seems that the focus of the game is still on map control, so I'm pleased with that.
Warhammer 40k has always felt like a setting where a single character can be the deciding factor of planet wide war, so the increased emphasis on heroes seems only fitting, as they have been more centric with every DoW so far.
I agree.
I think a lot off this criticism is very reactionary. When you get down to it, DoW3 is actually very similar to DoW1 and DoW2, but now taken in the direction of different objectives akin to MOBAs. Resources are still primarily gained through the map, though interestingly tied to an income that progresses as the game continues (like DoW2/CoH - a base income), though only a bit. So there's a good mix of gaining economical advantage through map control, but not one that is overwhelming (unless, of course, you dominate the opponent and take all the points).
I think there's a lot of unforseen strategies waiting to be discovered here. Only time will tell as more and more people gain access to the beta, and later release, and develop high tier play.
The dev's mentioned that they want to make a super solid game, and then see if the community will rally behind it to make it an esports. I agree with this approach as long as they realize this heavily involves careful balancing sourced from relevant feedback. My personal hope is that they will listen to the 1v1, and particularly high skilled players, to help inform this balance process. But in the meantime, they seem to have nailed the basic gameplay and functionality in DoW3's essence engine.
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
@Nautiloidor said:
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting prematurely judging regarding this game mode every game and idea they aren't totally familiar with and being very RTS elitist just boring and wanting the Xth Iteration of a previous game with updated graphixx which they then can rant about for not being innovative and original it.
@Katitof said:
I'm disappointed there is no classic VP control game mode, but I'll wait to play the new one before final judgement will be made from me.
This power core mode is just annihilation with moba fluff, its not bad starter, but what made Relic RTS for me was the objective focus.
Yeah, thinking about it, it's really not so different from annihilation. If you're in the opponents base crushing their power core, you would have basically won an annihilation victory anyway. Just have less buildings to destroy.
I think where it differs from annihilation has more to do with the shield generators, turrets, and lanes. The base is less vulnerable than in typical annihilation. You aren't going to win by an early rush alone in this set up. For some, that's a positive. Others, a negative. Personally, I've never much enjoyed rushing or being rushed, so it's a positive.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
vDoW had the following game modes:
Annihilate
Assassinate (very MOBA-like, to be hoenst)
Destroy HQ
Economic Victory
Control Area
Take and Hold, and
Sudden Death
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
@Nautiloidor said:
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting prematurely judging regarding this game mode every game and idea they aren't totally familiar with and being very RTS elitist just boring and wanting the Xth Iteration of a previous game with updated graphixx which they then can rant about for not being innovative and original it.
DOW3 is still VERY much an RTS.
I fixed some typos in your post.
I was trying to sound a bit more neutral than that!
@Mr_Ruin said:
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
vDoW had the following game modes:
Annihilate
Assassinate (very MOBA-like, to be hoenst)
Destroy HQ
Economic Victory
Control Area
Take and Hold, and
Sudden Death
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
And was built on 3 lanes on which are turrets to slow you down. When you enter inside the base at the end there is a core you need to destroy. You do it with a hero followed by smaller units.
Only difference is you don't have inventory for hero but build a few buildings and build your own creeps.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
vDoW had the following game modes:
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
Dont forget about control. Creeps are uncontrollable in MOBAs. With only a few exceptions, you can only control one unit in MOBAs.
@Nautiloidor said:
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting prematurely judging regarding this game mode every game and idea they aren't totally familiar with and being very RTS elitist just boring and wanting the Xth Iteration of a previous game with updated graphixx which they then can rant about for not being innovative and original it.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
vDoW had the following game modes:
Annihilate
Assassinate (very MOBA-like, to be hoenst)
Destroy HQ
Economic Victory
Control Area
Take and Hold, and
Sudden Death
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
And was built on 3 lanes on which are turrets to slow you down. When you enter inside the base at the end there is a core you need to destroy. You do it with a hero followed by smaller units.
Only difference is you don't have inventory for hero but build a few buildings and build your own creeps.
If you have evidence that all (or even most of the) maps have pre-defined "lanes" that cannot be bypassed or altered at all, it would be good to discuss that instead of exclaiming that it's a MOBA and expecting the truism to hold.
The only similarity is the tower structure, and even then there is only one set of those here in DoW III. There aren't several layers, there aren't predefined melee and ranged barracks that control (uncontrollable) creep spawns, and your core base structure isn't defended by yet another set of turret-towers. There isn't a "spawn" area protected by a hyperbeam of flaming doom, and the only cooldowns exist on unit abilities, there are no restrictions on the units you can build barring tech levels and resources. Typical for an RTS.
So if creeps were controllable in a moba would that make it an rts by your logic mr_ruin?
Idk, i haven't played it but it sounds like a good way of stopping the games being over too early, and possibly allowing for better comeback mechanics.
I want to try it to say for sure, but even with it in, there's no reason at all we couldn't end up with a VP type game too a few weeks/months down the line.
If the game play is fun and the unit control smooth and rewarding, you can build whatever game objectives you want from it.
@Mr_Ruin said:
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
vDoW had the following game modes:
Annihilate
Assassinate (very MOBA-like, to be hoenst)
Destroy HQ
Economic Victory
Control Area
Take and Hold, and
Sudden Death
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
And was built on 3 lanes on which are turrets to slow you down.
Fair enough
When you enter inside the base at the end there is a core you need to destroy.
Destroy the base/ kill commander is a game mode present in many RTSs.
You do it with a hero followed by smaller units.
This is present in many RTSs.
Only difference is you don't have inventory for hero but build a few buildings and build your own creeps.
Pretty crucial differences. Including the fact you control the "creeps". Creeps is also a bad word here as line units in DOW play a hugely bigger part in the game than creeps do in MOBAs.
EDIT: Just tried to repost it and a message flashed saying "post will the visible when approved" or something like that...
@Gorb said:
Entirely possible you might have tripped the spam filter . . . somehow. Will forward the issue.
I've had this too several times but was unable to reproduce it. It seems it usually happens when i'm trying to edit my post several times in a short amount of time.
EDIT: Just tried to repost it and a message flashed saying "post will the visible when approved" or something like that...
@Gorb said:
Entirely possible you might have tripped the spam filter . . . somehow. Will forward the issue.
I've had this too several times but was unable to reproduce it. It seems it usually happens when i'm trying to edit my post several times in a short amount of time.
Ah, that seems likely, I'll take more care in future, thanks!
Anyway, my comment said pretty much what Gorb and Cursed said!
@Cursed said:
So if creeps were controllable in a moba would that make it an rts by your logic mr_ruin?
Idk, i haven't played it but it sounds like a good way of stopping the games being over too early, and possibly allowing for better comeback mechanics.
I want to try it to say for sure, but even with it in, there's no reason at all we couldn't end up with a VP type game too a few weeks/months down the line.
If the game play is fun and the unit control smooth and rewarding, you can build whatever game objectives you want from it.
About comeback mechanics. It seems that this is the main reason for the towers in mobas so it would be fair to assume that it is also why Relic decided to make a similar mode in dow3.
I'm not sure it'll work all that well in this aspect though, and definitely will be worse than victory points. Like if you lost a lot of units they don't just resurrect near the fontain in a minute, they'll stay dead. So its not like that additional minute of time that these turrets give would matter all that much. Also the enemy will probably immediately capitalise on this and destroy a few towers\generators(and also will get bonus resources), and maybe even the power core. Whereas in VP game the winning player couldn't do this (unless he killed like the whole army and attacked the base directly) because he still needed VP's to tick.
Hmm I can get behind there only being one game mode, but what has me going eh is the maps.
Looking at the 3 or 4 maps for multiplayer we have seen they all look very tight and restrictive. I don't see how eldar are meant to be able to use the hit and run tactics that we have been told about in regards to their webway gates. Just seems to easy for the enemy to lock down there side of the map. Skimmers should still have a fun time with the hugely cut up maps.
Would be cool to see a city map where each player starts in opposite corners say and the point is entered out from the edge of the map to allow for more attack paths then you can have the power cores "behind" the turrets so you can either attack them head on or flank past them to their power source. This would make for a lot more options than it looks like we currently have where its attack both the base and the ancient. This would give all the armies more option and I feel open the game right up.
The reduction in the number of control points is a little annoying as well but there does still appear to be enough so that we have the potential to be fighting across the whole map at once.
The idea that they are going to patch in new maps and modes inside of weeks is silly, relic have shown on every game they have released they have been slow to release new anything that the community has asked for. CoH2 is a perfect example of this took them weeks alone to get a us new maps and what well over 6 months to release a map editor (cant remember the exact time). With the way they have built the game around this mode it appears just stripping out the buildings will destroy the games economy if those buildings generate income for you.
@Cursed said:
So if creeps were controllable in a moba would that make it an rts by your logic mr_ruin?
Idk, i haven't played it but it sounds like a good way of stopping the games being over too early, and possibly allowing for better comeback mechanics.
I want to try it to say for sure, but even with it in, there's no reason at all we couldn't end up with a VP type game too a few weeks/months down the line.
If the game play is fun and the unit control smooth and rewarding, you can build whatever game objectives you want from it.
Yes. In a sense it would be a RTS if you had units to control.
Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me if something looks like a duck it usually is a duck, and this looks like a moba to me. I am not using it in a pejorative term, there is a lot of people who love moba's, I am not one of them but ok. Therefore there will probably people who like this way of playing, but I believe I am not among them.
What irks me that there was no mention about this mode of play until it was shown in beta. Which is quite strange.
@Cursed said:
So if creeps were controllable in a moba would that make it an rts by your logic mr_ruin?
Idk, i haven't played it but it sounds like a good way of stopping the games being over too early, and possibly allowing for better comeback mechanics.
I want to try it to say for sure, but even with it in, there's no reason at all we couldn't end up with a VP type game too a few weeks/months down the line.
If the game play is fun and the unit control smooth and rewarding, you can build whatever game objectives you want from it.
Yes. In a sense it would be a RTS if you had units to control.
Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me if something looks like a duck it usually is a duck, and this looks like a moba to me. I am not using it in a pejorative term, there is a lot of people who love moba's, I am not one of them but ok. Therefore there will probably people who like this way of playing, but I believe I am not among them.
What irks me that there was no mention about this mode of play until it was shown in beta. Which is quite strange.
Hmm it erks me as well they have held this back for so long as well.
It's almost like they knew the general community would at best have a mixed response to this.
This is being used like VPs in a sense, because they're basically trying to use it as another pacing mechanic. I think this is mostly to guarantee that games aren't A. actually over at the 5 minute mark. and B. Essentially over at the 5 minute mark, while the players are stuck playing for another 20 minutes because that's how long it will take to end a match. Their goal seems to be to allow a comeback mechanic that makes early game fights less punishing and more frequent. Likewise they seem to be aiming at escalating the resource income in such a way that players would essentially have to purposefully not fight in order for a game to go on past a certain point. If you have resources you're going to have units, and if you have units you're going to fight. Whereas in VPs you could have a stalemate over the middle flag and it could stay decapped for a while and thus no one makes progress, this is a matter of taking hitpoints off buildings, if you're attacking them you're making progress.
Likewise if you're attacking these buildings and they can't be repaired you're pushing yourself closer to victory than you would in annihilate. In annihilation you could potentially play a game of hide the building or something equally annoying. Also players could have a huge clash destroy some of each others buildings and then rebuild and repeat ad infinitum. These buildings instead have finite hitpoints. If you make a big push and nearly destroy it, you're not going to go back and find that it's full repaired. Thus you know you're one more push or clever trick away from finishing the game. Whereas in VPs or Annihilation this doesn't necessarily mean the game is that much closer to ending.
This is Relic's way of pacing out game length. This also gives them more control of balance and gameflow since they can tweak these aspects of the buildings or resource flow to a more fun level based on player feedback. The only real question is how much this will constrain the meta, but assuming there's lots of unit and doctrine/ability diversity this can be what keeps the game interesting. I'm optimistic.
That said, I still think Relic should include an Annihilation mode with the following caveats. 1. This is not a matchmaking mode, if you want to use matchmaking you need to search power core. 2. It's in customs only. 3. They don't actually bother making any other balance tweaks to units or resources. 4. The only change to the map is removing the power cores and related buildings from the map.
Assuming people are satisfied with that and understand that the game is not balanced with Annihilation in mind, I don't see why Relic shouldn't include that for people who just want to play that mode in their custom games.
Allowing comebacks is fine. Not punishing a player too hard for an early loss is fine.
But if the game is artificially extended to last 20 minutes more if one player is way superior to the other, it's not fine. I hope it's not the case.
I like the mode, but it definitely can be ropey in 1v1. it's very fun for hectic 3v3 games but the lack of rush potential is daunting. I do hope the game will ship with a VP mode or include it soon after launch.
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Comments
Nautiloidor
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting regarding this game mode and being very RTS elitist about it. Why is DOW3 having MOBA influences a bad thing? People are writing off a huge genre of games, one that is probably more popular and more played than RTSs these days, just because...? Because what? Because YOU personally don't like them? Because they are popular? I don't know.
DOW3 is still VERY much an RTS. Yes, it has MOBA influences, such as
1. Towers (ie objectives)
2. Obvious "lanes"
That is where the similarities end for me. You still control multiple units/squads. Even thought the maps are small, there is still an equal emphasis on strategy and tactics, similar to DOW1.
In my opinion, this game mode is the best of both worlds. You are tacking the strategy and gameplay similar to DOW1 and mixing it with physical objectives etc. For me, this increases the strategic and tactical depth that will be needed, and on the whole, makes the game SO much more interesting than "capture and hold these points" or "kill everything".
I am actually relieved Relic have tried to deliver something new and relatively original. I find the footage of this game mode quite refreshing.
Nautiloidor
I have to agree with Gorb on this one. They wouldn't have made this decision for no reason.
I think people are really overreacting regarding this game mode and being very RTS elitist about it. Why is DOW3 having MOBA influences a bad thing? People are writing off a huge genre of games, one that is probably more popular and more played than RTSs these days, just because...? Because what? Because YOU personally don't like them? Because they are popular? I don't know.
DOW3 is still VERY much an RTS. Yes, it has MOBA influences, such as
1. Destructible Towers (ie objectives)
2. Obvious "lanes"
That is where the similarities end for me. You still control multiple units/squads. Even thought the maps are small, there is still an equal emphasis on strategy and tactics, similar to DOW1.
In my opinion, this game mode is the best of both worlds. You are taking the strategy and gameplay similar to DOW1 and mixing it with physical objectives etc. For me, this increases the strategic and tactical depth that will be needed, and on the whole, makes the game SO much more interesting than "capture and hold these points" or "kill everything".
I am actually relieved Relic have tried to deliver something new and relatively original. I find the footage of this game mode quite refreshing.
FusionClock
The power core mode sounds hardly different from annihilation, it just skips mopping up the remains of your opponent. If your opponent is stomping around your base and you can't retaliate, you lost. Hiding farms shouldn't help at that point.
Relic has had turrets protecting the bases too since CoH 1 without much complaint as far as I can recall. Rarely were base attacks a thing though, VP's were the way to go. Even with the removal of VP's, it seems that the focus of the game is still on map control, so I'm pleased with that.
Warhammer 40k has always felt like a setting where a single character can be the deciding factor of planet wide war, so the increased emphasis on heroes seems only fitting, as they have been more centric with every DoW so far.
GABBO90
That wouldnt be too bothersome, but the thing is, this is the main and only mode we are getting at release.
Even a starcraft clone would have been understandeable, but this? Its a big "screw you" to the people who liked their previous games but dislike the simplistic and boring gameplay of mobas. Thats the word, the videos published today look BORING and UGLY
And sega being the producer, we can expect tons of moneygrab dlcs.
vindicarex
I agree.
I think a lot off this criticism is very reactionary. When you get down to it, DoW3 is actually very similar to DoW1 and DoW2, but now taken in the direction of different objectives akin to MOBAs. Resources are still primarily gained through the map, though interestingly tied to an income that progresses as the game continues (like DoW2/CoH - a base income), though only a bit. So there's a good mix of gaining economical advantage through map control, but not one that is overwhelming (unless, of course, you dominate the opponent and take all the points).
I think there's a lot of unforseen strategies waiting to be discovered here. Only time will tell as more and more people gain access to the beta, and later release, and develop high tier play.
The dev's mentioned that they want to make a super solid game, and then see if the community will rally behind it to make it an esports. I agree with this approach as long as they realize this heavily involves careful balancing sourced from relevant feedback. My personal hope is that they will listen to the 1v1, and particularly high skilled players, to help inform this balance process. But in the meantime, they seem to have nailed the basic gameplay and functionality in DoW3's essence engine.
Cursed
How long does an average game last?
Thinking that moba's are simple says enough about your argument. Their objective is simple - destroy X. How you achieve that is anything but.
Same can be said of rts. Simple objective, complex methods of achieving it!
I'm all for this new mode if it makes the game more interesting.
Mr_Ruin
Sooo ... this is a MOBA in which you build your own creeps. Lovely. Preorder went out of the picture. RTS's are either VP or Annihilate victory types, this is a moba. I do not care will it be more ''energetic'' or ''faster-paced'' or whatever. This is a moba with building your own creeps.
Shardex
I fixed some typos in your post.
Katitof
I'm disappointed there is no classic VP control game mode, but I'll wait to play the new one before final judgement will be made from me.
This power core mode is just annihilation with moba fluff, its not bad starter, but what made Relic RTS for me was the objective focus.
Creature
Yeah, thinking about it, it's really not so different from annihilation. If you're in the opponents base crushing their power core, you would have basically won an annihilation victory anyway. Just have less buildings to destroy.
I think where it differs from annihilation has more to do with the shield generators, turrets, and lanes. The base is less vulnerable than in typical annihilation. You aren't going to win by an early rush alone in this set up. For some, that's a positive. Others, a negative. Personally, I've never much enjoyed rushing or being rushed, so it's a positive.
Gorb
vDoW had the following game modes:
Annihilate
Assassinate (very MOBA-like, to be hoenst)
Destroy HQ
Economic Victory
Control Area
Take and Hold, and
Sudden Death
I don't think you're being fair here, and I personally think you're allowing your own preconceived bias on what is considered a "MOBA" to get in the way of analysing the gameplay. A "MOBA where you can build your own creeps" (and bases) could be applied to any RTS, because a MOBA is mainly an RTS with base-building and unit-building removed. That's exactly where the genre came from.
Nautiloidor
I was trying to sound a bit more neutral than that!
I'm not disagreeing with you though
Mr_Ruin
And was built on 3 lanes on which are turrets to slow you down. When you enter inside the base at the end there is a core you need to destroy. You do it with a hero followed by smaller units.
Only difference is you don't have inventory for hero but build a few buildings and build your own creeps.
Nautiloidor
Dont forget about control. Creeps are uncontrollable in MOBAs. With only a few exceptions, you can only control one unit in MOBAs.
I was trying to sound a bit more neutral!
I'm not disagreeing with you thought
Gorb
If you have evidence that all (or even most of the) maps have pre-defined "lanes" that cannot be bypassed or altered at all, it would be good to discuss that instead of exclaiming that it's a MOBA and expecting the truism to hold.
The only similarity is the tower structure, and even then there is only one set of those here in DoW III. There aren't several layers, there aren't predefined melee and ranged barracks that control (uncontrollable) creep spawns, and your core base structure isn't defended by yet another set of turret-towers. There isn't a "spawn" area protected by a hyperbeam of flaming doom, and the only cooldowns exist on unit abilities, there are no restrictions on the units you can build barring tech levels and resources. Typical for an RTS.
Cursed
So if creeps were controllable in a moba would that make it an rts by your logic mr_ruin?
Idk, i haven't played it but it sounds like a good way of stopping the games being over too early, and possibly allowing for better comeback mechanics.
I want to try it to say for sure, but even with it in, there's no reason at all we couldn't end up with a VP type game too a few weeks/months down the line.
If the game play is fun and the unit control smooth and rewarding, you can build whatever game objectives you want from it.
Nautiloidor
Fair enough
Destroy the base/ kill commander is a game mode present in many RTSs.
This is present in many RTSs.
Pretty crucial differences. Including the fact you control the "creeps". Creeps is also a bad word here as line units in DOW play a hugely bigger part in the game than creeps do in MOBAs.
Nautiloidor
Ffs, why do my comments keep being deleted!?
@Gorb ?
EDIT: Just tried to repost it and a message flashed saying "post will the visible when approved" or something like that...
Gorb
Entirely possible you might have tripped the spam filter . . . somehow. Will forward the issue.
Bersercker
I've had this too several times but was unable to reproduce it. It seems it usually happens when i'm trying to edit my post several times in a short amount of time.
Nautiloidor
Ah, that seems likely, I'll take more care in future, thanks!
Anyway, my comment said pretty much what Gorb and Cursed said!
Bersercker
About comeback mechanics. It seems that this is the main reason for the towers in mobas so it would be fair to assume that it is also why Relic decided to make a similar mode in dow3.
I'm not sure it'll work all that well in this aspect though, and definitely will be worse than victory points. Like if you lost a lot of units they don't just resurrect near the fontain in a minute, they'll stay dead. So its not like that additional minute of time that these turrets give would matter all that much. Also the enemy will probably immediately capitalise on this and destroy a few towers\generators(and also will get bonus resources), and maybe even the power core. Whereas in VP game the winning player couldn't do this (unless he killed like the whole army and attacked the base directly) because he still needed VP's to tick.
Incitatus
Hmm I can get behind there only being one game mode, but what has me going eh is the maps.
Looking at the 3 or 4 maps for multiplayer we have seen they all look very tight and restrictive. I don't see how eldar are meant to be able to use the hit and run tactics that we have been told about in regards to their webway gates. Just seems to easy for the enemy to lock down there side of the map. Skimmers should still have a fun time with the hugely cut up maps.
Would be cool to see a city map where each player starts in opposite corners say and the point is entered out from the edge of the map to allow for more attack paths then you can have the power cores "behind" the turrets so you can either attack them head on or flank past them to their power source. This would make for a lot more options than it looks like we currently have where its attack both the base and the ancient. This would give all the armies more option and I feel open the game right up.
The reduction in the number of control points is a little annoying as well but there does still appear to be enough so that we have the potential to be fighting across the whole map at once.
The idea that they are going to patch in new maps and modes inside of weeks is silly, relic have shown on every game they have released they have been slow to release new anything that the community has asked for. CoH2 is a perfect example of this took them weeks alone to get a us new maps and what well over 6 months to release a map editor (cant remember the exact time). With the way they have built the game around this mode it appears just stripping out the buildings will destroy the games economy if those buildings generate income for you.
Mr_Ruin
Yes. In a sense it would be a RTS if you had units to control.
Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me if something looks like a duck it usually is a duck, and this looks like a moba to me. I am not using it in a pejorative term, there is a lot of people who love moba's, I am not one of them but ok. Therefore there will probably people who like this way of playing, but I believe I am not among them.
What irks me that there was no mention about this mode of play until it was shown in beta. Which is quite strange.
Incitatus
Hmm it erks me as well they have held this back for so long as well.
It's almost like they knew the general community would at best have a mixed response to this.
PhilthyPhilPhD
This is being used like VPs in a sense, because they're basically trying to use it as another pacing mechanic. I think this is mostly to guarantee that games aren't A. actually over at the 5 minute mark. and B. Essentially over at the 5 minute mark, while the players are stuck playing for another 20 minutes because that's how long it will take to end a match. Their goal seems to be to allow a comeback mechanic that makes early game fights less punishing and more frequent. Likewise they seem to be aiming at escalating the resource income in such a way that players would essentially have to purposefully not fight in order for a game to go on past a certain point. If you have resources you're going to have units, and if you have units you're going to fight. Whereas in VPs you could have a stalemate over the middle flag and it could stay decapped for a while and thus no one makes progress, this is a matter of taking hitpoints off buildings, if you're attacking them you're making progress.
Likewise if you're attacking these buildings and they can't be repaired you're pushing yourself closer to victory than you would in annihilate. In annihilation you could potentially play a game of hide the building or something equally annoying. Also players could have a huge clash destroy some of each others buildings and then rebuild and repeat ad infinitum. These buildings instead have finite hitpoints. If you make a big push and nearly destroy it, you're not going to go back and find that it's full repaired. Thus you know you're one more push or clever trick away from finishing the game. Whereas in VPs or Annihilation this doesn't necessarily mean the game is that much closer to ending.
This is Relic's way of pacing out game length. This also gives them more control of balance and gameflow since they can tweak these aspects of the buildings or resource flow to a more fun level based on player feedback. The only real question is how much this will constrain the meta, but assuming there's lots of unit and doctrine/ability diversity this can be what keeps the game interesting. I'm optimistic.
That said, I still think Relic should include an Annihilation mode with the following caveats. 1. This is not a matchmaking mode, if you want to use matchmaking you need to search power core. 2. It's in customs only. 3. They don't actually bother making any other balance tweaks to units or resources. 4. The only change to the map is removing the power cores and related buildings from the map.
Assuming people are satisfied with that and understand that the game is not balanced with Annihilation in mind, I don't see why Relic shouldn't include that for people who just want to play that mode in their custom games.
GuruSkippy
Allowing comebacks is fine. Not punishing a player too hard for an early loss is fine.
But if the game is artificially extended to last 20 minutes more if one player is way superior to the other, it's not fine. I hope it's not the case.
mauritos
agree relic should import win conditions like in dow1,which had 30 win conditions,anihilate,win by points, timer,
Swiftsabre
I like the mode, but it definitely can be ropey in 1v1. it's very fun for hectic 3v3 games but the lack of rush potential is daunting. I do hope the game will ship with a VP mode or include it soon after launch.