@PrimaGoosa said:
If Relic really wants to dip into the eSports scene, they should first focus on making a solid core experience that is fun to watch, fun to play, and has a high skill ceiling. You want people to enjoy watching top-tier streamers, get motivated to log on and try to play well, and in general realize just how good those streamers are playing to create a sense of awe. Big plays, incredible micro, great opponent reads. Skills that you can easily watch and understand that something special just happened.
So anyway. Throwing some higher tier CoH2 players at the game could have resulted in some additional interesting feedback, and throwing more higher tier RTS players in general from a variety of games could have also resulted in more detailed/interesting feedback. But the beta gave way to a whole truckload of feedback already, and they can only consume so much at a time.
That's just my take. If you want an eSports scene, you're going to need patience.
Really great post, and I agree with you. I think Relic could have benefited greatly in all areas (art/sound direction, design, balance) if they got pro players and casters involved earlier. Of course, we don't know the full story, but back when I did stuff with Relic I was in there months and months before.
I agree, and it definitely would have had to be far earlier than roughly a month before release. Interesting to hear how early you were brought in before. I wonder if inControl and whatever posse he is with these days were more deeply involved in internal testing or what have you.
Also, I laughed at the idea of the NDA lifting, and you pop up on the forum and say "Gotcha, I've been involved this whole time!", and everyone chuckles and applauds like a live studio audience.
The game has to be fun for all the players, and not just the top players. I'm pretty sure most of the audience for esport games comes from the playerbase of that game, people would not get involved in watching a game they didn't enjoy themselves. Could be that this is where some aspects of the game, that pro players themselves don't like, kick in (looking at you progression system).
That's a good point to add. It's possible to gather up an audience of people who like to watch but don't necessarily like to play, but if you are starting from scratch with a new game, the odds of that happening are incredibly low. Lower skilled players are going to need to enjoy playing the game as well, and I'll concede that casual elements like progression systems might incentivize them to enjoy themselves.
However, I'd also challenge that if they watch some pro streamer use particular doctrines and realize they can't try to mimic those builds, it could also be frustrating. I'm not really sure which direction players would lean towards more. If I had to guess based on nothing more than my gut, I'd say you'd be correct in that casual progression-based elements would draw more people than they would push away, but the data would be interesting.
The game has to be fun for all the players, and not just the top players. I'm pretty sure most of the audience for esport games comes from the playerbase of that game, people would not get involved in watching a game they didn't enjoy themselves. Could be that this is where some aspects of the game, that pro players themselves don't like, kick in (looking at you progression system).
This is also a great point and I'll expand on this shortly. In short, there's a lot of benefits for top-down feedback from pro players because often times, their suggestions do not hamper the enjoyment of casual players. In fact, casual players hardly notice them.
I will add another post shortly about my experiences working with developers in the past and present especially in the realm of eSports.
Sorry, someone complsining that he dont like an effect and ignoring ( or dont recognising) the advantages for Gameplay in my eyes not valid for a depher analysis of Gameplay.
Was not you the one who was banned in the battlefleet gothic forums? I think i remember you.
@Larkis said:
Sorry, someone complsining that he dont like an effect and ignoring ( or dont recognising) the advantages for Gameplay in my eyes not valid for a depher analysis of Gameplay.
Was not you the one who was banned in the battlefleet gothic forums? I think i remember you.
Yeah, it was. They banned me for asking some of the "Elite" testers what the hell they were actually testing to deliver instant-kill Pulsars and thinking that was good for gameplay. I called out nearly every major gameplay issue and posted it on the forums stating that they needed to address these issues before it kills MP.
Also, I remember your name as well. Weren't you part of Tindalos' lapdog party thinking that they were great developers and praising them for every little thing, regardless of whether or not the game was horrendously balanced? Yeah, you're right, we do have nothing to talk about.
God, Relic have their reasons if they haven't reached pr0 players, and IF they didn't. Maybe they have reached some, and we don't know.
There is plenty of reasons I can think of.
It's their game, their vision.
Deal with it. They know better than us how to make a game.
If they chose to not reach pr0s, it's fine !
And if they chose to reach them, it's fine too !
Do not take it personally.
I'm more annoyed by the lack of good quality MP videos, than supposed lack of pr0 player inclusivity.
But seriously, Luvnest has shown a lack of interest in DoW3, Hans will probably do poorly at it (just a random guess seeing how he's played SC2) so the Pro CoH2 scene should sit this one out, you aren't entitled to anything. Many of them won't make the transition to the game because it's completely different. When the open beta hits many will just go back to CoH.
Also few names i recognize here from my DoW2 days, GuruSkippy, ParanoidKami, these guys should be 100% getting invites for sticking with DoW2 in my opinion.
@Larkis said:
Sorry, someone complsining that he dont like an effect and ignoring ( or dont recognising) the advantages for Gameplay in my eyes not valid for a depher analysis of Gameplay.
Was not you the one who was banned in the battlefleet gothic forums? I think i remember you.
Yeah, it was. They banned me for asking some of the "Elite" testers what the hell they were actually testing to deliver instant-kill Pulsars and thinking that was good for gameplay. I called out nearly every major gameplay issue and posted it on the forums stating that they needed to address these issues before it kills MP.
Also, I remember your name as well. Weren't you part of Tindalos' lapdog party thinking that they were great developers and praising them for every little thing, regardless of whether or not the game was horrendously balanced? Yeah, you're right, we do have nothing to talk about.
Yeah its the same as hier. You think your opinion is a fact and everybody should accept that, not able to understand how gamemechanismen work.
Hope you will not also banned here, but here you look much more friendly so lets hope.
Battlefleet Gothic had in Multiplayer a lot other problems, the eldar with there Pulsars was not.
Your only problem is, that you dont like it und you cant accept that your opinion ist just that, a opinion.
I know i'm a little troll and all, but guys, we are talking about DOW3 here, bringing old story from another videogame/franchise (and ultimately another community) is wrong on so many levels and only help stir the drama-pot, re-opening the wounds and starting new "old" drama for this game to come isn't the brightest idea we can have...
Spoiler alert, there will be unbalance, meta-abuse, forum shitpost, personnal attack and all a pvp focused videogame can offer so bringing the old stories to the mix will just make the whole soup even more toxic to digest and may in the end drive away people from it because "they are too much of assholes"
As a DOW1 player that didn't liked DOW2 i waited for DOW3 for years, i may like it or may not, but i'm surely not trying to push an agenda about it because it's not "what i precisly wanted", so voice your complains guys, as much as i'm going to do, but ++heresy redacted++ me sideways if i'm going to let entitled schmuck play the "Eldars" game around that's for sure.
@Larkis said:
Sorry, someone complsining that he dont like an effect and ignoring ( or dont recognising) the advantages for Gameplay in my eyes not valid for a depher analysis of Gameplay.
Was not you the one who was banned in the battlefleet gothic forums? I think i remember you.
Yeah, it was. They banned me for asking some of the "Elite" testers what the hell they were actually testing to deliver instant-kill Pulsars and thinking that was good for gameplay. I called out nearly every major gameplay issue and posted it on the forums stating that they needed to address these issues before it kills MP.
Also, I remember your name as well. Weren't you part of Tindalos' lapdog party thinking that they were great developers and praising them for every little thing, regardless of whether or not the game was horrendously balanced? Yeah, you're right, we do have nothing to talk about.
Yeah its the same as hier. You think your opinion is a fact and everybody should accept that, not able to understand how gamemechanismen work.
Hope you will not also banned here, but here you look much more friendly so lets hope.
Battlefleet Gothic had in Multiplayer a lot other problems, the eldar with there Pulsars was not.
Your only problem is, that you dont like it und you cant accept that your opinion ist just that, a opinion.
Say what you want mate, but Battlefleet Gothic is a PRIME example of what happens when the developers do not listen to top player feedback and insist on going with their own "vision".
For everyone else, a little context:
It's also that I do not think my opinion is fact: I've played the game competitively at very high-levels. I've posted video evidence and statistical facts presenting why certain abilities are completely broken, poorly designed and leads to a negative player experience. I did this repeatedly, during multiple BETA phases, and I did this for weeks AFTER release. I posted on the forums, on Twitch, and even tried reaching out directly to their CM and to the developers themselves with fully-written documents. They did not listen, instead, they listened to people like you while labeling themselves as "elite testers".
What is the ultimate result?
The game has been out for less than a year and it's completely dead.
The game has 150 average players on Steam charts.
Look at their forums and on the steam forums: "The game is dead", "Developers don't care about the game".
You can actually see the disaster roll out in months if you look at the time I started posting balance concerns, to the time where more casual players started complaining about the game, to the time the game died entirely.
The last point there is critical, because this shows you the speed at which top players can analyze a game, break it down factually and present it as actionable feedback. However, if this feedback is ignored, you're going to see some serious problems within the community. It takes months for casual players to start noticing these issues, or in the worst cases, they can't see it at all.
I might as well be a Farseer since I casted these runes of doom wayyyy before they even came to frutition. So yes, I got banned for going all Eldrad Ultran on their forums (Fracture of Biel-tan reference) and trying to get more info on what the hell is going on. Pardon me for trying to make last more than a year. They had something really special there, and I had definite emotional ties to the game because I grew up on 40K, RTS and BFG. But alas, they wanted to do their own thing and smashed their community into the ground.
Thank God I have a long-standing history with Relic developers and their games, and I can vouch for their integrity to actively improve their game as times change. They DO listen to top-player feedback and they understand the value of balancing their games for competitive play. On the contrary, I will NEVER buy a Tindalos game ever again.
@GuruSkippy said:
God, Relic have their reasons if they haven't reached pr0 players, and IF they didn't. Maybe they have reached some, and we don't know.
There is plenty of reasons I can think of.
It's their game, their vision.
Deal with it. They know better than us how to make a game.
If they chose to not reach pr0s, it's fine !
And if they chose to reach them, it's fine too !
Do not take it personally.
I'm more annoyed by the lack of good quality MP videos, than supposed lack of pr0 player inclusivity.
Its as if the lack of pros also means the lack of content creators (most of the pros are streamers & content creators).
I agree with you but i'm affraid this isn't the only decisive vectors of a game succes or not, it's way more complicated than that, in addition of what you already listed i would like to add :
Peole actualy liking the game/setup/art style
Optimisation of the game (no one want something like AOC again)
Quality of servers : lag, drop, etc... (anyone who played Warhammer Online on Europe have nightmare just thinking about "GOA")
What others game are being release in the same window of time (example : Battleborn vs Overwatch or Titanfall 2 vs Battlefield 1+ COD:IW)
I agree with you but i'm affraid this isn't the only decisive vectors of a game succes or not, it's way more complicated than that, in addition of what you already listed i would like to add :
Peole actualy liking the game/setup/art style
Optimisation of the game (no one want something like AOC again)
Quality of servers : lag, drop, etc... (anyone who played Warhammer Online on Europe have nightmare just thinking about "GOA")
What others game are being release in the same window of time (example : Battleborn vs Overwatch or Titanfall 2 vs Battlefield 1+ COD:IW)
Absolutely. The art, style, lore and SP experience, as well as the production value, bugs, response time from the dev team. I'm just saying that having top-down feedback is never a bad thing!
@shadowwada said:
Its as if the lack of pros also means the lack of content creators (most of the pros are streamers & content creators).
Lack of good quality content right now is because NDA. Good players respected it.
And content creator or streamer does not necessarily mean pr0.
That's a problem I have with a lot of streamers or content creators, a lot of them think they are pr0s, when they are just good.
@shadowwada said:
Its as if the lack of pros also means the lack of content creators (most of the pros are streamers & content creators).
Lack of good quality content right now is because NDA. Good players respected it.
And content creator or streamer does not necessarily mean pr0.
That's a problem I have with a lot of streamers or content creators, a lot of them think they are pr0s, when they are just good.
I think what he's saying is that if there's no NDA and a lot more people got keys, especially good players, then there will be more content overall.
But Relic don't want a lot of content if casters are going to focus on bugs and problems. I think they want a really polished product first, THEN they will want a lot of content.
It's the same as the way they have approached journalists, being careful to show them bits that are working really well and are well polished.
@KanKrusha said:
But Relic don't want a lot of content if casters are going to focus on bugs and problems. I think they want a really polished product first, THEN they will want a lot of content.
It's the same as the way they have approached journalists, being careful to show them bits that are working really well and are well polished.
It's true, but having worked in the games industry for years, I can speak confidently when I say that these "polished" builds as you say, can also be supplied to pro-level players.
It all depends on what they want to showcase at the end of the day. Unfortunately for us, top-player gameplay wasn't one of their directives
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Comments
PrimaGoosa
I agree, and it definitely would have had to be far earlier than roughly a month before release. Interesting to hear how early you were brought in before. I wonder if inControl and whatever posse he is with these days were more deeply involved in internal testing or what have you.
Also, I laughed at the idea of the NDA lifting, and you pop up on the forum and say "Gotcha, I've been involved this whole time!", and everyone chuckles and applauds like a live studio audience.
That's a good point to add. It's possible to gather up an audience of people who like to watch but don't necessarily like to play, but if you are starting from scratch with a new game, the odds of that happening are incredibly low. Lower skilled players are going to need to enjoy playing the game as well, and I'll concede that casual elements like progression systems might incentivize them to enjoy themselves.
However, I'd also challenge that if they watch some pro streamer use particular doctrines and realize they can't try to mimic those builds, it could also be frustrating. I'm not really sure which direction players would lean towards more. If I had to guess based on nothing more than my gut, I'd say you'd be correct in that casual progression-based elements would draw more people than they would push away, but the data would be interesting.
HERO
This is also a great point and I'll expand on this shortly. In short, there's a lot of benefits for top-down feedback from pro players because often times, their suggestions do not hamper the enjoyment of casual players. In fact, casual players hardly notice them.
I will add another post shortly about my experiences working with developers in the past and present especially in the realm of eSports.
Larkis
Sorry, someone complsining that he dont like an effect and ignoring ( or dont recognising) the advantages for Gameplay in my eyes not valid for a depher analysis of Gameplay.
Was not you the one who was banned in the battlefleet gothic forums? I think i remember you.
HERO
Yeah, it was. They banned me for asking some of the "Elite" testers what the hell they were actually testing to deliver instant-kill Pulsars and thinking that was good for gameplay. I called out nearly every major gameplay issue and posted it on the forums stating that they needed to address these issues before it kills MP.
I wonder how they're enjoying their ~150 playerpool now:
http://steamcharts.com/app/363680
Also, I remember your name as well. Weren't you part of Tindalos' lapdog party thinking that they were great developers and praising them for every little thing, regardless of whether or not the game was horrendously balanced? Yeah, you're right, we do have nothing to talk about.
GuruSkippy
God, Relic have their reasons if they haven't reached pr0 players, and IF they didn't. Maybe they have reached some, and we don't know.
There is plenty of reasons I can think of.
It's their game, their vision.
Deal with it. They know better than us how to make a game.
If they chose to not reach pr0s, it's fine !
And if they chose to reach them, it's fine too !
Do not take it personally.
I'm more annoyed by the lack of good quality MP videos, than supposed lack of pr0 player inclusivity.
HERO
Literally mind blown.
Crazyman64335
Hard to believe they didn't invite you Wada
But seriously, Luvnest has shown a lack of interest in DoW3, Hans will probably do poorly at it (just a random guess seeing how he's played SC2) so the Pro CoH2 scene should sit this one out, you aren't entitled to anything. Many of them won't make the transition to the game because it's completely different. When the open beta hits many will just go back to CoH.
Also few names i recognize here from my DoW2 days, GuruSkippy, ParanoidKami, these guys should be 100% getting invites for sticking with DoW2 in my opinion.
Larkis
Yeah its the same as hier. You think your opinion is a fact and everybody should accept that, not able to understand how gamemechanismen work.
Hope you will not also banned here, but here you look much more friendly so lets hope.
Battlefleet Gothic had in Multiplayer a lot other problems, the eldar with there Pulsars was not.
Your only problem is, that you dont like it und you cant accept that your opinion ist just that, a opinion.
Warpten
I know i'm a little troll and all, but guys, we are talking about DOW3 here, bringing old story from another videogame/franchise (and ultimately another community) is wrong on so many levels and only help stir the drama-pot, re-opening the wounds and starting new "old" drama for this game to come isn't the brightest idea we can have...
Spoiler alert, there will be unbalance, meta-abuse, forum shitpost, personnal attack and all a pvp focused videogame can offer so bringing the old stories to the mix will just make the whole soup even more toxic to digest and may in the end drive away people from it because "they are too much of assholes"
As a DOW1 player that didn't liked DOW2 i waited for DOW3 for years, i may like it or may not, but i'm surely not trying to push an agenda about it because it's not "what i precisly wanted", so voice your complains guys, as much as i'm going to do, but ++heresy redacted++ me sideways if i'm going to let entitled schmuck play the "Eldars" game around that's for sure.
HERO
Say what you want mate, but Battlefleet Gothic is a PRIME example of what happens when the developers do not listen to top player feedback and insist on going with their own "vision".
For everyone else, a little context:
It's also that I do not think my opinion is fact: I've played the game competitively at very high-levels. I've posted video evidence and statistical facts presenting why certain abilities are completely broken, poorly designed and leads to a negative player experience. I did this repeatedly, during multiple BETA phases, and I did this for weeks AFTER release. I posted on the forums, on Twitch, and even tried reaching out directly to their CM and to the developers themselves with fully-written documents. They did not listen, instead, they listened to people like you while labeling themselves as "elite testers".
What is the ultimate result?
The last point there is critical, because this shows you the speed at which top players can analyze a game, break it down factually and present it as actionable feedback. However, if this feedback is ignored, you're going to see some serious problems within the community. It takes months for casual players to start noticing these issues, or in the worst cases, they can't see it at all.
I might as well be a Farseer since I casted these runes of doom wayyyy before they even came to frutition. So yes, I got banned for going all Eldrad Ultran on their forums (Fracture of Biel-tan reference) and trying to get more info on what the hell is going on. Pardon me for trying to make last more than a year. They had something really special there, and I had definite emotional ties to the game because I grew up on 40K, RTS and BFG. But alas, they wanted to do their own thing and smashed their community into the ground.
Thank God I have a long-standing history with Relic developers and their games, and I can vouch for their integrity to actively improve their game as times change. They DO listen to top-player feedback and they understand the value of balancing their games for competitive play. On the contrary, I will NEVER buy a Tindalos game ever again.
shadowwada
Its as if the lack of pros also means the lack of content creators (most of the pros are streamers & content creators).
Warpten
@HERO
I agree with you but i'm affraid this isn't the only decisive vectors of a game succes or not, it's way more complicated than that, in addition of what you already listed i would like to add :
wongtp
actually i dont see why not? but only for coh players with consistent good video content/streams.
its a closed beta key, it costs almost nothing to relic for the insane amount of potential publicity, why did they not do that is beyond me however.
HERO
Absolutely. The art, style, lore and SP experience, as well as the production value, bugs, response time from the dev team. I'm just saying that having top-down feedback is never a bad thing!
GuruSkippy
Lack of good quality content right now is because NDA. Good players respected it.
And content creator or streamer does not necessarily mean pr0.
That's a problem I have with a lot of streamers or content creators, a lot of them think they are pr0s, when they are just good.
HERO
I think what he's saying is that if there's no NDA and a lot more people got keys, especially good players, then there will be more content overall.
KanKrusha
But Relic don't want a lot of content if casters are going to focus on bugs and problems. I think they want a really polished product first, THEN they will want a lot of content.
It's the same as the way they have approached journalists, being careful to show them bits that are working really well and are well polished.
HERO
It's true, but having worked in the games industry for years, I can speak confidently when I say that these "polished" builds as you say, can also be supplied to pro-level players.
It all depends on what they want to showcase at the end of the day. Unfortunately for us, top-player gameplay wasn't one of their directives